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The existance of the Jews defies all logic

Eliyahu
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2/5/2016 2:02:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/1/2016 7:22:03 PM, keithprosser wrote:
The Tanach consists of some 20 odd books of the Bible and as such is a broad topic! I would prefer to concentrate first on the Torah, or Pentateuch. ie the first 5 books of the OT.

If you read Eliyahu's post it is very much about the internal consistency of the narrative. That consistency is perhaps less clear that Eli would have us believe, but the real problem is with squaring the Torah with extenal evidence.

The problem is that the significant events in the Torah are not supported by evidence. Rather it is contradicted by it. There is no good evidence for the Egyptian captivity nor the exodus,

Bs"d

There is plenty. For that we have this discussion: http://www.debate.org...

nor for the violent invasion of Canaan under Joshua. Sodom and Gomorra, the flood.... all unattested in the archeological record.

Also the flood is proven beyond doubt. But if you don't want to see, that's when it stops.

it is impossible to be sure why the OT was written - there are no memos of the editorial meetings, but it is clear that a major aim the Torah was written to establish in the Jewish consciousness a link with the land from which they had been exiled by the Bablylonians.

As you can see in the OP, simple logic shows that the Torah goes back 3300 years.

The greatness of Israel/Judah was consistenly over-stated. Solomon and David were in reality minor rules over minor states. The great temple of Solomon was a largely a figment of the scribes in Babylon's imagination. The writers of Chronicles goes even further than the writers of Kings in 'bigging up' the Solomonic dynasty.

Israel was on top of the world in the days of David and Solomon, and recognized like that by all the surrounding nations.

Another consistent theme in the Torah is the relationship between the Jewish people and their god YHWH. Battles and disasters are never the result of generalship or luck but refect how pleased YHWH is with his people and/or the ruler. This is theological interpretation of history is perhaps natural considering that it was written by priests with a religion purpose. not objective historians.

The egyptians are gone, (the arabs now living in Egypt are not the old egyptians) the Bablonians are gone, the old greeks are gone, the philistines are gone, all are gone, except for the Jews:

Over the past two hundred years thinkers have pondered the metaphysics of Jewish survival. They appear to marvel at this phenomenon. For example, Leo Tolstoy in his "What is the Jew?" wrote: (9)

"What is the Jew? This is not as strange a question as it would first appear to be. Come let us contemplate what kind of unique creature is this whom all the rulers and all the nations of the world have disgraced and crushed and expelled and destroyed; persecuted, burned and drowned, and who, despite their anger and their fury, continues to live and flourish. What is this Jew, whom they have never succeeded in enticing with all the enticements in the world, whose oppressors and persecutors only suggested that he deny [and disown] his religion and cast aside the faithfulness of his ancestors?!
The Jew is the symbol of eternity. He is the one they were never able to destroy, neither bloodbath nor afflictions, neither fire nor the sword succeeded in annihilating him. He is the one who for so long has guarded the prophetic message and transmitted it to all mankind. A people such as this can never disappear. The Jew is eternal. He is the embodiment of eternity."

In his book "The Ancient World" Professor T.R. Glover similarly wrote: (10)

"No ancient people had a history stranger than the Jews..... The history of no ancient people should be so valuable, if we could only recover it and understand it.... Stranger still, the ancient religion of the Jews survives, when all the religions of every ancient race of the pre-Christian world have disappeared. Again, it is strange that the living religions of the world all build on the religious ideas derived from the Jews..... This then is the problem offered by the Jews to the historian. The great matter is not "What happened?" but "Why did it happen?" Why does this race continue? Why does Judaism live? How did it really begin? Why did it come out so?"

Professor Nicholas Berdkilaev, of the Moscow Academy of Spiritual Culture, in his book "The Meaning of History" commented thus: (11)

"The Jews have played an all-important role in history. They are pre-eminently a historical people and their destiny reflects indestructibility..... their destiny is to imbued with the metaphysical to be explained either in material or positive-historical terms. I remember how the materialist interpretation of history, when I attempted in my youth to verify it by applying to it the destinies of people, broke down in the case of the Jews, where destiny seemed absolutely inexplicable from the materialistic standpoint. And, indeed, according to the materialistic and positivist criterion, this people ought to have perished long ago. Its survival is a mysterious and wonderful phenomenon demonstrating that the life of this people is governed by a special predetermination, transcending the process of adaptation expounded by the materialistic interpretation of history. The survival of the Jews, their resistance to destruction, their endurance under absolute peculiar conditions and the fatefull role played by them in history, all these points point to the particular and mysterious foundations of their destiny."

The eighteenth-century Talmudic scholar, Rabbi Jonathan Eibeschutz, commented: (12)

"Will the atheist not be embarrassed when he reflects on Jewish history? We, an exiled people, scattered sheep from antiquity, have endured brutal persecution over thousands of years. There is no nation or people as persued as we. Many and powerfull are those who aspired to totally destroy us, but they never prevailed. How will the wise philosopher respond? Is this extraordinary phenomenon truly by chance?"

Dr Isaac Breuer wrote: (13)

"The "People of the Book" among the nations is the most fantastic miracle of all, and the history of this people is literally one of miracles. And one who sees this ancient people today, after thousands of years among the nations of the world, when he reads the Scriptures and finds that they prophetically relate clearly and simply the ever-transpiring Jewish phenomenon, and does not fall on his face and exclaim: "God, the Lord of Israel, He is God", then no other miracle will help him. For, in truth, this individual has no heart to understand, no eye to discern, and no ear to hear."

The French author Jon DeBileda, during the latter part of the ninetheenth century, (i.e. before the Russian Revolution, nazi Germany, and the modern Jewish state) described the situation thusly: (14)

"In essence, the Jewish People chuckle at all forms of anti-Semitism. Think all you want, and you will not be able to find one form of brutality or strategy that has not been used in warfare against the Jewish People. 'I cannot be defeated', says Judaism. All that you attempt to do to me today has been attempted 3,200 years ago in Egypt. Then tried the Babylonians and Persians. Afterward tried the Romans, and then others and others..... There is no question that the Jews will outlive us all. This is an eternal people..... They cannot be defeated, understand this! Every war with them is a vain waste of time and manpower. Conversely, it is wise to sign a mutual covenant with them. How trustworthy and profitable they are as allies. Look at their patriotism, their commercial benefit, and their ambition and their success in science, the arts, and politics. Be their friend and they will pay you back in friendship one-hundred-fold. This is an exalted and chosen people."
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
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2/5/2016 2:02:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Bs"d

A more modern-day example of the Jewish people survival mechanism was interestingly described in the secular Israeli newspaper "Maariv" (April 17, 1983) concerning the Jewish State's War of Independence in 1948: (15)

"Is this how things really happened? Just as they are told in the history books? And 650,000 Jews who escaped from the horrors of the Second World War and from the cruel struggle with the oppressive British " did they really build up this whole infantry on their own efforts? Six hundred and fifty thousand who created a nation-state from emptiness and desolation? And they stood in bitter warfare against the organized armies of five Arab countries? Five percent of the Jewish people, and not only did they strike a blow against every enemy that stood up against them, but absorbed hundreds of thousands of refugees from the remnants of European and Middle East Jewry. By all logic, and by all human reason, everything that happened in 1948 is in the category of the impossible. It was impossible with the limited arms that the Jews possessed, with the rudimentary international support they managed to gather, with the limited resources that were available to them, to do all that they did. To bring a system of public services in operation from nothing. To establish a military industry from its beginning. To sustain supplies and minimal services, and to run a war that had no clear delineated front or rear lines, no organized lines of defense, no organized reserves of ammunition, and no expert commanders to lead its battalions!"
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
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2/5/2016 2:03:49 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Bs'd

To conclude. -- If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race.(in reality only 0,2%) It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Here is the whole text of Mark Twains "Concerning the Jews":
http://www.fordham.edu...
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Eliyahu
Posts: 242
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2/5/2016 2:07:23 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Bs"d

Read here how and why the Jews excel through the millennia: https://sites.google.com...
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/5/2016 2:17:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Lol at the first glance on the topic, without knowing who the writer was, I thought this was an antisemitic post xD
Jovian
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2/5/2016 2:27:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:02:06 PM, Eliyahu wrote:

"But why should we believe that the Hebrew Bible is divinely inspired?

Well, maybe because half the world (that is 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Muslims) believe that it is divinely inspired? The law of the big numbers?
"

Your logical fallacy is argumentum ad populum. Many people believing one thing doesn't mean it's true. People believed back in the days that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Or that everything is made out of fire, water, wind and earth.
Eliyahu
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2/5/2016 2:47:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:27:01 PM, Jovian wrote:

Your logical fallacy is argumentum ad populum. Many people believing one thing doesn't mean it's true. People believed back in the days that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Or that everything is made out of fire, water, wind and earth.

Bs"d

Just give a logical explanation that half the world believes that the holy writings of a small shepherd tribe are inspired by God.

Give a logical explanation for the survival of the Jewish people for 3300 years while all the other cultures/nations/peoples have disappeared.

"Where are the great cultures of the ancient world with their indigenous language, religion, and group mores? Where are ancient Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Amon, Moab, Aram, Egypt, Babylonia, Media, Nubia, Persia, Greece, Palmyra, Parthia, Lydia, Akkadia, and Rome? Where are the ancient nations of the Phoenecians, Amalekites, Hittites, Assyrians, Canaanites, Midianites, Aegeans, Minoans, Nabataeans, Mayas, Aztecs, Cassites, Cimmarians, Dorians, Etruscans, Incas, Hyksos, Jebusites, Zidorians, and Scythians? And what about the not so ancient groups as the Mongols, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Carians, Franks, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Samanids, Goths, Visigoths, Lombards, Celts, Saxons, Berbers, Picts, Tartars, Gauls, and Vikings " where are they today?

The answer to this question is clear: These nations and many others have been absorbed culturally, religiously, and even ethnically within the flow of history. (3) All other ancient nations have relinquished their national and/or religious identity " when given the opportunity " to become one with the majority or conquering power. Only the Jewish people, amidst untold discrimination and persecution, retained their language, religion, national consciousness, and civil law for over 3000 year, while often becoming an integral part of the larger non-Jewish society.
The Jewish people only had to accept the majority culture and/or religion, and seemingly would have been saved untold accounts of pillage, torture, exile and slaughter. Why were the Jews so different from other nations and cultures? Were the Jewish leaders throughout history so uncommonly ingenious and convincing that they succeeded, in highly disparate lands, in holding the Jewish nation together for over three thousand years while the disintegration of other nations was only a matter of military conquest, ideological infiltration, or exile? Were the Jewish people so different in kind that only they were able to persevere, whereas other nations " under significantly less severe conditions " were, in due time, fully integrated and absorbed within the prevailing society?"
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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2/5/2016 2:57:44 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:07:23 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
Bs"d

Read here how and why the Jews excel through the millennia: https://sites.google.com...

Here's something for you to read, you won't like it because you don't like truth.
Oh well.
https://books.google.com.au...
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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2/5/2016 3:08:26 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:47:06 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:27:01 PM, Jovian wrote:

Your logical fallacy is argumentum ad populum. Many people believing one thing doesn't mean it's true. People believed back in the days that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Or that everything is made out of fire, water, wind and earth.

Bs"d

Just give a logical explanation that half the world believes that the holy writings of a small shepherd tribe are inspired by God.

So you're saying that if a powerful alien descends on Earth and threatens everyone to convert to his religion, and succeeds in doing this, then this religion must be true?

Give a logical explanation for the survival of the Jewish people for 3300 years while all the other cultures/nations/peoples have disappeared.

The Zoroastrians' religion is older than yours, they are still here too. Maybe you should convert to their religion :P

The Zoroastrians actually have battled the same things as you've done historically, being a minority with the risk of extinction, thus making themselves damn sure that they will preserve their culture.

"Where are the great cultures of the ancient world with their indigenous language, religion, and group mores? Where are ancient Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Amon, Moab, Aram, Egypt, Babylonia, Media, Nubia, Persia, Greece, Palmyra, Parthia, Lydia, Akkadia, and Rome?

Assimilated into Christianity or Islam. Funny that you're mentioning Persia, once again a region with the religion of Zoroastrianism, older than Judaism.

Where are the ancient nations of the Phoenecians, Amalekites, Hittites, Assyrians, Canaanites, Midianites, Aegeans, Minoans, Nabataeans, Mayas, Aztecs, Cassites, Cimmarians, Dorians, Etruscans, Incas, Hyksos, Jebusites, Zidorians, and Scythians?

Many here still exist.

And what about the not so ancient groups as the Mongols, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Carians, Franks, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Samanids, Goths, Visigoths, Lombards, Celts, Saxons, Berbers, Picts, Tartars, Gauls, and Vikings" where are they today?

I do not know about Mongols, that's quite weird that they were about to conquer Europe for later on being so unknown which they are today.

Many of these still exist today, like Bulgars, Berbers and Tatars. Berbers and Tatars have been quite audible in preserving themselves, have you missed this? https://en.wikipedia.org...

Viking is not an ethnicity, it was a profession.

The answer to this question is clear: These nations and many others have been absorbed culturally, religiously, and even ethnically within the flow of history. (3) All other ancient nations have relinquished their national and/or religious identity " when given the opportunity " to become one with the majority or conquering power.

Wrong. This is not the case with Zoroastrians, Berbers, Tatars, Sami, Kurds, many Native tribes around the colonized countries, etc.

Only the Jewish people, amidst untold discrimination and persecution, retained their language, religion, national consciousness, and civil law for over 3000 year, while often becoming an integral part of the larger non-Jewish society.

Like many cultures have done.

The Jewish people only had to accept the majority culture and/or religion, and seemingly would have been saved untold accounts of pillage, torture, exile and slaughter.

Speaking of this, you have yet to answer this question I gave you: http://www.debate.org...

Why were the Jews so different from other nations and cultures? Were the Jewish leaders throughout history so uncommonly ingenious and convincing that they succeeded, in highly disparate lands, in holding the Jewish nation together for over three thousand years while the disintegration of other nations was only a matter of military conquest, ideological infiltration, or exile? Were the Jewish people so different in kind that only they were able to persevere, whereas other nations " under significantly less severe conditions " were, in due time, fully integrated and absorbed within the prevailing society?"

It has probably been about having a backbone, just like the Native tribes of USA etc have had. Other minority cultures maybe didn't see any purpose on not assimilating into the majority culture. For example, the reason why so many European countries were christianized was because that the kings of the Pagan countries saw many benefits with converting, modernism was one of them.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,235
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2/5/2016 3:17:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:47:06 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:27:01 PM, Jovian wrote:

Your logical fallacy is argumentum ad populum. Many people believing one thing doesn't mean it's true. People believed back in the days that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Or that everything is made out of fire, water, wind and earth.

Bs"d

Just give a logical explanation that half the world believes that the holy writings of a small shepherd tribe are inspired by God.

Assimilation.

Give a logical explanation for the survival of the Jewish people for 3300 years while all the other cultures/nations/peoples have disappeared.

No, the "assimiliated" people disappeared, you answered your own question: you stated why does half the world believe one thing. You will notice the other half doesn't, and they didn't 'disappear'. The various dynasties of China and shogunates of Japan, south Pacific, native Australians, etc. All have been pretty much undisturbed until the industrial revolution.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...