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Free will in Scripture?

ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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2/14/2016 8:17:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

Well I don't know exactly who you are referring to as "pagan", but for a good free will verse you can start with is in James 1

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

And.... Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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2/14/2016 8:42:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 8:40:24 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nope, not one of these passages answered my Q. But thanks for trying.

Okay, did you want to clarify anything? maybe I missed the correct question....
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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2/14/2016 9:00:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

That's the problem, the Bible does not teach the reasons, the rationale or the logic behind the ethical and moral decision making process, they always come in the form of a command, a threat or a consequence.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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2/14/2016 9:08:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 9:00:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

That's the problem, the Bible does not teach the reasons, the rationale or the logic behind the ethical and moral decision making process, they always come in the form of a command, a threat or a consequence.

How much do you need to be taught? the rationale is simple once the command is understood for example what "reasons, rationale or logic" needs to be taught in light of the verses I supplied above? The rational and reasons would be obvious lol..
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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2/14/2016 10:02:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 9:08:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 9:00:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

That's the problem, the Bible does not teach the reasons, the rationale or the logic behind the ethical and moral decision making process, they always come in the form of a command, a threat or a consequence.

How much do you need to be taught?

Are you under the delusion you have the capacity to teach?

the rationale is simple once the command is understood for example what "reasons, rationale or logic" needs to be taught in light of the verses I supplied above? The rational and reasons would be obvious lol..

Those verses mostly refer to meaningless spirit/spiritual baloney. There are no reasons rationale or logic whatsoever, there is only the threat/consequence of not entering the kingdom of God. That's not an explanation.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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2/14/2016 10:24:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

Are you saying all people that are not Christian do not have free will?
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/14/2016 10:29:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 10:24:40 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

Are you saying all people that are not Christian do not have free will?

I asked a question. I did not make a statement.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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2/14/2016 10:58:34 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 10:02:21 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 9:08:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 9:00:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

That's the problem, the Bible does not teach the reasons, the rationale or the logic behind the ethical and moral decision making process, they always come in the form of a command, a threat or a consequence.

How much do you need to be taught?

Are you under the delusion you have the capacity to teach?

Obviously you are under the delusion you have an idea of what is being discussed lol, when did I say anything about me teaching?? We all know you are ready to pull the delusional card trigger at any response, but grow up and stay on track.

the rationale is simple once the command is understood for example what "reasons, rationale or logic" needs to be taught in light of the verses I supplied above? The rational and reasons would be obvious lol..

Those verses mostly refer to meaningless spirit/spiritual baloney. There are no reasons rationale or logic whatsoever, there is only the threat/consequence of not entering the kingdom of God. That's not an explanation.

You don't need an explanation for this even though it explains itself... this is common sense humanity, doesn't need any rationale behind it, you failed to explain why, hence your response was a fail.

What rationale or logic needs to be clarified in the following....

Command...

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rationale....

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Another command/logic...

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Reasoning....

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Explanation....

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

More logic....

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

All explained with reason, rationale and logic, get a life infidel.
rnjs
Posts: 378
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2/15/2016 12:05:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls them self a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

Don't know if it says so in scripture,but common sense shows that free will is absolutely necessary,God can't force anyone to love him or his commands because enforced love would not be genuine.Everyone has the freedom to choose ,and along with that comes the possibility of the wrong choice.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/15/2016 12:40:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 8:42:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:40:24 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nope, not one of these passages answered my Q. But thanks for trying.

Okay, did you want to clarify anything? maybe I missed the correct question....

I thought those verses were dead on as an answer.

It shows clearly that the man has choice when tempted. tempted being the proverbial fork in the road the OP was talking about.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/15/2016 12:46:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:40:27 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:42:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:40:24 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nope, not one of these passages answered my Q. But thanks for trying.

Okay, did you want to clarify anything? maybe I missed the correct question....

I thought those verses were dead on as an answer.

It shows clearly that the man has choice when tempted. tempted being the proverbial fork in the road the OP was talking about.

The issue is not does man have a choice, but the ability to choose. The issue is not will, but free will.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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2/15/2016 1:32:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 10:58:34 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 10:02:21 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 9:08:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 9:00:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

That's the problem, the Bible does not teach the reasons, the rationale or the logic behind the ethical and moral decision making process, they always come in the form of a command, a threat or a consequence.

How much do you need to be taught?

Are you under the delusion you have the capacity to teach?

Obviously you are under the delusion you have an idea of what is being discussed lol, when did I say anything about me teaching?? We all know you are ready to pull the delusional card trigger at any response, but grow up and stay on track.

the rationale is simple once the command is understood for example what "reasons, rationale or logic" needs to be taught in light of the verses I supplied above? The rational and reasons would be obvious lol..

Those verses mostly refer to meaningless spirit/spiritual baloney. There are no reasons rationale or logic whatsoever, there is only the threat/consequence of not entering the kingdom of God. That's not an explanation.

You don't need an explanation for this even though it explains itself... this is common sense humanity, doesn't need any rationale behind it, you failed to explain why, hence your response was a fail.

What rationale or logic needs to be clarified in the following....

Command...

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rationale....

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

People were already living like that without the need of a command as it is something that originated from people having to live together in communities.


Another command/logic...

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Reasoning....

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Yes, that's the meaningless spirit nonsense.

Explanation....

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

LOL. Heresies and witchcraft? LOL. This shows the level of sanity of those who wrote it.

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

More logic....

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

All explained with reason, rationale and logic, get a life infidel.

All explained with the use of the meaningless word; spirit/spiritual.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/15/2016 2:27:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

There are NO legitimate xtians, only those that ' claim ' they are.

Even they don't have a freewill because they simply can't freely choose to stop sinning!
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/15/2016 2:31:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
It is hilarious that these atheist fools have such pathetic lives that they must share their worthless musings even where they are not wanted.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/15/2016 3:33:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 2:31:20 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
It is hilarious that these atheist fools have such pathetic lives that they must share their worthless musings even where they are not wanted.
Spoken like the true malignant Sinner you manifestly are!

You are a disgrace to jebus and a delight to your Devil! (1 John 3:6, 8)
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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2/15/2016 11:24:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 11:03:48 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nothing pisses off an atheist more than exposing how misplaced their self love is.
It's perhaps better than your doctrine of hate, oh yes I'd say much better.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Gentorev
Posts: 2,874
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2/15/2016 2:28:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 11:24:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/15/2016 11:03:48 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nothing pisses off an atheist more than exposing how misplaced their self love is.
It's perhaps better than your doctrine of hate, oh yes I'd say much better.

I am the First and the Last
The Beginning and End
The Alpha and Omega
The Father and Son.

And the last is the first. it is the Omega, the Most high to evolve within this period of universal activity, who descends to the beginnings of Space Time, as the Alpha, who knows every thing that you will do in your life, because you will have done it all in his Past and done it all according to your own free will, and you and you alone will be held accountable for the life that you lead.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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2/15/2016 2:59:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 2:28:29 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/15/2016 11:24:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/15/2016 11:03:48 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nothing pisses off an atheist more than exposing how misplaced their self love is.
It's perhaps better than your doctrine of hate, oh yes I'd say much better.

I am the First and the Last
The Beginning and End
The Alpha and Omega
The Father and Son.

And the last is the first. it is the Omega, the Most high to evolve within this period of universal activity, who descends to the beginnings of Space Time, as the Alpha, who knows every thing that you will do in your life, because you will have done it all in his Past and done it all according to your own free will, and you and you alone will be held accountable for the life that you lead.
It seems that you are claiming that it is god given righteous hate that comprises your doctrine. Oh well, that's down to the god you worship I guess.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
nothead
Posts: 371
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2/15/2016 3:53:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

We assume this ability since we are the formed and not the Former.

And there's something to the presupposition, since we are the formed and not the Former. We don't know how our free will coincides with Sovereign Will, and this is because em, we are the formed and not the Former, sir.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/15/2016 3:59:28 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 3:53:12 PM, nothead wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

We assume this ability since we are the formed and not the Former.

And there's something to the presupposition, since we are the formed and not the Former. We don't know how our free will coincides with Sovereign Will, and this is because em, we are the formed and not the Former, sir.

Please do not answer my inquiries if you are unable to answer my inquires. Thanks.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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2/16/2016 2:03:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:46:20 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 2/15/2016 12:40:27 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:42:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:40:24 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nope, not one of these passages answered my Q. But thanks for trying.

Okay, did you want to clarify anything? maybe I missed the correct question....

I thought those verses were dead on as an answer.

It shows clearly that the man has choice when tempted. tempted being the proverbial fork in the road the OP was talking about.

The issue is not does man have a choice, but the ability to choose. The issue is not will, but free will.

Lol, how do we have the ability to make a choice without choosing?? I would agree the term "free" is not applicable, as our actions have consequences... perhaps somewhere down the line someone jumped the gun when they implied "free" will, I think it's more of a figure of speech to explain man is not just some puppet attached to strings but "free" to make choices not necessarily free to do whatever they want without reciprocation.
nothead
Posts: 371
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2/16/2016 3:52:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 3:59:28 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 2/15/2016 3:53:12 PM, nothead wrote:
At 2/14/2016 5:13:13 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Can one who calls themself a Christian show me where the Bible says that the pagan man has a free will, which is to say, show me where it says that the pagan has the ability to choose to do either good or evil when facing a moral fork in the road? Thanks.

We assume this ability since we are the formed and not the Former.

And there's something to the presupposition, since we are the formed and not the Former. We don't know how our free will coincides with Sovereign Will, and this is because em, we are the formed and not the Former, sir.

Please do not answer my inquiries if you are unable to answer my inquires. Thanks.

You can't see what I see so of course you don't see any answer.

Sovereign Will is true, and man's will is true. FREE will was never said, but we assume our will is true since that's all we got to go by, being the formed and not the Former.

And since we don't know how these both are true together. GEDDIT? No, since you a man, a son of Adam. Paul said not to speculate upon how these both come together FOR THAT REASON, your own limitations in knowing.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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2/16/2016 4:01:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/16/2016 2:03:17 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/15/2016 12:46:20 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 2/15/2016 12:40:27 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:42:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 2/14/2016 8:40:24 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Nope, not one of these passages answered my Q. But thanks for trying.

Okay, did you want to clarify anything? maybe I missed the correct question....

I thought those verses were dead on as an answer.

It shows clearly that the man has choice when tempted. tempted being the proverbial fork in the road the OP was talking about.

The issue is not does man have a choice, but the ability to choose. The issue is not will, but free will.

Lol, how do we have the ability to make a choice without choosing?? I would agree the term "free" is not applicable, as our actions have consequences... perhaps somewhere down the line someone jumped the gun when they implied "free" will, I think it's more of a figure of speech to explain man is not just some puppet attached to strings but "free" to make choices not necessarily free to do whatever they want without reciprocation.

I have the choice to buy a new Ferrari or not, but my bank account limits my ability to choosing only no. So, until you are ready to provide Scripture, please bow out of this conversation.
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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2/16/2016 4:14:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Take heed of the word of the second class king.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin