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Religious don't want "free will" after all

Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/2/2016 10:06:28 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"?

I've never seen a person of faith invoke "free will" as permission. I've only ever seen it used to shift accountability for incoherent, ignorant and cruel moral doctrine back onto the listener.

Isn't this ironical?
I'd say it's incoherent hypocrisy. Try it this way:

Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader grants the People of North Korean free will.
N. Korean #1: Yay! So we're free to visit our South Korean brothers?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: None can escape the moral consequences of exercising free will.
N. Korean #2: So, what is it we are and aren't allowed to do?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader has set tests of character that anyone can pass. You are always free to obey or disobey the wise dictates of the Beloved Leader
N. Korean #3: So, why did you shoot that last guy?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: To question the wisdom of the Beloved Leader is disobedience, and a failure of character
N. Korean #4: So, uh... what is it we're free to do again?
*gunshot*
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,135
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2/2/2016 11:59:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 10:06:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"?

I've never seen a person of faith invoke "free will" as permission. I've only ever seen it used to shift accountability for incoherent, ignorant and cruel moral doctrine back onto the listener.

Isn't this ironical?
I'd say it's incoherent hypocrisy. Try it this way:

Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader grants the People of North Korean free will.
N. Korean #1: Yay! So we're free to visit our South Korean brothers?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: None can escape the moral consequences of exercising free will.
N. Korean #2: So, what is it we are and aren't allowed to do?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader has set tests of character that anyone can pass. You are always free to obey or disobey the wise dictates of the Beloved Leader
N. Korean #3: So, why did you shoot that last guy?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: To question the wisdom of the Beloved Leader is disobedience, and a failure of character
N. Korean #4: So, uh... what is it we're free to do again?
*gunshot*

Lol, this made me snicker.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Sophisto
Posts: 121
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2/2/2016 11:59:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's definitely not up to world leaders to claim free will, let alone despots. Philosophers alone are qualified.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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2/3/2016 3:52:14 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 11:59:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/2/2016 10:06:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"?

I've never seen a person of faith invoke "free will" as permission. I've only ever seen it used to shift accountability for incoherent, ignorant and cruel moral doctrine back onto the listener.

Isn't this ironical?
I'd say it's incoherent hypocrisy. Try it this way:

Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader grants the People of North Korean free will.
N. Korean #1: Yay! So we're free to visit our South Korean brothers?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: None can escape the moral consequences of exercising free will.
N. Korean #2: So, what is it we are and aren't allowed to do?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: The Beloved Leader has set tests of character that anyone can pass. You are always free to obey or disobey the wise dictates of the Beloved Leader
N. Korean #3: So, why did you shoot that last guy?
*gunshot*
Kim Jong-Il: To question the wisdom of the Beloved Leader is disobedience, and a failure of character
N. Korean #4: So, uh... what is it we're free to do again?
*gunshot*

Lol, this made me snicker.

I blew bourbon through my nose right onto my laptop screen.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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2/3/2016 4:28:31 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
The godbotherers subsume their will to their god, they have no use for free will at all. The poor little things. LOL
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/3/2016 4:35:39 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 4:28:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
The godbotherers subsume their will to their god, they have no use for free will at all. The poor little things. LOL

In a certain perspective, this way of defending the idea of their God could be equalized with the Stockholm syndrome.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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2/3/2016 6:04:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

You would be correct about the lack of desire for free will, but it doesn"t seem you really understand what free will is.

No matter the philosophical terms and or explanations or "isms", free will is simply holding to one"s own judgement of what is good, and disregarding God"s Judgement of what is good. Usually in the case of what is good for one"s self. Or following self. Choosing for one"s self.

Where as in the true Christian context, and true follower of Christ would trust the Lord God"s Judgement of what is good for all creation, no exceptions. Which is why many times you see posters against such a thing railing on about their judgement of what God has done. Actually trying to show or convince themselves their own judgement is better then God"s. Because such a thing as God"s Judgement is good, threatens their perception of not only "free will", but the fulfillment of what they choose.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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2/3/2016 6:23:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:04:42 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

You would be correct about the lack of desire for free will, but it doesn"t seem you really understand what free will is.

No matter the philosophical terms and or explanations or "isms", free will is simply holding to one"s own judgement of what is good, and disregarding God"s Judgement of what is good. Usually in the case of what is good for one"s self. Or following self. Choosing for one"s self.

Where as in the true Christian context, and true follower of Christ would trust the Lord God"s Judgement of what is good for all creation, no exceptions.

Then, Christians have never thought about what is good, they simply trust, without exception, anything God does, regardless of whether it can be shown as good or not. A person who utilizes their free will must therefore think about God's judgement of what is good and decide for themselves whether it meets any relevant criteria to them. Perhaps, some does and some does not meet their expectations. This should not be a problem, nor should it have any consequences. If God gave you a brain to think, he would expect that you use it to think rather than follow blindly without reason.

Which is why many times you see posters against such a thing railing on about their judgement of what God has done. Actually trying to show or convince themselves their own judgement is better then God"s. Because such a thing as God"s Judgement is good, threatens their perception of not only "free will", but the fulfillment of what they choose.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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2/3/2016 6:34:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
why do you think God made paedophiles?? God wanted us to act with love and compassion to each other but he saw fit to give us a choice on how we behave and if we chose to believe, that choice can be misused and is...
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/3/2016 6:52:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:34:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
why do you think God made paedophiles?? God wanted us to act with love and compassion to each other but he saw fit to give us a choice on how we behave and if we chose to believe, that choice can be misused and is...

So your answer would be that you would use the same argument in letting the ability to do pedophiliac acts remain? Or would you corrupt God's plan of viewing this antipole of love?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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2/3/2016 6:55:19 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:52:24 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:34:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
why do you think God made paedophiles?? God wanted us to act with love and compassion to each other but he saw fit to give us a choice on how we behave and if we chose to believe, that choice can be misused and is...

So your answer would be that you would use the same argument in letting the ability to do pedophiliac acts remain? Or would you corrupt God's plan of viewing this antipole of love?

I think God's plan of free will is correct, especially on the choice of believing, he could have made us all believe but the choice is the best way...
personally i would rather we did not have the free will to live terrible lives that hurt people especially on purpose...

but I am not God thank goodness..
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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2/3/2016 7:01:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:34:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
why do you think God made paedophiles??

To staff the clergy.

God wanted us to act with love and compassion to each other but he saw fit to give us a choice on how we behave and if we chose to believe, that choice can be misused and is...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/3/2016 9:12:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 7:01:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:34:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/3/2016 4:04:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/3/2016 12:11:35 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 2/2/2016 9:38:30 PM, Jovian wrote:
Look in this thread

http://www.debate.org...

Look how many religious people who answer that they would had got rid of homosexuality in the world if they could. Whatever happened to the importance of "free will"? It seems that the "free will" card only shows up when convenient, such as when explaining the question "How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world?".

Isn't this ironical?

is standing for what is right wrong some how..lol

there is quite a difference between saying you would get rid of homosexuality if they could and actually doing it...

i would get rid of paedophilia if I could is that against someones free will...

When you're saying that you want to get rid of it, do you mean that you would make it impossible for humans to be pedophiles in the first place? Because if you're implying that, then you are basically going against the "it's good that God gave us free will" argument. Then a counterargument against you could be the usual "there must be evil in the world in order for good to exist".
why do you think God made paedophiles??

To staff the clergy.

BA-ZING!