Total Posts:114|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Iceland, an atheist hellhole full of crime?

Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 11:04:59 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 10:40:11 AM, Jovian wrote:
Damn, I forgot to provide the source to the three first sentences of information. Here it is http://www.bbc.com...
The standard response Jov.
They're not real atheists. LOL. LMFAO
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 11:09:14 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:04:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:40:11 AM, Jovian wrote:
Damn, I forgot to provide the source to the three first sentences of information. Here it is http://www.bbc.com...
The standard response Jov.
They're not real atheists. LOL. LMFAO

Yeah these kind of religious people love the no true scotsman fallacy. And when you refer to Christian mass murderers like Anders Breivik, Eric Rudolph, all kings of the Medieval Ages etc, then you will also hear "Woah woah woah these people were not true Christians". Same when some Muslims call IS "untrue Muslims".
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?

Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:07:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

Bs"d

Wow, that's impressive! Only one homocide.

But maybe you forgot the mention that in all of Iceland are living less than 5% of the people of New York City?

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Icelanders have freedom of religion under the Constitution of Iceland, though the Church of Iceland, a Lutheran body, is the state church. The Registers Iceland keeps account of the religious affiliation of every Icelandic citizen. In 2015, Icelanders were divided into religious groups as follows:

73.8% members of the Church of Iceland.
11.7% members of some other Christian denomination.
7.1% other and not specified
5.6% unaffiliated
1.5% members of non-Christian denomination.
0.3% members of the Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association

Iceland is a very secular country: as with other Nordic nations, religious attendance is relatively low.[174][175] The above statistics represent administrative membership of religious organisations, which does not necessarily reflect the belief demographics of the population of Iceland. According to a study published in 2001, 23% of the inhabitants are either atheist or agnostic.[176] A Gallup poll conducted in 2012 found that 57% of Icelanders considered themselves "a religious person", 31% consider themselves "a non religious person", while 10% define themselves as "a convinced atheist", placing Iceland among the top 10 atheist populations in the world.[177]

The majority is religious, and the whole country is still cruising along on it's Christian morals.
Give atheism a few generations, and it will turn into a hell hole.

Give them an atheistic dictator, and there is instant hell to pay.
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:25:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:07:54 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

Bs"d

Wow, that's impressive! Only one homocide.

But maybe you forgot the mention that in all of Iceland are living less than 5% of the people of New York City?

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Icelanders have freedom of religion under the Constitution of Iceland, though the Church of Iceland, a Lutheran body, is the state church. The Registers Iceland keeps account of the religious affiliation of every Icelandic citizen. In 2015, Icelanders were divided into religious groups as follows:

73.8% members of the Church of Iceland.
11.7% members of some other Christian denomination.
7.1% other and not specified
5.6% unaffiliated
1.5% members of non-Christian denomination.
0.3% members of the Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association

Iceland is a very secular country: as with other Nordic nations, religious attendance is relatively low.[174][175] The above statistics represent administrative membership of religious organisations, which does not necessarily reflect the belief demographics of the population of Iceland. According to a study published in 2001, 23% of the inhabitants are either atheist or agnostic.[176] A Gallup poll conducted in 2012 found that 57% of Icelanders considered themselves "a religious person", 31% consider themselves "a non religious person", while 10% define themselves as "a convinced atheist", placing Iceland among the top 10 atheist populations in the world.[177]

The majority is religious, and the whole country is still cruising along on it's Christian morals.
Give atheism a few generations, and it will turn into a hell hole.

Give them an atheistic dictator, and there is instant hell to pay.

Told ya so. hahahaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God,

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world. You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world. You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive. Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )

The fact also remains that there are people saying that atheism per se allows a society where everything is allowed. I can give you three people on DDO claiming this.

Here: http://www.debate.org...
Here: http://www.debate.org...
And here: http://www.debate.org...

These people love to draw straight lines to Mao Zedong/Joseph Stalin/Adolf Hitler and atheism, where they totally have forgotten of the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman empire, and the Tutsi genocide of 94, in the country of Rwanda where 95% said religion is important for their lives. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )

In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Great! See now how everything isn't black and white?

Your point is?

...already stated above in this post I'm doing now.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:33:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:07:54 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

Bs"d

Wow, that's impressive! Only one homocide.

But maybe you forgot the mention that in all of Iceland are living less than 5% of the people of New York City?

Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants, the same ratio as the crimestruck country of Brazil (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). The argument of "population easier to control" doesn't hold up.

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Icelanders have freedom of religion under the Constitution of Iceland, though the Church of Iceland, a Lutheran body, is the state church. The Registers Iceland keeps account of the religious affiliation of every Icelandic citizen. In 2015, Icelanders were divided into religious groups as follows:

73.8% members of the Church of Iceland.
11.7% members of some other Christian denomination.
7.1% other and not specified
5.6% unaffiliated
1.5% members of non-Christian denomination.
0.3% members of the Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association

Iceland is a very secular country: as with other Nordic nations, religious attendance is relatively low.[174][175] The above statistics represent administrative membership of religious organisations, which does not necessarily reflect the belief demographics of the population of Iceland. According to a study published in 2001, 23% of the inhabitants are either atheist or agnostic.[176] A Gallup poll conducted in 2012 found that 57% of Icelanders considered themselves "a religious person", 31% consider themselves "a non religious person", while 10% define themselves as "a convinced atheist", placing Iceland among the top 10 atheist populations in the world.[177]

Slightly other numbers than what I had, but still on the top 10 atheist populations in the world. This should in conservatively religious peoples' eyes make Iceland on the top 10 most crimestruck countries as well.

The majority is religious, and the whole country is still cruising along on it's Christian morals.

It should still be on the top 10 most crimestruck countries in your world... On that top 10, you will find heavily religious countries like Venezuela and South Sudan instead.

Give atheism a few generations, and it will turn into a hell hole.

Give them an atheistic dictator, and there is instant hell to pay.

So then it's just an unsubstantiated myth that the atheist country of UK has one of the best healthcares in the world? The HDI index measures the physical wellbeing of populations, and the most atheist countries are also those who are in the top of it.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:35:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:07:54 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
Give them an atheistic dictator, and there is instant hell to pay.

LOOOOOL I read "atheist doctor", joke's on me.

But well, I guess Ghaddafi and Mubarak and all Christian kings back in the Medieval Ages were the most benign people you could find. I mean, they were religious, how in tarnation would they possibly been bad people?!?!
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.

As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 1:06:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God,

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world.

Glad you think so

You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world.

I agree.

You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive.#

Of course

Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

No, But with atheism there is no grounds for morality, we simply do as we wish, there is no punishment for the wrong actions we commit, as long as no one finds out,

With theism there is a foundation for morality, which does not rely on mans whims.

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )

Brazil has 200 million population, Are you serious? Compared with 324 thousand of Iceland.

Geez you can sure twist things, The ratio of policing per person is not what I meant, but if the population is tiny, such as Iceland's, it brings community's more together and makes crime harder to commit

The fact also remains that there are people saying that atheism per se allows a society where everything is allowed. I can give you three people on DDO claiming this.

An atheist society does not permit every and any immoral act, Because it is still governed by man made laws, and these laws do not permit such actions, But under atheism as a whole, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing raping and stealing, it' all depends on our own subjective whims, if there is no arching authority then who is to say what is right and what is wrong,

Except from William Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris,

To conclude, I want to quote from a remarkable article that appeared in the Duke Law Journal, by, uh, Arthur Allen Leff, called "Unspeakable Ethics, Unnatural Law." Dr. Leff"s difficulty is the same as Dr. Harris"s. He wants to find a foundation for moral values and duties, in this case, for the law, that would be, uh, independent of human opinion"it would be objective and it would be in the world. And he can"t find one. He says any attempt to ground values is open to the playground bully"s retort, "Who sez?" And this is how his article concludes:

All I can say is this: It looks as if we are all we have. . . . Only if ethics is something unspeakable by us [that is, something transcendent], could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things now stand, everything is up for grabs.

Nevertheless:
Napalming babies is bad.
Starving the poor is wicked.
Buying and selling each other is depraved. . . .
There is in the world such a thing as evil.
(All together now:) Sez who?
God help us.20

Harris lost this debate badly.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org...

but under atheism there is nothing wrong with raping, and killing, and stealing,apart from the laws which govern us which forbid us to do such acts, But if the law changes then it's Ok.


Here: http://www.debate.org...
Here: http://www.debate.org...
And here: http://www.debate.org...

These people love to draw straight lines to Mao Zedong/Joseph Stalin/Adolf Hitler and atheism, where they totally have forgotten of the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman empire, and the Tutsi genocide of 94, in the country of Rwanda where 95% said religion is important for their lives. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )

In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Great! See now how everything isn't black and white?

Exactly.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 1:41:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 1:06:45 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM, Jovian wrote:

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world.

Glad you think so



You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world.

I agree.



