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D D dee-em

Gentorev
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2/15/2016 6:46:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
dee-em wrote........If you accept that it is pure coincidence that a heavenly object seems to hang over a dwelling based on the circumstance of where the observer is positioned then you have conceded that the story is farcical.

Gentorev responds.........But I do not and never have accepted that it was pure coincidence that the Magi who were travelling from Jerusalem in the south and who were following in the direction of the "Hairy STAR" which they had seen in the north east of Israel immediately after leaving the palace of Herod the Great, had seen the star standing over the house of Mary and her child.

The HAIRY STAR of 5 BC, that they had first seen rising in the north east some 3 to 4 months previously, was then seen by those wise men to have "STOOD OVER" the house in the small and insignificant hamlet of Nazareth, in which Mary and her young child Jesus were found by the magi. Which makes your ridiculous statements farcical.

Dee-em wrote.......These were Magi trained in astronomy/astrology. They were wise in the way of celestial objects and, unlike you, could not have been foolish enough to attach any significance to where a comet may be in the sky at any particular moment in relation to earthly structures. They would have known, as any thinking person would know, that it was entirely coincidental. The whole concept is absurd.

Gentorev responds.......You are correct in stating that the magi were trained in astronomy/astrology. Now I am a little bit worried here that you, who have been proven to be so ignorant to certain subjects in the past, may not understand exactly what the Babylonian astrologists did.

The history of scholarly celestial divination is reported from old Babylonian texts to have begun around 1800 B.C., or even earlier, and those astrologists attached extreme importance and significance to the positions of all the heavenly bodies in relation to earth, and it was by studying those stars and their positions that their predictions of coming earthly events that they believed had or were to occur on earth.

After they had witnessed in 6 BC the clumping of Jupiter the King Star, with Mars the God of War, and Saturn the Jewish Messianic Star, I believe that they could come to no conclusion, other than the fact that they had witnessed the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of the Jewish King, who was prophesied to inherit the throne of the warrior King David, the promised Messiah/Saviour of Israel who was to subdue the surrounding nations and bring in a thousand years of peace.

After seeing the Hairy STAR of 5 BC appearing to come out of Jupiter the King planet, and head in a westerly direction, they followed in the direction of that Hairy STAR, apparently losing sight of it before reaching Jerusalem, perhaps due to dust, cloud or some other cause which resulted in poor visibility, then on leaving the palace of Herod, the star that they had seen rising in the north east, was sighted low in the heavens in the north west, and O what Joy was theirs.

dee-em wrote.........Which brings me to an earlier objection I had. The story is called "The Star of Bethlehem" not "The Comet of Bethlehem". Anyone with any astrological knowledge would not confuse the two. The ancients knew what a comet was and it was generally considered an ill omen. Hardly the sign that Magi would use to find a Jewish Messiah. The prophecy was for a star not a comet. Your theory is ridiculous even on face value. In ancient times, comets were seen as stars.

Gentorev responds........In the days of Jesus and before those days, comets were seen as and called STARS. The Greeks called comets "aster kometes" meaning hairy stars., Kometes, from which we get the word "Comet," but which, in ancient Greek means, "Long Hair," and "aster" which means STAR. You poor little dumb atheist child.

We can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel; it's late in the day and as they come to a rise, there on the distant horizon in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its massive tail streaming up into the heavens and appearing to stand over the small and insignificant Nazareth. The term "Stood Over" i ancient literature refers to comets and comets only. And we are told that the star stood over the HOUSE in which was Mary with her child, who by then was over 12 months old.

Those astrologers knew that the Hairy Star would lead them to the promised messianic king. But did they expect to see it standing over the house in which he was? I doubt it. But having seen the star pointing to that house, they knew that they had found the promised King of the Jews.
dee-em
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2/15/2016 11:32:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 6:46:24 AM, Gentorev wrote:
dee-em wrote........If you accept that it is pure coincidence that a heavenly object seems to hang over a dwelling based on the circumstance of where the observer is positioned then you have conceded that the story is farcical.

Gentorev responds.........But I do not and never have accepted that it was pure coincidence that the Magi who were travelling from Jerusalem in the south and who were following in the direction of the "Hairy STAR" which they had seen in the north east of Israel immediately after leaving the palace of Herod the Great, had seen the star standing over the house of Mary and her child.

But you did. Right here:

http://www.debate.org...

A heavenly object millions of kilometres from Earth can point to a structure on the surface of the Earth, according to the circumstances and the position of the persons who witnessed it.

The conversation is pointless because you refuse to accept the fact, that according to the circumstances and the position of the witness's in question, a comet can be and was seen to stand over an earthly structure.


Your own words contradict your denial.

The HAIRY STAR of 5 BC, that they had first seen rising in the north east some 3 to 4 months previously, was then seen by those wise men to have "STOOD OVER" the house in the small and insignificant hamlet of Nazareth, in which Mary and her young child Jesus were found by the magi. Which makes your ridiculous statements farcical.

There is no "hairy star" in Matthew. You are just making things up to suit your far-fetched theories. Neither was there a Nazareth during the alleged life of Jesus. The entire story is a pious fabrication to have Jesus fulfill a prophecy from the Hebrew Bible.

Dee-em wrote.......These were Magi trained in astronomy/astrology. They were wise in the way of celestial objects and, unlike you, could not have been foolish enough to attach any significance to where a comet may be in the sky at any particular moment in relation to earthly structures. They would have known, as any thinking person would know, that it was entirely coincidental. The whole concept is absurd.

Gentorev responds.......You are correct in stating that the magi were trained in astronomy/astrology. Now I am a little bit worried here that you, who have been proven to be so ignorant to certain subjects in the past, may not understand exactly what the Babylonian astrologists did.

The history of scholarly celestial divination is reported from old Babylonian texts to have begun around 1800 B.C., or even earlier, and those astrologists attached extreme importance and significance to the positions of all the heavenly bodies in relation to earth, and it was by studying those stars and their positions that their predictions of coming earthly events that they believed had or were to occur on earth.

After they had witnessed in 6 BC the clumping of Jupiter the King Star, with Mars the God of War, and Saturn the Jewish Messianic Star, I believe that they could come to no conclusion, other than the fact that they had witnessed the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of the Jewish King, who was prophesied to inherit the throne of the warrior King David, the promised Messiah/Saviour of Israel who was to subdue the surrounding nations and bring in a thousand years of peace.

After seeing the Hairy STAR of 5 BC appearing to come out of Jupiter the King planet, and head in a westerly direction, they followed in the direction of that Hairy STAR, apparently losing sight of it before reaching Jerusalem, perhaps due to dust, cloud or some other cause which resulted in poor visibility, then on leaving the palace of Herod, the star that they had seen rising in the north east, was sighted low in the heavens in the north west, and O what Joy was theirs.

More rambling nonsense that in no way addresses the point I made. Try rereading what I wrote and respond accordingly if you can.

dee-em wrote.........Which brings me to an earlier objection I had. The story is called "The Star of Bethlehem" not "The Comet of Bethlehem". Anyone with any astrological knowledge would not confuse the two. The ancients knew what a comet was and it was generally considered an ill omen. Hardly the sign that Magi would use to find a Jewish Messiah. The prophecy was for a star not a comet. Your theory is ridiculous even on face value. In ancient times, comets were seen as stars.

I did not write the bolded text.

Gentorev responds........In the days of Jesus and before those days, comets were seen as and called STARS. The Greeks called comets "aster kometes" meaning hairy stars., Kometes, from which we get the word "Comet," but which, in ancient Greek means, "Long Hair," and "aster" which means STAR. You poor little dumb atheist child.

Matthew wrote in Greek. He did not write "aster kometes". You have refuted yourself.

We can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel; it's late in the day and as they come to a rise, there on the distant horizon in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its massive tail streaming up into the heavens and appearing to stand over the small and insignificant Nazareth. The term "Stood Over" i ancient literature refers to comets and comets only. And we are told that the star stood over the HOUSE in which was Mary with her child, who by then was over 12 months old.

This is not an argument but your imagination at play. The Greek words for "stood over" are quite common and can be used in a variety of contexts. For example:

Ezekiel 11
23The glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.


Was God a comet? Lol.

Those astrologers knew that the Hairy Star would lead them to the promised messianic king. But did they expect to see it standing over the house in which he was? I doubt it. But having seen the star pointing to that house, they knew that they had found the promised King of the Jews.

You know, I think Monty Python missed a golden opportunity here when they were making Life of Brian:

Magi1: The star is hanging over that house in front of us. Let's go there.
Magi2: No, it is pointing to the house behind it!
Magi3: You're both wrong. It's pointing to that house at the edge of town.
Magi1&2: Why do you say that?
Magi3: It's closer to the star in the sky.
... (raucous aruing ensues) ...
Magi1: Quiet! Herod's men might be nearby.
Magi2&3: Yeah, shhhh.
Magi2: Perhaps we should toss a coin?
Etc etc.
Gentorev
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2/15/2016 1:11:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 11:32:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/15/2016 6:46:24 AM, Gentorev wrote:
dee-em wrote........If you accept that it is pure coincidence that a heavenly object seems to hang over a dwelling based on the circumstance of where the observer is positioned then you have conceded that the story is farcical.

Gentorev responds.........But I do not and never have accepted that it was pure coincidence that the Magi who were travelling from Jerusalem in the south and who were following in the direction of the "Hairy STAR" which they had seen in the north east of Israel immediately after leaving the palace of Herod the Great, had seen the star standing over the house of Mary and her child.

But you did. Right here:

http://www.debate.org...

A heavenly object millions of kilometres from Earth can point to a structure on the surface of the Earth, according to the circumstances and the position of the persons who witnessed it.


A heavenly object millions of kilometres from Earth can point to a structure on the surface of the Earth as proven by countless photos of comets appearing to stand over earthly structures such as individual houses, the Stone henge, cities, etc, etc.

Deny that dee-em and you will prove yourself to be the idiot that I know that you are.

And the circumstances that we are referring to, is the fact that the wise men had seen the STAR in the North west when they left the palace of Herod and they then travelled in that direction toward the position where they had seen the STAR.

Can you get that into that thick skull of yours?

And as to the position of the observers? They were travelling toward the star that they had first seen in the east, which was in the heavens behind the insignificant hamlet of Nazareth, with its tail streaming up into the heavens, and appeared to be standing over the house in which the child Jesus was; just as the photo of the Mc Naught comet appeared to be standing over the houses in that photograph..

The conversation is pointless because you refuse to accept the fact, that according to the circumstances and the position of the witness's in question, a comet can be and was seen to stand over an earthly structure.

Your own words contradict your denial.

No muggins, you might wish they do, but they don't.

There is no "hairy star" in Matthew. You are just making things up to suit your far-fetched theories. Neither was there a Nazareth during the alleged life of Jesus. The entire story is a pious fabrication to have Jesus fulfill a prophecy from the Hebrew Bible.

Correct! Matthew only mentions a moving STAR that led the magi to the child. In those days they didn't speak of comets, only STARS.


Dee-em wrote.......These were Magi trained in astronomy/astrology. They were wise in the way of celestial objects and, unlike you, could not have been foolish enough to attach any significance to where a comet may be in the sky at any particular moment in relation to earthly structures. They would have known, as any thinking person would know, that it was entirely coincidental. The whole concept is absurd.

Gentorev responds.......You are correct in stating that the magi were trained in astronomy/astrology. Now I am a little bit worried here that you, who have been proven to be so ignorant to certain subjects in the past, may not understand exactly what the Babylonian astrologists did.

The history of scholarly celestial divination is reported from old Babylonian texts to have begun around 1800 B.C., or even earlier, and those astrologists attached extreme importance and significance to the positions of all the heavenly bodies in relation to earth, and it was by studying those stars and their positions that their predictions of coming earthly events that they believed had or were to occur on earth.

After they had witnessed in 6 BC the clumping of Jupiter the King Star, with Mars the God of War, and Saturn the Jewish Messianic Star, I believe that they could come to no conclusion, other than the fact that they had witnessed the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of the Jewish King, who was prophesied to inherit the throne of the warrior King David, the promised Messiah/Saviour of Israel who was to subdue the surrounding nations and bring in a thousand years of peace.

After seeing the Hairy STAR of 5 BC appearing to come out of Jupiter the King planet, and head in a westerly direction, they followed in the direction of that Hairy STAR, apparently losing sight of it before reaching Jerusalem, perhaps due to dust, cloud or some other cause which resulted in poor visibility, then on leaving the palace of Herod, the star that they had seen rising in the north east, was sighted low in the heavens in the north west, and O what Joy was theirs.

More rambling nonsense that in no way addresses the point I made. Try rereading what I wrote and respond accordingly if you can.

I have done just that.

dee-em wrote.........Which brings me to an earlier objection I had. The story is called "The Star of Bethlehem" not "The Comet of Bethlehem". Anyone with any astrological knowledge would not confuse the two. The ancients knew what a comet was and it was generally considered an ill omen. Hardly the sign that Magi would use to find a Jewish Messiah. The prophecy was for a star not a comet. Your theory is ridiculous even on face value. In ancient times, comets were seen as stars.

I did not write the bolded text.

Gentorev responds........In the days of Jesus and before those days, comets were seen as and called STARS. The Greeks called comets "aster kometes" meaning hairy stars., Kometes, from which we get the word "Comet," but which, in ancient Greek means, "Long Hair," and "aster" which means STAR. You poor little dumb atheist child.

Matthew wrote in Greek. He did not write "aster kometes". You have refuted yourself.

Correct! in reference to the moving star that guided the magi from the east, to the town of Nazareth, Matthew simply used the Greek Aster, meaning star. I was simply emphasising the fact that in those days a comet was simply referred to as a star or a hairy star, but never, a comet.

We can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel; it's late in the day and as they come to a rise, there on the distant horizon in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its massive tail streaming up into the heavens and appearing to stand over the small and insignificant Nazareth. The term "Stood Over" i ancient literature refers to comets and comets only. And we are told that the star stood over the HOUSE in which was Mary with her child, who by then was over 12 months old.

To be continued.
Gentorev
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2/15/2016 2:00:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Continued from Post #3.


This is not an argument but your imagination at play. The Greek words for "stood over" are quite common and can be used in a variety of contexts. For example:

No they're not. The term "STOOD OVER" in ancient literature refers to comets and comets only.

Ezekiel 11
23The glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.


The New English Bible Ezekiel 11: 22- 23; Then the cherubim lifted their wings, with the wheels beside them and the glory of the God of Israel above them. The glory of the Lord rose up and left the city, and halted on the mountain to the east of it. No STOOD OVER there.

The Spirit filled life Bible Ezekiel 11: 22-23; So the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them and the glory of the God of Israel was high above them. And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain, which is on the east side of the city. No Mention of "STOOD OVER" there either.

RSV Bible: Ezekiel 11: 22-23; Then the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel over them. And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain, which is to the east of the city. Again, No "STOOD OVER."

Full Life Study Bible: Ezekiel 11: 22-23; Then the cherubim with the wheels beside them, Spread their wings, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them. The Glory of the Lord went up from within the city and stopped above the mountain to the east of it. We're getting nowhere here, are we muggins?

Good News Bible: Ezekiel 11: 22-23; The living creatures began to fly, and the wheels went with them. The dazzling light of the God of Israel was over them. Then the dazzling light left the city, and moved to the mountain east of it. Do you want me to keep going dumb, dumb, I've gathered many bibles in my long years of study?


Was God a comet? Lol.

Only a total idiot would ask such a dumb question. No! dumb dumb, God is not a comet. But comets are the chariots of God, and the chariots of God are depicted upon the lid of the covenant box, which used to stand under the shadow of the wings of the two greater cherubs within the Holy of Holies. And it would be a waste of my precious time to reveal to you in what form those cherubim are depicted and the significance they hold in our future, because it is far beyond your ignorant ability to comprehend.


Those astrologers knew that the Hairy Star would lead them to the promised messianic king. But did they expect to see it standing over the house in which he was? I doubt it. But having seen the star pointing to that house, they knew that they had found the promised King of the Jews.

Magi1: The star is hanging over that house in front of us. Let's go there.
Magi2: No, it is pointing to the house behind it!
Magi3: You're both wrong. It's pointing to that house at the edge of town.
Magi1&2: Why do you say that?
Magi3: It's closer to the star in the sky.
... (raucous aruing ensues) ...
Magi1: Quiet! Herod's men might be nearby.
Magi2&3: Yeah, shhhh.
Magi2: Perhaps we should toss a coin?

I think you've been tossing yourself, you wanker.
dee-em
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2/16/2016 3:35:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
In light of your continual abuse I am bowing out. We could have had a lively, entertaining discussion but you chose to be foul-mouthed and personal with your ad hominems. When you learn to keep a civil tongue let me know. Until then I bid you good day.
Gentorev
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2/16/2016 3:49:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/16/2016 3:35:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
In light of your continual abuse I am bowing out. We could have had a lively, entertaining discussion but you chose to be foul-mouthed and personal with your ad hominems. When you learn to keep a civil tongue let me know. Until then I bid you good day.

No we could not have had a decent discussion as you are a biblical ignoramus, and don't know what you are talking about, as is the case with the majority of atheists who haunt the religious forums, in the hope that they might be able to convert a believer over to their godless and hopeless way of life.

My insults toward you were merely in response to your continuous mockery and sarcastic remarks aimed at my belief, and toward my Lord and protector. So goodbye and good riddance.