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Is there one true denomination/sect?

Elihu
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3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/1/2016 12:22:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

No, the message of Jesus was far from any "true" denominations or religious sects, actually He opposed that nonsense in His example. What separates the men from the boys is application, that is the message of Jesus....that we seek and apply our relation to God in spirit, in quality and oneness.

Here is the true Gospel (message of Jesus) and what our relation to it is........we have to abide in the truth, not just believe it or recite it.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
Elihu
Posts: 87
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3/1/2016 12:24:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:22:05 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
we have to abide in the truth, not just believe it or recite it.
I agree. John 2:17 made this clear:
"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself." (ASV)
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/1/2016 12:26:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:24:57 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:22:05 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
we have to abide in the truth, not just believe it or recite it.
I agree. John 2:17 made this clear:
"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself." (ASV)

cool.... :)
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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3/1/2016 1:18:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

I offer this as another consideration on the 144,000 and not as a point of argument. We are all old enough to make up our own mind, and we are all sensible enough to realize that we can look at other opinions without "Going to War" ......Right?

From JW.org
Why do Jehovah"s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world."Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion"that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: "It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter." (The Apocalypse or "The Day of the Lord," page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master"s Seminary in the United States, wrote: "The case for symbolism is exegetically weak." He added: "It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.""Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.

Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about "the thousand years" of Christ"s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows.* (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the "great crowd," also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits." (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a "little flock." (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God."Psalm 37:29.
Elihu
Posts: 87
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3/1/2016 2:37:39 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 1:18:34 AM, Peternosaint wrote:
From JW.org
I am very familiar with the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a publisher?

Why do Jehovah"s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.
I have to disagree with the use of 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22. They read:
"Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (ASV)

Verse 21 tells us that God "establishes" us, or "stabilizes" us. In other words, it is God who has given us all confident hope in Christ; and it is God who gives us grace to adhere to His promises and to maintain a Christian character. "Anointed" takes on a new meaning. The meaning that is given to it in 1 John 2:20, 27, which read:
"And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things."

"And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him." (ASV)

The anointing that was previously associated with prophets, priests, and kings is now used in regard to all Christians under the influence of the holy spirit. We know all Christians are influenced by the holy spirit because of verses such as Acts 10:45, which reads:
"And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit." (ASV)

Verse 22 uses the word "sealed." That word is simply applied to persons, as denoting that they are approved. Use Revelation 7:3 as an example. Ephesians 4:30 tells us the following:
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption." (ASV)

In other words, all Christians are sealed by the holy spirit. This relates to 2 Corinthians 5:5, which reads:
"Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit."

In plain English, the holy spirit's influence on the heart is a pledge of the future glories which await Christians in heaven.

Next, let's examine Revelation 5:9, 10, which read:
"And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth." (ASV)

This is in harmony with 1 Peter 2:9, which reads:
"But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" (ASV)

All Christians are apart of a "royal priesthood." We are made "kings" in the sense that we are exalted in rank and dignity. We, as Christ, will be victorious over our enemies, namely death and sin. The word "priests" refers to the fact that we are engaged in the holy service of God, or that we offer to him acceptable worship.

Finally, we can examine Revelation 20:6, which reads:
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (ASV)

While I have not settled how literal I want to take this text, I currently accept Matthew Poole's commentary, which reads:
"That is, they only are holy ones that shall be thus restored to share in the church's happiness, and such as shall not perish eternally; but they shall be as priests to God and Christ, glorifying him with the spiritual sacrifices of prayer and praise, and shall enjoy a quiet and honourable station with Christ upon the earth for a long time. "

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world."Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.
That is not a logical conclusion . The number of 144,000 is enshrouded in symbolism. To pick it out as literal does not make sense.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/1/2016 4:38:32 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

No, they are all equally as false as Mormonism and JWs.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:24:57 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:22:05 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
we have to abide in the truth, not just believe it or recite it.
I agree. John 2:17 made this clear:
"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself." (ASV)

John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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3/1/2016 10:03:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:24:57 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:22:05 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
we have to abide in the truth, not just believe it or recite it.
I agree. John 2:17 made this clear:
"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself." (ASV)

John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
Do a wee search for the passages that give very different requirements.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Elihu
Posts: 87
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3/1/2016 12:01:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.
Thanks for the correction! Just a typo on my end.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
Right, there are core truths that no one can deny. For example, knowing the Christ's role in salvation is key (as you stated).
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
bulproof
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3/1/2016 12:41:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:01:39 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.
Thanks for the correction! Just a typo on my end.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
Right, there are core truths that no one can deny. For example, knowing the Christ's role in salvation is key (as you stated).

It would seem absolutely obvious that the original denomination (Catholics) are the only true one and all the rest are heretical offshoots.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Elihu
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3/1/2016 8:20:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:41:39 PM, bulproof wrote:
It would seem absolutely obvious that the original denomination (Catholics) are the only true one and all the rest are heretical offshoots.
Who says that they are the "original denomination"?
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/1/2016 8:21:14 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:41:39 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:01:39 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.
Thanks for the correction! Just a typo on my end.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
Right, there are core truths that no one can deny. For example, knowing the Christ's role in salvation is key (as you stated).

It would seem absolutely obvious that the original denomination (Catholics) are the only true one and all the rest are heretical offshoots.

Unless, of course, the Catholics, after time, went wrong, and the offshoots were correct.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
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3/2/2016 2:06:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 8:21:14 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:41:39 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:01:39 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 7:28:50 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
John 2:17 ASV reads:
"17 His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up."
James 2:17 reads what you said.
Thanks for the correction! Just a typo on my end.

Theoretically, if different denominations said different things, then there would have to be only one correct denomination. But I'm not saying that means that the incorrect ones won't go to heaven. There is one simple criteria for going to heaven:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9
Right, there are core truths that no one can deny. For example, knowing the Christ's role in salvation is key (as you stated).

It would seem absolutely obvious that the original denomination (Catholics) are the only true one and all the rest are heretical offshoots.

Unless, of course, the Catholics, after time, went wrong, and the offshoots were correct.
And the first thing the heretics did was call Paul a liar.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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3/2/2016 8:01:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Every one of the myriad christian cults, denominations, sects, schismatics etc, is as true as every other one.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have made it extremely easy to investigate their teachings online, in complete anonymity on http://www'jw.org, or via the links in my signature.

Look for yourself and make up your own mind.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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3/2/2016 2:41:49 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have made it extremely easy to investigate their teachings online, in complete anonymity on http://www'jw.org, or via the links in my signature.

Look for yourself and make up your own mind.
Yeah and look up 1914, 1915, 1918, 1922, 1925 and a myriad other failed prophesies.
You'll laugh your tits off. http://www.jwfacts.com...
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Elihu
Posts: 87
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3/2/2016 8:27:52 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have made it extremely easy to investigate their teachings online, in complete anonymity on http://www'jw.org, or via the links in my signature.

Look for yourself and make up your own mind.
I have read the literature.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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3/2/2016 11:02:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 2:37:39 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 1:18:34 AM, Peternosaint wrote:
From JW.org
I am very familiar with the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a publisher?

ME:After a lot of years (60) toing and froming I have started back once more. There is a post called My JW Experience.

Why do Jehovah"s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.
I have to disagree with the use of 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22. They read:
"Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (ASV)

Verse 21 tells us that God "establishes" us, or "stabilizes" us. In other words, it is God who has given us all confident hope in Christ; and it is God who gives us grace to adhere to His promises and to maintain a Christian character. "Anointed" takes on a new meaning. The meaning that is given to it in 1 John 2:20, 27, which read:
"And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things."

"And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him." (ASV)

The anointing that was previously associated with prophets, priests, and kings is now used in regard to all Christians under the influence of the holy spirit. We know all Christians are influenced by the holy spirit because of verses such as Acts 10:45, which reads:
"And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit." (ASV)

Verse 22 uses the word "sealed." That word is simply applied to persons, as denoting that they are approved. Use Revelation 7:3 as an example. Ephesians 4:30 tells us the following:
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption." (ASV)

In other words, all Christians are sealed by the holy spirit. This relates to 2 Corinthians 5:5, which reads:
"Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit."

In plain English, the holy spirit's influence on the heart is a pledge of the future glories which await Christians in heaven.

Next, let's examine Revelation 5:9, 10, which read:
"And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth." (ASV)

This is in harmony with 1 Peter 2:9, which reads:
"But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" (ASV)

All Christians are apart of a "royal priesthood." We are made "kings" in the sense that we are exalted in rank and dignity. We, as Christ, will be victorious over our enemies, namely death and sin. The word "priests" refers to the fact that we are engaged in the holy service of God, or that we offer to him acceptable worship.

Finally, we can examine Revelation 20:6, which reads:
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (ASV)

While I have not settled how literal I want to take this text, I currently accept Matthew Poole's commentary, which reads:
"That is, they only are holy ones that shall be thus restored to share in the church's happiness, and such as shall not perish eternally; but they shall be as priests to God and Christ, glorifying him with the spiritual sacrifices of prayer and praise, and shall enjoy a quiet and honourable station with Christ upon the earth for a long time. "

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world."Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.
That is not a logical conclusion . The number of 144,000 is enshrouded in symbolism. To pick it out as literal does not make sense.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/2/2016 11:38:27 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:02:05 PM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 3/1/2016 2:37:39 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/1/2016 1:18:34 AM, Peternosaint wrote:
From JW.org
I am very familiar with the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a publisher?

ME:After a lot of years (60) toing and froming I have started back once more. There is a post called My JW Experience.

That's good to hear, stick to the true path to life Matthew 7:13-14. You will never regret it for all eternity.

It's never too late to be like the prodigal son, and always remember what Christ said "There will be ore joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous men who have no need of repentance".

May Jehovah always be with you in your efforts.
MadCornishBiker
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3/2/2016 11:39:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 8:27:52 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have made it extremely easy to investigate their teachings online, in complete anonymity on http://www'jw.org, or via the links in my signature.

Look for yourself and make up your own mind.
I have read the literature.

But have you studied and compared it to scripture?

Scripture is always the litmus test of truth.
MadCornishBiker
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3/2/2016 11:40:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 8:27:52 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have made it extremely easy to investigate their teachings online, in complete anonymity on http://www'jw.org, or via the links in my signature.

Look for yourself and make up your own mind.
I have read the literature.

P. S.

See also Acts 17:10-11, and be a Beroean.
Elihu
Posts: 87
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3/3/2016 1:42:53 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:39:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
But have you studied and compared it to scripture?
Yes, of course I have. The literature usually includes the scriptural references.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
MadCornishBiker
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3/3/2016 2:36:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 1:42:53 AM, Elihu wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:39:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
But have you studied and compared it to scripture?
Yes, of course I have. The literature usually includes the scriptural references.

No, their literature always includes appropriate scripture references or quotations, but that does not mean you bothered to check them out. not everyone does.

If you have, then that is fair enough.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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3/3/2016 5:55:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

See above for example of the MadClown once again introducing the BotchTower of Brooklyn and the JW's into a discussion. And if anyone takes exception to it, why, they're just "prejudiced". LMAO. Of course, that all depends on how the BotchTower defines "prejudice". Who knows? They make up new definitions as they shuffle along.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,582
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3/3/2016 7:20:27 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 5:55:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

See above for example of the MadClown once again introducing the BotchTower of Brooklyn and the JW's into a discussion. And if anyone takes exception to it, why, they're just "prejudiced". LMAO. Of course, that all depends on how the BotchTower defines "prejudice". Who knows? They make up new definitions as they shuffle along.

Just can't shake the obsession, eh Anna?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/3/2016 9:13:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 5:55:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

See above for example of the MadClown once again introducing the BotchTower of Brooklyn and the JW's into a discussion. And if anyone takes exception to it, why, they're just "prejudiced". LMAO. Of course, that all depends on how the BotchTower defines "prejudice". Who knows? They make up new definitions as they shuffle along.

This thread is about the one true denomination/sect, and that is the WTBTS, so what else can I say?

I can only speak truth, unlike you who uses lies wherever you wish.

We all know you are prejudiced Anna, by anyone's definition of the word.

No Anna they do not make new definitions, not in the least.This generation is precisely what Christ said it would be, even if we are at present only able to speculate as to which generation he actually meant.

After all, whilst it is true that the last of the signs started around 1914, Jesus did not say the generation that sees the start of the signs.

Who knows at what point he or his father will decide that they should have been noticed and acted on?

You sure don't, and nor do I.

The definition of generation remains the same, as does the designation of which generation. If anyone invents new definitions for it, it is you.

Because the JWs stick to what scripture tells us, as far as they understand it at any one time, they are indeed the one true faith.

You have to remember that since there is only one truth, there can only be one true faith, or none of course.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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3/3/2016 11:38:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 9:13:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/3/2016 5:55:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/2/2016 1:42:42 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2016 12:09:32 AM, Elihu wrote:
Is there one true denomination/sect of Christianity? If you answer with "yes," please enlighten everyone of what that sect/denomination is and what scriptural proof you have. If your answer is "no," please also give scriptural support.

It is my position that there is not one true denomination/sect. Though I could take a less elaborate route, I will use Revelation 7:4-8 to verify my position, which read:
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (ASV)

This is quite obviously not a literal text, as the whole scene is symbolic (the winds, the angels, the sealing). As well, the number is too exact and artificial to be taken literal. We know the text is not referring to the sealed and saved among the Jews, because long before the time of John all of the distinctions of the tribes were abolished. The division of tribes symbolizes the division of the church into different sects/denominations. Each "tribe" have righteous people in it, and one is not shown favor over another, hence the 12,000 out of each.

Yes there is, and if you investigate them you will find it it Jehovah's Witnesses.

See above for example of the MadClown once again introducing the BotchTower of Brooklyn and the JW's into a discussion. And if anyone takes exception to it, why, they're just "prejudiced". LMAO. Of course, that all depends on how the BotchTower defines "prejudice". Who knows? They make up new definitions as they shuffle along.

This thread is about the one true denomination/sect, and that is the WTBTS, so what else can I say?

I can only speak truth, unlike you who uses lies wherever you wish.

Well, since the church founded by Christ was neither a denomination nor a sect, yet YOU claim the BotchTower is a denomination or sect, I guess the two aren't the same. I coulda told you that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."