You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive.#

Of course


Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

No, But with atheism there is no grounds for morality, we simply do as we wish, there is no punishment for the wrong actions we commit, as long as no one finds out,

With theism there is a foundation for morality, which does not rely on mans whims.

We phrase "morality" somewhat different than you do. If we would see all kinds of thing as allowed, tell me why there aren't bloody wars in the style of Thirty Years War going on in northern Europe, probably the most atheist area in the world?

Also, I could create a religion which would have the commandment of "Kill as many people you can, in the name of god". Wouldn't this be paradoxical in your world? All religions do not have the same morality.

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )


Brazil has 200 million population, Are you serious? Compared with 324 thousand of Iceland.

You talked about possibility to police an area. Brazil should have the same ability given they have the same ratio.

Geez you can sure twist things, The ratio of policing per person is not what I meant, but if the population is tiny, such as Iceland's, it brings community's more together and makes crime harder to commit

Then let us move on to Japan. 127 million inhabitants, EXTREMELY much lower crime rates than pretty much anywhere in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org... ). 24% of all Japs answered religion was important for their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). They surely have some problems with groping on the public transport, suicides, and a chauvinist attitude agaist female rape victims, but the fact remains that the crimes you religious people connect atheism to happens more seldom.


An atheist society does not permit every and any immoral act, Because it is still governed by man made laws, and these laws do not permit such actions, But under atheism as a whole, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing

You don't need a holy book to understand that killing results in that you are unfairly taking away an innocent person's life and hurting this victim's family and friends for ever.

raping

You don't need a holy book to understand why a woman (or man) has the veto right of gaining access to said person's most private and holy area. You also don't need a holy book to understand how a rape victim mostly together with his/her family has to suffer from PTSD for a long long while afterwards.

and stealing

You don't need a holy book to understand why people should own things you have made yourself the right to own, and you don't need a holy book to understand how people get sad when they get their property taken away from them.

, it' all depends on our own subjective whims, if there is no arching authority then who is to say what is right and what is wrong,

Here however we have branched into a little debate whether humans are inherently good or not. At this evolutional point, I believe humans need to learn what is good and not.

Except from William Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris,



To conclude, I want to quote from a remarkable article that appeared in the Duke Law Journal, by, uh, Arthur Allen Leff, called "Unspeakable Ethics, Unnatural Law." Dr. Leff"s difficulty is the same as Dr. Harris"s. He wants to find a foundation for moral values and duties, in this case, for the law, that would be, uh, independent of human opinion"it would be objective and it would be in the world. And he can"t find one. He says any attempt to ground values is open to the playground bully"s retort,

Semi-true. One thing is shared by most people, what a majority would become sad of having to deal with, this is bad. This one could be twisted in absurdum though.

"Who sez?" And this is how his article concludes:


All I can say is this: It looks as if we are all we have. . . . Only if ethics is something unspeakable by us [that is, something transcendent], could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things now stand, everything is up for grabs.

This would however seem like you are abandoning your "No morality without God" stance on this.

Nevertheless:
Napalming babies is bad.
Starving the poor is wicked.
Buying and selling each other is depraved. . . .
There is in the world such a thing as evil.
(All together now:) Sez who?
God help us.20

God is a projection of what different cultures in the world saw as good. Sometimes this "God says" could be extremely outdated"

Harris lost this debate badly.




Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org...




but under atheism there is nothing wrong with raping, and killing, and stealing,apart from the laws which govern us which forbid us to do such acts, But if the law changes then it's Ok.

I don't know any atheist who would commit one of these things without repenting forever.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 1:45:13 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

It's not entirely true what he is saying. Japan is a country with crime rates that are extremely low, and this country only has a 25% amount of people saying religion is important in their lives. And this country's success of crime management is mostly a result of management by fear.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/31/2016 10:15:55 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 12:07:54 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

Bs"d

Wow, that's impressive! Only one homocide.

But maybe you forgot the mention that in all of Iceland are living less than 5% of the people of New York City?

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Icelanders have freedom of religion under the Constitution of Iceland, though the Church of Iceland, a Lutheran body, is the state church. The Registers Iceland keeps account of the religious affiliation of every Icelandic citizen. In 2015, Icelanders were divided into religious groups as follows:

73.8% members of the Church of Iceland.
11.7% members of some other Christian denomination.
7.1% other and not specified
5.6% unaffiliated
1.5% members of non-Christian denomination.
0.3% members of the Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association

Iceland is a very secular country: as with other Nordic nations, religious attendance is relatively low.[174][175] The above statistics represent administrative membership of religious organisations, which does not necessarily reflect the belief demographics of the population of Iceland. According to a study published in 2001, 23% of the inhabitants are either atheist or agnostic.[176] A Gallup poll conducted in 2012 found that 57% of Icelanders considered themselves "a religious person", 31% consider themselves "a non religious person", while 10% define themselves as "a convinced atheist", placing Iceland among the top 10 atheist populations in the world.[177]

The majority is religious, and the whole country is still cruising along on it's Christian morals.
Give atheism a few generations, and it will turn into a hell hole.

Give them an atheistic dictator, and there is instant hell to pay.

Despite proof that a belief in God is not needed for morality, it amazes me at the lengths that religious people will go to to deny evidence that contradicts their theories on how they think the world would work.

Its as if they WANT their dire predictions to be true to the point that evidence and facts are ignored.....or is it fear?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).

Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.

Well done.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 1:41:43 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:06:45 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM, Jovian wrote:

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world.

Glad you think so



You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world.

I agree.



You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive.#

Of course


Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

No, But with atheism there is no grounds for morality, we simply do as we wish, there is no punishment for the wrong actions we commit, as long as no one finds out,

With theism there is a foundation for morality, which does not rely on mans whims.

We phrase "morality" somewhat different than you do. If we would see all kinds of thing as allowed, tell me why there aren't bloody wars in the style of Thirty Years War going on in northern Europe, probably the most atheist area in the world?

Also, I could create a religion which would have the commandment of "Kill as many people you can, in the name of god". Wouldn't this be paradoxical in your world? All religions do not have the same morality.

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )


Brazil has 200 million population, Are you serious? Compared with 324 thousand of Iceland.

You talked about possibility to police an area. Brazil should have the same ability given they have the same ratio.

Geez you can sure twist things, The ratio of policing per person is not what I meant, but if the population is tiny, such as Iceland's, it brings community's more together and makes crime harder to commit

Then let us move on to Japan. 127 million inhabitants, EXTREMELY much lower crime rates than pretty much anywhere in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org... ). 24% of all Japs answered religion was important for their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). They surely have some problems with groping on the public transport, suicides, and a chauvinist attitude agaist female rape victims, but the fact remains that the crimes you religious people connect atheism to happens more seldom.


An atheist society does not permit every and any immoral act, Because it is still governed by man made laws, and these laws do not permit such actions, But under atheism as a whole, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing

You don't need a holy book to understand that killing results in that you are unfairly taking away an innocent person's life and hurting this victim's family and friends for ever.

raping

You don't need a holy book to understand why a woman (or man) has the veto right of gaining access to said person's most private and holy area. You also don't need a holy book to understand how a rape victim mostly together with his/her family has to suffer from PTSD for a long long while afterwards.

and stealing

You don't need a holy book to understand why people should own things you have made yourself the right to own, and you don't need a holy book to understand how people get sad when they get their property taken away from them.

, it' all depends on our own subjective whims, if there is no arching authority then who is to say what is right and what is wrong,

Here however we have branched into a little debate whether humans are inherently good or not. At this evolutional point, I believe humans need to learn what is good and not.

Except from William Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris,



To conclude, I want to quote from a remarkable article that appeared in the Duke Law Journal, by, uh, Arthur Allen Leff, called "Unspeakable Ethics, Unnatural Law." Dr. Leff"s difficulty is the same as Dr. Harris"s. He wants to find a foundation for moral values and duties, in this case, for the law, that would be, uh, independent of human opinion"it would be objective and it would be in the world. And he can"t find one. He says any attempt to ground values is open to the playground bully"s retort,

Semi-true. One thing is shared by most people, what a majority would become sad of having to deal with, this is bad. This one could be twisted in absurdum though.

"Who sez?" And this is how his article concludes:


All I can say is this: It looks as if we are all we have. . . . Only if ethics is something unspeakable by us [that is, something transcendent], could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things now stand, everything is up for grabs.

This would however seem like you are abandoning your "No morality without God" stance on this.

Nevertheless:
Napalming babies is bad.
Starving the poor is wicked.
Buying and selling each other is depraved. . . .
There is in the world such a thing as evil.
(All together now:) Sez who?
God help us.20

God is a projection of what different cultures in the world saw as good. Sometimes this "God says" could be extremely outdated"

Harris lost this debate badly.




Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org...




but under atheism there is nothing wrong with raping, and killing, and stealing,apart from the laws which govern us which forbid us to do such acts, But if the law changes then it's Ok.

I don't know any atheist who would commit one of these things without repenting forever.

I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 5:55:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:


I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.

Hi John, I hope this article helps explain some of that...

"Morality is present in all societies in some form. There were moral people and moral codes long before the Hebrews came along and much earlier than Jesus. If morality comes from the teachings of god, who taught the ancient Chinese their morals? Who taught the Iroquois Indians, before Columbus? Muslims claim that their morality comes directly from god as written in the Koran. Mormons teach that their morality comes from god as written in the book of Mormon. The Hopi have a well-developed moral and ethical code, but it is not what you or I would recognize. While all of these groups claim that some god gave them their morality, the fact is that no society can live long without rules for successful interaction. No gods gave them these moral rules; tradition and the need to live peacefully within a larger group, brought these about.

You live in a society that has well developed rules and laws that came from centuries of secular law and government. You would be hard pressed to find much in our current laws that was directly related to The Decalogue or the 613 commandments found in the Old Testament. Those were laws and rules as foreign to us today as the Hopi moral code is to the U.S. legal code. They are hardly related.

Little if any of your day-to-day behavior is governed by anything you can find in a holy book. Be kind to each other, is a pretty universal value. Most cultures have some version of that. It existed long before holy books were written. It did not come from any god."

http://kidswithoutgod.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 5:58:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).


Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.


Well done.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou so much. You don't know how much this means to me. The prospect of never having to deal with your inanities again opens so many glorious vistas.
I just hope and pray (lol) that like all theists, you are a man of your word
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 6:08:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:41:43 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:06:45 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM, Jovian wrote:

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world.

Glad you think so



You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world.

I agree.



You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive.#

Of course


Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

No, But with atheism there is no grounds for morality, we simply do as we wish, there is no punishment for the wrong actions we commit, as long as no one finds out,

With theism there is a foundation for morality, which does not rely on mans whims.

We phrase "morality" somewhat different than you do. If we would see all kinds of thing as allowed, tell me why there aren't bloody wars in the style of Thirty Years War going on in northern Europe, probably the most atheist area in the world?

Also, I could create a religion which would have the commandment of "Kill as many people you can, in the name of god". Wouldn't this be paradoxical in your world? All religions do not have the same morality.

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )


Brazil has 200 million population, Are you serious? Compared with 324 thousand of Iceland.

You talked about possibility to police an area. Brazil should have the same ability given they have the same ratio.

Geez you can sure twist things, The ratio of policing per person is not what I meant, but if the population is tiny, such as Iceland's, it brings community's more together and makes crime harder to commit

Then let us move on to Japan. 127 million inhabitants, EXTREMELY much lower crime rates than pretty much anywhere in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org... ). 24% of all Japs answered religion was important for their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). They surely have some problems with groping on the public transport, suicides, and a chauvinist attitude agaist female rape victims, but the fact remains that the crimes you religious people connect atheism to happens more seldom.


An atheist society does not permit every and any immoral act, Because it is still governed by man made laws, and these laws do not permit such actions, But under atheism as a whole, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing

You don't need a holy book to understand that killing results in that you are unfairly taking away an innocent person's life and hurting this victim's family and friends for ever.

raping

You don't need a holy book to understand why a woman (or man) has the veto right of gaining access to said person's most private and holy area. You also don't need a holy book to understand how a rape victim mostly together with his/her family has to suffer from PTSD for a long long while afterwards.

and stealing

You don't need a holy book to understand why people should own things you have made yourself the right to own, and you don't need a holy book to understand how people get sad when they get their property taken away from them.

, it' all depends on our own subjective whims, if there is no arching authority then who is to say what is right and what is wrong,

Here however we have branched into a little debate whether humans are inherently good or not. At this evolutional point, I believe humans need to learn what is good and not.

Except from William Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris,



To conclude, I want to quote from a remarkable article that appeared in the Duke Law Journal, by, uh, Arthur Allen Leff, called "Unspeakable Ethics, Unnatural Law." Dr. Leff"s difficulty is the same as Dr. Harris"s. He wants to find a foundation for moral values and duties, in this case, for the law, that would be, uh, independent of human opinion"it would be objective and it would be in the world. And he can"t find one. He says any attempt to ground values is open to the playground bully"s retort,

Semi-true. One thing is shared by most people, what a majority would become sad of having to deal with, this is bad. This one could be twisted in absurdum though.

"Who sez?" And this is how his article concludes:


All I can say is this: It looks as if we are all we have. . . . Only if ethics is something unspeakable by us [that is, something transcendent], could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things now stand, everything is up for grabs.

This would however seem like you are abandoning your "No morality without God" stance on this.

Nevertheless:
Napalming babies is bad.
Starving the poor is wicked.
Buying and selling each other is depraved. . . .
There is in the world such a thing as evil.
(All together now:) Sez who?
God help us.20

God is a projection of what different cultures in the world saw as good. Sometimes this "God says" could be extremely outdated"

Harris lost this debate badly.




Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org...




but under atheism there is nothing wrong with raping, and killing, and stealing,apart from the laws which govern us which forbid us to do such acts, But if the law changes then it's Ok.

I don't know any atheist who would commit one of these things without repenting forever.


I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.

Wrong. Under ALL ideologies and their branches, there are arbitrary rules of conduct. And there will always be individual perspectives on how to interpret an ideology. Some people see Christian rules as "do not kill ever ever ever", some people see it as "It's totally OK to kill unbelievers though". Otherwise, why did bloody clashes between Protestants and Catholics occur, if religion is so much about morality? Also, just because atheists don't have something divine to refer to, does that exclude a morality fetched from some ideology that hasn't anything with supernatural beliefs to do?

This topic is not black and white, as you can see. If you still think it is, show me precisely why.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 6:11:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).


Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.


Well done.

Concession in style.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/1/2016 11:04:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God

Also, in an "atheist country with no morals", it would not matter that there would be any police at all, since this police would with the same token also be "atheists of no morals", condoning rape and murder.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:11:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 5:55:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:


I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.

Hi John, I hope this article helps explain some of that...

"Morality is present in all societies in some form. There were moral people and moral codes long before the Hebrews came along and much earlier than Jesus. If morality comes from the teachings of god, who taught the ancient Chinese their morals? Who taught the Iroquois Indians, before Columbus? Muslims claim that their morality comes directly from god as written in the Koran. Mormons teach that their morality comes from god as written in the book of Mormon. The Hopi have a well-developed moral and ethical code, but it is not what you or I would recognize. While all of these groups claim that some god gave them their morality, the fact is that no society can live long without rules for successful interaction. No gods gave them these moral rules; tradition and the need to live peacefully within a larger group, brought these about.

You live in a society that has well developed rules and laws that came from centuries of secular law and government. You would be hard pressed to find much in our current laws that was directly related to The Decalogue or the 613 commandments found in the Old Testament. Those were laws and rules as foreign to us today as the Hopi moral code is to the U.S. legal code. They are hardly related.

Little if any of your day-to-day behavior is governed by anything you can find in a holy book. Be kind to each other, is a pretty universal value. Most cultures have some version of that. It existed long before holy books were written. It did not come from any god."

http://kidswithoutgod.com...

Much of this misses the point, The point is that some things are objectively wrong regardless what it's society thinks or from what age or era it comes from.

That's the point, what makes something objectively wrong, even if people think it is right?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:14:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 6:08:09 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:41:43 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:06:45 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:27:12 PM, Jovian wrote:

I never made any kind of conclusions. You can believe in a god and be the nicest man in the world.

Glad you think so



You can be an atheist and be the nicest man in the world.

I agree.



You could also be one of these two and be the worst person alive.#

Of course


Some of you religious people although likes to say that the barrier between a nice human and an ape on crack commiting crimes is the thought saying "I think a God exists".

No, But with atheism there is no grounds for morality, we simply do as we wish, there is no punishment for the wrong actions we commit, as long as no one finds out,

With theism there is a foundation for morality, which does not rely on mans whims.

We phrase "morality" somewhat different than you do. If we would see all kinds of thing as allowed, tell me why there aren't bloody wars in the style of Thirty Years War going on in northern Europe, probably the most atheist area in the world?

Also, I could create a religion which would have the commandment of "Kill as many people you can, in the name of god". Wouldn't this be paradoxical in your world? All religions do not have the same morality.

The thing about the population easier to police is not applicable. Iceland has 211 police officers per 100 000 inhabitants. Brazil has the same ratio, and they have big problems with criminality. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org... )


Brazil has 200 million population, Are you serious? Compared with 324 thousand of Iceland.

You talked about possibility to police an area. Brazil should have the same ability given they have the same ratio.

Geez you can sure twist things, The ratio of policing per person is not what I meant, but if the population is tiny, such as Iceland's, it brings community's more together and makes crime harder to commit

Then let us move on to Japan. 127 million inhabitants, EXTREMELY much lower crime rates than pretty much anywhere in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org... ). 24% of all Japs answered religion was important for their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). They surely have some problems with groping on the public transport, suicides, and a chauvinist attitude agaist female rape victims, but the fact remains that the crimes you religious people connect atheism to happens more seldom.


An atheist society does not permit every and any immoral act, Because it is still governed by man made laws, and these laws do not permit such actions, But under atheism as a whole, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing

You don't need a holy book to understand that killing results in that you are unfairly taking away an innocent person's life and hurting this victim's family and friends for ever.

raping

You don't need a holy book to understand why a woman (or man) has the veto right of gaining access to said person's most private and holy area. You also don't need a holy book to understand how a rape victim mostly together with his/her family has to suffer from PTSD for a long long while afterwards.

and stealing

You don't need a holy book to understand why people should own things you have made yourself the right to own, and you don't need a holy book to understand how people get sad when they get their property taken away from them.

, it' all depends on our own subjective whims, if there is no arching authority then who is to say what is right and what is wrong,

Here however we have branched into a little debate whether humans are inherently good or not. At this evolutional point, I believe humans need to learn what is good and not.

Except from William Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris,



To conclude, I want to quote from a remarkable article that appeared in the Duke Law Journal, by, uh, Arthur Allen Leff, called "Unspeakable Ethics, Unnatural Law." Dr. Leff"s difficulty is the same as Dr. Harris"s. He wants to find a foundation for moral values and duties, in this case, for the law, that would be, uh, independent of human opinion"it would be objective and it would be in the world. And he can"t find one. He says any attempt to ground values is open to the playground bully"s retort,

Semi-true. One thing is shared by most people, what a majority would become sad of having to deal with, this is bad. This one could be twisted in absurdum though.

"Who sez?" And this is how his article concludes:


All I can say is this: It looks as if we are all we have. . . . Only if ethics is something unspeakable by us [that is, something transcendent], could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things now stand, everything is up for grabs.

This would however seem like you are abandoning your "No morality without God" stance on this.

Nevertheless:
Napalming babies is bad.
Starving the poor is wicked.
Buying and selling each other is depraved. . . .
There is in the world such a thing as evil.
(All together now:) Sez who?
God help us.20

God is a projection of what different cultures in the world saw as good. Sometimes this "God says" could be extremely outdated"

Harris lost this debate badly.




Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org...




but under atheism there is nothing wrong with raping, and killing, and stealing,apart from the laws which govern us which forbid us to do such acts, But if the law changes then it's Ok.

I don't know any atheist who would commit one of these things without repenting forever.


I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.

Wrong. Under ALL ideologies and their branches, there are arbitrary rules of conduct. And there will always be individual perspectives on how to interpret an ideology. Some people see Christian rules as "do not kill ever ever ever", some people see it as "It's totally OK to kill unbelievers though". Otherwise, why did bloody clashes between Protestants and Catholics occur, if religion is so much about morality? Also, just because atheists don't have something divine to refer to, does that exclude a morality fetched from some ideology that hasn't anything with supernatural beliefs to do?

This topic is not black and white, as you can see. If you still think it is, show me precisely why.

I am afraid you have misunderstood, It doesn't matter what people think is right or wrong, why? because some things are just objectively wrong regardless of our opinions,

Someone might think it's ok to molest a minor, but just thinking it doesn't make it so, it is so because i
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:16:51 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 6:11:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).


Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.


Well done.

Concession in style.

Jovian, please accept my hearty congratulations for joining me on John's "La la la la la -- I can't hear you" list.

So far I've seen nobody on that list whose company I do not enjoy, and whose posts I do not appreciate and respect.

I'd thank John for his diligent efforts in singling out these fine members except... la la la la la he can't hear me. :D
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:37:44 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 6:16:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/1/2016 6:11:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).


Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.


Well done.

Concession in style.

Jovian, please accept my hearty congratulations for joining me on John's "La la la la la -- I can't hear you" list.

So far I've seen nobody on that list whose company I do not enjoy, and whose posts I do not appreciate and respect.

I'd thank John for his diligent efforts in singling out these fine members except... la la la la la he can't hear me. :D

You ignorant stupid conceited and malignant moronic atheist,

Do your bloody research you imbecile.

I was addressing Desmac, ( Who has the mentality of a 9 year old. ) NOT Jovian, Jovian is able to have a civil discussion without hurling insults, unlike you, thus is all you deserve in return.

How does that egg on your face feel you lazy ignorant and malignant conceited punk.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:40:15 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 6:11:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:14:55 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 1:15:54 PM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 12:51:08 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:49:57 AM, desmac wrote:
At 1/31/2016 11:22:30 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/31/2016 10:32:23 AM, Jovian wrote:
I've seen many people now nag about how atheists don't have any moral and thus see everything as allowed to do, even killing people. So, let's make a little research about the country of Iceland.

19.2% of Icelanders said according to a study of 2006 that "God must exist; otherwise life would have no purpose." And only 9.4% say "God created the world and runs it." (source: http://sidmennt.is... ). Thus, Iceland has a 80% majority of atheists.

Logically, this would follow up with crime statistics of astronomical amounts. I mean, without God, anything is allowed, right?

"According to the 2011 Global Study on Homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Iceland's homicide rate between 1999-2009 never went above 1.8 per 100,000 population on any given year. On the other hand, the US had homicide rates between 5.0 and 5.8 per 100,000 population during that same stretch."

"Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
Denmark 47
Iceland 1
UK 724
US 15,241
"

"In addition, there are, comparatively speaking, few hard drugs in Iceland.
According to a 2012 UNODC report, use among 15-64-year-olds in Iceland of cocaine was 0.9%, of ecstasy 0.5%, and of amphetamines 0.7%.
"

Let us now compare this atheist hellhole Iceland with a country full of God, Venezuela. This is a country where 80% said their religion was important in their lives (source: https://en.wikipedia.org... ). This should be a better country, right?

https://www.osac.gov...

"Venezuela remained one of the deadliest countries in the world for 2014."

It is also the country with the highest crime rate, whereas Iceland is placed at number 97 of 117 on the list of the countries with the highest crime rates http://www.numbeo.com...

So why isn't Iceland a hellhole where everything is allowed? I mean, 80% are atheists!?


Look good for atheists huh, not that the population is tiny and easier to police, it's because they have no belief in God, In comparison another country with a small population and a large number of believers in God is Cyprus, and Guess what, they have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

Your point is?

The point would seem to be that belief in supernatural beings is not necessary for, and can be a hindrance to, human morality.

Do your unsubstantiated figures regarding Cyprus refer to Northern Cyprus (Turkish) , The Republic of Cyprus, or the island as a whole?

Then it's a silly point, Crime rates are probably low because it has a tiny population which makes the community more together. Much like Cyprus.


As northern Cyprus is not officially recognised as the Turks are illegal occupants. it excludes them.

Do you have statistics that prove the correlation of the tiny population of Iceland to its low crime rates, or are you jumping to conclusions?

You have not given your source for the crime figures of the Republic of Cyprus, (it wouldn't be the Landover Baptist site would it?).


Because you offer nothing but sincere pettiness

You have just earned yourself a life time exclusion from me interacting with you further.


Well done.

Concession in style.

Are you taunting or are you just living in hope?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2016 6:54:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 6:11:40 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:55:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/1/2016 5:25:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:


I'm not to sure where this is leading or what you are trying to prove, But in short, Under atheism there is no foundation for morality. However you put it.
Under atheism it all depends on what man wants in that moment, One dictator might deem it good to commit genocide and thus it become right under his rule. Unless of course there is objective morality.

Hi John, I hope this article helps explain some of that...

"Morality is present in all societies in some form. There were moral people and moral codes long before the Hebrews came along and much earlier than Jesus. If morality comes from the teachings of god, who taught the ancient Chinese their morals? Who taught the Iroquois Indians, before Columbus? Muslims claim that their morality comes directly from god as written in the Koran. Mormons teach that their morality comes from god as written in the book of Mormon. The Hopi have a well-developed moral and ethical code, but it is not what you or I would recognize. While all of these groups claim that some god gave them their morality, the fact is that no society can live long without rules for successful interaction. No gods gave them these moral rules; tradition and the need to live peacefully within a larger group, brought these about.

You live in a society that has well developed rules and laws that came from centuries of secular law and government. You would be hard pressed to find much in our current laws that was directly related to The Decalogue or the 613 commandments found in the Old Testament. Those were laws and rules as foreign to us today as the Hopi moral code is to the U.S. legal code. They are hardly related.

Little if any of your day-to-day behavior is governed by anything you can find in a holy book. Be kind to each other, is a pretty universal value. Most cultures have some version of that. It existed long before holy books were written. It did not come from any god."

http://kidswithoutgod.com...

Much of this misses the point, The point is that some things are objectively wrong regardless what it's society thinks or from what age or era it comes from.

I think the point the article was trying to make is that whatever morals we've ascribed over ages, they have always originated from people trying to live together peacefully, which means common themes will always prevail, such as, "Thou shalt not kill".

That's the point, what makes something objectively wrong, even if people think it is right?

That's a good question, John, probably one that deserves it's own thread as it can and should be explored.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth