Total Posts:18|Showing Posts:1-18

Maydole's second theorem

 Posts: 2,109 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 7:27:04 PMPosted: 6 years agoSo I was reading up on the Modal Perfection Argument for the Existence of a Supreme Being and I ran across the three theorems.Theorem 1: If it's possible than p and q are true, then p is possible and q is possibleTheorem 2: If it's possible that p is not possible, then p is not possibleTheorem 3: If it's possible that there exists an x that is an F, then there exists an x so that it's possible that x is an F.From:http://rfforum.websitetoolbox.com...Now, although it's true that I have no real education on modal logic, I just can't see how theorem 2 would hold up. If it's possible that something's impossible, then by golly, it is without a doubt impossible. Does not compute to me. I assume I'm missing something here.Also, I'm not trying to start a forum debate. I'm honestly looking for an answer here, not trying to "attack" the argument or anything of the sort. Thanks.
 Posts: 7,891 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 8:15:45 PMPosted: 6 years agotheorem 2 is basically axiom s5 in modal logic. sorry, can't get into much detail right now....At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote: BLACK LIVES MATTER!
 Posts: 4,194 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 8:34:23 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 7:27:04 PM, Denote wrote:So I was reading up on the Modal Perfection Argument for the Existence of a Supreme Being and I ran across the three theorems.Theorem 1: If it's possible than p and q are true, then p is possible and q is possibleTheorem 2: If it's possible that p is not possible, then p is not possibleTheorem 3: If it's possible that there exists an x that is an F, then there exists an x so that it's possible that x is an F.From:http://rfforum.websitetoolbox.com...Now, although it's true that I have no real education on modal logic, I just can't see how theorem 2 would hold up. If it's possible that something's impossible, then by golly, it is without a doubt impossible. Does not compute to me. I assume I'm missing something here.Also, I'm not trying to start a forum debate. I'm honestly looking for an answer here, not trying to "attack" the argument or anything of the sort. Thanks.It's just the contrapositive of the statement "if p is possible, then it's impossible that p is not possible." Sounds less controversial when you state it that way, but it means the same thing.Omar comin' yo https://www.youtube.com...
 Posts: 7,102 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 8:42:16 PMPosted: 6 years agoReality is absolute. Doubt means that you don't have proof. Without proof, it's all in your head.It's really a fundamental law to accompany Occam's razor.These modalities are contingent on knowing all other possible characteristics of an instance, object, or idea. Otherwise, it is impossible to irrevocably determine the possible impossibility of something.Since humanity is yet to understand everything about anything, those rules are purely theoretical and only apply to arguments rather than the attainment of new knowledge.
 Posts: 19,297 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 9:56:49 PMPosted: 6 years agoTheorem 3: If it's possible that there exists an x that is an F, then there exists an x so that it's possible that x is an F.It is sufficient that it is possible that there exists an x.What the heck makes a being supreme anyway?It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
 Posts: 4,194 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 10:31:11 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 9:56:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:What the heck makes a being supreme anyway?The ability to understand Maydole's ontological argument.Omar comin' yo https://www.youtube.com...
 Posts: 12,238 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 10:42:09 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 7:27:04 PM, Denote wrote:Theorem 2: If it's possible that p is not possible, then p is not possibleAm I missing something here, or is this blatantly and obviously false?Old Right paleo-libertarian John Birch Society constitutionalist; to the far right of the national socialist Alt-Right cucks "We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic." -- Murray Rothbard "The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended." -- Frederic Bastiat
 Posts: 7,891 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 10:55:17 PMPosted: 6 years agoyou're miaaing something. basically, the theorem is saying is that if in some possible world p (say 2 +2 = 5) is not possible (impossible or necessarily false) then p is necessarily false in all possible worlds - including the actual one.At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote: BLACK LIVES MATTER!
 Posts: 4,194 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 10:56:29 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 10:42:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:At 10/26/2010 7:27:04 PM, Denote wrote:Theorem 2: If it's possible that p is not possible, then p is not possibleAm I missing something here, or is this blatantly and obviously false?I already explained it. If-then statements can always be converted to contrapositive form. If you restate it as "if p is possible, then it's impossible that p is not possible" it makes a lot more sense.Omar comin' yo https://www.youtube.com...
 Posts: 12,238 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 11:06:34 PMPosted: 6 years ago@pcp and KenyonThat's not a rewording or restatement of the premise. Those are completely different claims.Old Right paleo-libertarian John Birch Society constitutionalist; to the far right of the national socialist Alt-Right cucks "We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic." -- Murray Rothbard "The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended." -- Frederic Bastiat
 Posts: 4,194 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 11:15:48 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 11:06:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:@pcp and KenyonThat's not a rewording or restatement of the premise. Those are completely different claims.If Socrates is a man, then he is a mortal.Converse: If Socrates is a mortal, then he is a man.Inverse: If Socrates is not a man, then he is not a mortal.Contrapositive: If Socrates is not a mortal, then he is not a man.The inverse and the converse are always logically equivalent to eachother, but can't be inferred from the conditional. The contrapositive is always equivalent and can be inferred from the conditional.Omar comin' yo https://www.youtube.com...
 Posts: 1,239 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/26/2010 11:53:42 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 11:06:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:@pcp and KenyonThat's not a rewording or restatement of the premise. Those are completely different claims.Geo, these two books helped me quite a bit when I started studying logic.1. Logic and Philosophy: A Modern Introduction (Tenth Edition) - Alan Hausman2. A Profile of Mathematical Logic - Howard DelongIf I think I've ever made a really dumb argument (or I think someone else has), I go back and consult them. Our intuitive sense of what is logical or logical isn't always accurate, especially when you're dealing with modal logic or quantum logic.Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration. "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
 Posts: 12,238 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/27/2010 12:05:04 AMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 11:53:42 PM, Freeman wrote:At 10/26/2010 11:06:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:@pcp and KenyonThat's not a rewording or restatement of the premise. Those are completely different claims.Geo, these two books helped me quite a bit when I started studying logic.1. Logic and Philosophy: A Modern Introduction (Tenth Edition) - Alan Hausman2. A Profile of Mathematical Logic - Howard DelongIf I think I've ever made a really dumb argument (or I think someone else has), I go back and consult them.How is this relevant?Our intuitive sense of what is logical or logical isn't always accurate,I didn't use intuition. In Theorem 2, the premise presented did not necessitate the conclusion. Just because it's possible for something to be "not possible," does not mean it MUST be "not possible."Rephrasing, restating, or even JKenyon's explanation of "Converse," "Contrapositive," etc. (which I understand), does not change that fact.especially when you're dealing with modal logic or quantum logic.I am familiar with modal logic (even the basic rules of modal logic demonstrate that Theorem 2 is false), not quite familiar with quantum logic.Old Right paleo-libertarian John Birch Society constitutionalist; to the far right of the national socialist Alt-Right cucks "We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic." -- Murray Rothbard "The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended." -- Frederic Bastiat
 Posts: 7,891 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/27/2010 6:22:18 AMPosted: 6 years agoNo offense, but if you think the basic rules of modal logic prove theroem 2 false then you don't know modal logic.Think - "not possibly p" means that p does not obtain in ANY possible world. All possible worlds exhaust every single possibility (naturally) if p does NOT obtain in any possible world then it is not a possibility e.g. impossible. If something is not possible in any possible world then it is not possible in the actual world. Necessity doesn't vary over possible worlds.At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote: BLACK LIVES MATTER!
 Posts: 10,806 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 10/27/2010 6:42:39 AMPosted: 6 years agoAt 10/26/2010 10:42:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:At 10/26/2010 7:27:04 PM, Denote wrote:Theorem 2: If it's possible that p is not possible, then p is not possibleAm I missing something here, or is this blatantly and obviously false?I agree.I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
 Posts: 11,793 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/1/2010 4:34:59 PMPosted: 5 years agoAt 10/26/2010 10:55:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:you're miaaing something. basically, the theorem is saying is that if in some possible world p (say 2 +2 = 5) is not possible (impossible or necessarily false) then p is necessarily false in all possible worlds - including the actual one.and do you think that follows?signature
 Posts: 7,891 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/1/2010 4:51:25 PMPosted: 5 years agoI know it follows given s5.At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote: BLACK LIVES MATTER!
 Posts: 11,793 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/1/2010 5:06:58 PMPosted: 5 years agos5? doesn't follow for me.signature