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For books claiming divine origin

Indophile
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11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

Why I feel this to not be the best way to prove it is because any book can claim that it is divine. So, the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to have other things going for it.

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as prophecies fulfilled or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author. Christians claim the Bible is vindicated prophetically (well some do) Muslims claim that the Koran contains modern science stuff.

In truth prophecies are altered/interpreted after the event has passed. And the science of the Koran is either coincidental or already known to the ancient world.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Indophile
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11/1/2010 9:22:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as prophecies fulfilled or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author. Christians claim the Bible is vindicated prophetically (well some do) Muslims claim that the Koran contains modern science stuff.

In truth prophecies are altered/interpreted after the event has passed. And the science of the Koran is either coincidental or already known to the ancient world.

Even if you take all these prophecies and modern science, is bringing in God the only way to resolve these? Can there be no other explanation that explains away this stuff?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/1/2010 9:25:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:22:29 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as prophecies fulfilled or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author. Christians claim the Bible is vindicated prophetically (well some do) Muslims claim that the Koran contains modern science stuff.

In truth prophecies are altered/interpreted after the event has passed. And the science of the Koran is either coincidental or already known to the ancient world.

Even if you take all these prophecies and modern science, is bringing in God the only way to resolve these? Can there be no other explanation that explains away this stuff?

Well it's a moot point because all these claims can be debunked. But failing that then yes. Coincidence, Genius, and alien contact are all much more likely than the God excuse.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Marauder
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11/1/2010 9:36:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author.

I've heard it suggested that Ezekiel was describing one of these in his prophetic book. http://en.wikipedia.org...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

Why I feel this to not be the best way to prove it is because any book can claim that it is divine. So, the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to have other things going for it.

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.

you appeal to 3 other sources to compliment the Scripture for its veracity.
Tradition
Reasoning
Experience

together this makes up the Wesleyan quadrilateral. http://en.wikipedia.org...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

Why I feel this to not be the best way to prove it is because any book can claim that it is divine. So, the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to have other things going for it.

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.

you appeal to 3 other sources to compliment the Scripture for its veracity.

What is the first source?

Tradition

That is hardly valid is it? Tradition has no bearing on truth.

Reasoning

Good.

Experience

Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified or indeed seperated from mental illness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
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11/1/2010 9:45:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as prophecies fulfilled or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author. Christians claim the Bible is vindicated prophetically (well some do) Muslims claim that the Koran contains modern science stuff.

In truth prophecies are altered/interpreted after the event has passed. And the science of the Koran is either coincidental or already known to the ancient world.
Then you and I should see how Qur'an is compared to them. We can do it in a debate. If ancient Greeks and Romans had known something before the Qur'an, then the Qur'an should agree with them on many of their scientific theories - which it does not.
Mirza
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11/1/2010 9:47:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:22:29 AM, Indophile wrote:
Even if you take all these prophecies and modern science, is bringing in God the only way to resolve these? Can there be no other explanation that explains away this stuff?
Not if you get a 0% chance of getting everything correct using the theory of probability.
Indophile
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11/1/2010 9:54:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:47:54 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:22:29 AM, Indophile wrote:
Even if you take all these prophecies and modern science, is bringing in God the only way to resolve these? Can there be no other explanation that explains away this stuff?
Not if you get a 0% chance of getting everything correct using the theory of probability.

Everything can be explained, but I can offer you no proof of my theory. But to me my theory sounds more reasonable/as exotic as bringing in God.

But my point is, human imagination can come up with explanations that are equally provable/non-provable. So, why this fixation with God?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/1/2010 9:58:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:45:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?


The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity. Such as prophecies fulfilled or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author. Christians claim the Bible is vindicated prophetically (well some do) Muslims claim that the Koran contains modern science stuff.

In truth prophecies are altered/interpreted after the event has passed. And the science of the Koran is either coincidental or already known to the ancient world.
Then you and I should see how Qur'an is compared to them. We can do it in a debate. If ancient Greeks and Romans had known something before the Qur'an, then the Qur'an should agree with them on many of their scientific theories - which it does not.

Yea I am up for some sort of debate on that.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/1/2010 10:00:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Shoot self.

Find out.

???

That wasn't really necessary when you can just find the contradictions.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Mirza
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11/1/2010 10:02:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:54:31 AM, Indophile wrote:
Everything can be explained, but I can offer you no proof of my theory. But to me my theory sounds more reasonable/as exotic as bringing in God.

But my point is, human imagination can come up with explanations that are equally provable/non-provable. So, why this fixation with God?
Because if you look at any holy book, any ancient wise men, and so on, you will find all of them to have lots of discrepancies. The Bible, for instance, has similar scientific errors that Greeks made. Vedas also have errors, and it goes on and on. It means that the chance of an All-Knowing being inspiring these people to make their scientific claims is 0%. With the Qur'an, you will never find any such discrepancy. Even "if" every single thing it says was already mentioned before, the fact that out of over a thousand of them are there and all are correct points toward a higher power. Who else would say, "The Romans were wrong and we will correct them?" Nobody could in ancient times. That is why the Qur'an is far superior to all the other scriptures when it comes to validity of claims.
Mirza
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11/1/2010 10:03:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:58:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Yea I am up for some sort of debate on that.
I am up for a five-round debate on the scientific points in the Qur'an and their validity. Send me a PM and we will discuss the rules etc.
J.Kenyon
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11/1/2010 10:07:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:00:18 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Blow self up.

Find out.

???

That wasn't really necessary when you can just find the contradictions.

For Muslims.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/1/2010 10:13:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:02:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:54:31 AM, Indophile wrote:
Everything can be explained, but I can offer you no proof of my theory. But to me my theory sounds more reasonable/as exotic as bringing in God.

But my point is, human imagination can come up with explanations that are equally provable/non-provable. So, why this fixation with God?
Because if you look at any holy book, any ancient wise men, and so on, you will find all of them to have lots of discrepancies. The Bible, for instance, has similar scientific errors that Greeks made. Vedas also have errors, and it goes on and on. It means that the chance of an All-Knowing being inspiring these people to make their scientific claims is 0%. With the Qur'an, you will never find any such discrepancy. Even "if" every single thing it says was already mentioned before, the fact that out of over a thousand of them are there and all are correct points toward a higher power. Who else would say, "The Romans were wrong and we will correct them?" Nobody could in ancient times. That is why the Qur'an is far superior to all the other scriptures when it comes to validity of claims.

Well, there could be other reasons why the Qur'an has no discrepancies, and there being a thousand things it says that point towards a higher power.

You still cannot come up with any reason other than God for this?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/1/2010 10:17:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:13:53 AM, Indophile wrote:
Well, there could be other reasons why the Qur'an has no discrepancies, and there being a thousand things it says that point towards a higher power.
Out of many holy books, the chance is fairly low. Moreover, predictions also play a role, and even if we assume that the predictions of other religious scriptures are correct, it only helps the case of Islam. Hindu scriptures, Buddhist scriptures, Jewish and Christian scriptures, and so on, they predict the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pace be upon him).

You still cannot come up with any reason other than God for this?
No, it is impossible when you analyze it deeply.
GeoLaureate8
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11/1/2010 10:17:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:10:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

The only real way I can think of is if the book shows knowledge that would have been beyond humanity.

The Tipitaka and Mahayana Sutras fit this. (Though, to be clear, they claim to have came from an Enlightened being, not a divine source.)

Such as prophecies fulfilled

No need for fulfilled prophesies as Buddhist scripture isn't prophetic.

or science/knowledge well ahead of the time period/author.

This certainly the case for Buddhist scripture. Advanced knowledge of cosmology, evolution, and even atoms can be found in it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
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11/1/2010 10:29:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

Why I feel this to not be the best way to prove it is because any book can claim that it is divine. So, the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to have other things going for it.

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.

you appeal to 3 other sources to compliment the Scripture for its veracity.

What is the first source?
obviously we are talking about the legitimate treating Scripture as a source for belief, the question brought up though was how do you verify that source. with 3 others.
Tradition

That is hardly valid is it? Tradition has no bearing on truth.
Traditional teachings can carry down with more accuracy than you think. for example a lot of locations the church has taught was a special location for something that happened there has not often been counted false by archeology investigations into them but has even been proven true or at least likely.
In any case Tradition is more than just that, Its the very principal of learning from the wisdom of the ones that came before us. It would a shame to the pursuit of knowledge itself if we burned all books and determined what we think and believe purely from what we get on our own.
Reasoning

Good.

Experience

Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified or indeed separated from mental illness.

as for the personal experiences that you are referring, yes that cant help any beyond the person it has occurred for. the general experience of the people though is not to be so quickly ignored. for though tradition is good and we should consider the words of the theologians that came before, we must still look at things within context of the challenges that come from the wold we live in today.
that though applies on the individual level too (not referring to supernatural religious experience). what books, elders, presented theories to you, or personal ones you came up with (Reasoning), you would be a fool to take them completely ignoring what is in fact happening to you. Like had you made a scientific hypothesis that was very reasonable before data was gathered, but then after data was gathered you simply ignored it without explanation. It's one thing to not change your mind after addressing the data that seems contradictory with some kind of alternative explanation of it but to purely lean on the statement 'data is irrelevant' is quite another.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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11/1/2010 10:32:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Is there any way of ascertaining the veracity of such claims without resorting to, "Well, the book says so!"?

I think it is much more then because the book says so. It is a pet peeve of mine when people say "The Bible says", no biggie but it is still weird to me. A lot of it goes back to Tradition. Witnesses and handed down knowledge. In Christianity, the earliest Christians were Jews and they were handed down their knowledge through their people. When the New Covenant was established that knowledge was continued but then became added to by God's economy. Islam? There's begins much like the Christians but actually started after Christianity and leaves out or changes a lot of the Jewish Tradition that Christians continue. As for the rest of the religions, there basically ignored.

Why I feel this to not be the best way to prove it is because any book can claim that it is divine. So, the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to have other things going for it.

Of course. Prophecies are a biggie.

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.

Doubt that is not going to happen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.
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Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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11/1/2010 10:39:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:32:17 AM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:

I'd be glad to hear of your reasons.

Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to hurt anybody's sentiments. I'm just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks.

Doubt that is not going to happen.

pessimism spreads if say stuff like that. everyone shun this non-believer

SHUN (see video if you didn't get that joke)

seriously though, I think if we act mature and keep it to healthy discussion it will stay that way. If your chilled out other people will chill out too.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
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11/1/2010 10:46:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

what? please elaborate, this is potentially deep and and very relevant to this thread which we want to keep it from hitting the gutters.

isn't the reason qualia doesn't get resisted as being considered true because its about stuff that hold little importance. 'How red is the sun?' for example. the only thing I could ever seek out to add to what my subjective opinion of what the sun looks like is what others qualia for it descries it as also. but it just an artistic opinion that carries little pragmatic change for me if a poet describes with more extravagant terms than I do.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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11/1/2010 10:46:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

For who?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Marauder
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11/1/2010 10:48:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

what about it is extraordinary? they have been around forever, its as ordinary as it gets.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Ore_Ele
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11/1/2010 10:54:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

That depends on the degree of the "religious experience." Some claims are fairly common, and some are just out there.

However, they may start getting more common. http://www.google.com...
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GeoLaureate8
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11/1/2010 10:55:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:46:52 AM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

For who?

For anybody who has a thinking brain. Religious people just don't think about it, so they don't see why it's an extraordinary claim.

Think about it. An intergalactic ruler of the Universe chose YOU out of all the other beings of all the other billions of planets, of all the billions of galaxies, just to give you a "religious experience."

Yeah, there's nothing extraordinary about that.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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11/1/2010 11:00:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:55:51 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:46:52 AM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

For who?

For anybody who has a thinking brain. Religious people just don't think about it, so they don't see why it's an extraordinary claim.

Think about it. An intergalactic ruler of the Universe chose YOU out of all the other beings of all the other billions of planets, of all the billions of galaxies, just to give you a "religious experience."

Yeah, there's nothing extraordinary about that.

why would the diameter of the universe affect the ordinariness or extra ordinariness of how a Galactic ruler chooses to act? if the the universe had a finite amount of space with a diameter that only encompassed this solar system, it would not make an experience more or less ordinary.

reasonable thinking people do not come up with the same problems you think of with this topic Geo
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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11/1/2010 11:02:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 10:55:51 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:46:52 AM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:42:12 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/1/2010 10:34:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:41:58 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:38:25 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 11/1/2010 9:04:59 AM, Indophile wrote:
Religious experience? Well generally that can not be independently verified...

Why is this a problem even if true? A lot of things like qualia can't be independently verified yet we generally take them as (absent defeaters) expressing something meaningful when reported.

Because religious experience is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

For who?

For anybody who has a thinking brain. Religious people just don't think about it, so they don't see why it's an extraordinary claim.

That's as subjective claim.

Think about it. An intergalactic ruler of the Universe chose YOU out of all the other beings of all the other billions of planets, of all the billions of galaxies, just to give you a "religious experience."

Not a religious experience, more subjective reasoning.

Yeah, there's nothing extraordinary about that.

And still more subjective claims.

As Marauder said. God has been around longer then any other belief, I see nothing extraordinary about it.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen