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A question some religious won't answer

Jovian
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2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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2/7/2016 12:45:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

This is more of a question for the catholic papacy really. Ill let them answer for themselves
Jovian
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2/7/2016 12:53:49 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:45:38 AM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

This is more of a question for the catholic papacy really. Ill let them answer for themselves

I don't understand what you mean. It's not like only Catholics are the only ones to blame for every single historical clash between Catholics and Protestans.
SevenDust
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2/7/2016 1:24:14 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

Jovian,
When two opposing forces are struggling to assert their dominance over one another, you have a recipe for disaster. Throw religion in the mix, mass destruction and chaos.


That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".
Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein
Danb6177
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2/7/2016 1:24:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:53:49 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:45:38 AM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

This is more of a question for the catholic papacy really. Ill let them answer for themselves

I don't understand what you mean. It's not like only Catholics are the only ones to blame for every single historical clash between Catholics and Protestans.

Thought you were talking about the dark ages. But the catholic protestant wars were started by the catholics as well. I guess blame could be tossed at the protestants for fighting back and violating Jesus teaching. Ill give you that.
brontoraptor
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2/7/2016 1:42:04 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

Hitler caused WWII to genocide religions as an Atheist
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/7/2016 1:46:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Hitler Pick Apart

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise." Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953)." I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is" Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, fagg*ts? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."" (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."" (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."" (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Eliyahu
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2/7/2016 11:53:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

Bs"d

War is not always immoral. Sometimes the moral thing is going to war, like the Americans, who went to war against the nazi's.

What is immoral though, is murdering your own citizens by the tens or hundreds of millions, what is something what is only done by atheists.
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
JJ50
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2/7/2016 12:01:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
One question which definitely they won't answer is what is good about the Biblical deity? If it exists, it is everything that is evil!
Jovian
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2/7/2016 1:10:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 11:53:06 AM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

Bs"d

War is not always immoral. Sometimes the moral thing is going to war, like the Americans, who went to war against the nazi's.

So you're saying every religious war has been justified. Wow, how indeed much you are defending the ideology which has been the most destructive power against you Jews (Christianity). You are shooting yourself in the foot right now. Because, you know that antisemitism didn't start with Hitler, right?

What is immoral though, is murdering your own citizens by the tens or hundreds of millions, what is something what is only done by atheists.

King Leopold II of Belgium killed 10 million Congolese in an unjustified genocide, he was religious, check his letters to the Christian missionaries of the region http://www.nairaland.com...
Jovian
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2/7/2016 1:14:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 1:42:04 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

Hitler caused WWII to genocide religions as an Atheist

Stop deflecting now. You are making Hitler sound like the ONLY ONE who has done wars and genocides throughout history.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives.
brontoraptor
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2/7/2016 5:26:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 1:14:53 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 1:42:04 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

Hitler caused WWII to genocide religions as an Atheist

Stop deflecting now. You are making Hitler sound like the ONLY ONE who has done wars and genocides throughout history.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives.

Here you go jovian
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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2/7/2016 5:27:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Benito Mussolini

Mussolini would become anti-clerical like his father. As a young man, he "proclaimed himself to be an atheist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.

He valued Nietzsche's concept of the superman, "The supreme egoist who defied both God and the masses, who despised egalitarianism and democracy, who believed in the weakest going to the wall and pushing them if they did not go fast enough." On his 60th birthday, Mussolini received a gift from Hitler of a complete twenty-four volume set of the works of Nietzsche.

Joseph Stalin

While photographs and portraits portray Stalin as physically massive and majestic (he had several painters shot who did not depict him right, he was only 5"feet 6"inches tall.

His parents hoped he would become a priest. He became a religion-suppressing atheist instead.

hollowverse.com/joseph-stalin

During his time in power, Stalin had a complex relationship with religion. He officially adopted the Russian Communist Party"s stance on religion, claiming atheism and continuing the tradition of teaching atheism in schools and propagating the idea that religion was only damaging to a perfect communist society.

Estimates of how many Russians Stalin killed in the process range from 3 million to 60 million. Many were simply shot where they stood, many tortured to death, and many sent to forced labor camps where they died of malnutrition, abuse, or exposure.

Stalin is noted to have said,
"One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Jovian
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2/7/2016 5:30:00 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:27:07 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Benito Mussolini

Mussolini would become anti-clerical like his father. As a young man, he "proclaimed himself to be an atheist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.

He valued Nietzsche's concept of the superman, "The supreme egoist who defied both God and the masses, who despised egalitarianism and democracy, who believed in the weakest going to the wall and pushing them if they did not go fast enough." On his 60th birthday, Mussolini received a gift from Hitler of a complete twenty-four volume set of the works of Nietzsche.

Joseph Stalin

While photographs and portraits portray Stalin as physically massive and majestic (he had several painters shot who did not depict him right, he was only 5"feet 6"inches tall.

His parents hoped he would become a priest. He became a religion-suppressing atheist instead.

hollowverse.com/joseph-stalin

During his time in power, Stalin had a complex relationship with religion. He officially adopted the Russian Communist Party"s stance on religion, claiming atheism and continuing the tradition of teaching atheism in schools and propagating the idea that religion was only damaging to a perfect communist society.

Estimates of how many Russians Stalin killed in the process range from 3 million to 60 million. Many were simply shot where they stood, many tortured to death, and many sent to forced labor camps where they died of malnutrition, abuse, or exposure.

Stalin is noted to have said,
"One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic

Once again you are deflecting, I know very well what Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong etc did. I acknowledge this. You would only have a point against me if I once would had said "Atheists never ever genocide".

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

ANSWER!
brontoraptor
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2/7/2016 5:33:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
When the Atheist Builds a "Church"
BY DOUGLAS GROOTHUIS, PH.D " MARCH 3, 2015

Now the new atheists want to be spiritual. Godless churches are popping up and getting attention, especially from The New York Times. These atheists are seeking fellowship and a sense of transcendence. While the first wave of the movement was anti-God and anti-religion, the second wave wants to reclaim religion, but in a godless shell. "Awake is a new book by atheist Sam Harris, whose first book, The End of Faith (2004) excoriated all religions. Spirituality, for Harris, should draw on non-theistic traditions, particularly Buddhism, a religion bereft of a personal deity. Philosopher Alain de Bottom claims that religion needs nothing of God in Religion for Atheists. Community, ritual, and good works can stand on their own"and be given a sacred cast"without any aid from traditional religion.
While the first wave of the movement was anti-God and anti-religion, the second wave wants to reclaim religion, but in a godless shell. " Groothuis

Anthropologist of religion, T. M. Luhrman notes in The New York Times that "Atheist services have sprung up around the country, even in the Bible Belt, many of which are associated with Sunday Assembly." This church, non-church was founded"perhaps appropriately enough"by two British comedians Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans. Sunday Assembly gathers number around 200. They draw "thousands of people to events with music, sermons, readings, reflections and (to judge by photos) even the waving of hands," according to Luhrman. Another New York Times story speaks of an atheist leader admitting that their services are still looking for "a sense of transcendence." Ex-clergy man Jerry DeWitt presides over Community Mission Chapel in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Their statement of purpose says in part:

Our mission is to gather community while promoting a foundation of hope, trust, and love thus bridging tolerance through common secular values. We will bring the excitement into the hearts of freethinkers without exposing them to any supernatural aspects. We can provide all of the music, merriment, and ministry to our passionate growing secular crowd and still have it devoid of supernatural praise.

I could go on. Religion Without God, by the distinguished philosopher Ronald Dworkin (d. 2013) was his last philosophical statement. Barbara Erehfeld, the best-selling social critic, recently released a memoir of a spiritual experience she had long ago as a child. Taming a Wild God goes to great length to chase God out of this experience, lest her atheism be violated.

Atheist spirituality is a movement worth watching. This surprising and significant development merits some hard thinking.

When atheists refer to spirituality, they mean some natural state of being which is conducive to human fulfillment. Since atheists do not believe in the soul or in any non-material reality, "spirituality" cannot mean something pertaining to the soul or life in God-directed world. Prayer, for example, is not part of it. Neither is worship, since there is no one there to receive it. However, atheists may celebrate the greatness of humanity or revere certain secular saints. Their basis for spiritual gatherings and personal spirituality is anthropology and psychology, not theology. How might this be justified?

First, the atheist worldview is grim indeed, as many atheists admit. Humans need some philosophical adrenaline to go on, in order to ferret out some meaning somewhere. These atheists, then, are seeking solace in a universe that is "just there," as Bertrand Russell put it in his debate with Frederick Copplestone in 1948. It was not put there for anyone by anybody. "A Free Man"s Worship" had to face these unforgiving facts:

That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man"s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins"all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul"s habitation henceforth be safely built.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Jovian
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2/7/2016 5:46:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:34:38 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
http://www.defendmag.com...

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

ANSWER!
Eliyahu
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2/7/2016 5:53:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:46:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:34:38 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
http://www.defendmag.com...

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

ANSWER!

Bs"d

The only ones who murder THEIR OWN CITIZENS by the tens of millions, 200+ million in the 20th century, are the atheists.

Yes, some religious go wrong, some religious don't really follow the morals of their religion, but no religious went overboard in the way the atheist kill off their own citizens.
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,685
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2/7/2016 6:01:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:

"If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?"


Most apparently religious wars in the Middle Ages had some pretty obvious political/economic motives. Even modern conflicts that people are so quick to point the finger on religion had far more political motives behind them,
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
UtherPenguin
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2/7/2016 6:04:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:46:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:34:38 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
http://www.defendmag.com...

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

The Tutsi genocide was about race, not religion. Not every heinous act committed by a religious person is because of their religion. It was so, obviously clear that the Rwandan genocide was about ethnic tensions. Religion had nothing to do with the Rwandan genocide. Same thing with the Congo Free State and Armenia.

If a religious person commits a heinous act, are you immediately going to blame his religion, even if it had nothing to do with their motives?
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Jovian
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2/7/2016 6:51:00 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:53:52 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:46:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:34:38 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
http://www.defendmag.com...

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

ANSWER!

Bs"d

The only ones who murder THEIR OWN CITIZENS by the tens of millions, 200+ million in the 20th century, are the atheists.

Congo belonged to Belgium when Leopold genocided them. Armenia to the Ottoman Empire when the Young Turks genocided them. Tutsi to Rwanda when the Hutu tribe genocided them.

The communists often had another concept of "we and them". They had the loyal people against the unloyal people. It doesn't have to be about race, nationality or ethnicity. We could also look at the Indonesian anti-communist killings:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Made by a group of people who didn't have an atheist ideology. Indonesia is a country where 99% think religion is important for their lives. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org...)

Yes, some religious go wrong, some religious don't really follow the morals of their religion, but no religious went overboard in the way the atheist kill off their own citizens.

Sigh. Just because you would not give two f*cks about a drowning child if you knew for sure a god didn't exist, doesn't mean all other atheists would. Read about "compassion", something naturally encoded in humans and other species.
Jovian
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2/7/2016 7:06:44 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:01:02 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:

"If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?"


Most apparently religious wars in the Middle Ages had some pretty obvious political/economic motives. Even modern conflicts that people are so quick to point the finger on religion had far more political motives behind them,

That is true. I haven't been connecting these things to religions directly. I have just been using this as a counterargument to some people here who connect the dots from Stalin and Zedong's actions to their atheist beliefs, that if they are quick with this connection, they should logically connect the Crusades to Christianity solely and so on. I've been reading many things about European kings' personal beliefs, they were often apatheists.

The Tutsi genocide was about race, not religion. Not every heinous act committed by a religious person is because of their religion. It was so, obviously clear that the Rwandan genocide was about ethnic tensions. Religion had nothing to do with the Rwandan genocide. Same thing with the Congo Free State and Armenia.

It is a "correlation does not equal causation" case, yes. None of these genocides were in the name of religion, but neither was Stalin or Zedongs' genocides. I at least haven't heard from any concentration camps they had where the executor said "In the name of a Darwinist Universe, I kill you".

Rwanda is up to this date a country where the vast majority regard religion of importance, so is Turkey yet up to this date, and Leopold II seemed to be religious. So all these genocides were made of religious people. That doesn't have to mean anything though. I was just underscoring these things to, once again, show the "atheists are evil" advocating people how they with their flawed logics should connect these genocides to religion too, if Stalin and Zedongs' genocides were so indeed much about atheism.

If a religious person commits a heinous act, are you immediately going to blame his religion, even if it had nothing to do with their motives?

Nope. Same with atheists. Unless it is clear from their cases that they had stated religious/antireligious goals. And even so, a religion per se would not mean anything. There are 1000000 different ways to interpret a religion. For example, the law "You shall not murder" is interpreted as everything from "Do not even murder mosquitos" to "It is OK to murder unbelievers though".
Dirty.Harry
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2/7/2016 8:05:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

What question did you ask? which thread was it in? and what was the post # in that thread?

Harry.
12_13
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2/7/2016 8:07:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

The difference is really in, atheism doesn"t say anything about is murder right or wrong. In atheism person can make his own rules. In Christianity we have commandments like don"t murder. Atheism doesn"t have any morals, it is just belief that God doesn"t exist, or non belief in any god. Christianity has morals. The problem is that many people may claim to be Christian, but don"t live according to the Christian rules. Why they do so? That should be asked from those who don"t live according to the Biblical rules. Probably it is, because they don"t really care about what the Bible says, because they don"t really believe in God and don"t really understand why it is not right to murder.
realworldjack
Posts: 19
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2/7/2016 8:09:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

I would agree religion is about morals, however Christianity has nothing to do with morals, as far as teaching me how to be a moral person. Rather, Christianity teaches me I am immoral and there is nothing I can do to reverse this. In fact, as we go all the way back to Genesis, in the Garden Adam, and Eve were commanded not to eat from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." As we think about this, it would certainly seem to mean that Adam, and Eve had no knowledge of "good and evil" until they ate from this tree. This would mean they were free from this knowledge, but when they ate they then became enslaved to this knowledge. In other words, this knowledge did not liberate them, but rather enslaved them.

Adam, and Eve attempted to remedy their situation by sewing fig leaves, but as we know this remedy would not last very long, which would mean, they would never be able to rest from their work. It then goes on to tell us, God supplied animal skin, which means blood had to be shed, and a life sacrificed. The question then becomes, do Adam, and Eve continue to trust in their own work, or do they trust in what God had supplied?

This theme continues on throughout the Old Testament until we arrive to the New Testament were Jesus is said to be the last complete sacrifice. With this being the case, while the rest of the world continues to be enslaved to morality, the Christian has been set free from this chase.
Jovian
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2/7/2016 8:18:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 8:07:38 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

The difference is really in, atheism doesn"t say anything about is murder right or wrong.

People get moral grounds from lots of things, not just religions.

In atheism person can make his own rules.

Which could be wildly interpreted.

In Christianity we have commandments like don"t murder.

Is being interpreted as everything from "don't even kill mosquitos" to "totally OK to kill unbelievers though".

Atheism doesn"t have any morals, it is just belief that God doesn"t exist, or non belief in any god. Christianity has morals. The problem is that many people may claim to be Christian, but don"t live according to the Christian rules. Why they do so?

Interpretations and denominations.

That should be asked from those who don"t live according to the Biblical rules. Probably it is, because they don"t really care about what the Bible says,

Like 95% of all Christians, since almost no one cares about 1 Timothy 2:9.

because they don"t really believe in God and don"t really understand why it is not right to murder.

You don't need a religion to understand why you don't have the right to take away someones life and to have compassion with how the victim's family and friends will suffer their entire lifetimes after the murder.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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2/8/2016 2:09:36 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:53:52 PM, Eliyahu wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:46:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:34:38 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
http://www.defendmag.com...

Answer to what I wrote you:

"We also have genocides commited by religious. For example the Armenian genocide commited by the theocracy of the Ottoman Empire, the Congolese genocide commited by the religious king Leopold II of Belgium, the Tutsi genocide of 1994 commited by a country where a vast majority say their religion is important for their lives."

ANSWER!

Bs"d

The only ones who murder THEIR OWN CITIZENS by the tens of millions, 200+ million in the 20th century, are the atheists.

Yes, some religious go wrong, some religious don't really follow the morals of their religion, but no religious went overboard in the way the atheist kill off their own citizens.

WOW 200+ million.
That means that your god killed the other 5.4 billion.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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2/9/2016 6:31:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 1:42:04 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

Hitler caused WWII to genocide religions as an Atheist

ME: Actually, he was a practicing Catholic, as practiced as he needed to be to stay in good stead with the Vatican. There was a Vatican Legate with him at all times.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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2/9/2016 6:36:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 1:46:39 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
Hitler Pick Apart

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise." Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953)." I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is" Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, fagg*ts? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."" (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."" (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."" (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

ME: What he said and what he d id was not the same, we all know that much. But by his words it looks like he had a bit of Satanic assistance in his words, and it puts the UN resolution to ban all religion right on target.
Peternosaint
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2/9/2016 6:42:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:04:04 AM, Jovian wrote:
Two people on this forum now, who should remain unmentioned for not letting this thread be about laughing at them, have been saying how moral only could exist with God and also that atheism should be connected to the 60 million people genocided by Stalin and so on. You know how their quotes go.

I've been asking both of these people now this question: "If religion is so much about morals and atheism not, why have there been so many religious wars during the Middle Ages, and yet up to this date in some countries?". Both of these people conveniently ignored the question.

That's another thing with the "no moral without God" stance. There are 10000s of religions in the world with their own moral grounds. A moral ground in a religion could also be interpreted in several different ways. "You shall not murder" could be interpreted as everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers", the latter one very often done historically by...religious.

And please don't answer this question with a no true scotsman fallacy now, like "these people were not true religious people". First of all, if someone has verbally claimed a religion, you can't prove said religious beliefs not existing in said person's brain, unless you are a god yourself who could read minds. Second, as I've showed, you can interpret moral grounds in many different ways, everything from "do not even murder mosquitos" to "it's OK to murder unbelievers".

ME: When you qualify your own answers, no one is going to be drawn into your argument for arguments sake.

What a stupid question: about the mosquitoes (Correct spelling) The Ten Commandments were directed at mankind, and had nothing to do with the creed of the Buddists.

The other stupid statement is "Its alright to murder unbelievers". The commandment , 'Thou shalt not kill' covers that one.

Ask something intelligent or go join Bullnose the de-composer and a few of that mob.