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Is religiosity a mental illness?

Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?
Torton
Posts: 988
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1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.
Torton
Posts: 988
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1/28/2016 9:13:58 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.

Except, just like in the "Is liberalism a mental illness" thread, this is designed to provoke, rather than to legitimately discuss anything.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?
No, Redford; religiosity is a mental state; not a psychiatric condition. Religious experiences are inducable in many people -- including people of no religious adherence. See for example the linked psych experiment by British psych/stage illusionist Derren Brown.

Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 9:32:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:13:58 PM, Torton wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.

Except, just like in the "Is liberalism a mental illness" thread, this is designed to provoke, rather than to legitimately discuss anything.

No, not at all. If people feel provoked by me asking a question of their beliefs, then that is their subjective problem.

Religion cannot be compared to liberalism, one tells you to speak to an invisible man and encourages you to hear voices in your head and interpret them as being a deity liaising with you.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 9:37:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?
No, Redford; religiosity is a mental state; not a psychiatric condition. Religious experiences are inducable in many people -- including people of no religious adherence. See for example the linked psych experiment by British psych/stage illusionist Derren Brown.



Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Ok thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand how so many religious people claim to hear voices in their head though. I guess it more of a delusion, but can delusions on a grand scale not be equivalent to a mental disorder?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,003
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1/28/2016 9:52:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

The bible lacks concept of mental illness.
Read about it here.
http://www.debate.org...

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Q, Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?

A, Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://fivethirtyeight.com...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 9:54:16 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:37:24 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Ok thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand how so many religious people claim to hear voices in their head though. I guess it more of a delusion, but can delusions on a grand scale not be equivalent to a mental disorder?

Medically, the issue is whether a person's thinking is affecting their welfare and ability to function, and you can function quite well while carrying delusions around.

In ancient times, people routinely believed in angels, demons, witches, fairies, spirits, wonders and monsters and would routinely report seeing them. But in ancient times there was little sense of objectivity... what your mind perceived, you saw, and what you saw was generally considered real. Ontology (what exists) and epistemology (how truth is tested) were very different from the kinds of ideas we have now. In many ancient cultures, three reputable testimonies to anything could make it true. We don't fully realise how much higher science has set the bar today, and how atypical that is historically.

But when you think about it, most people talk to themselves in their heads. They rehearse and fantasise encounters and scenes. It's quite a small step to go from playing multiple voices in your head to becoming convinced that one voice is coming from somewhere else.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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1/28/2016 9:55:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

It can probably be argued that folks with mental disorders can focus on religion or they might be inclined towards religiosity to justify or explain the voices/hallucinations they experience as a result.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 10:02:27 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:54:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:37:24 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Ok thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand how so many religious people claim to hear voices in their head though. I guess it more of a delusion, but can delusions on a grand scale not be equivalent to a mental disorder?

Medically, the issue is whether a person's thinking is affecting their welfare and ability to function, and you can function quite well while carrying delusions around.

In ancient times, people routinely believed in angels, demons, witches, fairies, spirits, wonders and monsters and would routinely report seeing them. But in ancient times there was little sense of objectivity... what your mind perceived, you saw, and what you saw was generally considered real. Ontology (what exists) and epistemology (how truth is tested) were very different from the kinds of ideas we have now. In many ancient cultures, three reputable testimonies to anything could make it true. We don't fully realise how much higher science has set the bar today, and how atypical that is historically.

But when you think about it, most people talk to themselves in their heads. They rehearse and fantasise encounters and scenes. It's quite a small step to go from playing multiple voices in your head to becoming convinced that one voice is coming from somewhere else.

Well if somebody believed they could jump off a bridge because God won't let them die then that definitely affects their welfare. Not to mention religious terrorists such as suicide bombers who's beliefs directly contribute to the persons willingness to put themself into life thresting situations.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 10:04:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:55:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

It can probably be argued that folks with mental disorders can focus on religion or they might be inclined towards religiosity to justify or explain the voices/hallucinations they experience as a result.

I was thinking along those lines. I wonder if there is a positive correlation between mental disorders and religiosity....
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/28/2016 10:07:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?
No, Redford; religiosity is a mental state; not a psychiatric condition. Religious experiences are inducable in many people -- including people of no religious adherence. See for example the linked psych experiment by British psych/stage illusionist Derren Brown.



Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Well said
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 10:11:58 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:07:02 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?
No, Redford; religiosity is a mental state; not a psychiatric condition. Religious experiences are inducable in many people -- including people of no religious adherence. See for example the linked psych experiment by British psych/stage illusionist Derren Brown. [https://www.youtube.com...]

Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Well said

Thanks, Mhykiel. Much appreciated. :)
Sophisto
Posts: 121
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1/28/2016 10:12:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:52:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

The bible lacks concept of mental illness.
Read about it here.
http://www.debate.org...

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Q, Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?

A, Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://fivethirtyeight.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sophisto: Compelling, but if you think Jesus isn't going to be scrutinizing the legitimacy of these men's salvation, you lack moral imagination. Judgment Day would clarify everything in conjunction with eligibility for the Rapture. Remember, if you don't impress Jesus enough to be Raptured, you are not likely to make it to eternity with Jesus. Not that I am loyal, but I am superior at reading between the lines and filling in the gaps with my "heresy". Humoring the framework of Jesus' little game is...amusing.

Fundies may be ill, but I was already congenitally schizophrenic. It preceded my time as a mere Christian. Now that I am evolved, your rules do not apply to me. My rules are more big picture and panoramic. Point being, I am decently competent at logic so that I can compensate with adaptive reasoning far more adequately your average church-goer is capable of achieving. Try me.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 10:19:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:04:37 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:55:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

It can probably be argued that folks with mental disorders can focus on religion or they might be inclined towards religiosity to justify or explain the voices/hallucinations they experience as a result.

I wonder if there is a positive correlation between mental disorders and religiosity....

Ecstatic states can be the result of some mental disorders (e.g. bipolar), and so can hallucinations and psychoses (e.g. schizophrenia and some bipolar states.) If your culture already attaches religious significance to those states, and has imagery to draw on, it's hardly surprising if some people with mental disorders frame them in religious terms.

But you can also see mental disorders invoking religious terms in ways that the religious themselves wouldn't recognise. For example, I've known some schizophrenics and bipolar sufferers who can blur and hybridise ideas from all manner of sources, including religion, science, and popular fiction. So they may call it religion, but it may not be a religion the religious recognise as canon.
janesix
Posts: 3,436
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1/28/2016 10:20:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 9:32:59 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:13:58 PM, Torton wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.

Except, just like in the "Is liberalism a mental illness" thread, this is designed to provoke, rather than to legitimately discuss anything.

No, not at all. If people feel provoked by me asking a question of their beliefs, then that is their subjective problem.

Religion cannot be compared to liberalism, one tells you to speak to an invisible man and encourages you to hear voices in your head and interpret them as being a deity liaising with you.

What percentage of religious people actually claim to hear voices, etc? Probably not that many. I am sure there are plenty of atheists who here voices. Hearing voices has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Sure there are those who claim to hear jesus, god or whatnot, but there are also plenty who hear aliens etc. Nothing to do with religion.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 10:27:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:12:14 PM, Sophisto wrote:
Fundies may be ill, but I was already congenitally schizophrenic. It preceded my time as a mere Christian. Now that I am evolved, your rules do not apply to me. My rules are more big picture and panoramic. Point being, I am decently competent at logic so that I can compensate with adaptive reasoning far more adequately your average church-goer is capable of achieving. Try me.

Sophisto, I often find your questions and ideas interesting, but seldom find your posts themselves coherent enough to be confident discussing them with you. While fragments of your post seem thoughtful and coherent, the posts also often connect ideas intuitively that don't connect explicitly, and I don't think it kind to criticise someone who can't help doing that, nor is it productive to accept such connections in rational discussion without contesting them.

I mention this only to indicate that while you're not always being engaged, you're not being ignored either. :)
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/28/2016 10:31:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:20:42 PM, janesix wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:32:59 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:13:58 PM, Torton wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.

Except, just like in the "Is liberalism a mental illness" thread, this is designed to provoke, rather than to legitimately discuss anything.

No, not at all. If people feel provoked by me asking a question of their beliefs, then that is their subjective problem.

Religion cannot be compared to liberalism, one tells you to speak to an invisible man and encourages you to hear voices in your head and interpret them as being a deity liaising with you.

What percentage of religious people actually claim to hear voices, etc? Probably not that many. I am sure there are plenty of atheists who here voices. Hearing voices has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Sure there are those who claim to hear jesus, god or whatnot, but there are also plenty who hear aliens etc. Nothing to do with religion.

I don't know what percentage of religious people claim to hear voices (I may start a thread pertaining to that question). When an atheist hears voices he is sectioned. Thinking to yourself is obviously different by the way. Also if the voice your are hearing is that of a hypothesized deity that you believe in then that obviously has a lot to do with their religious beliefs.
janesix
Posts: 3,436
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1/28/2016 10:34:00 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:31:53 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 10:20:42 PM, janesix wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:32:59 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:13:58 PM, Torton wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:05:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:52:13 PM, Torton wrote:
No, claiming anything is a mental illness when it's not clinically factual will lead to anger, then resentment, and eventually to both sides hating each other (i.e., basically nothing could would come of it). And can you imagine if it was officially recognized as one in the DSM, the backlash would be huge. The right way to do this is to go after religious fundamentalism.

I understand your point, but I'm not interested in how people may feel because of it being classified as a mental illness. I'm after objective reasoning that either supports or rejects the idea.

Cheers.

Except, just like in the "Is liberalism a mental illness" thread, this is designed to provoke, rather than to legitimately discuss anything.

No, not at all. If people feel provoked by me asking a question of their beliefs, then that is their subjective problem.

Religion cannot be compared to liberalism, one tells you to speak to an invisible man and encourages you to hear voices in your head and interpret them as being a deity liaising with you.

What percentage of religious people actually claim to hear voices, etc? Probably not that many. I am sure there are plenty of atheists who here voices. Hearing voices has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Sure there are those who claim to hear jesus, god or whatnot, but there are also plenty who hear aliens etc. Nothing to do with religion.

I don't know what percentage of religious people claim to hear voices (I may start a thread pertaining to that question). When an atheist hears voices he is sectioned. Thinking to yourself is obviously different by the way. Also if the voice your are hearing is that of a hypothesized deity that you believe in then that obviously has a lot to do with their religious beliefs.

It also doesn't help that most psych wards are filled with Bibles.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/28/2016 11:52:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:02:27 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:54:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:37:24 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:24:37 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Mental states need not correlate with reality to be healthy mental function, but healthy function doesn't make it correlate with reality either; and what's healthy in small amounts may be less healthy when it dominates other function.

Ok thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand how so many religious people claim to hear voices in their head though. I guess it more of a delusion, but can delusions on a grand scale not be equivalent to a mental disorder?

Medically, the issue is whether a person's thinking is affecting their welfare and ability to function, and you can function quite well while carrying delusions around.

In ancient times, people routinely believed in angels, demons, witches, fairies, spirits, wonders and monsters and would routinely report seeing them. But in ancient times there was little sense of objectivity... what your mind perceived, you saw, and what you saw was generally considered real. Ontology (what exists) and epistemology (how truth is tested) were very different from the kinds of ideas we have now. In many ancient cultures, three reputable testimonies to anything could make it true. We don't fully realise how much higher science has set the bar today, and how atypical that is historically.

But when you think about it, most people talk to themselves in their heads. They rehearse and fantasise encounters and scenes. It's quite a small step to go from playing multiple voices in your head to becoming convinced that one voice is coming from somewhere else.

Well if somebody believed they could jump off a bridge because God won't let them die then that definitely affects their welfare.

Napoleon Bonaparte is quoted as saying, "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." [http://www.military-quotes.com...]

I point this out to illustrate that the idea of risking our safety for reputation is common in human psychology. But in particular, religious nationalism is the idea of nationhood born of common faith. People will fight and die for an abstract idea of nation whether religious or not, so I'm not persuaded that religion nationalism is born so much of religious delusion as it is from zealous obsession with national identity -- an obsession that can be found in religious and irreligious alike.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,003
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1/29/2016 9:48:26 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 10:12:14 PM, Sophisto wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:52:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

The bible lacks concept of mental illness.
Read about it here.
http://www.debate.org...

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Q, Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?

A, Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://fivethirtyeight.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sophisto: Compelling, but if you think Jesus isn't going to be scrutinizing the legitimacy of these men's salvation, you lack moral imagination. Judgment Day would clarify everything in conjunction with eligibility for the Rapture. Remember, if you don't impress Jesus enough to be Raptured, you are not likely to make it to eternity with Jesus. Not that I am loyal, but I am superior at reading between the lines and filling in the gaps with my "heresy". Humoring the framework of Jesus' little game is...amusing.

Fundies may be ill, but I was already congenitally schizophrenic. It preceded my time as a mere Christian. Now that I am evolved, your rules do not apply to me. My rules are more big picture and panoramic. Point being, I am decently competent at logic so that I can compensate with adaptive reasoning far more adequately your average church-goer is capable of achieving. Try me.

What we can take from the federal prison survey is becoming a Christian is not a deterrent against criminality. It might even be an attempt to game tbe system by converting to Christianity and holding Jesus at his word that all will be forgiven.

What is alarming is having 2 billion Christians gaming the system which is why 80% of the prison population are Christians. Heaven couldn't be any different. It might even have a higher population of sinners all converted to beat the rap.

Who would qualify as a true believers? Even as pure as Jesus was, he too succumbed to criminal activity and was crucified along with criminals. That is not to say all Christians are criminals, but most criminals are Christians.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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1/29/2016 12:15:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

Hmmm speaking of mindsets let us.

So here we have Redford the nutt making claims in regards to others that go against his atheistic worldview by just presenting his shallow limitations and some words with no evidence or any logic other than what he "thinks" or perceives it to be lol, how do we know Redford the nutt is sane at all? how do we know he ain't sitting home on his recliner swallowing a rack of pills?

Hey while we're at it, let's go ahead and call this poster whatever we want, why not? that seems fitting and perfectly acceptable just using the approach of the OP no?

This is the limitations and danger of the materialist/atheist mindset, it forces the atheist to believe that any and all spiritual/religious claims are just the result of mental illness.
He then states "consistent with reality", making the assumption that his very own materialist atheistic worldview is what reality is and there is no God or Creation and any claim that goes against his mindset a mental illness.
WE KNOW for a fact, that religion (Creationism) and the awareness of a spiritual realm are not only consistent throughout our entire existence but overwhelms atheism to the point of the absurd, so who are the ones mentally ill? how do we know it's not atheists/atheism that are mentally ill?

So all in one post the OP'er claims without a shred of evidence or support that any religious claims are a mental illness, and that only his own atheistic worldview is acceptable and consistent with reality and anything else is deranged, can anyone say brainwashed and mentally limited lol?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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1/29/2016 12:19:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 9:48:26 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 10:12:14 PM, Sophisto wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:52:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

The bible lacks concept of mental illness.
Read about it here.
http://www.debate.org...

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Q, Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?

A, Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://fivethirtyeight.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sophisto: Compelling, but if you think Jesus isn't going to be scrutinizing the legitimacy of these men's salvation, you lack moral imagination. Judgment Day would clarify everything in conjunction with eligibility for the Rapture. Remember, if you don't impress Jesus enough to be Raptured, you are not likely to make it to eternity with Jesus. Not that I am loyal, but I am superior at reading between the lines and filling in the gaps with my "heresy". Humoring the framework of Jesus' little game is...amusing.

Fundies may be ill, but I was already congenitally schizophrenic. It preceded my time as a mere Christian. Now that I am evolved, your rules do not apply to me. My rules are more big picture and panoramic. Point being, I am decently competent at logic so that I can compensate with adaptive reasoning far more adequately your average church-goer is capable of achieving. Try me.

What we can take from the federal prison survey is becoming a Christian is not a deterrent against criminality. It might even be an attempt to game tbe system by converting to Christianity and holding Jesus at his word that all will be forgiven.

What is alarming is having 2 billion Christians gaming the system which is why 80% of the prison population are Christians. Heaven couldn't be any different. It might even have a higher population of sinners all converted to beat the rap.

Who would qualify as a true believers? Even as pure as Jesus was, he too succumbed to criminal activity and was crucified along with criminals. That is not to say all Christians are criminals, but most criminals are Christians.

Sorry again Harold, crime don't fly in Christianity, it don't matter what your momma was...

Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Nowhere does that include crimes against humanity in any way.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,003
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1/29/2016 1:26:22 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:19:07 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/29/2016 9:48:26 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 10:12:14 PM, Sophisto wrote:
At 1/28/2016 9:52:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

The bible lacks concept of mental illness.
Read about it here.
http://www.debate.org...

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Q, Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?

A, Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://fivethirtyeight.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sophisto: Compelling, but if you think Jesus isn't going to be scrutinizing the legitimacy of these men's salvation, you lack moral imagination. Judgment Day would clarify everything in conjunction with eligibility for the Rapture. Remember, if you don't impress Jesus enough to be Raptured, you are not likely to make it to eternity with Jesus. Not that I am loyal, but I am superior at reading between the lines and filling in the gaps with my "heresy". Humoring the framework of Jesus' little game is...amusing.

Fundies may be ill, but I was already congenitally schizophrenic. It preceded my time as a mere Christian. Now that I am evolved, your rules do not apply to me. My rules are more big picture and panoramic. Point being, I am decently competent at logic so that I can compensate with adaptive reasoning far more adequately your average church-goer is capable of achieving. Try me.

What we can take from the federal prison survey is becoming a Christian is not a deterrent against criminality. It might even be an attempt to game tbe system by converting to Christianity and holding Jesus at his word that all will be forgiven.

What is alarming is having 2 billion Christians gaming the system which is why 80% of the prison population are Christians. Heaven couldn't be any different. It might even have a higher population of sinners all converted to beat the rap.

Who would qualify as a true believers? Even as pure as Jesus was, he too succumbed to criminal activity and was crucified along with criminals. That is not to say all Christians are criminals, but most criminals are Christians.

Sorry again Harold, crime don't fly in Christianity, it don't matter what your momma was...

Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Nowhere does that include crimes against humanity in any way.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one"s foes will be members of one"s own household.

Peace be upon you.
Islam is a religion of peace. Any wonder why the prophet was loved and not despised as Jesus who was a racist and a hater of the traditional family.

Matthew 15:24 Jesus answered. " I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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1/29/2016 2:19:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:15:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

Hmmm speaking of mindsets let us.

So here we have Redford the nutt making claims in regards to others that go against his atheistic worldview by just presenting his shallow limitations and some words with no evidence or any logic other than what he "thinks" or perceives it to be lol, how do we know Redford the nutt is sane at all? how do we know he ain't sitting home on his recliner swallowing a rack of pills?

He's not the one hearing voices or seeing hallucinations, you are.

Hey while we're at it, let's go ahead and call this poster whatever we want, why not? that seems fitting and perfectly acceptable just using the approach of the OP no?

This is the limitations and danger of the materialist/atheist mindset, it forces the atheist to believe that any and all spiritual/religious claims are just the result of mental illness.

You have yet to show otherwise.

He then states "consistent with reality", making the assumption that his very own materialist atheistic worldview is what reality is and there is no God or Creation and any claim that goes against his mindset a mental illness.

If we go by the definition of reality, then gods and creation stories are not part of it.

WE KNOW for a fact, that religion (Creationism) and the awareness of a spiritual realm are not only consistent throughout our entire existence

Yes, all kinds of myths and superstitions have been consistent throughout history, not just the myths and superstitions you follow.

but overwhelms atheism to the point of the absurd, so who are the ones mentally ill? how do we know it's not atheists/atheism that are mentally ill?

Because, we aren't the ones hearing voices, seeing hallucinations and then calling it reality, you are.

So all in one post the OP'er claims without a shred of evidence or support that any religious claims are a mental illness, and that only his own atheistic worldview is acceptable and consistent with reality and anything else is deranged, can anyone say brainwashed and mentally limited lol?

Yes, we can say that, but not about the author of the OP.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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2/13/2016 9:54:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:15:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/28/2016 8:42:19 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Seeing as many religious minds hear voices in their heads, believe in things that are not consistent with reality and carry out deplorable acts in the name of their imaginary friend. Can we classify religiosity as the midset/ramblings of the mentally deranged?

Hmmm speaking of mindsets let us.

So here we have Redford the nutt making claims in regards to others that go against his atheistic worldview by just presenting his shallow limitations and some words with no evidence or any logic other than what he "thinks" or perceives it to be lol, how do we know Redford the nutt is sane at all? how do we know he ain't sitting home on his recliner swallowing a rack of pills?

Hey while we're at it, let's go ahead and call this poster whatever we want, why not? that seems fitting and perfectly acceptable just using the approach of the OP no?

This is the limitations and danger of the materialist/atheist mindset, it forces the atheist to believe that any and all spiritual/religious claims are just the result of mental illness.
He then states "consistent with reality", making the assumption that his very own materialist atheistic worldview is what reality is and there is no God or Creation and any claim that goes against his mindset a mental illness.
WE KNOW for a fact, that religion (Creationism) and the awareness of a spiritual realm are not only consistent throughout our entire existence but overwhelms atheism to the point of the absurd, so who are the ones mentally ill? how do we know it's not atheists/atheism that are mentally ill?

So all in one post the OP'er claims without a shred of evidence or support that any religious claims are a mental illness, and that only his own atheistic worldview is acceptable and consistent with reality and anything else is deranged, can anyone say brainwashed and mentally limited lol?

Excuse me, why do you feel the need to mock my name. I'm used to contributing to well mannered debates, so I'm not overly enthused by your apparent immaturity.

That said, I'll let bigons be bigons.

You say I make claims in my OP, what "claims" did I make that are objectively incorrect I'd like to know?