Total Posts:144|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Exodus is a big lie?

Jovian
Posts: 1,719
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:20:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?

The Exodus didn't happen.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:38:57 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:20:41 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?

The Exodus didn't happen.

Well if it did, then all pottery shards on the way to Israel and the suddenly high number of new pottery from another culture in Israel when 600 000 families suddenly immigrated there must have vanished into thin air.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:55:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:38:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:20:41 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?

The Exodus didn't happen.

Well if it did, then all pottery shards on the way to Israel and the suddenly high number of new pottery from another culture in Israel when 600 000 families suddenly immigrated there must have vanished into thin air.

Not to mention, there are no bones in the Sinai from a generation dying off as mentioned in the Exodus account..
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:21:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
How would you explain this?

Bs"d

It is easily explained by the stupidity of the so called "scientists".

There is truckloads of proof, but you must of course be willing to see it, and that is the problem with the scientists, their atheistic agenda will no allow them to see what is right before their eyes.

Nobody is as blind as he who doesn't want to see.

Bij voorbaat mijn hartelijke dank en zegen van boven toegewenst voor het goede werk.

Worlds in collision

By Chaim Eliav

This article has been published in Mishpacha of April 20 / 2005.

We faithfully-observant Jews do not require any scientific proof to validate our beliefs. Our heritage is a vibrant one, and it has been transmitted with amazing faithfulness and consistency from generation to generation, without any break.

As Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi wrote: "Direct mesora is equivalent to witnessing (events) with one own eyes." There is no essential difference between someone who witnesses a specific incident and someone many generations later who has heard an exact report of that event from his parents, so long of course as the chain of that transmission was unbroken and uninterrupted. Our belief in the Torah and the events which it describes is absolute, and no archaeological find or scientific study has the ability to undermine that bedrock belief.

Yet during the past few generations, we have been witness to a phenomenon of deniers. There are Holocaust deniers, even though survivors still exist today.

There are those who deny the establishment of the State of Israel, called the "New historians", a synonym for "liars".

There are people who suddenly deny the fact that the Jewish nation ever lived in Israel, claiming that no historical evidence substantiates that fact. In today's lexicon, such people are often called "professors".

In that light its no wonder that people deny the exodus from Egypt.

I stumbled upon the world of exodus deniers in 1978, as I prepared a column for the secular Israeli paper Ma'ariv. My column, which appeared every other week and was entitled "Know your Judaism", was published under the direction of my rabbi's. In honor of the approaching Pesach holiday, I focused on the amazing finding of Professor Immanuel Velikovsky regarding the exodus from Egypt. In the column I shared with my secular readers potentially provocative material, hoping that they would be prompted to accord the exodus more serious and more respectful. The exodus from Egypt, after all, is the cornerstone to our faith, and the key to the commandments of the Torah. And I was right: The article did indeed inspire broad repercussions.

At the time I didn't know anything about Professor Velikovsky. Later I learned that at the time he was living in the United States, in the academic capital of Princeton, New Jersey, near the famous Albert Einstein. I had discovered his amazing findings in one of his books I had chanced upon just a short time before Pesach, and I was captivated by what I read.

Once my column was published, I thought I would be able to put the matter to rest. But in truth, that Pesach was precisely when the story began. It started on the in between days of Pesach, with an audio attack. Two radio programs on Kol Israel were devoted to the topic of Velikovsky. Both programs interviewed scientists who mocked the man I had never met, calling him every possible derisive name: charlatan, trickster, forger, ignoramus, money hungry, manipulative, stupid, and who knows what else. Of course, neither program mentioned that what had provoked the scientists, precisely that week, was the fact that the said gentleman had been featured in Ma'ariv's religion column.

I listened to both programs, and my curiosity was piqued. I sensed that something interesting was hiding behind the curtain of the story called Velikovsky; I wasn't sure though, what it was. The furious force of the counterattack hinted to me that the fellow was probably right. Otherwise, the deniers wouldn't have wasted so much energy and verbal ammunition on a topic they saw as ludicrous.

I began reading and investigating. I visited the Haifa home of Professor Velikovsky's daughter, and discovered a topic that was simply fascinating. I was introduced to his books and to a mammoth collection of publications of both for and against him, still being added to up till this very day, more than fifty years after he rocked the world with his revolutionary theories. Another discovery I made was the lesser-known, ugly face of the American academic establishment, renowned for promoting freedom of expression, research, and the right to doubt one's colleague.

But when it came to Velikovsky's affair it became clear that all those ideals held water for certain scientists only when the material in question substantiated their previous beliefs. If not, they would condemn you as a falsifier of facts, and the scientific mafia would make use of all sorts of dubious methods to silence you, including boycotts and persecution, even the spread of lies. To one American researcher, the Velikovsky affair was reminiscent of Galileo's persecution by the Catholic Church. Scientists considered that persecution to be sign of the darkness of the Middle Ages, the censoring of intellectualism, of narrow mindedness preventing scientific progress.

But here, the American scientific establishment behaved in the exact same manner toward Velikovsky, with the same wickedness, narrow mindedness, and medieval outlook. It is simply amazing to see how the American scientific community pounced upon him when he tried to publish his first book in 1950.

Who was Velikovsky, and why did his theories infuriate the American scientific community?

Parallels in a Papyrus.

In order to understand the world's response, we must discuss exactly what bothered Professor Immanuel Velikovsky, the Russian born doctor and psychiatrist. For some reason connected to his routine psychological research, he was disturbed by the question: "How could it be that the story of the exodus from Egypt, which holds such a prime position in the Torah, and commandment observation, a story that is repeated in Song of Devorah, and in the Psalms, a mighty event that left a deep impression on the Jewish nation and the neighboring non-Jews as well, as is written in the song at the sea, how could it possibly be that the record of such an event does not appear in any writings of the nations of that period, nor in the history of Egypt which was struck first? How could it be, he wondered.

