Total Posts:42|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

War & Religion By Numbers

Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2016 5:14:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
- I am compiling a list of politically or religiously motivated conflicts, wars, civil wars, democides & structural killings, of over 100,000 death toll. I welcome every one to contribute by suggesting events of over 100,000 body count, after 0 AD of the Christian Era. The reason why I am excluding conflicts of less than 100,000 death toll is because I've already attempted to include many of them, just as numerous as the over-100,000, but at the end result, they only contribute less than 1% of total death toll. Statistically, this is insignificant, thus can be ignored.

- The idea of this compilation is very simple. To figure out the body count (from politically or religiously motivated hostilities) of the different religious common identities & cultures. & to do that I relied on the approach of another similar initial study. It's important to note that many of these hostilities are sanctioned against by the corresponding religions, but that's beside the point of this study.

- First step, distinguishing separate events of hostilities. Some conflicts last for less than a year, some for over 100 years. The distinction here would be based on continuous or systematic hostilities, & common: parties involved, states, peoples, patterns... For instance, the Fall of Rome is not an event, for it is too sporadic, while the 100 Years War is, as is the Conquest of the Americas (in regards to the Indian peoples).

- Second step, for the categorisation of different religious common identities I am going with the following:
1. Antitheist, reflecting mainly communist dominant identity, of states: USSR, communist China & Southeast Asia, & others.
2. Buddhist, reflecting buddhist common dominant identity, of peoples or states, in Southeast Asia, Japan, parts of China & India (in the past)...
3. Christian, reflecting Christian common dominant identity, in Europe, the New World, southern parts of Africa post-1800, colonial states, Byzantine pre-Arab Conquest...
4. Indic, reflecting Hindu common dominant identity, of peoples or states, mainly in the Indian subcontinent.
5. Islamic, reflecting Islamic common dominant identity, of peoples or states, in the Middle East, the northern part of Africa, Central + South + Southeast Asia...
6. Primal, reflecting primal or indigenous common culture, in pre-colonial Americas, pre-Christian Africa, Mongols...
7. Sinic, reflecting Confucianist/Daoist/Chinese common dominant identity, mainly in non-Buddhist China.

- Third step, deciding what conflict should be attributed to what identity. Usually, it's simple, sometimes, it's complicated. Basically, the simple approach is to pick the identity of the primary cause, the major instigating party, either a state or a people, in case there are more than one, then they equally share the responsibility.

- Final step, doing the maths. Given the loose nature of war body count, especially for pre-modern estimates, you generally find minimum estimates & maximum estimates. The median estimation I am going with is the logarithmic mean, which I think is the soundest. For instance, death toll estimates of WWII range from 55 to 85 million, the logarithmic mean being thus: ~69 million ; death toll estimates for WWI range from 15 to 66 million, the logarithmic mean being thus: ~34.5 million.

- So far, based on the data I've compiled (140 events pre-1900 + 100 events post-1900), which is far from being comprehensive, here are my initial findings:

Pre-1900
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Buddhist >>> 24 023 204 (7.3"%)
Christian >>> 122 922 610 (37.3"%)
Indic >>> 1 720 314 (0.5"%)
Islamic >>> 17 876 883 (5.4"%)
Primal >>> 51 489 807 (15.6"%)
Sinic >>> 111 443 197(33.8"%)
Total >>> 329 476 015 (100.0"%)

Post-1900
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Antitheist >>> 121 928 251 (39.7"%)
Buddhist >>> 59 896 340 (19.5"%)
Christian >>> 96 427 482 (31.4"%)
Indic >>> 512 669 (0.2"%)
Islamic >>> 11 523 101 (3.7"%)
Primal >>> 597 301 (0.2"%)
Sinic >>> 16 552 597 (5.4"%)
Total >>> 307 437 742 (100.0"%)

Total
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Antitheist >>> 121 928 251 (19.1"%)
Buddhist >>> 83 919 544 (13.2"%)
Christian >>> 219 350 093(34.4"%)
Indic >>> 2 232 983 (0.4"%)
Islamic >>> 30 394 323 (4.8"%)
Primal >>> 52 087 108 (8.2"%)
Sinic >>> 127 995 794 (20.1"%)
Total >>> 637 908 096 (100.0"%)

=> First remark, As you might've noticed, the Indic percentage is very low (0.4%), for I am having a hard time finding the corresponding estimates. In fact, I am having a hard time finding pre-1800 estimates relating to all South & Southeast Asia, & particularly Africa. I also have no stats of pre-Crusades Europe/Byzantine/Rome.

=> Second remark, the post-1900 trends are pretty much on point. They are dominated by Antitheist, Christian & Buddhist (90.6%). The most surprising fact here is that the Hindu contribution to deaths in the 20th century is insignificant (0.4%)! Which I love to hear an explanation for. The bulk of deaths by the Christian Civilisation comes from WWI & WWII (~71 million), the bulk of deaths by the Antitheist Civilisation comes from Mao China, & Stalin Soviet (~105 million), that by the Islamic Civilisation come mostly from civil wars, & by the Buddhist Civilisation almost entirely from Japan (~59 million).

=> Third remark, Pre-1900 trends are unlikely to change much either, even with additional data, for the gaps of difference between the categories are too great. They, too, are dominated by Christian, Sinic & Primal (86.7%). Therein, two trends could change, Christian vs Sinic, & Islamic vs Buddhist, might switch places, or more likely stay as they are. Over half the deaths caused by the Christian Civilisation is attributed to the Conquest of the Americas, & the Tai Ping Rebellion (~70 million). The bulk of those caused by the Sinic Civilisation go to the Three Kingdoms War, Fall of Ming Dynasty, & the Tai Ping Rebellion (~88 million). Two thirds of those by the Islamic Civilisation go to the Timurlenk Invasions (+12 million).

- It's important to remember two things. One, these are just initial findings, with additional data for (pre-modern South & Southeast Asia, Africa, pre-Crusades Europe/Byzantine/Rome...), the numbers will surely look quite different. Two, despite the former, it's unlikely there will a serious change in terms of ratios. The reason for that is because it takes few events like the Tai Ping Rebellion or the Mongol Invasion to decide the bulk of these numbers. You'd need hundreds of ordinary over-100,000-death toll events to do the damage one event such as the Tai Ping Rebellion did, & there aren't many of those!
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2016 10:51:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
The Grand Mufti of Iraq and Islam waere responsible for World War II. Notic the Mufti is in pictures with Hitler all of the time. He also provided 30,000 troops to the Nazi cause. Islam is Naziism with a god.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 3:40:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/22/2016 10:51:07 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
The Grand Mufti of Iraq and Islam waere responsible for World War II. Notic the Mufti is in pictures with Hitler all of the time. He also provided 30,000 troops to the Nazi cause. Islam is Naziism with a god.

- LOL! If you have an event in mind you want to contribute, then by all means. If not, then bye.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 5:30:42 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 4:08:26 AM, Leugen9001 wrote:
Japan is actually Shinto, not Buddhist.

- Mixed of both actually.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/22/2016 5:14:38 PM, Yassine wrote:
- I am compiling a list of politically or religiously motivated conflicts, wars, civil wars, democides & structural killings, of over 100,000 death toll. I welcome every one to contribute by suggesting events of over 100,000 body count, after 0 AD of the Christian Era. The reason why I am excluding conflicts of less than 100,000 death toll is because I've already attempted to include many of them, just as numerous as the over-100,000, but at the end result, they only contribute less than 1% of total death toll. Statistically, this is insignificant, thus can be ignored.

- The idea of this compilation is very simple. To figure out the body count (from politically or religiously motivated hostilities) of the different religious common identities & cultures. & to do that I relied on the approach of another similar initial study. It's important to note that many of these hostilities are sanctioned against by the corresponding religions, but that's beside the point of this study.

- First step, distinguishing separate events of hostilities. Some conflicts last for less than a year, some for over 100 years. The distinction here would be based on continuous or systematic hostilities, & common: parties involved, states, peoples, patterns... For instance, the Fall of Rome is not an event, for it is too sporadic, while the 100 Years War is, as is the Conquest of the Americas (in regards to the Indian peoples).

- Second step, for the categorisation of different religious common identities I am going with the following:
1. Antitheist, reflecting mainly communist dominant identity, of states: USSR, communist China & Southeast Asia, & others.
2. Buddhist, reflecting buddhist common dominant identity, of peoples or states, in Southeast Asia, Japan, parts of China & India (in the past)...
3. Christian, reflecting Christian common dominant identity, in Europe, the New World, southern parts of Africa post-1800, colonial states, Byzantine pre-Arab Conquest...
4. Indic, reflecting Hindu common dominant identity, of peoples or states, mainly in the Indian subcontinent.
5. Islamic, reflecting Islamic common dominant identity, of peoples or states, in the Middle East, the northern part of Africa, Central + South + Southeast Asia...
6. Primal, reflecting primal or indigenous common culture, in pre-colonial Americas, pre-Christian Africa, Mongols...
7. Sinic, reflecting Confucianist/Daoist/Chinese common dominant identity, mainly in non-Buddhist China.

- Third step, deciding what conflict should be attributed to what identity. Usually, it's simple, sometimes, it's complicated. Basically, the simple approach is to pick the identity of the primary cause, the major instigating party, either a state or a people, in case there are more than one, then they equally share the responsibility.

- Final step, doing the maths. Given the loose nature of war body count, especially for pre-modern estimates, you generally find minimum estimates & maximum estimates. The median estimation I am going with is the logarithmic mean, which I think is the soundest. For instance, death toll estimates of WWII range from 55 to 85 million, the logarithmic mean being thus: ~69 million ; death toll estimates for WWI range from 15 to 66 million, the logarithmic mean being thus: ~34.5 million.

- So far, based on the data I've compiled (140 events pre-1900 + 100 events post-1900), which is far from being comprehensive, here are my initial findings:

Pre-1900
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Buddhist >>> 24 023 204 (7.3"%)
Christian >>> 122 922 610 (37.3"%)
Indic >>> 1 720 314 (0.5"%)
Islamic >>> 17 876 883 (5.4"%)
Primal >>> 51 489 807 (15.6"%)
Sinic >>> 111 443 197(33.8"%)
Total >>> 329 476 015 (100.0"%)

Post-1900
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Antitheist >>> 121 928 251 (39.7"%)
Buddhist >>> 59 896 340 (19.5"%)
Christian >>> 96 427 482 (31.4"%)
Indic >>> 512 669 (0.2"%)
Islamic >>> 11 523 101 (3.7"%)
Primal >>> 597 301 (0.2"%)
Sinic >>> 16 552 597 (5.4"%)
Total >>> 307 437 742 (100.0"%)

Total
Civilization >>> Death Toll (% of total death toll)
Antitheist >>> 121 928 251 (19.1"%)
Buddhist >>> 83 919 544 (13.2"%)
Christian >>> 219 350 093(34.4"%)
Indic >>> 2 232 983 (0.4"%)
Islamic >>> 30 394 323 (4.8"%)
Primal >>> 52 087 108 (8.2"%)
Sinic >>> 127 995 794 (20.1"%)
Total >>> 637 908 096 (100.0"%)

=> First remark, As you might've noticed, the Indic percentage is very low (0.4%), for I am having a hard time finding the corresponding estimates. In fact, I am having a hard time finding pre-1800 estimates relating to all South & Southeast Asia, & particularly Africa. I also have no stats of pre-Crusades Europe/Byzantine/Rome.

=> Second remark, the post-1900 trends are pretty much on point. They are dominated by Antitheist, Christian & Buddhist (90.6%). The most surprising fact here is that the Hindu contribution to deaths in the 20th century is insignificant (0.4%)! Which I love to hear an explanation for. The bulk of deaths by the Christian Civilisation comes from WWI & WWII (~71 million), the bulk of deaths by the Antitheist Civilisation comes from Mao China, & Stalin Soviet (~105 million), that by the Islamic Civilisation come mostly from civil wars, & by the Buddhist Civilisation almost entirely from Japan (~59 million).

=> Third remark, Pre-1900 trends are unlikely to change much either, even with additional data, for the gaps of difference between the categories are too great. They, too, are dominated by Christian, Sinic & Primal (86.7%). Therein, two trends could change, Christian vs Sinic, & Islamic vs Buddhist, might switch places, or more likely stay as they are. Over half the deaths caused by the Christian Civilisation is attributed to the Conquest of the Americas, & the Tai Ping Rebellion (~70 million). The bulk of those caused by the Sinic Civilisation go to the Three Kingdoms War, Fall of Ming Dynasty, & the Tai Ping Rebellion (~88 million). Two thirds of those by the Islamic Civilisation go to the Timurlenk Invasions (+12 million).

- It's important to remember two things. One, these are just initial findings, with additional data for (pre-modern South & Southeast Asia, Africa, pre-Crusades Europe/Byzantine/Rome...), the numbers will surely look quite different. Two, despite the former, it's unlikely there will a serious change in terms of ratios. The reason for that is because it takes few events like the Tai Ping Rebellion or the Mongol Invasion to decide the bulk of these numbers. You'd need hundreds of ordinary over-100,000-death toll events to do the damage one event such as the Tai Ping Rebellion did, & there aren't many of those!

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone. It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

http://www.americanthinker.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
bulproof
Posts: 25,225
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.
What is an antitheist civilisation?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2016 12:09:58 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.

What is an antitheist civilisation?

- I've mentioned that in the OP, the Communists.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 1:12:46 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 12:09:58 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.

What is an antitheist civilisation?

- I've mentioned that in the OP, the Communists.

Along with so many other things you have no clue about, Communism is another one. I've lived in a Communist state for a year where there are as many believers and non-believers as most other places.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 4:21:56 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:12:46 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:09:58 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.

What is an antitheist civilisation?

- I've mentioned that in the OP, the Communists.

Along with so many other things you have no clue about,

- Sure, I am no omniscient being.

Communism is another one.

- Not in this case. I am quite certain Stalin & Mao were communists.

I've lived in a Communist state for a year where there are as many believers and non-believers as most other places.

- & millions of them died due to living in those communist states.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 4:51:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 4:21:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:12:46 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:09:58 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.

What is an antitheist civilisation?

- I've mentioned that in the OP, the Communists.

Along with so many other things you have no clue about,

- Sure, I am no omniscient being.

Communism is another one.

- Not in this case. I am quite certain Stalin & Mao were communists.

I've lived in a Communist state for a year where there are as many believers and non-believers as most other places.

- & millions of them died due to living in those communist states.

Islam is more dangerous than most ideological fascist regimes in that it promotes lying to the enemy, death, destruction, and intollerance, not to mention nearly 2 billion followers of a suicidal madman and child rapist who claimed to have met a demon to get a revelation in a cave while riding a human faced horse. Cricket. Cricket. Cricket...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 6:11:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 4:51:40 AM, brontoraptor wrote:

Islam is more dangerous than most ideological fascist regimes

- The numbers say otherwise. ~5% deaths to Islam, as opposed to ~35% deaths to Christianity (without counting pre-Crusade deadly events) is a pretty big difference, 7 times larger!

in that it promotes lying to the enemy, death, destruction, and intollerance,

- History says otherwise. The most intolerant of religions, historically speaking, is Christianity, given the fact that religious pluralism was unheard of in pre-modern Europe ; while the most tolerant is Islam, given the fact religious freedom was always guaranteed in the Islamic world, in belief & practice, from India to Spain, either in exchange for Jizyah, or without. The Europeans had to borrow the Ottoman way of religious freedom, the Millet System.

not to mention nearly 2 billion followers of a suicidal madman and child rapist who claimed to have met a demon to get a revelation in a cave while riding a human faced horse. Cricket. Cricket. Cricket...

- You've got your who's who mixed up. They rather follow a man called Jesus (pbuh) among others of equal merit.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 12:24:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Your suggestion is that currently the face of Islam has alike... a really bad rap due to some 'misguided' people.

Currently, if you hear of a group of people (civilians) being shot up, or a random car bomb, what is the sentiment of who-dun-it, and why?

These 'fine' folks are just as convinced that they are right as you are that they are wrong.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 2:47:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 12:24:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Your suggestion is that currently the face of Islam has alike... a really bad rap due to some 'misguided' people.

- I am not sure what you mean by this?!

Currently, if you hear of a group of people (civilians) being shot up, or a random car bomb, what is the sentiment of who-dun-it, and why?

- Sorry, I am not following. Can we talk simple English!

These 'fine' folks are just as convinced that they are right as you are that they are wrong.

- 'Folks' who? Right about what?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 2:51:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:47:38 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 12:24:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Your suggestion is that currently the face of Islam has alike... a really bad rap due to some 'misguided' people.

- I am not sure what you mean by this?!

Currently, if you hear of a group of people (civilians) being shot up, or a random car bomb, what is the sentiment of who-dun-it, and why?

- Sorry, I am not following. Can we talk simple English!

What part of the responsible party for current instances of mass murder or explosive device against civilian populations is giving you trouble?

These 'fine' folks are just as convinced that they are right as you are that they are wrong.

- 'Folks' who? Right about what?

The folks committing the above instances.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 2:54:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:51:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

What part of the responsible party for current instances of mass murder or explosive device against civilian populations is giving you trouble?

- I am sorry, I got nothing. I read this several times, & nothing... What is it you're trying to say? What responsible party? What current instances of mass murder? What do you mean 'giving you trouble'?

The folks committing the above instances.

- Who? What instances?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 3:13:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:54:57 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 2:51:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

What part of the responsible party for current instances of mass murder or explosive device against civilian populations is giving you trouble?

- I am sorry, I got nothing. I read this several times, & nothing... What is it you're trying to say? What responsible party? What current instances of mass murder? What do you mean 'giving you trouble'?

The folks committing the above instances.

- Who? What instances?

Lets play a game involving hypotheticals:

mass shooting occurs in Europe.

Odds are who did it, and why?

Car bomb detonates in Turkey.

Odds are who did it, and why?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 3:19:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:13:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Lets play a game involving hypotheticals:

- Why? Where are going with this?

mass shooting occurs in Europe.

Odds are who did it, and why?

- I am guessing a white European male, because of 'insanity'.

Car bomb detonates in Turkey.

Odds are who did it, and why?

- I am guessing it's likely ISIS or the PKK, for political reasons.

- What is your point?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 3:26:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:19:03 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 3:13:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Lets play a game involving hypotheticals:

- Why? Where are going with this?

mass shooting occurs in Europe.

Odds are who did it, and why?

- I am guessing a white European male, because of 'insanity'.

Is that where the odds lay?

Car bomb detonates in Turkey.

Odds are who did it, and why?

- I am guessing it's likely ISIS or the PKK, for political reasons.

- What is your point?

Currently the most probable cause of mass violence is not "Christendom", its radical Islam. "while the most tolerant is Islam, given the fact religious freedom was always guaranteed in the Islamic world, in belief & practice, from India to Spain" seems to have fallen flat. Until such time as the Muslim world cleans its house, glass houses.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 5:04:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:26:59 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Is that where the odds lay?

- Most likely, yes.

Currently the most probable cause of mass violence is not "Christendom", its radical Islam.

- I don't know about that. You're speaking of a specific type of mass violence, political terrorism, which wasn't the case pre-2001. Mass shootings otherwise, & gang terrorism, are dominated by Christendom (the Mexican Drug War alone cost the lives of +100,000 people from 2006). Another type of violence, state terrorism, such as the War on Terror (2001-2015) which caused the deaths of up to 1,260,000 people, majoritarily by nations of Christian background. A third type, civil wars, are happening almost everywhere save western countries, although currently the deadliest of them are happening in Muslim countries, which wasn't the case few years back. For instance, the 2nd Congo War (1998-2007) caused the death of up to 5.4 million people, & the 2nd Liberian Civil War (1999-2003) caused the deaths of up to 300,000 people, both of which are Christian majority nations... etc.

"while the most tolerant is Islam, given the fact religious freedom was always guaranteed in the Islamic world, in belief & practice, from India to Spain" seems to have fallen flat.

- Not really. There are conflicts here & there in the Muslim world, & there were many more in the past. People disagree, & sometimes they tend to fight it out. When I said, religious freedom always exited in the Islamic world, I didn't mean literally all the time! I just meant, that was the dominant trend. Nevertheless, there is indeed a serious problem with Islam today, not the religion itself, but the ways it's been turned into by many muslims, from both extremes. It's a mess.

Until such time as the Muslim world cleans its house,

- Conflicts aren't supposed to be perpetuate. They'll eventually end, especially when western meddling ceases, or at least weakens.

glass houses.

- On the contrary. I am not speaking of claims, I am speaking of mere numbers. & according to numbers, Christendom somehow always manages to have a heavy death toll on its back.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
ssadi
Posts: 324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 5:43:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:13:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/24/2016 2:54:57 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 2:51:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

What part of the responsible party for current instances of mass murder or explosive device against civilian populations is giving you trouble?

- I am sorry, I got nothing. I read this several times, & nothing... What is it you're trying to say? What responsible party? What current instances of mass murder? What do you mean 'giving you trouble'?

The folks committing the above instances.

- Who? What instances?

Lets play a game involving hypotheticals:

Car bomb detonates in Turkey.

Odds are who did it, and why?

TAK (a branch of PKK) said: "We did it."

Who won the game?
Or were they created without anything being before them (or out of something different than the basic material of all creation, so that they know things others do not), or are they the creators (of themselves, so that they can maintain themselves and are free in their acts)? Or did they create the heavens and the earth (so that their sovereignty belongs to them)? No indeed. Rather, they have no certain knowledge (about creation, humankind, and the basic facts concerning them).

Quran, 52:35-36
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 6:09:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 5:04:21 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 3:26:59 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Is that where the odds lay?

- Most likely, yes.

Currently the most probable cause of mass violence is not "Christendom", its radical Islam.

- I don't know about that. You're speaking of a specific type of mass violence, political terrorism, which wasn't the case pre-2001.

" Currently the most probable cause "....

Mass shootings otherwise, & gang terrorism, are dominated by Christendom (the Mexican Drug War alone cost the lives of +100,000 people from 2006).

Which is arguably not Christendom. (this point will be touched on in a second)

Another type of violence, state terrorism, such as the War on Terror (2001-2015) which caused the deaths of up to 1,260,000 people, majoritarily by nations of Christian background.

Self defense, bro. You IDed that yourself by date, above.

A third type, civil wars, are happening almost everywhere save western countries, although currently the deadliest of them are happening in Muslim countries, which wasn't the case few years back. For instance, the 2nd Congo War (1998-2007) caused the death of up to 5.4 million people, & the 2nd Liberian Civil War (1999-2003) caused the deaths of up to 300,000 people, both of which are Christian majority nations... etc.

I personally wouldn't count a civil war in any country for any reason, but that is subject to tabulator's purview.

"while the most tolerant is Islam, given the fact religious freedom was always guaranteed in the Islamic world, in belief & practice, from India to Spain" seems to have fallen flat.

- Not really. There are conflicts here & there in the Muslim world, & there were many more in the past. People disagree, & sometimes they tend to fight it out. When I said, religious freedom always existed in the Islamic world, I didn't mean literally all the time! I just meant, that was the dominant trend. Nevertheless, there is indeed a serious problem with Islam today, not the religion itself, but the ways it's been turned into by many muslims, from both extremes. It's a mess.

Much in the same way there is a problem with drug dealers and gang bangers, as they are not promoting "Christendom" for the reason of their warring. This is the point I was mentioned I would hit later. The bad reputation is coming from Islam (well, parts of it) and its desire to spread. Such is not the case regarding most of the other instances you bring up.

Until such time as the Muslim world cleans its house,

- Conflicts aren't supposed to be perpetuate. They'll eventually end, especially when western meddling ceases, or at least weakens.

So, what was the problem pre 2001? That seems to be the touch stone, and we all know why western influence jumped by leaps and bounds.

glass houses.

- On the contrary. I am not speaking of claims, I am speaking of mere numbers. & according to numbers, Christendom somehow always manages to have a heavy death toll on its back.

In what way is a drug dealer peddling Christianity? Compare that to your typical jihadist.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 8:00:52 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 6:09:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

" Currently the most probable cause "....

- Of said specific type of violence, sure. So?

Which is arguably not Christendom.

- Well, arguably neither is "Islamic-dom" associated with terrorism. That's beside the point entirely.

Self defense, bro.

- Not when you cross an ocean & two continents, to lay waste of nations & peoples who are innocent. Regardless, the instigators of War on Terror are overwhelmingly nations of Christian background, which is the relevant aspect of my assessments. I only count something as self-defence when it's either a successful resistance to unwarranted outside attacks, or a war of independence from outside colonial force. For instance, the Arab Conquests started as a defensive campaign against Byzantine & Persian hostilities. & the Arab Conquests of India started after Arabs conquered Persia & inherited its enemies, including the Indian dynasties. They didn't event those enemies, they were there from the start. In both cases, the Arabs could've been defeated & gone forever, but they were too good at winning, that's why the wars continued & they kept advancing until no enemies were left on sight. Point being, a much more direct & credible case of self-defence can be made for these conquests, but given the fact that the Arabs won, they've thereby became the instigators, & thus I had to count them as such. Which is why I attributed the death toll of Arab Conquests to the Islamic Civilisation, & not to the others, even though they were the provokers.

You IDed that yourself by date, above.

- 3,000 civilian deaths by some terrorist group, vs 1,260,000 deaths (overwhelmingly civilian) by states, yeah right. This is also a remarkable observation I made when I was picking out & going through the different conflicts in my study. The West displays, consistently, very distinct & very disproportionate acts of vengeance, unseen in other civilisations. I am guessing this is due to the supremacist & callous aspect of western hegemony. I mean every time they lose something of theirs, justice & humanity flies out the window, & they become unstoppable & indiscriminate forces of destruction.

I personally wouldn't count a civil war in any country for any reason, but that is subject to tabulator's purview.

- In case you missed the OP. This isn't about religious wars, rather, it's about wars by peoples who share a common religious identity, who might as well be acting against their religious directives. Congo & Liberia are Christian nations, as Christian as they come. It's irrelevant wether their civil wars were religiously motivated.

Much in the same way there is a problem with drug dealers and gang bangers, as they are not promoting "Christendom" for the reason of their warring.

- Irrelevant, & they still are of Christian background.
This is the point I was mentioned I would hit later.

- Well, it's pointless.

The bad reputation is coming from Islam (well, parts of it)

- According to numbers, a very small number of deaths can actually be associated with such claims. Boko Haram being the deadliest of all these groups is reported to have killed up to 20,000 people in the course of 7 years (2009-2015), that's a small fraction out of casualties of say, the Syrian Civil War, or the War on Terror.

and its desire to spread.

- If so, then on a much lesser scale than the western desire to actual dominion. In truth, all these groups want is to be left alone, for western influence to be removed.

Such is not the case regarding most of the other instances you bring up.

- Don't be too sure. African countries are quite religious. For instance, the Congo War has strong religious motivations, as the name Lord's Resistance Army elucidates, or the ethnic cleansing going on in Central Africa... George Bush, too, saw himself as a Christian saviour, & saw the War as a Christian duty. & I am pretty sure a lot of Americans share his sentiments.

- Besides, as far as body count is concerned, the type of violence you speak of contribute insignificant numbers to the total death toll.

So, what was the problem pre 2001?

- No War on Terror, no Afghanistan Invasion, no 2nd Iraq Invasion...

That seems to be the touch stone, and we all know why western influence jumped by leaps and bounds.

- No. Western influence was long there, & still is. Remember, COLONIALISM? Cold War? The Shah? Israel? 1st Iraq Invasion?...

In what way is a drug dealer peddling Christianity?

- I don't know, & I don't care. But, I bet many of these drug lords see themselves as devout Christians.

Compare that to your typical jihadist.

- Funny you should say that, 'Jihadi terrorists' are known to deal in drugs too. Drug trafficking is apparently one of their main sources of fundings, despite the fact that selling, storing or consuming drugs is unlawful in Islam. Which isn't surprising at all, given it's also known that these fake Jihadis are very often non-practicing Muslims, or ex-criminals, & their victims are almost all Muslim.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 8:30:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 8:00:52 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 6:09:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

" Currently the most probable cause "....

- Of said specific type of violence, sure. So?

Which is arguably not Christendom.

- Well, arguably neither is "Islamic-dom" associated with terrorism. That's beside the point entirely.

Self defense, bro.

- Not when you cross an ocean & two continents, to lay waste of nations & peoples who are innocent.

You are talking about the initial attacks on the WTC then, correct?

Regardless, the instigators of War on Terror are overwhelmingly nations of Christian background,...

I consider the 'Terrorists' to be the instigator, so I am not sure how you see it that way.

which is the relevant aspect of my assessments. I only count something as self-defence when it's either a successful resistance to unwarranted outside attacks,

By definition a terrorist attack...

or a war of independence from outside colonial force. For instance, the Arab Conquests started as a defensive campaign against Byzantine & Persian hostilities. & the Arab Conquests of India started after Arabs conquered Persia & inherited its enemies, including the Indian dynasties. They didn't event those enemies, they were there from the start. In both cases, the Arabs could've been defeated & gone forever, but they were too good at winning, that's why the wars continued & they kept advancing until no enemies were left on sight. Point being, a much more direct & credible case of self-defence can be made for these conquests, but given the fact that the Arabs won, they've thereby became the instigators, & thus I had to count them as such. Which is why I attributed the death toll of Arab Conquests to the Islamic Civilisation, & not to the others, even though they were the provokers.

You IDed that yourself by date, above.

- 3,000 civilian deaths by some terrorist group, vs 1,260,000 deaths (overwhelmingly civilian) by states, yeah right.

Terrorist by definition are civilian, Yassine. And due to how a terrorist... 'fights' (hiding in civilian populations), that is to be expected. The immediate resolution to prevent civilian deaths would be to stop being a terrorist. Its good for your life and those around you.

This is also a remarkable observation I made when I was picking out & going through the different conflicts in my study. The West displays, consistently, very distinct & very disproportionate acts of vengeance, unseen in other civilisations. I am guessing this is due to the supremacist & callous aspect of western hegemony. I mean every time they lose something of theirs, justice & humanity flies out the window, & they become unstoppable & indiscriminate forces of destruction.

Indeed. However I have often found the penalty of a crime escalates to match the criminal's desire to commit it.

I personally wouldn't count a civil war in any country for any reason, but that is subject to tabulator's purview.

- In case you missed the OP. This isn't about religious wars, rather, it's about wars by peoples who share a common religious identity, who might as well be acting against their religious directives. Congo & Liberia are Christian nations, as Christian as they come. It's irrelevant wether their civil wars were religiously motivated.

Much in the same way there is a problem with drug dealers and gang bangers, as they are not promoting "Christendom" for the reason of their warring.

- Irrelevant, & they still are of Christian background.

But not promoting the religion in the engagement. That is 'irrelevant' to you? Its not their religion compelling them to act.

This is the point I was mentioned I would hit later.

- Well, it's pointless.

Perhaps.

The bad reputation is coming from Islam (well, parts of it)

- According to numbers, a very small number of deaths can actually be associated with such claims. Boko Haram being the deadliest of all these groups is reported to have killed up to 20,000 people in the course of 7 years (2009-2015), that's a small fraction out of casualties of say, the Syrian Civil War, or the War on Terror.

and its desire to spread.

- If so, then on a much lesser scale than the western desire to actual dominion. In truth, all these groups want is to be left alone, for western influence to be removed.

They should probably stop beheading foreign nationals, then.

Such is not the case regarding most of the other instances you bring up.

- Don't be too sure. African countries are quite religious. For instance, the Congo War has strong religious motivations, as the name Lord's Resistance Army elucidates, or the ethnic cleansing going on in Central Africa... George Bush, too, saw himself as a Christian saviour, & saw the War as a Christian duty. & I am pretty sure a lot of Americans share his sentiments.

- Besides, as far as body count is concerned, the type of violence you speak of contribute insignificant numbers to the total death toll.

So, what was the problem pre 2001?

- No War on Terror, no Afghanistan Invasion, no 2nd Iraq Invasion...

And then some dudes decided two cross an ocean and 2 continents and smash a plane into a building.

Before that, it was a car bomb under the WTC, but we turned the other cheek.

That seems to be the touch stone, and we all know why western influence jumped by leaps and bounds.

- No. Western influence was long there, & still is. Remember,
COLONIALISM?

What US colonies are in the Mid East?

Cold War?

Regarding what? Afghanistan become a Russian province?

The Shah?

Ironic that Iran hasn't been directly connected to Western terrorism...

Israel?
What about them?

1st Iraq Invasion?...
Defense pact with Kuwait?


In what way is a drug dealer peddling Christianity?

- I don't know, & I don't care.

That's the problem.

Compare that to your typical jihadist.

- Funny you should say that, 'Jihadi terrorists' are known to deal in drugs too. Drug trafficking is apparently one of their main sources of fundings, despite the fact that selling, storing or consuming drugs is unlawful in Islam. Which isn't surprising at all, given it's also known that these fake Jihadis are very often non-practicing Muslims, or ex-criminals, & their victims are almost all Muslim.

And they are STILL trying to spread Islam in its efforts. Christendom isn't.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2016 10:39:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 8:30:46 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

You are talking about the initial attacks on the WTC then, correct?

- No. A tower collapsing is hardly laying waste to a nation, having 1/5th the population either killed or displaced is. More people are killed every 2 weeks in Syria than those who died in the towers.

I consider the 'Terrorists' to be the instigator, so I am not sure how you see it that way.

- The terrorists are the instigators of the terrorist attacks. The US & its allies are the instigators of the War on Terror, including, the Iraq Invasion & the Afghanistan Invasion, & the drone killings...etc. Iraq didn't declare war on the US & drag its 'fleet' to the East Coast, the opposite happened.

By definition

- Heck no.

a terrorist attack...

- No, more like an invasion or a raid or something.

Terrorist by definition are civilian, Yassine.

- Not if they are militants, Pal.

And due to how a terrorist... 'fights' (hiding in civilian populations),

- It's not like it matters to the West either way.

that is to be expected.

- Well, at least they aren't drones.

The immediate resolution to prevent civilian deaths would be to stop being a terrorist.

- True, especially the part about being the US government.

Its good for your life and those around you.

- & the world at large.

Indeed.

- Thanks for confirming my observations. I mean, I was shocked at how the Brits reacted when the rebels killed some of their women in India, they laid waste to the entire country & put people inside cannons & literally fired them, some historians say they killed up to 10 million the next ten years. Or what they did when some Egyptians killed one of their commanders, wow! Ultimate barbarism...

However I have often found the penalty of a crime escalates to match the criminal's desire to commit it.

- Are you suggesting we should invade the US & erase 1/5th its population to match its crimes?

But not promoting the religion in the engagement.

- That's what you see. Someone in the Muslim world would consider everyone there as Christian promoting his religion, just like what you're doing here.

That is 'irrelevant' to you?

- It is, to the study I am conducting, yes.

Its not their religion compelling them to act.

- You don't know that!

They should probably stop beheading foreign nationals, then.

- The US should probably stop killing innocent people by drones, then. & probably stop causing the deaths & displacement of millions of Muslims too. & should've probably, beside Europe, not caused such unimaginable damage to the Muslim world. You're speaking from an untenable position, as you wish the total submission of all people to the US regardless of its oppressive & aggressive policies. It isn't going to happen, no matter how lovely you label the policies, & how horribly you label the opponents.

And then some dudes decided two cross an ocean and 2 continents and smash a plane into a building.

- & an entire nation with its government decide to do the same out of childish spite & inflict destruction on nations & peoples innocent of what those dudes did. Not to mention, these 'dudes' happen to be the very creation of that government.

Before that, it was a car bomb under the WTC, but we turned the other cheek.

- Right, you sound like the guy who killed half the village, then some villager came & poked him, then poked him again, & he said: 'well, you poked me once, & I turned the other cheek, now I am gonna kill the other half of your village because you poked me twice'. No sane person actually believes that the Invasion of Iraq (& other aggressions) was about 'terrorism', it was about dominion (getting rid of a rogue dictator who was unobedient to US policies), oil, & Israel.

COLONIALISM?

- Yes, over a century of that.

What US colonies are in the Mid East?

- The ongoing occupation.

Cold War? Regarding what? Afghanistan become a Russian province?

- Tons of things. Such as the support of the anti-communist party in Indonesia, which caused the deaths of over 1 million Indonesian, called by the American secretary "a victory for freedom".

The Shah?

- Yes.

Ironic that Iran hasn't been directly connected to Western terrorism...

- Hamas, Hizbullah...

Israel?
What about them?

- Ongoing occupation, apartheid state, fully supported by the US.

1st Iraq Invasion?...
Defence pact with Kuwait?

- It's a war. A pattern.

That's the problem.

- For you, yes.

And they are STILL trying to spread Islam in its efforts.

- One: there is very little evidence of that, they don't even know the religion to even spread it. Two: there is ample evidence that the reasons are almost all related to western influence & US foreign policy.

Christendom isn't.

- On the contrary, it always is. All in all, the numbers speak amply for West/Christendom deadly hegemony. There is just no getting out of this. But considering historical precedences, they've come a long way into mitigating this deadliness. Or maybe, they just got better at PR. :-)
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2016 1:18:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 4:21:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:12:46 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:09:58 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 12:08:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:55:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:54:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Your numbers are bs. Islam alone conservatively puts the numbers killed at over 250 million, 80 million just in India alone.

- Don't sell the numbers short, it was more like 560 million, with apparently 400 million in India alone (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...). Or, I am thinking it's over 1 billion, with 850 million in India alone. Then again, why not 5 billion, or 10, or 100?

It was the Greatest Murder Machine ever conceived.

- Oh! Really? Sure, just show me the deadly events this 'murder machine' perpetrated & I'll happily add them. & actual credible sources of such events would be appreciated. 80, 200, 300, 400 million from thin air, ain't gonna cut it.

- On a similar note, according to the same findings, the 'deadliest machine ever conceived' by deaths/year is the Antitheist Civilisation, with an average of +1,670,000 deaths/year from 1917 to 1989, nearly ten times the next civilisation in order.

What is an antitheist civilisation?

- I've mentioned that in the OP, the Communists.

Along with so many other things you have no clue about,

- Sure, I am no omniscient being.

Communism is another one.

- Not in this case. I am quite certain Stalin & Mao were communists.

Are you really certain? Wow, That still doesn't mean you know anything about communism, clearly you don't.

I've lived in a Communist state for a year where there are as many believers and non-believers as most other places.

- & millions of them died due to living in those communist states.

Many, many more millions died at the hands of Muslims. People died in Communist states, in democratic states, in fascist states. Try getting a clue, dude.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2016 2:49:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 10:39:43 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/24/2016 8:30:46 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

You are talking about the initial attacks on the WTC then, correct?

- No. A tower collapsing is hardly laying waste to a nation, having 1/5th the population either killed or displaced is. More people are killed every 2 weeks in Syria than those who died in the towers.

Syria is also civil war based, which is why I prefer not consider civil wars. Its own population rose up against itself.

I consider the 'Terrorists' to be the instigator, so I am not sure how you see it that way.

- The terrorists are the instigators of the terrorist attacks. The US & its allies are the instigators of the War on Terror, including, the Iraq Invasion & the Afghanistan Invasion, & the drone killings...etc. Iraq didn't declare war on the US & drag its 'fleet' to the East Coast, the opposite happened.

First by means of Iraq invading Kuwait, next by harboring the people whom conducted the attack on the towers. What I will grant is the 2nd invasion of Iraq over the WMD (lack there of) situation.

By definition

- Heck no.

a terrorist attack...

- No, more like an invasion or a raid or something.

Terrorist by definition are civilian, Yassine.

- Not if they are militants, Pal.

See many military officers using human shields on the front? Hiding in churches? They are civilians biting off more than they can chew, granted, but they are still biting it off with the desire to not wear a uniform, establish operational basis and the like.

And due to how a terrorist... 'fights' (hiding in civilian populations),

- It's not like it matters to the West either way.

Perhaps they should try it if they are concerned about deaths of other civilians.

that is to be expected.

- Well, at least they aren't drones.

The immediate resolution to prevent civilian deaths would be to stop being a terrorist.

- True, especially the part about being the US government.

Its good for your life and those around you.

- & the world at large.

Indeed.

- Thanks for confirming my observations. I mean, I was shocked at how the Brits reacted when the rebels killed some of their women in India, they laid waste to the entire country & put people inside cannons & literally fired them, some historians say they killed up to 10 million the next ten years. Or what they did when some Egyptians killed one of their commanders, wow! Ultimate barbarism...

However I have often found the penalty of a crime escalates to match the criminal's desire to commit it.

- Are you suggesting we should invade the US & erase 1/5th its population to match its crimes?

No, I am suggesting that further attacks by radical Muslims halt so as to stop being on the receiving end of such 'unfair' retribution. Terror related organizations want to invade and blow up the Pentagon? Peachy, have at it. Want to sink our destroyers in port? Fantastic, go for it. But you and I both know the military is not the target.

But not promoting the religion in the engagement.

- That's what you see. Someone in the Muslim world would consider everyone there as Christian promoting his religion, just like what you're doing here.

This just further demonstrates the disconnect to reality those fine folks have, and how demonstrably untrue that is.

That is 'irrelevant' to you?

- It is, to the study I am conducting, yes.

Its not their religion compelling them to act.

- You don't know that!

I know I can suggest evidence to my assertion. Can you prove that opinion (Christendom is being spread through such violence) is just as plain?

They should probably stop beheading foreign nationals, then.

- The US should probably stop killing innocent people by drones, then. & probably stop causing the deaths & displacement of millions of Muslims too. & should've probably, beside Europe, not caused such unimaginable damage to the Muslim world. You're speaking from an untenable position, as you wish the total submission of all people to the US regardless of its oppressive & aggressive policies. It isn't going to happen, no matter how lovely you label the policies, & how horribly you label the opponents.

Considering the brutality their own dispense upon themselves, I am not terribly concerned as to what the rest of the world thinks of us dropping bombs on people whom cage and burn/behead, teach their kids execution drills.

And then some dudes decided two cross an ocean and 2 continents and smash a plane into a building.

- & an entire nation with its government decide to do the same out of childish spite & inflict destruction on nations & peoples innocent of what those dudes did.

Yes. Actions have consequences. Do you honestly expect any nation to sit idly by while further interesting engagement gets planned?

Not to mention, these 'dudes' happen to be the very creation of that government.

Ironically to prevent the Russians from annexing further parts of the mideast. No good deed, it seems.

Before that, it was a car bomb under the WTC, but we turned the other cheek.

- Right, you sound like the guy who killed half the village, then some villager came & poked him, then poked him again, & he said: 'well, you poked me once, & I turned the other cheek, now I am gonna kill the other half of your village because you poked me twice'. No sane person actually believes that the Invasion of Iraq (& other aggressions) was about 'terrorism', it was about dominion (getting rid of a rogue dictator who was unobedient to US policies), oil, & Israel.

Regarding oil, what do you think the endgame for that was?

COLONIALISM?

- Yes, over a century of that.

What US colonies are in the Mid East?

- The ongoing occupation.

So no actual colonies, then.

Cold War? Regarding what? Afghanistan become a Russian province?

- Tons of things. Such as the support of the anti-communist party in Indonesia, which caused the deaths of over 1 million Indonesian, called by the American secretary "a victory for freedom".

America can't support potential allies in other countries?

The Shah?

- Yes.

Ironic that Iran hasn't been directly connected to Western terrorism...

- Hamas, Hizbullah...

They recognize those outfits, not directly support them, secondly, Hamas and Hezbullah haven't claimed responsibility for much beyond attacks on Israel.

Israel?
What about them?

- Ongoing occupation, apartheid state, fully supported by the US.

What exactly prevents Palestinians from integration?

1st Iraq Invasion?...
Defence pact with Kuwait?

- It's a war. A pattern.

It was Iraq's invasion of a sovereign ally.

That's the problem.

- For you, yes.

And they are STILL trying to spread Islam in its efforts.

- One: there is very little evidence of that, they don't even know the religion to even spread it. Two: there is ample evidence that the reasons are almost all related to western influence & US foreign policy.

Gotta have SOME ONE to blame, right?

Christendom isn't.

- On the contrary, it always is. All in all, the numbers speak amply for West/Christendom deadly hegemony. There is just no getting out of this. But considering historical precedences, they've come a long way into mitigating this deadliness. Or maybe, they just got better at PR. :-)

Heh, PR. I can give you that one as a probability. But... I don't review battle footage of soldiers praising God when they pull the trigger. Food for thought.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2016 5:41:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/25/2016 2:49:25 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Syria is also civil war based, which is why I prefer not consider civil wars.

- You just obsess over the deaths of few thousands & ignore the millions instead, sure. Maybe because of the passports they hold, or the religion they adhere to, I don't know...

Its own population rose up against itself.

- Still counts as man-made deadly event, beside other forms of such events I mentioned in the OP.

First by means of Iraq invading Kuwait, next by harboring the people whom conducted the attack on the towers. What I will grant is the 2nd invasion of Iraq over the WMD (lack there of) situation.

- Blahblahblah... The War on Terror is on the hands of the US & its allies. Or, Christendom. Simple.

See many military officers using human shields on the front? Hiding in churches?

- That's just sensationalism. I see many of them bombing towns, hospitals, civilian areas... & killing a whole lot of them though, which is much worse. This reminds me of the guy who killed a person who was sent to him, & said, I am not responsible for his death, the ones who sent him to me are.

They are civilians biting off more than they can chew, granted, but they are still biting it off with the desire to not wear a uniform, establish operational basis and the like.

- What?!

Perhaps they should try it if they are concerned about deaths of other civilians.

- Perhaps, given it's been established the West doesn't care about civilian deaths.

No, I am suggesting that further attacks by radical Muslims halt so as to stop being on the receiving end of such 'unfair' retribution.

- That's exactly what I am getting at. I mean, you've indeed changed my perspective. You not being some of sort of Christian fundamentalist & still holding such callous & deadly views gives me clear insight onto the mindset of western hegemony. If the IRA or the ETA (Spain) attacked US soil, the US isn't going to invade Ireland or Spain, & you're obviously not going to like that either. But, the Middles East? The hell with it. Just sub-humans whose lives don't matter. This mindset does indeed explain a lot of these atrocities. I mean, how else can one explain WWI or WWII or the Conquest of the Americas...

Terror related organizations want to invade and blow up the Pentagon? Peachy, have at it. Want to sink our destroyers in port? Fantastic, go for it. But you and I both know the military is not the target.

- Irrelevant. Doesn't change the nature of the unfair retribution any whichever way.

This just further demonstrates the disconnect to reality those fine folks have, and how demonstrably untrue that is.

- 'Fine folks' as in you & those who think like you, surely. For instance, If you look at the '2nd Liberian War' or the '2nd Congo War' articles on wikipedia (I mentioned earlier), you won't find one single mention of 'Christianity' or any of its derivatives. If you look at the articles of any civil war of any time for whatever reason happening in the Muslim world, you'll surely see Islam & Muslims mentioned therein, often with a causal connection. That's just the western disposition against Islam & Muslims, which demonstrates a disconnect from reality... I've seen this pattern in Arabic literature too, but on a much lesser degree.

I know I can suggest evidence to my assertion.

- I doubt that. Many drug lords see themselves as protectors of their community & their faiths.

Can you prove that opinion (Christendom is being spread through such violence) is just as plain?

- I am not interested in causal connections between War & Religion, for that is difficult to discern. I am interested in the correlation & congruence between the two. Christendom just happens to be correlated through its members with a lot of wars & deaths. Maybe there is a causal relationship, there likely was pre-1900, maybe there isn't.

Considering the brutality their own dispense upon themselves, I am not terribly concerned as to what the rest of the world thinks of us dropping bombs on people whom cage and burn/behead, teach their kids execution drills.

- With the same mentality, you shouldn't be concerned about terrorists bombing & pillaging whole American towns either. This moment, your mentality displays no lesser brutality than theirs.

Yes. Actions have consequences. Do you honestly expect any nation to sit idly by while further interesting engagement gets planned?

- No. But I don't expect them to go on killing innocent people either. What you're saying is basically, the US is so effing incompetent it invades nations when it couldn't deal with a small gang, which as it happens only perpetrated & spiked terrorism abound the world. This is some cosmic incompetence...

Ironically to prevent the Russians from annexing further parts of the mideast. No good deed, it seems.

- What did I say? Cosmic Incompetence. ;-)

Regarding oil, what do you think the endgame for that was?

- What?

So no actual colonies, then.

- Semantics.

America can't support potential allies in other countries?

- America can do whatever it wants, yet it is responsible for whatever it does. The US backed party in Indonesia (similarly to Iran & other places) killed a great number of people, civilians who were allegedly sympathisers (of communism - or Islamism). & that's just that.

They recognize those outfits, not directly support them, secondly, Hamas and Hezbullah haven't claimed responsibility for much beyond attacks on Israel.

- None of this matters.

What exactly prevents Palestinians from integration?

- Integrating where?

It was Iraq's invasion of a sovereign ally.

- That's beside the point.

Gotta have SOME ONE to blame, right?

- The aggressors & oppressors, for starters. Which isn't hard to figure out. Then again, you have people like you & your governments, who gotta have an entire religion & its adherents to blame, & have no problem razing millions innocent of them in the process. DAMN! GOTTA LOVE THE IRONY! Haha...

Heh, PR. I can give you that one as a probability.

- Just look at what the 2003 Iraq Invasion was named by the US: 'Operation Iraqi Freedom'! It's definitely PR.

But... I don't review battle footage of soldiers praising God when they pull.

- Are you suggesting that those soldiers are bad Christians?! That they don't pray & praise God even in the midst of war?! I don't think so. On the other hand, Allahu Akbar (God is Greater) is one of the most used expressions in the Arab world (by Christians & Jews alike, mind you), like Salamo'alaykom & Masha'Allah & Haldulillah... It is said +250 times in prayers every day, & 4 times in every call to prayer, twice, 5 times a day. It is used for any moment where emotions surge, for excitement, happiness, sadness, anger, shock, surprise, doubt, joy... anything. I mean, some scream it when they're having sex, or when they dip in cold water, or bite spicy food, or get engaged, or hear of the death of a relative...
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...