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Free will paradox

PoliticallyCorrect
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10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.
popculturepooka
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10/29/2010 10:14:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
why would someone knowing what you are going to do before you do it negste (libertarian) free will? that does not imply you couldn't have done otherwise (especially if that someone is a God with knowledge of counterfactuals) nor does it imply that that knowledge causes you to do x or y.
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tvellalott
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10/29/2010 11:09:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.

God knows what you are going to do by knowing every possible scenario. An omniscient being doesn't think the same way that someone with an extremely finite mind does.
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mattrodstrom
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10/30/2010 6:19:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 11:09:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
God knows what you are going to do by knowing every possible scenario. An omniscient being doesn't think the same way that someone with an extremely finite mind does.

How does God Know what particular you will choose???

He knows by Utterly understanding Your Nature/Your Soul and Utterly understanding the nature of the world that your Nature/Soul will encounter.

In context, with the two natures mixed together as they are, he Utterly understands how they're interwoven... and how they'll interweave in the future.

THAT... or the whole: God resides Outside of Time so his Perspective is different... and see's all creation, Throughout all time, things together as an Eternal Present. business
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/30/2010 6:29:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 6:19:37 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/29/2010 11:09:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
God knows what you are going to do by knowing every possible scenario. An omniscient being doesn't think the same way that someone with an extremely finite mind does.

How does God Know what particular you will choose???

He knows by Utterly understanding Your Nature/Your Soul and Utterly understanding the nature of the world that your Nature/Soul will encounter.

In context, with the two natures mixed together as they are, he Utterly understands how they're interwoven... and how they'll interweave in the future.

THAT... or the whole: God resides Outside of Time so his Perspective is different... and see's all creation, Throughout all time, things together as an Eternal Present. business

OH!..

and, BOTH of these explanations makes your choices Utterly Determined from a Broad ( godly ;) perspective... [even if you do choose it's ROOTED in your nature and the nature of things... OR "you" are Ultimately Fully made Throughout All Time by the Hand of God himself!... GOD MADE the Creation/the Eternal Present.. As it is.

You see it temporally.. but that's not how it is.

God made You/existence WITHOUT Time... it all really exists without time... You are as you ARE.. "your Choices" were Ultimately hammered out by God when he made the Eternal Present.

so... that's why Free will's incompatible with an all-knowing God.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
Posts: 11,793
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10/30/2010 6:37:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 10:14:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
why would someone knowing what you are going to do before you do it negste (libertarian) free will? that does not imply you couldn't have done otherwise (especially if that someone is a God with knowledge of counterfactuals) nor does it imply that that knowledge causes you to do x or y.

being designed by a fella and then doing exactly as he designed you to do is free will?
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Floid
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10/30/2010 6:52:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 10:14:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
why would someone knowing what you are going to do before you do it negste (libertarian) free will? that does not imply you couldn't have done otherwise (especially if that someone is a God with knowledge of counterfactuals) nor does it imply that that knowledge causes you to do x or y.

Well, there is the other caveat that God is always right. So the basic idea goes like:

1.) God knows what you are going to do in the future.
2.) God is always right.
3.) You have to do what God already knows you are going to do, otherwise 2.) would not be true.

The general religious response to this I have seen is that God exists outside of time and therefore whenever you come to a particular decision point, God can jump into the future and see what you decision you made and then jump back to the present and have knowledge of that decision without negating your free will.
PoliticallyCorrect
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10/30/2010 11:22:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 6:37:09 AM, badger wrote:
At 10/29/2010 10:14:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
why would someone knowing what you are going to do before you do it negste (libertarian) free will? that does not imply you couldn't have done otherwise (especially if that someone is a God with knowledge of counterfactuals) nor does it imply that that knowledge causes you to do x or y.

being designed by a fella and then doing exactly as he designed you to do is free will?
Always love it when someone says that :)
The bible has many contradictions, its unparalleled to anything, but so does any and every religion. But yeah, if he chooses what we look like, body characteristics, genotypes, and so much more. Free will is in itself a broad term, which which is almost showed that the bible is wrong just by that, but I don't know.
PoliticallyCorrect
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10/30/2010 11:25:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yet, that means that decision has already been made, even though it seems that simple. If he knows your going die at set date, then that means its going to happen, no matter what, meaning its what I like to call 'Set In Stone'. God has it set in stone, yet he lets us choose.
popculturepooka
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10/30/2010 11:52:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
@badger,

uh, what? presumably, one way God designed us is to have a relationship with him...yet there are people who not have a relationship with him. so what does that do for your rebuttal?
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tvellalott
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10/30/2010 2:34:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 6:29:13 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/30/2010 6:19:37 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/29/2010 11:09:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
God knows what you are going to do by knowing every possible scenario. An omniscient being doesn't think the same way that someone with an extremely finite mind does.

How does God Know what particular you will choose???

He knows by Utterly understanding Your Nature/Your Soul and Utterly understanding the nature of the world that your Nature/Soul will encounter.

In context, with the two natures mixed together as they are, he Utterly understands how they're interwoven... and how they'll interweave in the future.

THAT... or the whole: God resides Outside of Time so his Perspective is different... and see's all creation, Throughout all time, things together as an Eternal Present. business

OH!..

and, BOTH of these explanations makes your choices Utterly Determined from a Broad ( godly ;) perspective... [even if you do choose it's ROOTED in your nature and the nature of things... OR "you" are Ultimately Fully made Throughout All Time by the Hand of God himself!... GOD MADE the Creation/the Eternal Present.. As it is.

You see it temporally.. but that's not how it is.

God made You/existence WITHOUT Time... it all really exists without time... You are as you ARE.. "your Choices" were Ultimately hammered out by God when he made the Eternal Present.

so... that's why Free will's incompatible with an all-knowing God.

God is also Omni-potent, meaning he has the power to both know everything and give Humans free will.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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jharry
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10/30/2010 5:33:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.

How does God knowing what is going to happen take away your free will?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
PoliticallyCorrect
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10/30/2010 6:41:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 5:33:41 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.

How does God knowing what is going to happen take away your free will?
If he knows whats going to happen, then that certain instance WILL happen, meaning it can't be changed, thus throwing out the window 'Free Will'
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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10/30/2010 8:02:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 2:34:48 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 10/30/2010 6:29:13 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
so... that's why Free will's incompatible with an all-knowing God.

God is also Omni-potent, meaning he has the power to both know everything and give Humans free will.

lol, maybe you can address my argument.

... or do you mean to say God Transcends Logic?... and so... you needn't explain how your will is "free" in the face of Rebuttals...
you simply need to read your bible?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
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10/30/2010 8:10:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 11:52:27 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
@badger,

uh, what? presumably, one way God designed us is to have a relationship with him...yet there are people who not have a relationship with him. so what does that do for your rebuttal?

i dunno. i'm fairly drunk again.. but it sounds like you're fairly drunk too.. so.. we should go take a ball of heroin...
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mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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10/30/2010 10:08:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 6:41:43 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
At 10/30/2010 5:33:41 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.

How does God knowing what is going to happen take away your free will?
If he knows whats going to happen, then that certain instance WILL happen, meaning it can't be changed, thus throwing out the window 'Free Will'

I don't think you're looking at it correctly. The future CAN be changed, but God knows how you'll change it. Knowing that you're going to pick red over blue in a situation doesn't mean that you no longer had any choice. You had a choice; it was just already known.
mattrodstrom
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10/30/2010 10:14:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:08:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 10/30/2010 6:41:43 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
At 10/30/2010 5:33:41 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/29/2010 9:47:06 PM, PoliticallyCorrect wrote:
This is a paradox I frequently ponder. If Gods supposed to know EVERYTHING, then that means he knows what is going to happen, meaning we don't have free will, which God clearly states we have. Give me thoughts on how you see this or why you think you have an explanation for it.

How does God knowing what is going to happen take away your free will?
If he knows whats going to happen, then that certain instance WILL happen, meaning it can't be changed, thus throwing out the window 'Free Will'


I don't think you're looking at it correctly. The future CAN be changed, but God knows how you'll change it. Knowing that you're going to pick red over blue in a situation doesn't mean that you no longer had any choice. You had a choice; it was just already known.

how was it known?

does he know your nature/the nature of the world... so well that he can just tell??

OR... does he see Past, Present, and Future all as 1 Eternal Present?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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10/30/2010 10:14:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:14:18 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
does he know your nature/the nature of the world... so well that he can just tell??

OR... does he see Past, Present, and Future all as 1 Eternal Present?

or what?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/30/2010 10:22:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:19:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:
We don't have free-will anyway.

we make "choices"...

we just make them according to how we are.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
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10/30/2010 10:25:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:22:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/30/2010 10:19:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:
We don't have free-will anyway.

we make "choices"...

we just make them according to how we are.

When you think about it, the concept really has no meaning at all. What does it mean? All your thoughts and actions are a result of the dominos that lead up to them; your biology and environment, right down to the atomic level.
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jharry
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10/30/2010 10:26:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 8:02:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/30/2010 2:34:48 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 10/30/2010 6:29:13 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
so... that's why Free will's incompatible with an all-knowing God.

God is also Omni-potent, meaning he has the power to both know everything and give Humans free will.

lol, maybe you can address my argument.

... or do you mean to say God Transcends Logic?... and so... you needn't explain how your will is "free" in the face of Rebuttals...
you simply need to read your bible?

Please explain your lack of free will theory in a way that isn't utterly circular and unfalsifiable.

Fro what I have seen so far it basically goes like this.

I meet you at a coffee shop for lunch. When you walk in I say "ah ha, I knew you would wear those shoes because your choices are determined by your biology and environment." And I say, "well, my other shoes were dirty". And you reply" I'm right, they are dirty because your biology and environment determined you would wear those shoes hunting".

There is no way it could ever be proven wrong because it s always after the action and result that it is declared to be determined. It's a big ol load of crap. I don't mean to say that this proves free will because it alternative is false, but the alternative is any thing but true.

Even if someone goes against biology and environment then the circular assertion is made that that person had some other blah blah blah.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tvellalott
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10/30/2010 10:29:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 8:02:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/30/2010 2:34:48 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 10/30/2010 6:29:13 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
so... that's why Free will's incompatible with an all-knowing God.

God is also Omni-potent, meaning he has the power to both know everything and give Humans free will.

lol, maybe you can address my argument.

... or do you mean to say God Transcends Logic?... and so... you needn't explain how your will is "free" in the face of Rebuttals...
you simply need to read your bible?

You know I'm an atheist right...
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
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mattrodstrom
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10/31/2010 6:51:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:26:35 PM, jharry wrote:
Please explain your lack of free will theory in a way that isn't utterly circular and unfalsifiable.

All of your thoughts, emotions... choices.. etc. Are Completely rooted in very complex physical happenings in the brain.

thus... your choices occur due to the physical state of your brain.

the physical state of a thing Follows necessarily from the previous state of the thing... and the previous state of surrounding things/the universe...

So Your thoughts, emotions, choices etc... are all rooted in Physical phenomena Which had to have occurred the way it did Given the nature of the Physical universe.
Fro what I have seen so far it basically goes like this.

I meet you at a coffee shop for lunch. When you walk in I say "ah ha, I knew you would wear those shoes because your choices are determined by your biology and environment."

LOL How would I know what shoes you're gonna wear?!?

It'd be more like "I had no freakin clue what shoes your gonna wear, though, Wearing GREEN?.. I thought you didn't like green?... However!, Given that you ARE wearing them... (and that your choice was the result of physical happenings in your brain) I suppose it Really couldn't have happened otherwise!...

Still, though... Green!?"

lol

And I say, "well, my other shoes were dirty". And you reply" I'm right, they are dirty because your biology and environment determined you would wear those shoes hunting".

There is no way it could ever be proven wrong because it s always after the action and result that it is declared to be determined. It's a big ol load of crap.

yeah there is.

After people suffer head injuries, strokes, and stuff... Neuroscientists have identified patterns linking up specific Brain injuries to specific problems in functioning...

IF lots of people start coming in with toe injuries, eyelid injuries, knee injuries etc and brain injuries ALL having Function problems associated that Don't fit the Established patterns for Impairment...

OR if people get hit in the head DESTROYING their brain.. AND STILL function Right as Rain.... all that'll go a long way to making those patterns we have now look like a silly little pile of speculation.

However, GIVEN the established regularity of those patterns, it now makes a helluva lotta sense to think that the Brain = the mind.

I don't mean to say that this proves free will because it alternative is false, but the alternative is any thing but true.

Even if someone goes against biology and environment then the circular assertion is made that that person had some other blah blah blah.

I don't argue about particular people "having" to do any particular thing they did b/c of their upbringing/environment.. or any such thing.

The actual detailed manner in which those decisions are based in Physical happenings is Much Beyond me...
really, it's even Much Beyond Neuroscientists.
(all they have are General area associations with Mental functions... and a sense of awe at the STAGGERING number of neurons and connections[though, they have pretty much figured out how our Physical sensory and operation type systems work pretty good)

However, it's pretty clear that that's what's goin on.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/31/2010 6:54:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/30/2010 10:29:26 PM, tvellalott wrote:
You know I'm an atheist right...

i do now!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Shominy
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10/31/2010 3:57:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/29/2010 10:14:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
why would someone knowing what you are going to do before you do it negste (libertarian) free will? that does not imply you couldn't have done otherwise (especially if that someone is a God with knowledge of counterfactuals) nor does it imply that that knowledge causes you to do x or y.

It's not about knowledge causing action, it's the other way around.

How would God know you are going to do x or y? Knowledge of the existence of action x or y depends on the action existing. You need to assume the truth of either free will or determinism before you can deduce the truth or falsehood of the existence of this kind of foreknowledge.

If free will exists, God cannot know your future actions.
jharry
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10/31/2010 5:01:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/31/2010 6:51:14 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/30/2010 10:26:35 PM, jharry wrote:
Please explain your lack of free will theory in a way that isn't utterly circular and unfalsifiable.

All of your thoughts, emotions... choices.. etc. Are Completely rooted in very complex physical happenings in the brain.

thus... your choices occur due to the physical state of your brain.

the physical state of a thing Follows necessarily from the previous state of the thing... and the previous state of surrounding things/the universe...

So Your thoughts, emotions, choices etc... are all rooted in Physical phenomena Which had to have occurred the way it did Given the nature of the Physical universe.
Fro what I have seen so far it basically goes like this.

I meet you at a coffee shop for lunch. When you walk in I say "ah ha, I knew you would wear those shoes because your choices are determined by your biology and environment."

LOL How would I know what shoes you're gonna wear?!?

It'd be more like "I had no freakin clue what shoes your gonna wear, though, Wearing GREEN?.. I thought you didn't like green?... However!, Given that you ARE wearing them... (and that your choice was the result of physical happenings in your brain) I suppose it Really couldn't have happened otherwise!...

Still, though... Green!?"

lol

And I say, "well, my other shoes were dirty". And you reply" I'm right, they are dirty because your biology and environment determined you would wear those shoes hunting".

There is no way it could ever be proven wrong because it s always after the action and result that it is declared to be determined. It's a big ol load of crap.

yeah there is.

After people suffer head injuries, strokes, and stuff... Neuroscientists have identified patterns linking up specific Brain injuries to specific problems in functioning...

IF lots of people start coming in with toe injuries, eyelid injuries, knee injuries etc and brain injuries ALL having Function problems associated that Don't fit the Established patterns for Impairment...

OR if people get hit in the head DESTROYING their brain.. AND STILL function Right as Rain.... all that'll go a long way to making those patterns we have now look like a silly little pile of speculation.

However, GIVEN the established regularity of those patterns, it now makes a helluva lotta sense to think that the Brain = the mind.

I don't mean to say that this proves free will because it alternative is false, but the alternative is any thing but true.

Even if someone goes against biology and environment then the circular assertion is made that that person had some other blah blah blah.

I don't argue about particular people "having" to do any particular thing they did b/c of their upbringing/environment.. or any such thing.

The actual detailed manner in which those decisions are based in Physical happenings is Much Beyond me...
really, it's even Much Beyond Neuroscientists.
(all they have are General area associations with Mental functions... and a sense of awe at the STAGGERING number of neurons and connections[though, they have pretty much figured out how our Physical sensory and operation type systems work pretty good)

However, it's pretty clear that that's what's goin on.

Oh. I was looking for a description that wasn't circular and unfalsifiable. Thanks though. :)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
mattrodstrom
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11/1/2010 6:44:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/31/2010 5:01:23 PM, jharry wrote:
Oh. I was looking for a description that wasn't circular and unfalsifiable. Thanks though. :)

I just explained how it could be falsified...

and if you could please explain how it's circular??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Marauder
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11/1/2010 9:31:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
To keep this tread at least relatively intelligent I think the diffender's of there being no free will should drop the arguments about Gods foreknowledge as that is assault on logic itself. If it follows that God has power over my will/choices because he has foreknowledge of there results then it would follow that I have power of your any of your choices if I have foreknowledge of there results. I give you the opportunity to 'take a long walk on a short peer' and I know none of you will choose to take my suggestion and do that, none of you would think I had made that choice for you just because I could understand what you would do. you are an independent vessel from me and your choices function without any link to me to say that I arranged them.

Now the argument of cause and effect is not same assault on logic itself and I can stomach its use.
For those taking this approach, I have a question for you about scattered minutiae? the fact that brain does this before you form your actual thoughts, does this not show choice matters in our actions? the inevitable cause and effects of what you would think in do hit a crossroads at the very forming of your thoughts, its just as inevitable that I would build off the raciest thoughts that pop up in my scattered minutiae as it is that I will not build off those but rather build off the anti-raciest thoughts to form my thoughts. cause and effect, behavioral conditioning, environment, they don't make the outcome to this certain in any cases.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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11/1/2010 10:55:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 6:44:35 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/31/2010 5:01:23 PM, jharry wrote:
Oh. I was looking for a description that wasn't circular and unfalsifiable. Thanks though. :)

I just explained how it could be falsified...

Where....
? I must................have
......................missed.........................it.

and if you could please explain how it's circular??

It would require some sort of prediction.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen