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Who really is MIchael?

MadCornishBiker
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2/1/2016 6:22:26 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
There is a great deal of indiction in scripture that Michael and the Word were one and the same, the only begotten son of God (John 1:14) the very one who came to earth to become incarnate in Jesus body and carry out the needed sacrifice.

MICHAEL
(MiE7;cha"el) [Who Is Like God?].

1. The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called "archangel." (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as "one of the foremost princes"; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by "the prince of the royal realm of Persia." Michael was called "the prince of [Daniel"s] people," "the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel"s] people." (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that "Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses" body.""Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God"s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be "the archangel," meaning "chief angel," or "principal angel." The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with "a commanding call." It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation "archangel" applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to "an archangel"s voice" would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to "the time of the end" (Da 11:40) and then stated: "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel"s] people." (Da 12:1) Michael"s "standing up" was to be associated with "a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." (Da 12:1) In Daniel"s prophecy, "standing up" frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah"s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har"Magedon."Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God"s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: "And war broke out in heaven:

http://wol.jw.org...

Make up your own minds.
Harikrish
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2/1/2016 6:40:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 6:22:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a great deal of indiction in scripture that Michael and the Word were one and the same, the only begotten son of God (John 1:14) the very one who came to earth to become incarnate in Jesus body and carry out the needed sacrifice.

MICHAEL
(MiE7;cha"el) [Who Is Like God?].

1. The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called "archangel." (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as "one of the foremost princes"; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by "the prince of the royal realm of Persia." Michael was called "the prince of [Daniel"s] people," "the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel"s] people." (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that "Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses" body.""Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God"s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be "the archangel," meaning "chief angel," or "principal angel." The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with "a commanding call." It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation "archangel" applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to "an archangel"s voice" would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to "the time of the end" (Da 11:40) and then stated: "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel"s] people." (Da 12:1) Michael"s "standing up" was to be associated with "a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." (Da 12:1) In Daniel"s prophecy, "standing up" frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah"s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har"Magedon."Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God"s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: "And war broke out in heaven:

http://wol.jw.org...

Make up your own minds.

Where is the scriptures does it say Michael is Jesus? Or where does it say Jesus is an angel. Where is the mother angel that God cohabitated with to produce Michael to qualify as the son of God. Michael like the other angels are spirit creatures created by God like Lucufer, Gabriel , Adam and Eve.
Saying Michael is like God is not the same as saying Michael is God. Angels are supposed to be holy and angelic or like God but not God.
The JW believe there are many Gods.

Jesus Christ is God: Jn 1:1; 20:28; Heb 1:6,8
Angels are gods: Ps 97:7 + Heb 1:6; Ps 8:5 + Heb 2:7; Job 20:15 in LXX; Theophanies: Gen 18:1,22;19:1,13
"Sons of God" are gods: Gen 6:2,4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Ps 29:1-2; 89:6.
Satan is a "god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4
Demons are gods: 1 Cor 10:20; Gal 4:8
Men are called "gods": Ex 4:16; 7:1; 22:8-9; Ps 82:6 + Jn 10:33; Ezek 32:21; 28:2,9; Acts 12:22
Wooden Idols are gods: Ex 32:1,4,8,23,31; Judges 8:33; 11:24; 16:23; 2 Ki 1:2-3; 19:37

So being like a God suggests Michael was not a God as the others were as indicated by the JW list of Gods.
brontoraptor
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2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/1/2016 8:58:34 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1"Thessalonians 4:16 states: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel"s voice." Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel.

That's probably the best "pro" argument for your topic IMO.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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2/1/2016 9:19:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 6:22:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a great deal of indiction in scripture that Michael and the Word were one and the same, the only begotten son of God (John 1:14) the very one who came to earth to become incarnate in Jesus body and carry out the needed sacrifice.

Note the deceptive quote of John:1:14 modified by JW"s for their own purposes

This is what all other translations English or even earlier Latin agree with, which is this translation
(KJV)
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I used the whole of the chapter to the said verse to show what the OP"er is hiding or at the least omitting, in order to deceive. Like someone has mentioned already there"s no real scripture stating that Jesus is anything other that the only begotten of God that is the Word of God that is of God and nothing was made without the Word of God that is made flesh, that God be with us.

Needless to say the JW version is modified to accommodate what they want to believe.
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 12:03:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 9:19:24 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 2/1/2016 6:22:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a great deal of indiction in scripture that Michael and the Word were one and the same, the only begotten son of God (John 1:14) the very one who came to earth to become incarnate in Jesus body and carry out the needed sacrifice.

Note the deceptive quote of John:1:14 modified by JW"s for their own purposes

This is what all other translations English or even earlier Latin agree with, which is this translation
(KJV)
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What is decptive abut the NWT version of John 1:14? It says precisely the same as the KJV version you prefer/

It still says that it was the word, the only begotten son of God who became incarnate in the body of Jesus.





I used the whole of the chapter to the said verse to show what the OP"er is hiding or at the least omitting, in order to deceive. Like someone has mentioned already there"s no real scripture stating that Jesus is anything other that the only begotten of God that is the Word of God that is of God and nothing was made without the Word of God that is made flesh, that God be with us.

Then you failed dismally. And what is more you had to use a proven dishonest translation to do it.


Needless to say the JW version is modified to accommodate what they want to believe.

Lets analyse your version:
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It is extremely easy to demonstrate that this verse has been deliberately altered. One only has to compare the interlinear text of the Emphatic Diaglott with teh English only test to see the change that has been made.

http://archive.org...

There can only be one reason for the alteration. To deceive.

The truth is that John 1:1 does not say who the Word is, but what he is, divine, a spirit being like his father, a god even. It speaks to his nature not his identity, as many much more correct renditions show.

2: The same was in the beginning with God.

Well, was he God or was he with God. If he was with God then you have two Gods, polytheism.

3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Perfectly correct. As Proverbs 8:30 amd Colossians 1:13 point out, Jehovah used him to create everything else through him.

4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

He was and is a life giving spirit, just like his father, and in fact all the Angels are3. Without spirit from God we would not be alive.

5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Just as you do not comprehend what you read.

6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Most of that refers to Joh the Baptist.

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Of course the Word had the glory as of the only begotten son of God, he was the only begotten son of God, and in the transfiguration John and two others saw precisely that.

All you have proven with that quotation is that it is you who deceives, not me.

I speak truth, pure and simple.

The Word AKA Michael, was and is the only begotten son of God, the only one that God created all alone and who them worked alongside him in creating everything else which his father told him to and gave him the power to do.

That is why he is called the only begotten son of God, an epithet which cannot possibly apply to Jesus, who wasn't even the first virgin birth in scripture.

Isaiah 7:14.

That was given by Jehovah, through Isaiah, as a sign for King Ahaz. to encourage him.

That means it happened then, so Ahaz could see it and be encouraged.

It was less a prophecy of Jesus birth than a foreshadowing of it.

No-one in scripture ever called Jesus Immanuel.

There is no record of him eating honey and butter.

Only Immanuel did that.

No, Jesus was not the only begotten son, Michael, AKA the Word was, and it was he who became incarnate in Jesus.

The JWs do not deceive, it would be anathema to them as it is to their God. They stand to gain nothing from deceiving and to lose everything if they do.

It is the liars who depict God as a fraud claiming to be One True God when he is three.

Who depict Christ as the liar when he says he has a God.

Te liars who depict him as an unfair God who would punish men twice for the same crime, and who would put them through torment literally for eternity, when they have already paid the price for sin, which is death, nothing more, nothing less.

They insult Jehovah and his son by calling them liars and frauds as well as cruel and callous.

He is not, and has always been truly a God of love, but especially love for those who love him.

These ones are deceitful workers, false "angels of light" and why not, as the scripture says, for their maser himself disguises himself as an Angel of light to deceive. (2 Corinthians11:13-14).

Don't listen to them, read the evidence and make up your own minds.

Can you really trust en who insist on using proven dishonest translations which dare not even include the holy name of God where it should be?

How dishonest can you get?

Surely nothing is more dishonest than pretending the holy name of God has no right to be where he placed it?

But they do none the less. And it is condoned by those who use their dishonest translations.
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 12:06:25 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

It is one of the most powerful ones, yes, but by no means the only one. The whole of the quoted article is powerful evidence for The Word being Michael, and it all comes from scripture.

I admit I copied and pasted it partly out of laziness, and partly out of recognition that I could not do the job as well, let alone better.
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 12:08:48 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.

The operative question is whether or not the Word, God's only begotten son, and Michael are one and the same. If they are then they are also Christ.
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 12:11:46 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

Yes and in what sense did he mean, or in fact God mean, that theywould know Good and Eveil?

Did he mean they would know which is Good and which Evil, in which cae it failed dismally.

Or did he mean they would know them in that they would benefit from Good and suffer the effects of Evil.

On the evidence of what I see around me, and read on here, I would say it has to be the second option.

If it had been the first morality would likely be universal, not different depending on where you live.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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2/2/2016 1:36:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 12:03:24 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 9:19:24 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 2/1/2016 6:22:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a great deal of indiction in scripture that Michael and the Word were one and the same, the only begotten son of God (John 1:14) the very one who came to earth to become incarnate in Jesus body and carry out the needed sacrifice.

Note the deceptive quote of John:1:14 modified by JW"s for their own purposes

This is what all other translations English or even earlier Latin agree with, which is this translation
(KJV)
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What is decptive abut the NWT version of John 1:14? It says precisely the same as the KJV version you prefer/

It still says that it was the word, the only begotten son of God who became incarnate in the body of Jesus.






I used the whole of the chapter to the said verse to show what the OP"er is hiding or at the least omitting, in order to deceive. Like someone has mentioned already there"s no real scripture stating that Jesus is anything other that the only begotten of God that is the Word of God that is of God and nothing was made without the Word of God that is made flesh, that God be with us.

Then you failed dismally. And what is more you had to use a proven dishonest translation to do it.



Needless to say the JW version is modified to accommodate what they want to believe.

Lets analyse your version:
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It is extremely easy to demonstrate that this verse has been deliberately altered. One only has to compare the interlinear text of the Emphatic Diaglott with teh English only test to see the change that has been made.

http://archive.org...

There can only be one reason for the alteration. To deceive.

The truth is that John 1:1 does not say who the Word is, but what he is, divine, a spirit being like his father, a god even. It speaks to his nature not his identity, as many much more correct renditions show.


2: The same was in the beginning with God.

Well, was he God or was he with God. If he was with God then you have two Gods, polytheism.

3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Perfectly correct. As Proverbs 8:30 amd Colossians 1:13 point out, Jehovah used him to create everything else through him.

4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

He was and is a life giving spirit, just like his father, and in fact all the Angels are3. Without spirit from God we would not be alive.

5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Just as you do not comprehend what you read.

6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Most of that refers to Joh the Baptist.

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Of course the Word had the glory as of the only begotten son of God, he was the only begotten son of God, and in the transfiguration John and two others saw precisely that.

All you have proven with that quotation is that it is you who deceives, not me.

I speak truth, pure and simple.

The Word AKA Michael, was and is the only begotten son of God, the only one that God created all alone and who them worked alongside him in creating everything else which his father told him to and gave him the power to do.

That is why he is called the only begotten son of God, an epithet which cannot possibly apply to Jesus, who wasn't even the first virgin birth in scripture.

Isaiah 7:14.

That was given by Jehovah, through Isaiah, as a sign for King Ahaz. to encourage him.

That means it happened then, so Ahaz could see it and be encouraged.

It was less a prophecy of Jesus birth than a foreshadowing of it.

No-one in scripture ever called Jesus Immanuel.

There is no record of him eating honey and butter.

Only Immanuel did that.

No, Jesus was not the only begotten son, Michael, AKA the Word was, and it was he who became incarnate in Jesus.

The JWs do not deceive, it would be anathema to them as it is to their God. They stand to gain nothing from deceiving and to lose everything if they do.

It is the liars who depict God as a fraud claiming to be One True God when he is three.

Who depict Christ as the liar when he says he has a God.

Te liars who depict him as an unfair God who would punish men twice for the same crime, and who would put them through torment literally for eternity, when they have already paid the price for sin, which is death, nothing more, nothing less.

They insult Jehovah and his son by calling them liars and frauds as well as cruel and callous.

He is not, and has always been truly a God of love, but especially love for those who love him.

These ones are deceitful workers, false "an

Don't listen to them, read the evidence and make up your own minds.

Can you really trust en who insist on using proven dishonest translations which dare not even include the holy name of God where it should be?

How dishonest can you get?

Surely nothing is more dishonest than pretending the holy name of God has no right to be where he placed it?

But they do none the less. And it is condoned by those who use their dishonest translations.

I am not a JW, so my perspective is Protestant in nature. I don't view Father, Son as polytheistic, nor do any Protestant denominations, nor did Protestants or Catholics for nearly 2,000 years pre Jehovah's Witnesses, so what was God's stance on the issue for 2,000 years as all of Christianity took a stance of Jesus as divine? Nevertheless, the Bible depicts Jesus's div
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 1:42:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Some Bible Verses that say
"Jesus is God"

Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a "good prophet", but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:
Matthew 1:23 - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior."
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ"

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins."

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Acts 4:12 - "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:13 - "I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."... 22:16 - "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches."

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - "our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."

Hebrews 2:17-18 - "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
bulproof
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2/2/2016 1:50:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
OK mad, when Mick possessed Jesus' body what happened to Jesus?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 2:35:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I perceive the personages of God as likened unto this.

If I was a time traveler, I could go pick up myself at age 28, myself at age 16, andmyself at age 5. Are we all the same "being"? Yes. Are we the same exactly? No. We all think from different perspectives. We all think in terms of where we are at. In reality, me now would be the greatest in terms ofauthority over the others, yet we are all the same "ness".

The Father as a being is always as omnipotent "God" beyond human comprehension, not human, not swayed or influenced or tempted by the flesh, not a man, but a spirit, holy, omnipotent, omniscient, all knowing, eternal, all powerful, not hurtable, not weakened in the flesh, not changable, not understandable or fathomable, invincible, immortal, 100% God. His will is done. 100% God is "more" than fully God/fully man.

The Son is God in the flesh, fully God/fully man, seeing our reality as we see it. Tempted in the flesh as a man, feeling of pain, hurtable (in theory), emotional, empathetic, sympathetic, in manifestation able to judge man as a man in fairness, tempted and tried as we are, has to have faith as we do, God in the flesh, proven, tried, true, a bridge to God omnipotent by God the human Christ. I have always invisioned in Heaven based on the concepts of the book of Revelation, a bright light too bright to look at directly with the voice of God radiating out from the light. I then invision the silhouette of Christ appearing in the light and stepping out of the light in the flesh, touchable, fathomable, empathetic, sympathetic, human like us, manifested as God's love and image reflected in humaness within Christ in a relationship with man as a man.

I see Father vs. Son as 2 different manifestations of the same entity. One is the high priest, savior, blood sacrifice, etc that bridges us to the Father who is holy. He is the one who can look upon the Father, and He is the one the Father can look upon and not destroy in the flesh because even in the Father's holiness, Christ is holy. I picture it as the Father who is holy, not able to look upon sin without destroying it and the person unable to look at His holiness without being destroyed, and He looks in a mirror(in theory) and sees holiness only, omnipotent and unfathomable to us. And in terms of the flesh Christ is the only one He can look upon without destroying them and they look upon his holiness without being destroyed for it is the same holiness. I invision the Father seeing His human self and seeing Christ as they stare each other down in righteousness, holiness, and perfection. I invision the Father on a throne as light. I invision Christ sitting upon that same throne in that light. I then picture Christ's human voice changing into a voice of omnipotence and authority. Christ is the Lord. King of Kings. Lord of Lords.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Composer
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2/2/2016 2:56:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
We have heard Psycho MCB's opinions = misunderstandings, but the Botchtower after ' Making Sure of ALL Things ' assured us that the opinion of the Botchtower's supposed God, is that Mikey is NOT jebus!

***The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. (The Watchtower 1931 November 1 p.327)

cf.

"Hence it is said, "Let all the angels of God worship him;" [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because He has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they."" Zion's Watch Tower 1879 Nov p.4
Skyangel
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2/2/2016 6:14:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 12:08:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.

The operative question is whether or not the Word, God's only begotten son, and Michael are one and the same. If they are then they are also Christ.

The WORD is TRUTH, not an individual person. ( John 17:17)
TRUTH can only beget TRUTH
LIFE can only beget LIFE
Spirit can only beget Spirit. ( John 3:6 )
That principle is why the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of TRUTH is TRUTH. It is not an individual man because flesh can only beget flesh ( John 3:6)

The concept of the spirit being in the flesh or body of a character is like water being in a glass. The water can be seen through the glass but that does not make the glass water and having the Spirit in the body does not make the body the Spirit either.
The Spirit of God was in the character named Jesus and also in other characters like John the baptist but the fact that they had the Spirit in them did not make any of them God because the spirit is never confined to any individual body. Therefore worshipping any character as God or the Son of God is idolatry.
A spirit has no form any more than LOVE has a form. It is not a character any more than Love is a character.
Love is a process, an attitude, an emotion, a principle of living in a caring attitude for others.

Christ is the comforter, also known as the spirit of Truth. ( John 15:26)
The Spirit is like the water in the glass. It is the message. The messenger or angel is like the glass. The messenger is not the message. The messenger is merely a vessel for the message.

If you don't like the message and kill the messenger because of your dislike, the message will still live on because the message is immortal. The messenger is not.
That is why the messenger continually changes but the message does not.
The messenger is irrelevant to the message.

The message is the TRUTH and the TRUTH will make you free.( John 8:32)
No angel or prophet or son of man will make anyone free. ( Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.)

Matt 16:13 .....Whom do men say that I the son of man am?
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 7:16:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 1:50:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
OK mad, when Mick possessed Jesus' body what happened to Jesus?

Scripture is silent on that since we have no need to know.
MadCornishBiker
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2/2/2016 7:39:34 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 1:36:21 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 12:03:24 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

How dishonest can you get?

Surely nothing is more dishonest than pretending the holy name of God has no right to be where he placed it?

But they do none the less. And it is condoned by those who use their dishonest translations.

I am not a JW, so my perspective is Protestant in nature. I don't view Father, Son as polytheistic, nor do any Protestant denominations, nor did Protestants or Catholics for nearly 2,000 years.

It is not how you, I or anyone else has viewed God and Christ that matters, it is how they view themselves.

Christ viewed Jehovah as both his father and his God, even after his resurrection John 20:17.

That in itself rules him out of being part of a co-equal, co-eternal trinity.

Also he is God's son, his only begotten son according to scripture.

If he is begotten he cannot be equal to his father.

If he is the only begotten son he has no equals.

Therefore there cannot be a third party co-equal to him or his father.

Men have claimed, ever since the Trinity was put forward in the late 4th century, that it is not polytheistic, but the simple truth is, that if you have three God, distinct and separate as the Trinity teaching says, then you have a polytheistic Godhead.

The Apostles never once treated Christ as equal to his father, not once, though they did teach he had the same nature, but then so do all spirit beings.

The always praised the father for the son, not the son for the father.

The fact that Jehovah allowed the truth to be buried for about 1800 years is purely down to the timetable set in the Garden of Eden, and slowly revealed as and when needed.

Though all stages of the plan were revealed by Prophets such as Jeremiah and Isaiah along the way, the timescale was not revealed.

The first stage of the plan was forming a nation which would bring the Messiah as part of it.

The second stage of the plan was the production of the Messiah, and no-one was told when that would be until Daniel wrote his prophecy at Daniel 9, which pinpointed the arrival of the Messiah exactly, as well as the length of his ministry , the manner of his death, and the desolation that followed it.

The third stage of the plan was the Messiah being installed as King, gathering together those he needed to rule alongside him, and then bringing armageddon in to cleanse the earth.

The timing of that was not revealed until the time came for gathering in the last of the anointed to start, in the mid 1800s. Even then it was not all revealed in one go, and whilst we now know the approximate end of the third stage.

We are currently rapidly reaching the end of that 4th stage which also mean that the work of warning people of what was to come fell on the group that Jehovah called to his son's side.

That group is the Jehovah's Witnesses.
kjw47
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2/2/2016 8:23:20 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.

Here is evidence---

There are 2 rides of the white horse( righteous war) in revelation--1) Michael leads Gods armies( war in heaven)--2) Jesus leads Gods armies.( Har-mageddon.)
Rev 6--1st ride--the war in heaven--Michael defeated satan and his angels and cast them out of heaven to the earth--Gods kingdom rule took over heaven right then as--He receives his crown indicates--but only Jesus gets the crown.-- As well, this was the bruising in the head of satan--only Jesus was foretold to do this, yet Michael did it.
At the 2nd ride of the white horse-- Jesus leads Godfs armies to the earth at Har-mageddon and rids Gods earth of the wicked and casts satan and his angels into the abyss for 1000 years, Gods kingdom rule begins on earth and all of creation.--as 1Thess 4:16 describes this--upon his( Jesus) return, he comes with the voice of the archangel---it is his voice.

Michael came to the earth as a mortal and was named Jesus--God did not come down here.--Daniel 12:1-- As well at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, he must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself----- forever as all created beings must do.
If Jesus were God--he already would have been king all along but he had to be appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) and then give it back to his God--so how can God have a God?????
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 8:36:11 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 8:23:20 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.


Here is evidence---

There are 2 rides of the white horse( righteous war) in revelation--1) Michael leads Gods armies( war in heaven)--2) Jesus leads Gods armies.( Har-mageddon.)
Rev 6--1st ride--the war in heaven--Michael defeated satan and his angels and cast them out of heaven to the earth--Gods kingdom rule took over heaven right then as--He receives his crown indicates--but only Jesus gets the crown.-- As well, this was the bruising in the head of satan--only Jesus was foretold to do this, yet Michael did it.
At the 2nd ride of the white horse-- Jesus leads Godfs armies to the earth at Har-mageddon and rids Gods earth of the wicked and casts satan and his angels into the abyss for 1000 years, Gods kingdom rule begins on earth and all of creation.--as 1Thess 4:16 describes this--upon his( Jesus) return, he comes with the voice of the archangel---it is his voice.

Michael came to the earth as a mortal and was named Jesus--God did not come down here.--Daniel 12:1-- As well at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, he must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself----- forever as all created beings must do.
If Jesus were God--he already would have been king all along but he had to be appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) and then give it back to his God--so how can God have a God?????

If you were a time traveler and you picked up my 5 year old self, my 12 year old self, and my 28 year old self who was a king:

1)which would be the greatest?

2)Which one would you want being the boss out of the 3?

3)Can I at 28 declare to my 5 year old self"one day you will be king" and be correct?

4)Can my 5 year old self believe what I am saying is true?

5)Can my 5 year old self grow up knowing he will be king, become king, then show his kingness to me at my now age of 41?

6)Can I as a spirit(in theory) from "Heaven" watch over all versions of myself, enter their reality, and speak to them? If I tell them the future is my testimony true?

7)Is it not fair to say my 28 year old self is king and that I, a now spirit is yet greater than he is?

8)Are we not all still the same entity? Are we not all still me yet different?

7)
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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2/2/2016 8:42:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 8:36:11 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 8:23:20 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.


Here is evidence---

There are 2 rides of the white horse( righteous war) in revelation--1) Michael leads Gods armies( war in heaven)--2) Jesus leads Gods armies.( Har-mageddon.)
Rev 6--1st ride--the war in heaven--Michael defeated satan and his angels and cast them out of heaven to the earth--Gods kingdom rule took over heaven right then as--He receives his crown indicates--but only Jesus gets the crown.-- As well, this was the bruising in the head of satan--only Jesus was foretold to do this, yet Michael did it.
At the 2nd ride of the white horse-- Jesus leads Godfs armies to the earth at Har-mageddon and rids Gods earth of the wicked and casts satan and his angels into the abyss for 1000 years, Gods kingdom rule begins on earth and all of creation.--as 1Thess 4:16 describes this--upon his( Jesus) return, he comes with the voice of the archangel---it is his voice.

Michael came to the earth as a mortal and was named Jesus--God did not come down here.--Daniel 12:1-- As well at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, he must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself----- forever as all created beings must do.
If Jesus were God--he already would have been king all along but he had to be appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) and then give it back to his God--so how can God have a God?????

If you were a time traveler and you picked up my 5 year old self, my 12 year old self, and my 28 year old self who was a king:

1)which would be the greatest?

2)Which one would you want being the boss out of the 3?

3)Can I at 28 declare to my 5 year old self"one day you will be king" and be correct?

4)Can my 5 year old self believe what I am saying is true?

5)Can my 5 year old self grow up knowing he will be king, become king, then show his kingness to me at my now age of 41?

6)Can I as a spirit(in theory) from "Heaven" watch over all versions of myself, enter their reality, and speak to them? If I tell them the future is my testimony true?

7)Is it not fair to say my 28 year old self is king and that I, a now spirit is yet greater than he is?

8)Are we not all still the same entity? Are we not all still me yet different?

7)

Your scenario is fake, unrealistic--a fantasy at best-- This is 100% truth from Jesus--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- Jesus said--truth. So trinities have to teach at Rev 3:12--God has a God---explain how that can be---John 1:1- in plain English trinity talk--2nd line--God( Logos) was with God( Theos)--- How can God be with God--impossible since there is but one God. Did you even bother to look at the evidence I posted about Michael?
Harikrish
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2/2/2016 8:49:00 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 12:06:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

It is one of the most powerful ones, yes, but by no means the only one. The whole of the quoted article is powerful evidence for The Word being Michael, and it all comes from scripture.

I admit I copied and pasted it partly out of laziness, and partly out of recognition that I could not do the job as well, let alone better.
You still haven't produced a single verse that says Michael is the only begotten son of God.
You haven't produced a single verse that says how he was begotten and who was the mother of Michael. Which simply means Michael was created like all the other creature Angels by God.
To be begotten God needed a woman even in Jesus's case so Mary was the mother of Jesus.
The name Michael means like God. Not God, not God!s son but like God.
Fake diamonds are like diamonds but not real diamonds.
Angels and angelic characters were always godlike...pure, holy divine. But angels are not God.

The bible says Michael was an angel and given the title chief angel. But still an angel nevertheless. There is a big leap from angel to son of God. Now you are talking biological connection. We know of no angels fornicating in heaven or with God.
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 9:06:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 8:42:01 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 2/2/2016 8:36:11 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 8:23:20 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:46:44 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Michael is the Arc angel who led a charge against Satan. True.

Michael is Jesus? Unknown.

I don't speculate. The answer to the question for meis: "not enough information" so I do notspeculate. Christ is Christ. Beyond that I will only know in due time.


Here is evidence---

There are 2 rides of the white horse( righteous war) in revelation--1) Michael leads Gods armies( war in heaven)--2) Jesus leads Gods armies.( Har-mageddon.)
Rev 6--1st ride--the war in heaven--Michael defeated satan and his angels and cast them out of heaven to the earth--Gods kingdom rule took over heaven right then as--He receives his crown indicates--but only Jesus gets the crown.-- As well, this was the bruising in the head of satan--only Jesus was foretold to do this, yet Michael did it.
At the 2nd ride of the white horse-- Jesus leads Godfs armies to the earth at Har-mageddon and rids Gods earth of the wicked and casts satan and his angels into the abyss for 1000 years, Gods kingdom rule begins on earth and all of creation.--as 1Thess 4:16 describes this--upon his( Jesus) return, he comes with the voice of the archangel---it is his voice.

Michael came to the earth as a mortal and was named Jesus--God did not come down here.--Daniel 12:1-- As well at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, he must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself----- forever as all created beings must do.
If Jesus were God--he already would have been king all along but he had to be appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) and then give it back to his God--so how can God have a God?????

If you were a time traveler and you picked up my 5 year old self, my 12 year old self, and my 28 year old self who was a king:

1)which would be the greatest?

2)Which one would you want being the boss out of the 3?

3)Can I at 28 declare to my 5 year old self"one day you will be king" and be correct?

4)Can my 5 year old self believe what I am saying is true?

5)Can my 5 year old self grow up knowing he will be king, become king, then show his kingness to me at my now age of 41?

6)Can I as a spirit(in theory) from "Heaven" watch over all versions of myself, enter their reality, and speak to them? If I tell them the future is my testimony true?

7)Is it not fair to say my 28 year old self is king and that I, a now spirit is yet greater than he is?

8)Are we not all still the same entity? Are we not all still me yet different?

7)


Your scenario is fake, unrealistic--a fantasy at best-- This is 100% truth from Jesus--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- Jesus said--truth. So trinities have to teach at Rev 3:12--God has a God---explain how that can be---John 1:1- in plain English trinity talk--2nd line--God( Logos) was with God( Theos)--- How can God be with God--impossible since there is but one God. Did you even bother to look at the evidence I posted about Michael?

Jesus and Michael may or may not be one in the same. I do not dispute this. But I do dispute the non god claims of JW's in reference to Jesus.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 9:08:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 8:49:00 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/2/2016 12:06:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

It is one of the most powerful ones, yes, but by no means the only one. The whole of the quoted article is powerful evidence for The Word being Michael, and it all comes from scripture.

I admit I copied and pasted it partly out of laziness, and partly out of recognition that I could not do the job as well, let alone better.
You still haven't produced a single verse that says Michael is the only begotten son of God.
You haven't produced a single verse that says how he was begotten and who was the mother of Michael. Which simply means Michael was created like all the other creature Angels by God.
To be begotten God needed a woman even in Jesus's case so Mary was the mother of Jesus.
The name Michael means like God. Not God, not God!s son but like God.
Fake diamonds are like diamonds but not real diamonds.
Angels and angelic characters were always godlike...pure, holy divine. But angels are not God.

The bible says Michael was an angel and given the title chief angel. But still an angel nevertheless. There is a big leap from angel to son of God. Now you are talking biological connection. We know of no angels fornicating in heaven or with God.

The Bible also says "no words will be added to this book" which the Quran is in violation of.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Harikrish
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2/2/2016 9:15:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 7:39:34 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/2/2016 1:36:21 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 12:03:24 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

How dishonest can you get?

Surely nothing is more dishonest than pretending the holy name of God has no right to be where he placed it?

But they do none the less. And it is condoned by those who use their dishonest translations.

I am not a JW, so my perspective is Protestant in nature. I don't view Father, Son as polytheistic, nor do any Protestant denominations, nor did Protestants or Catholics for nearly 2,000 years.

It is not how you, I or anyone else has viewed God and Christ that matters, it is how they view themselves.

Christ viewed Jehovah as both his father and his God, even after his resurrection John 20:17.

That in itself rules him out of being part of a co-equal, co-eternal trinity.

Also he is God's son, his only begotten son according to scripture.

If he is begotten he cannot be equal to his father.

If he is the only begotten son he has no equals.

Therefore there cannot be a third party co-equal to him or his father.

Men have claimed, ever since the Trinity was put forward in the late 4th century, that it is not polytheistic, but the simple truth is, that if you have three God, distinct and separate as the Trinity teaching says, then you have a polytheistic Godhead.

The Apostles never once treated Christ as equal to his father, not once, though they did teach he had the same nature, but then so do all spirit beings.

The always praised the father for the son, not the son for the father.

The fact that Jehovah allowed the truth to be buried for about 1800 years is purely down to the timetable set in the Garden of Eden, and slowly revealed as and when needed.

Though all stages of the plan were revealed by Prophets such as Jeremiah and Isaiah along the way, the timescale was not revealed.

The first stage of the plan was forming a nation which would bring the Messiah as part of it.

The second stage of the plan was the production of the Messiah, and no-one was told when that would be until Daniel wrote his prophecy at Daniel 9, which pinpointed the arrival of the Messiah exactly, as well as the length of his ministry , the manner of his death, and the desolation that followed it.

The third stage of the plan was the Messiah being installed as King, gathering together those he needed to rule alongside him, and then bringing armageddon in to cleanse the earth.

The timing of that was not revealed until the time came for gathering in the last of the anointed to start, in the mid 1800s. Even then it was not all revealed in one go, and whilst we now know the approximate end of the third stage.

We are currently rapidly reaching the end of that 4th stage which also mean that the work of warning people of what was to come fell on the group that Jehovah called to his son's side.

That group is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

You often hear from the JW members that Jesus is not God/Jehovah. That Jesus is Michael the archangel or that Jesus is a God. Therefore it is Jehovah that you have to pray and listen to. Jehovah is Jesus's boss. All this is nonsense when you actually follow what was Jesus's mission and why one cannot go over or go around or get past Jesus and go directly to God. The buck stops with Jesus.

Jesus was given incredible power and authority over the world and mankind. We all come under his charge and domain.

Jesus was sent by his Father to be the saviour of mankind, the only way to the Father was through Jesus. Jesus was given all authority over heaven and earth.

John 14:6 Jesus answered "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Luke 10:16 New International Version
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

This clearly shows one cannot go over or past Jesus to get to God his Father. The only path to God is Jesus.

Everything below indicates the mission Jesus had was to glorify God, but also make his role and authority known that was given to him by the Father. Jesus was acting on behalf of God and paving the way for salvation which was only possible through him that he might give eternal life to all those that God put him in charge of...which was all authority over heaven and earth.
Yes, Jesus references his Father because he was sent by God. But there is no mistake in his mission, power, authority and responsibility over mankind given to him by God. The world is Jesus's domain and you like the rest are all under Jesus's domain.

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people THAT HE MIGHT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN " For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me " All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come TO ME through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name - the name you gave me - so that they may be one as we are one " My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I IN THEM and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me BECAUSE YOU LOVED ME BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them AND THAT I MYSELF MAY BE IN THEM."" John 17:1-5, 8, 10-11, 20-26

One does not deal with God directly. God sent Jesus to be the mediator. He put Jesus in charge and gave Jesus all authority over heaven and earth and those that accepted him would be granted eternal life and salvation.

A soldier does not deal with the General or Commander in Chief. He has to deal with the authority assigned to his platoon. Jesus was assigned to mankind.
It is out of pure arrogance and ignorance that our JW members believe jehovah is going to bypass Jesus His anointed one and listen to their petty problems and misguided prayers.
Some have even been disfellowshipped and shunned by JW elders because they were found unworthy to continue as a JW member.
Harikrish
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2/2/2016 9:24:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 9:08:29 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 8:49:00 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/2/2016 12:06:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

It is one of the most powerful ones, yes, but by no means the only one. The whole of the quoted article is powerful evidence for The Word being Michael, and it all comes from scripture.

I admit I copied and pasted it partly out of laziness, and partly out of recognition that I could not do the job as well, let alone better.
You still haven't produced a single verse that says Michael is the only begotten son of God.
You haven't produced a single verse that says how he was begotten and who was the mother of Michael. Which simply means Michael was created like all the other creature Angels by God.
To be begotten God needed a woman even in Jesus's case so Mary was the mother of Jesus.
The name Michael means like God. Not God, not God!s son but like God.
Fake diamonds are like diamonds but not real diamonds.
Angels and angelic characters were always godlike...pure, holy divine. But angels are not God.

The bible says Michael was an angel and given the title chief angel. But still an angel nevertheless. There is a big leap from angel to son of God. Now you are talking biological connection. We know of no angels fornicating in heaven or with God.

The Bible also says "no words will be added to this book" which the Quran is in violation of.
The Quran is not a translation of the Bible. It is God speaking to the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) through the angel Gabriel and the prophet reciting from memory God's message to his scribes to write down which was put together to form the Quran.
The bible is made up of 66 separate books by different authors with many overlapping messages, errors, additions and corrections.
The Quran is the product of a single mind that of the prophet in communication with God. How great is that'll!!!
brontoraptor
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2/2/2016 9:25:26 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Michael the archangel is mentioned only five times in the Bible (Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7), and yet never do these passages indicate that he is to be equated with the preincarnate Christ, nor with the ascended Jesus. First Thessalonians 4:16 also alludes to "an archangel," and, although the name Michael is not mentioned, this is the passage Jehovah"s Witnesses frequently cite as proof of Jesus being the archangel. Concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Paul wrote: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (emp. added). Supposedly, since Jesus is described as descending from heaven "with the voice of an archangel," then He must be the archangel Michael. However, this verse does not teach that Jesus is an archangel, but that at His Second Coming He will be accompanied "with the voice of an archangel." Just as He will be attended "with a shout" and "with the trumpet of God," so will He be accompanied "with the voice of an archangel." Question: If Jesus" descension from heaven "with the voice of an archangel" makes Him (as Jehovah"s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent "with the trumpet of God" not also make Him God? Jehovah"s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus.

One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son"? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire." But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions." And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail." But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? (1:5-13).

Jesus" superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other "lesser" angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. [NOTE: Interestingly, John H. Paton, the most frequently used contributing writer in 1879 of Charles Taze Russel (the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society),"admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: "Hence it is said, "let all the angels of God worship him": (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)"" (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Paton rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, and even though Russell, The Watchtower's founder and first editor and publisher, allowed such a teaching in the magazine's first year of publication,"Jehovah"s Witnesses today hold firmly to the doctrine that Jesus is Michael, the archangel.]

The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus" superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, "He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels" (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, "the appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2). "All authority" has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers "have been made subject to Him" (1 Peter 3:22). "In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him" (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, "for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5, RSV).

One final proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel actually comes from one of the five passages in which Michael"s name is found in Scripture"Jude 9. According to Jude: "Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!""" Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it" (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that "there is no truth in him." The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel.

I find it extremely puzzling how Jehovah"s Witnesses can conclude that there is no biblical proof of Jesus being deity, and yet at the same time allege that "[t]here is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return" (Watchtower, 1969, p. 307, emp. added). Where is the evidence? There is none. Jesus is not Michael the archangel; rather, He is exactly Who the apostle John said He was (John 1:1,14), Who Thomas said He was (John 20:28), and even Who His enemies accused Him of making Himself (John 5:18; 10:33). Jesus is God!
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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2/2/2016 9:41:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 9:24:01 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:08:29 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/2/2016 8:49:00 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/2/2016 12:06:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/1/2016 8:50:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Even Satan himself told Adam/Eve "you will be like God knowing good from evil". Were they god? No. The angels in the Bible tell people to not dare worship them. I have no revelation to "assume" Michael was/is Jesus. I understand that Lucifer was in such a role as Michael at one time, but Lucifer was not God.

It is one of the most powerful ones, yes, but by no means the only one. The whole of the quoted article is powerful evidence for The Word being Michael, and it all comes from scripture.

I admit I copied and pasted it partly out of laziness, and partly out of recognition that I could not do the job as well, let alone better.
You still haven't produced a single verse that says Michael is the only begotten son of God.
You haven't produced a single verse that says how he was begotten and who was the mother of Michael. Which simply means Michael was created like all the other creature Angels by God.
To be begotten God needed a woman even in Jesus's case so Mary was the mother of Jesus.
The name Michael means like God. Not God, not God!s son but like God.
Fake diamonds are like diamonds but not real diamonds.
Angels and angelic characters were always godlike...pure, holy divine. But angels are not God.

The bible says Michael was an angel and given the title chief angel. But still an angel nevertheless. There is a big leap from angel to son of God. Now you are talking biological connection. We know of no angels fornicating in heaven or with God.

The Bible also says "no words will be added to this book" which the Quran is in violation of.
The Quran is not a translation of the Bible. It is God speaking to the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) through the angel Gabriel and the prophet reciting from memory God's message to his scribes to write down which was put together to form the Quran.
The bible is made up of 66 separate books by different authors with many overlapping messages, errors, additions and corrections.
The Quran is the product of a single mind that of the prophet in communication with God. How great is that'll!!!

I find the Muslim arguements against the Bible very intriguing seeing the Quran is an obvious "knock off" of Biblical concepts and doctrine minus a few things and added a few things.

If the Bible is false there is no hell, no heaven(thus no 72 virgins), no Jesus(thus no prophet Isa and no Mahdi), no Adam and Eve, no Moses(thus no law), no Noah, no laws for not eating pork, no Ishmael(thus no entitlement to Muslims over anything and no blessing), no Armageddon, no antichrist, no Abraham(thus no Ishmael or a great nation from him) the conceptualization of the kabaa is a lie, and no Abrahamic God, thus Islam is in a conundrum either way.

If the Bible is false the Quran by very definition and sequential order is a blatant lie, unprovable, unreliable, falsified by its own claims, without a standing history described by Muhammed and identical to Biblical accounts, a fraud beyond measure, if the Bible is not correct.

If the Bible is correct, the Quran is void by the very words in Revelation denouncing any new doctrine, revelation, or words beyond it.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...