Aren't countless events of ancient history recorded in writings of the period? How could it be that not one word was written about the exodus from Egypt? It was certainly an outstanding event. (by the way, this lack of historical records has brought many non-Jewish and Jewish historians to deny the story and question its veracity, from a historical viewpoint)

Immanuel Velikovsky was not a religious person. Still, he believed in the authenticity of the Bible. And so, in contrast to the learned men of his time, decided to find some solution to the riddle.

It was just then, in 1939, that he left Israel for a sabbatical year in the United States. There he dug trough libraries, searching for some clue that would lead him to the solution he sought. And he succeeded. In a New York library, he discovered a translation of an Egyptian papyrus stored in a museum in Leiden, Holland. It was called the Ipuwer Papyrus, and that was the subject of my column in Ma'ariv over twenty years ago.

To be continued bs'd
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:23:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
This papyrus does indeed give the sense that it is an Egyptians description of the Ten Plagues. In the accompanying frame readers can see the parallels between the words of the Torah, and the lament of the Egyptian priest Ipuwer. Note how the Torah describes the Plague of the blood: "And there was blood in all the land of Egypt ..." and what Ipuwer the Egyptian saw: "Plague is throughout the land, blood is everywhere"

Most fascinating is the last line, describing the pillar of fire that preceded the Jewish camp: "And the Lord walked before them ... with a pillar of fire to illuminate [the way] for them." The Egyptians saw this stunning sight, but did not explain it correctly: "Behold the fire has mounted up on high. It's burning goes forth against the enemies of the land."

The parallels printed here are just a portion of those shared by the papyrus and the Torah. The similarity between the Egyptian plagues and the exodus is blatantly clear.

I admit that when I first read the translation of the papyrus I was very moved. It wasn't that I was searching for a validation of the exodus from Egypt, Heaven Forbid. I fully believe the Torah's testimony, in every sense of the word. But it was interesting to see how these mighty events were viewed by a stranger, especially the Egyptian victim.

Apparently Velikovsky was also very excited, as he later wrote in one of his books. He had found external proof of the exodus from Egypt, the proof for which he had been searching. The Egyptians had mentioned it. However, he still had nothing concrete in his hands to present for the scientific community and the wider public. Velikovsky, who wished to convince the scientists who didn't believe in the exodus, of the veracity of his finding, and that the exodus was indeed an historical event beyond that written in the Torah, still had to solve two problems.

The first problem was that according to the accepted Egyptian dating system, the Ipuwer papyrus belonged to an earlier period, 600 years before the Jews left Egypt. Meaning, it was impossible that the Egyptian priest by the name of Ipuwer could be lamenting an event that would only happen 600 years later.

The second problem was that it was impossible to explain the miracles of Egypt from a natural standpoint.

Obviously, the atheistic scholars would never accept the theory that a miracle had occurred. But because the miracle occurred in the physical reality of the world, it was self evident that some physical changes had taken place. The Nile had been transformed to blood, and the hail had knocked down the trees. Velikovsky wanted to know what had caused the catastrophe described by the Torah and by Ipuwer. If he could find some comprehensive physical explanation for the causes for the Egyptian plagues, (without determining whether a Divine miracle had caused them or not) and prove it, then even the scientists would have to agree with him against their will.

In fact, the solutions that Velikovsky proposed for these two problems were a total revolution in scientific theory of those times. A revolution that pushed the envelope of the scientific world of 1950. The fact that Velikovsky met such vehement opposition, that a virtual dictatorship set out to squelch him by boycotting him and banning him, proved that these scientists could not simply dismiss his theory with an arrogant, casual, comment of "nonsense".

600 years and finding an exodus instead.

Velikovsky solved the chronological problem with a simple and swift procedure. After examining the topic from every angle, he reached the conclusion that the existing Egyptian chronology had been overestimated, and that it was actually shorter than the historians had surmised.

Even the Egyptologists acknowledge that the chronology is not completely reliable. In contrast, the chronology of the Tanach (Old Testament) is amazingly precise. According to the Tanach, we can determine the exact date of the exodus from Egypt. What did Velikovsky do? In experimental fashion, he erased 600 years from Egyptian history. and aligned the papyrus with the period of the exodus. And that is where the really amazing thing happened. The moment that he recalculated Egyptian history without the 600 years, Velikovsky noted a fascinating corroboration of events between the Tanach and ancient Egyptian writings. It was a corroboration that continued for the next 1000 years until the destruction of the first Temple. The Egyptian writings mentioned many events that happened in Israel during the reign of the Kings and Prophets. Suddenly it grew clear who the Amelikites were. The historical records mentioned the Queen of Sheba, described the majesty of king Solomon, and noted the great woman who lived in Shunam who lived during the time of Ahab. The Egyptians even wrote what the indians in America said when the sun failed to rise after it was stopped by by Yehoshua in Givon. There were many other such enlightening finds.

Velikovsky's comprehensive effort to reconstruct the history of the ancient nations through this 600 year adjustment was the inspiration for his series "Ages in Chaos". Most important of all, it grew clear that the Jewish nation and its history held considerable weight and import at the time, in complete distinction to that implied by most accepted textbooks.

That was how Velikovsky solved the first problem.

As for the second problem, what actually happened in the natural world when the plagues struck Egypt, causing the crumbling of the Egyptian monarchy, Velikovsky reached another revolutionary conclusion. After examining all the ancient myths of the time, he realized that the plagues were not merely local phenomena, their length and breath had to have global ramifications, (and our Sages have taught us that when the Red Sea was split, all the water in the world was split. Similarly, the Midrash writes that the wise men of the nations came to Bilaam and asked him whether God was bringing a new flood upon the world. Bilaam answered that God had already promised not to bring a flood to the world. The wise men said: Perhaps not a flood of water, but a flood of fire? Bilaam calmed them, saying: No, God is now giving the Torah to His nation Israel. Apparently, the echoes of certain earth-shattering natural phenomena can be heard by the nations of the world. And if that is the case, they will certainly record their fears)

Indeed Velikovsky found in ancient sources a plethora of ancient myths, tales, and clear historical testimonies, from many unrelated sources, that provided much information allowing him to reconstruct what had occurred when those catastrophes had taken place. And the emergent picture matches the story told by the Torah.

Velikovsky reached the conclusion that his initial assumptions were proven facts. Once he was sure of that, he set out to find physical evidence of the theory. He devoted himself to a comprehensive study of the mechanics of the heavenly bodies, geology, paleontology, physics, chemistry, and radioactive dating, amongst others. His impressive conclusion was a broad reconstruction of events that had occurred thousands of years before. Velikovsky's major finding was that the world had witnessed a series of natural disasters whose source was in the heavenly bodies. These disasters had been clearly witnessed by the medieval nations, and caused abrupt changes throughout ancient history. This article is not the right venue to expand on Velikovsky's findings. Instead I will condense his conclusion to a few lines: The nature of these catastrophic events and their results, as described in the historical records, caused Velikovsky to conclude that the event that activated the clamor and rocked the earth was the fiery emergence of Venus from the planet Jupiter. After it sprang out of Jupiter and before it entered its current orbit, Venus draw close to Earth a number of times, and each time it caused massive damag
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:25:04 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
It is important to note that Velikovsky also concluded that space is not an empty vacuum, containing only the heavenly bodies and operating solely according to the laws of gravity and Newtons laws of physics, but that there also exists bodies and electromagnetic particles that form wide magnetic fields and the possibility of fierce electromagnetic degeneration. In truth, my intention in this article is not to examine the veracity of this theory. I am not a scientist, nor do I need any scientific proofs to believe in the exodus from Egypt. And Velikovsky, in his obsessive quest to explain everything in scientific terms palatable to the scientific community, also drew conclusions that we as believers cannot accept and which are completely unnecessary to bolster his magnificent theory.

In a telephone conversation I conducted with him he agreed that a specific Jerusalem rabbi he mentioned by name would examine his findings in case that his books would be translated to Hebrew. My main focus here is the hysterical reaction of the scientific community to what they saw as an attempt to prove that the Tanach was true from a purely scientific viewpoint.

The great battle begins.

In 1950 most historians and astronomers saw Velikovsky's predictions and conclusions as nonsense. But while most aspiring scientists are accorded the right to propose theories even when the scientific community is not convinced of their veracity, this is not what happened to Velikovsky. His book; "Worlds in Collision", became the target of a fierce attack, even before it rolled of the printing presses. The attack was led by Dr. Harlow Shapley, a famous astronomer who then served as director of the Harvard University Observatory. Velikovsky met with Shapley in the spring of 1946 and described the ramifications of his extended, exhaustive study of the ancient writings. He asked whether Shapley would agree to read his manuscript, which had been in the preparatory stages for six years, and carry out certain experiments to verify the theory. Shapley, who was highly pressured at the time, turned down Velikovsky. However, he stipulated that if the manuscript would be read and approved by a well known scholar he knew, then he would find the time to read it, and he or a colleague would carry out the experiments in question.

Dr. Horace Kallen, a well-known scholar and co-founder of the New School for Social Research in New York, read Velikovsky's work. Deeply impressed, he wrote to Shapley and urged him to carry out the experiments, saying that if the theory should prove valid, "not only astronomy but history and a good many of the anthropological and social sciences would need to be reconsidered both for their content and explanation."

Shapley, when he heard that the work cast doubt on the stability of the solar system, sufficed with the following reply: "If Velikovsky is right, the rest of us are crazy."

Not only that, a short time after the book appeared in print, a university student asked Shapley whether she could base her research paper on the book. He answered her in the negative, saying Velikovsky was a liar and a forger. As for her question whether he read the book, Shapley provided the following scientific answer: "I didn't read it and I don't plan on reading it, because he is a liar and a forger." It was as simple as that. When it came to Velikovsky, the famous American "benefit of the doubt" had for some reason disappeared. At the onset of 1950, when the Macmillan publication company announced its intentions to publish Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision", Shapley tried to prevent the book from going to press. He threatened to "sever his ties" with the company, which relied on textbook sales for a substantial part of its profits. In what seemed to be an organized boycott, a long line of letters arrive in the Macmillan offices, all written by scientists, authors, and professors who used Macmillan textbooks for their courses. The letters warned the company to abandon its plan of publishing Velikovsky's books. At that point Macmillan had already begun the printing process. Faced with a though dilemma, the company announced that it would agree to a last minute critique of the book by three well known scientists. When two out of the three approved publication, Macmillan went ahead with the printing and the book appeared on the shelves in April of that year.

Thats when the storm broke.

Many saw the logic in Velikovsky's ideas and supported his right to express them. Gordon A. Atwater, curator or the Hayden Planetarium in New York's Museum of Natural History, is quoted at the beginning of Hulton Urstler's column in Readers Digest as saying that "the theories presented by Dr. Velikovsky are unique and should be presented to the world of science in order that the underpinnings of modern science be re-examined."

Atwater was so taken by Velikovsky's ideas that he planned an exhibit in the planetarium depicting the theory of Worlds in Collision. In addition, he prepared a cover article for the weekly "This Week", enjoining readers to approach the book without prior suspicions or preconceptions.

The night before the weekly went to print, Atwater was asked to resign from his position at the museum.

A short time later, Macmillan fired James Putnam, the editor who had arranged the book contract. Pressure mounted on Macmillan to stop marketing "Worlds in Collision". Eight weeks after the book first appeared, Macmillan transferred rights to Doubleday, a company that specialized in non-academic publications. That was an unprecedented step in the history of book publishing, especially considering that at the time, "Worlds in Collision" was at the top of the New York Times bestseller list for works of non-fiction.

The initial opposition to Velikovsky's ideas was so violent that several commentators were reminded of Galileo's condemnation by the Inquisition. Apparently, the scientific community could not deal with the possibility that the Bible might be proven true. And so Velikovsky was ostracized for many years, even though his books were bestsellers. The scientific community mocked and degraded him, and he was isolated and ignored. All his requests to scientifically test the data he presented were rejected or ignored outright. In hindsight, it is clear that he was persecuted because he forced the scientific world to consider the authenticity of the Torah. That is what a scientist declared many years after the book were published: That he would never forgive Velikovsky for causing so many Jews and Christians to once again believe in the Bible. An Australian, non-Jewish scientist, a proponent of th theory that the heavenly bodies suffered disturbances during fairly recent historical periods, recounted that whenever he lectures about Velikovsky's theories, the audience always applauds enthusiastically. However, the moment they realize that those theories validate the Torah's version of the exodus of Egypt, he is always met with fierce antagonism and opposition.

Conjecture becomes fact

But soon Velikovsky's moment of greatness arrived. The scientific world that had vilified and pursued him mercilessly was thunderstruck to witness the unbelievable: His predictions begone to be fulfilled. From then until today, new findings have come to the fore, from radio-telescopic observations and space missions, which validate and lend credence to many of his predictions and assumptions. As far as I can remember, there are seventy-eight scientific rulings that were proven true by scientific observations. Dr. Lionel Rubinoff, a philosophy professor in Ontario's Trent University, summed it up with the following words: "Velikovsky begins with myths and history, develops a hypothesis, and then implements it with and explanation of natural phenomena. Which is unbelievable, because now there appear, finally, the results of experiments and tests, and they tend to stren
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:25:59 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
In fact, the proofs are literally amazing. I will share a few of them.

1. The first of Velikovsky's conclusions that the planet Venus detached from the planet Jupiter, was received with scornful derision. According to the preferred astronomical hypothesis, the planets have their source beyond the solar system, in a giant galaxy of cosmic dust. Ten years after the appearance of "Worlds in Collision", R.A Lyttleton, the famous British cosmologist, proved mathematically that the planet Venus, and essentially all the "internal" planets, had detached from Jupiter, though is his opinion it had happened much earlier. In 1974, data collected by the space shuttle Mariner 10 proved that this thesis was in fact a solid one. "Irregular spaces in the slope of the planet" reported the crew that analyzed the Mariner data, "point to the existence of a tail resembling a comet ..."

Meaning, Velikovsky's calculations were right.

2. Velikovsky claimed that the planet Venus was "burning" with intense heat at specific historical junctures. In 1950, most researchers believed that the atmosphere around the planet Venus was merely several degrees hotter than that surrounding planet Earth, certainly not more than the boiling point of water. Velikovsky , in contrast, anticipated that even though thousands of years had passed since its fiery detachment, the planet would still be much hotter than Earth. In 1962, when Mariner II passed near Venus, it registered a temperature of 800 degrees Fahrenheit, 299 degrees higher than the boiling point of lead. In later, more precise examinations, temperatures of 900 degrees were registered. Once again, Velikovsky had been proven right.

3. Another conclusion of Velikovsky: "I claimed that Venus has a very massive atmosphere at the time when my opponent and critic, Spencer Jones, claimed that Venus has less atmosphere than Earth."

In 1966, the Russian research shuttle Venere 3 was completely unprepared for the pressure that it encountered when it landed on Venus. The shuttle exploded into shards. Apparently, the atmosphere on Venus was ninety-five times denser than that on Earth. Once again, scientific evidence had lined up on Velikovsky's side.

4. Velikovsky claimed that organic molecules composed of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen were present on Venus. Indeed, in February 1974, Mariner 10 discovered those three elements in the upper layer, a fact that lent strong support for Velikovsky's view.

In 1978, the data collected by the Pioneer Venus shuttle that had examined the atmosphere of Venus, proved that there indeed existed a substantial percentage of methane (hydrocarbon). Not only that, the shuttle data astounded the the researchers with the inescapable conclusion that the composition of Venus was inherently different than that of Earth. The percentage of the isotope ergon-36 in Venus's atmosphere, for example, was scores more than the percentage found in Earth. Ergon is a noble gas that does not undergo chemical transformations, and its relative presence in the atmosphere is a function solely of some radioactive degeneration.

5. Velikovsky claimed that outer space is not completely empty, and that electromagnetism file a basic function in the solar system. Virtually without exception, all the astronomers of the early Fifties opposed that view. Among the opponents was Albert Einstein, an acquaintance of Velikovsky since the twenties. Despite the fact that Einstein showed enthusiasm for several of Velikovsky's basic concepts, he strongly opposed the theory that space includes wide magnetic fields, that the sun and the planets were charged bodies, and that electromagnetism fills a role in celestial mechanics.

In June 1954, when the two scholars lived in close proximity in the city of Princeton, New Jersey, Velikovsky suggested to Einstein that they test his theory. In writing, he explained that the theory could be proven correct or unfounded by the results of an experiment testing whether or not Jupiter emitted radio waves. Einstein responded in his usual style, with notes in the margins of the documents, one of which discounted that possibility. Ten months later, at the beginning of 1955, astronomers in the Carnegie Institute were shocked to pick up strong radio noises originating from Jupiter.

Once again, Velikovsky was right.

When Einstein learned of the findings, he announced with great emphasis that he would use his influence to have Velikovsky's theories tested scientifically. Nine days later, Einstein died. "World in Collision" was found open on his desk.

6. Velikovsky also claimed, beginning in 1954, that considerable quantities of the noble gases ergon and neon would be present in Mars's atmosphere.

At the beginning of the Seventies, Russian studies of Mars proved that Velikovsky's predictions were correct.

7. Even the moon holds proof to the cosmic events which Velikovsky described. On July 21, 1969, that day that the first person landed on the moon, the New York Times published a column by Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky summing up his expectations. He wrote: "I establish that less than 3000 years ago the surface of the moon was often molten and bubbling. The lunar rock and coagulated lava are still rich, apparently in magnetic residue. I will not be surprised if bethomen or carvidim or barbonatim would be found in the composition of the rocks. I predict that strong radioactivity will be found in limited areas as a result of interplanetary electric degeneration. Similarly, I predict that there are many earthquakes upon the surface of the moon."

These assumptions, along with others, were send in a memorandum to Professor H.H. Hess, president of the Space Science Board of the National Academy of Sciences. Most of the astronomers saw these predictions as wild ravings whose veracity was highly doubtful or even impossible. To their amazement, an analysis of the rock samples and other data collected on the moon by the six Apollo missions proved that once again, Velikovsky's predictions had been on the mark.

A Gentlemanly Debate?

If you thought that Velikovsky's reputation was restored after these amazing successes, think again. For some reason, Velikovsky was never awarded the right as a scientist to propose theories, even after his ideas were proven by experimentation. Einstein behaved like a gentleman when he learned that he had been mistaken, but what about all the others?

Even today, astronomers still attribute a very meager possibility to Velikovsky's claim that the planet Venus originated in a comet that detached from Jupiter, or that the orbit of planet Earth had suddenly changed both 2700 and 3500 years before.

Geologist Stephen Jay Gould wrote a few years ago in the monthly Natural History, that he would continue to renounce any budding ideas that stemmed from unprofessional sources. He also wrote that "I don't think that Velikovsky will be amongst the winners in this battle, which is hardest of all to determine."

But is difficult to completely ignore the Velikovsky phenomenon. The validation that his ideas garnered after each successive space mission exerted pressure on the scientific establishment. Since the appearance of the first edition in 1950, "Worlds in Collision" was reprinted many times, and translated in many languages. Several scientific periodicals devoted entire issues to Velikovsky's ideas His theories inspired courses and seminars in many universities. Many scholarly articles found (and still find) their basis in his work, in an assortment of disciplines ranging from ancient history to international relations. Many books, some in favor, and some against, discussed Velikovsky's theories.

The upper crust scientific monthly "Signs", in its comments on the Velikovsky phenomenon, pointed out that his ideas now seem to be a dividing line among the mainstream American scientific community.
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:26:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
But the scientific community did not rest on its laurels. In February 1974 The American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) held a symposium in San Francisco dedicated to Velikovsky's theories. In a wearying debate that lasted seven hours Velikovsky stood his ground against a battery of attackers. In order to prove Velikovsky's ignorance, the association simply forged portions of his books, and that is what they used as the basis of the public debate. When Velikovsky tried crying fraud, claiming that the lecturers were disproving things he had never written,they ignored him completely. He was accorded much less time for rebuttal than that allowed to the lecturers who opposed him. In his lecture, he vehemently and heatedly defended his position, and refuted all the points they had made. At the conclusion of his speech, a large crowd of AAAS members and guests stood up and applauded him with prolonged cheering.

But his grand performance and the enthusiastic response did not much help Velikovsky. The world of academia continued to reject him, and when a review of that fateful symposium was published, all those "men of science" had no problems reprinting the forged versions of his books, once again denying him the right to respond. Apparently, this was fitting punishment for someone who tried to prove the authenticity of the story of the exodus from Egypt.

Velikovsky's True Place

Then the well known atheistic astronomer Carl Sagan of Cornell University, published a derisive article, fifty-seven pages long, on the Velikovsky world view. He wrote: "Where Velikovsky is original, he is apparently wrong. .... Where he is right, others have preceded him." But in all this comprehensive work, Sagan did not relate at all to those of Velikovsky's astronomic predictions that had been proven true.

In 1978 the book "Velikovsky and the Scientific Establishment" appeared, written by Velikovsky himself, and the editors of the "Chronus Journal". The book addressed all of Carl Sagan's arguments and also pointed out some course mistakes in his calculations, as well as those of other critics.

After that symposium, many others conferences were held, all centered round Velikovsky's work. As if to spite his detractors, more and more reports about Jupiter came in from Pioneer 10 and 11, the Mariner shuttle that passed near Venus and Mercury, and lastly, from pioneer Venus, that continue to lend credence to Velikovsky's theories.

Until the day he died in November 1979, Velikovsky continues to heatedly defend his his positions and to refute every opposing claim. Today there exists a sizable population of Velikovsky's supporters, many of them experts in natural science, the discipline that most often encounters the issues he raised. Even today, there still appear scientific journals dedicated to his theory. "It is not essentially so important what is the true place of Velikovsky in the revolution currently rocking many scientific disciplines", Velikovsky said in his speech at a convention for the Advancement of Science. "But my hope is that this symposium will be a belated recognition of the fact that by calling derisive names in stead of testing and experimenting, nothing is achieved. None of my critics can erase the magnetosphere, nobody can stop the noises from Jupiter, nobody can cool down Venus, and nobody can change a single sentence in my books."

That is a small glimpse into a fascinating affair in which freedom of expression was stifled in the name of science, just for the sake of avoiding the truth. The following anecdote can explain the entire phenomenon: A well known archaeologist argued with an Israeli historian, who proved to him the veracity of Velikovsky's thesis regarding a specific historical issue they were debating. The stunned researcher answered: "So what do you want me to do, burn all the books I've written on the subject? I don't want to!"

That is certainly a most "scientific" argument, and one we cannot refute.
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:47:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.
We???? Who the fu @k is in your head besides you and your wooden puppet you call a brain? Lol
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 6:55:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:55:01 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:38:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:20:41 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?

The Exodus didn't happen.

Well if it did, then all pottery shards on the way to Israel and the suddenly high number of new pottery from another culture in Israel when 600 000 families suddenly immigrated there must have vanished into thin air.

Not to mention, there are no bones in the Sinai from a generation dying off as mentioned in the Exodus account..
Yeah, you do your homework, don't ya, lol
http://www1.cbn.com...
keithprosser
Posts: 1,939
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 7:05:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Velikovsky - seriously?

My take on the Egyptian episode in Exodus begins with noting that it was probably composed - or heavily redacted - during the Babylonian exile around 650 BC and is in fact a coded reference to that exile.

Essentially the fictitious Egyptian episode was intended as a parallel to the real Babylonian captivity, written to provide an up-lifting myth for the exiled Jews, essentially saying that what happened to the Egyptians would happen to the Babylonians, provided they kept faith with YHWH (or rather in his priests who wrote the story). Just as Moses had led them to them promised land long ago (so the story went), the exiles would one day return to Israel, presumably wreaking similar - or worse - havoc on their Babylonian captors. As such it was part of the priests larger project to retain the Jewish identity of the exiles, and their own privileged position within it. The writing down of the scripture to define Jewish identity was an essential element of their strategy to preserve it.

in other words, the Egyptian episode is the Babylonian captivity 'in disguise'. In fact the Jews did indeed return to Israel when the Babylonians were defeated by the Persians under Cyrus in 538 BC, but the real and fictional endings are not very close parallels so I think the Egyptian episode may well have been composed shortly after the Babylonian exile began and before it ended.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 7:20:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 7:05:02 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Velikovsky - seriously?

My take on the Egyptian episode

Bs"d

"Your take"??? Seriously?

Who cares about your take??
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,890
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 9:43:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.

I know of another bloke name bull something or other, when he got out of Jail after serving 18 months, he found out his wife had just given birth to a baby boy. When I asked him how that happened, he said that she was the proper goose, but he weren't the propa-ganda.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 9:50:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.

Bs"d

That "insignificant little tribe" has put and puts a stamp on mankind as no other civilization ever has.

Half of the world (that is 2 billion Christians and 1.5 billion Muslims) believe that the holy books of that little shepherd tribe are inspired by God.

Mark Twain wrote about that the following:

"To conclude. - If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one per cent. of the human race. [the correct number is only 0,2%] It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star-dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.
He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.
The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

The whole story of Mark Twain, "Concerning the Jews" can be found here: http://www.fordham.edu...

The Jewish people make up about 0.2% of the world population.

Of all the Nobel price winners is about 30% Jewish. A 150 fold over-representation.

Of all the official world chess champions is more than 50% Jewish. A 250 fold over-representation. Or, put in a percentage: A 25,000% over-representation.

Somebody on a religious message board started a discussion with the following message:

"In the Bible it is written that whoever blesses the Jews, will be blessed by God, and that those whom curse the Jews, will be cursed themselves.
Isn't that proven in the ancient and modern history?
When a country was good for the Jews, that country was doing well. And when the authorities turned against the Jews, than that country went downhill fast.
When you look in the present, then you see: America supports Israel, en their own Jewish Americans; America is economically and military a superpower.
Europe: Sometimes positive, mostly neutral or critical towards Israel and the Jews: Second rate economic superpower, and military dwarf.
Moslim countries: Very hatefull towards Israel, and to Jews in general. Economically, military and culturally very backward.

What do you think about this?

An example: In the sixteenth century the Spanish deported all the Jews. They were welcomed by the Netherlands and in the Ottoman Empire. Culturally en economically it went from there downhill with the Spanish, this despite their colonial empire. The Dutch and the Turks had from then the wind in the back."

On this I answered: The above is simply a fact.
This is also confirmed by an enormous anti-semite, the founder of the car factories; Henry Ford. He wrote a terribly anti-semitic book, titled: "The International Jew", and in there he confirms the above. Here is an excerpt from that book:

"There is a curious fact to be noted in connection with the persecution and consequent wanderings of the Jews about Europe and that is: wherever they wandered, the center of business seemed to go with them. When the Jews were free in Spain, there was the world's gold center. When Spain drove out the Jews, Spain lost financial leadership and has never regained it. Students of the economic history of Europe have always been puzzled to discover why the center of trade should have shifted from Spain, Portugal and Italy, up to the northern countries of Holland, Germany, and England. They have sought for the cause in many things, but none has proved completely explanatory. When, however, it is known that the change was coincident with the expulsion of the Jews from the South and their flight to the North, when it is known that upon the Jews' arrival the northern countries began a commercial life which has flourished until our day, the explanation does not seem difficult. Time and again it has proved to be the fact that when the Jews were forced to move, the center of the world's precious metals moved with them."

That book can be found here: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au...
For my quote go to the end of chapter 13.

These remarkable facts are the sign which God has put in the Jewish people.

For more about the sign that God has set in the Jewish people., look here: http://www.debate.org...
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,890
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 10:53:53 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

Then here is your real proof.

I have already posted this in another thread, but it is also applicable here.

Although it is erroneously stated in Exodus 12: 40; that the Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years, in Galatians 3: 17; Paul makes it quite clear that they were in the land of Egypt for only 225 years.

Gal 3: 17; "God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law (Given by Moses) that was given 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God"s promise."

And so, the reason why there are no records of the Exodus in the time period in which our historians have searched and which the bible student who believe the erroneous statement that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years and must therefore have departed somewhere in the time period of the 1300 B.C, is because the Exodus and the expulsion of the old Hyksos Kings in the 15TH century B.C, are one and the same event.

From the Encarta encyclopedia, "Hyksos (Egyptian for "foreign rulers"), Semitic invaders who conquered Egypt in the early part of the 17th century BC and founded the 15th Dynasty.

In the early part of the 17TH century B.C, Semetic invaders (Called Hyksos) swept into Egypt, most likely from Palestine and Syria. They would control Egypt for roughly two centuries." --- (225 years if we are to believe the Bible.) The establishment of a Hyksos dynasty in northern Egypt marked the beginning of the Second Intermediate period, a time of turmoil and disunity that lasted for more than 225 years.

According to the compilers of Young"s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, they date the exodus at somewhere around the year of 1500 BC about the period when the island of Santorini or Thira blew it"s top, when seismic waves flooded Egyptian croplands, causing a famine and other catastrophic events.

Abraham was 85 when God first made his covenant with him, Isaac was born 15 years after the covenant, when Abraham was 100. Isaac was 60 when his son Jacob was born and Jacob was 130 when he was reunited with his son Joseph in the land of Egypt. 15+60+130=205. So we see that there was a period of 205 years between the covenant and the entry of the family of Israel into Egypt, where they dwelt for 225 years before departing, and receiving the law from Moses, 430 years after God"s covenant was made with Abraham.

From "The World Book Dictionary," (Hyksos) "A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt" from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings." --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, "Hyksos", invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of "King Tutimaios" entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567B.C.

Joseph the first of the shepherd kings, was given all authority in Egypt, no one could lift a hand or a foot without Joseph"s permission; see genesis 41: 44.

During the 7 years of plenty he taxed the population a percentage of their grain crops, during the great 7 year drought that followed, he sold that grain back to them. When they ran out of money, he took their live-stock as payment, when their live-stock was all gone, they were forced to sign over their land as payment for the grain.

Joseph made slaves of the Egyptian population, without striking a blow.

Taking into account the many other variables to numerous to be bothered about here, and knowing that the records of the different historians, although very close to each other in the dates of the Hyksos dynasty in Egypt, are yet still in conflict with their contemporaries, I believe that the essence of what they are saying is in total harmony to the spirit of God"s Word, and that with a little more research they will prove to the world that the exodus occurred at the precise time as the expulsion of the Shepherd Kings.

It was 40 years after they left Egypt that they destroyed Jericho, the first of their conquest in the Land of Canaan, which was the legal inheritance of the descendants of Shem.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

If, according to Josephus the historian, the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed 38 years after 1562 (minus 38 years) this would mean that Jericho fell in the year of 1529 BC, close enough to the 40 years after the Exodus that the bible states that Jericho was destroyed by the conquering Israelites.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,890
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 11:04:54 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...

And by whom was that movie made?
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 11:08:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 6:47:28 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.
We???? Who the fu @k is in your head besides you and your wooden puppet you call a brain? Lol
hahahaha your ignorance is a badge you wear with pride. Lots of laughs.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 11:21:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
For real archaeology read Finkelstein and Silberman The Bible Unearthed
No Exodus..
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:43:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 11:21:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
For real archaeology read Finkelstein and Silberman The Bible Unearthed
No Exodus..
The evidence is there, no one made it up. But nice confirmation bias. I on the other hand linked actual information that's been investigated
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:46:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 11:08:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 6:47:28 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
It's just an insignificant little tribe putting their weights up for domestic consumption only. We call it propaganda.
We???? Who the fu @k is in your head besides you and your wooden puppet you call a brain? Lol
hahahaha your ignorance is a badge you wear with pride. Lots of laughs.
For real ignorance click here, oh wait...for your appreciation actual information.

http://www1.cbn.com......
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:47:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:08:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
Some interesting articles I've been reading:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.


http://www.haaretz.com...

The Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, during decades of sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.[4] However, most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity. Historically, there were no Jews in Bronze Age Egypt (the setting of Exodus and, long before that, of the pyramids' erection), because there were no Jews at all until the rise of the kingdom of Judah in the Iron Age. Israelites first appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah Stele from between 1208-3 BCE; right at the end of the Bronze Age.

A reasonably Bible-friendly interpretation is that they were a federation of Habiru tribes of the hill-country around the Jordan River. Presumably, this federation consolidated into the kingdom of Israel, and Judah split from that, during the dark age that followed the Bronze. The Bronze Age term "Habiru" was more general than the Biblical "Hebrew"; it referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources discuss them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt; but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org...

How would you explain this?
This might...
http://www1.cbn.com....
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 12:50:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:43:57 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:21:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
For real archaeology read Finkelstein and Silberman The Bible Unearthed
No Exodus..
The evidence is there, no one made it up. But nice confirmation bias. I on the other hand linked actual information that's been investigated
You linked a video, woo hoo. Who made it and what are their qualifications?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 1:06:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 12:50:33 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:43:57 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:21:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
For real archaeology read Finkelstein and Silberman The Bible Unearthed
No Exodus..
The evidence is there, no one made it up. But nice confirmation bias. I on the other hand linked actual information that's been investigated
You linked a video, woo hoo. Who made it and what are their qualifications?

I didn't link a vid dude. I linked a newsletter. That's what I get for doing this stoned, lol
The site is editing out the link I guess because it's too long. Search "Exodus- evidence- that-demands-a-verdict.....
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 1:12:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 1:06:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:50:33 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 12:43:57 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:21:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/29/2016 11:01:00 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

For archaeological proof of the exodus from Egypt, watch the movie: "The Exodus Decoded"

https://www.youtube.com...
For real archaeology read Finkelstein and Silberman The Bible Unearthed
No Exodus..
The evidence is there, no one made it up. But nice confirmation bias. I on the other hand linked actual information that's been investigated
You linked a video, woo hoo. Who made it and what are their qualifications?

I didn't link a vid dude. I linked a newsletter. That's what I get for doing this stoned, lol
The site is editing out the link I guess because it's too long. Search "Exodus- evidence- that-demands-a-verdict.....
Who and what qualifications.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 1:39:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Tbe whole Jewish bible is a lie.

Archeology is Demolishing the History of the Bible

2001

The following are verbatim excerpts from news articles, which are linked below. This material is readily available to all for verification.

http://salon.com...

Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did not come a-tumbling down. How archaeologists are shaking Israel to its biblical foundations.

Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, with archaeology historian Neil Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text."

"The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom."

<< These statements correspond well with what was written by John Rembsburg:

"In the 12th chapter of Joshua is given a list of 31 kingdoms which were conquered by Israel. This was in the fifteenth century B.C. From this time forward they are represented as a mighty nation by Bible historians.

Rameses III overran Canaan and conquered it between 1280 and 1260 B.C. The Egyptian records give a list of all the tribes inhabiting it. The children of Israel-- the Hebrews-- were not there. In the 5th century B.C., when Herodotus, the father of History, was collecting materials for his immortal work, he traversed nearly every portion of Western Asia. He describes all its principal peoples and places; but the Jews and Jerusalem are of too little consequence to merit a line from his pen. Not until 332 B.C. do the Jews appear upon the stage of history, and then only as the submissive vassals of a Grecian king."

John E. Remsburg, The Bible (1901), pg. 263.

Jerusalem was essentially a cow town, not the glorious capital of an empire. These findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades.

The tales of the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Joseph among others -- were the first to go when biblical scholars found those passages rife with anachronisms and other inconsistencies. The story of Exodus, one of the most powerful epics of enslavement, courage and liberation in human history, also slipped from history to legend when archaeologists could no longer ignore the lack of corroborating contemporary Egyptian accounts and the absence of evidence of large encampments in the Sinai Peninsula ("the wilderness" where Moses brought the Israelites after leading them through the parted Red Sea).

Finkelstein is an iconoclast. He established his reputation in part by developing a theory about the settlement patterns of the nomadic shepherd tribes who would eventually become the Israelites, bolstering the growing consensus that they were originally indistinguishable from the rest of their neighbors, the Canaanites. This overturns a key element in the Bible: The Old Testament depicts the Israelites as superior outsiders -- descended from Abraham, a Mesopotamian immigrant -- entitled by divine order to invade Canaan and exterminate its unworthy, idolatrous inhabitants.

The famous battle of Jericho, with which the Israelites supposedly launched this campaign of conquest after wandering for decades in the desert, has been likewise debunked: The city of Jericho didn't exist at that time and had no walls to come tumbling down. These assertions are all pretty much accepted by mainstream archaeologists.

"Research is research, and strong societies can easily endure discoveries like this." By comparison with today's skeptical turmoil, the early years of the modern Israeli state were a honeymoon period for archaeology and the Bible, in which the science seemed to validate the historical passages of the Old Testament left and right. As Finkelstein and Silberman relate, midcentury archaeologists usually "took the historical narratives of the Bible at face value"; Israel's first archaeologists were often said to approach a dig with a spade in one hand and the Bible in the other. The Old Testament frequently served as the standard against which all other data were measured: If someone found majestic ruins, they dated them to Solomon's time; signs of a battle were quickly attributed to the conquest of Canaan. Eventually, though, as archaeological methods improved and biblical scholars analyzed the text itself for inconsistencies and anachronisms, the amount of the Bible regarded as historically verifiable eroded. The honeymoon was over.

Marcus says that Finkelstein is "difficult to dismiss because he's so much an insider in terms of his credentials and background. He's an archaeologist, not a theologian, and he is an Israeli. It's hard to say that someone who was born in Israel and intends to live the rest of his life there is anti-Israeli."

the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document.

The Bible is not - and was never intended to be - a historical document. A work of theology, law, ethics and literature, it does contain historical information; but if we want to evaluate this information we should consider when, how and why the Bible was compiled.

Until comparatively recently, the Bible was accepted as the word of God by most Jews and Christians, and therefore scholarly works dealing with it concentrated on its interpretation. In the 19th century CE, the "Age of Reason," scholars began subjecting the biblical texts to linguistic, textual, and literary analysis, noting inconsistencies and interrupted rhythms, comparing styles, and placing the text within the archaeological, historical and geographical background.

There are still many differing opinions regarding the origin of the Bible, when it was written, and under what conditions; but it is fair to say that, outside fundamentalist circles, modern consensus suggests that the assembling and editing of the documents that were to constitute the Bible began in the seventh century BCE, some three centuries after David's time. (The earliest actual material in our possession, part of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dates to the second century BCE at the earliest).

In particular, the account of Joshua's conquest of Canaan is inconsistent with the archaeological evidence. Cities supposedly conquered by Joshua in the 14th century bce were destroyed long before he came on the scene. Some, such as Ai and Arad, had been ruins for a 1000 years.

The Book of Judges, which directly contradicts Joshua, and shows the Israelites settling the land over a prolonged period, is nearer historical reality; but even it cannot be taken at face value. The archaeological surveys conducted over the past two decades indicate that the origin and development of the Israelite entity was somewhat different from either of the rival accounts in the Bible. The survey was conducted by more than a dozen archaeologists, most of them from Tel Aviv University's Institute of Archaeology.

Around 1200 bce, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions. The conclusion is somewhat startling to Bible readers who know the Canaanites portrayed in the Bible as immoral idolaters: most of the Israelites were in fact formerly Canaanites.

Continued......
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 1:50:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Around 1200 bce, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions. The conclusion is somewhat startling to Bible readers who know the Canaanites portrayed in the Bible as immoral idolaters: most of the Israelites were in fact formerly Canaanites. The story of Abraham's journey from Ur of the Chaldees, the Patriarchs, the Exodus, Sinai, and the conquest of Canaan, all these were apparently based on legends that the various elements brought with them from their countries of origin. The consolidation of the Israelites into a nation was not the result of wanderings in the desert and divine revelation, but came from the need to defend themselves against the Philistines, who settled in the Canaanite coastal plain more or less at the same time the Israelites were establishing themselves in the hills.

Thus the founders of Israel were not Abraham and Moses; but Saul and David. It was apparently Saul who consolidated the hill farmers under his rule and created fighting units capable of confronting the Philistines. It was David who defeated the Philistines and united the hill farmers with the people of the Canaanite plains, thus establishing the Kingdom of Israel and its capital city.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,586
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 2:35:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 6:21:02 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
It is easily explained by the stupidity of the so called "scientists".

There is truckloads of proof, but you must of course be willing to see it, and that is the problem with the scientists, their atheistic agenda will no allow them to see what is right before their eyes.
I focused on the amazing finding of Professor Immanuel Velikovsky regarding the exodus from Egypt.

LOL. I can't believe people are still following Velikovsky's insane nonsense.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth