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Engaging with people on this forum

tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/1/2016 9:31:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Debates on religious validity are largely pointless Tej, because debates appeal to evidence, reason and accountability, and assent to religious belief can entail an explicit commitment toward narrow accounts of all three. The frustration in trying to have arbitrary views rationally accepted, or having irrational methods examined rationally can lead to animosity and contempt, though not in all members and not all the time.

Yet religion isn't the only topic for which this is true. Many identity issues can suffer in this way (political, gender and national identities being common examples), and religion is recognised sociologically as a category of identity in itself.

So recognising that debate forums attract zealots and make religious validity near-pointless to discuss, that leaves a range of supporting or side questions, like history, morality, or religion and society, or methods of presenting arguments themselves. But then you need to frame the scope to avoid those matters that trigger identity issues: not always easy, since it varies from member to member, and zealots tend to invest a lot of identity in ideology in the first place.

But my point here is: telling members to behave better is unlikely to work, since they already know what good behaviour is, and have abandoned it for partisan and self-interested reasons. The forum needs visible, active, committed moderation toward respectful, constructive, accountable dialogue. This has worked in religious discussion forums on other sites, and anything less is unlikely to be effective.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,956
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3/1/2016 9:38:58 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

My dear friend. if you say that the bible states that abortion is murder, I will prove from scripture that it is not considered as murder. Should I prostitute my belief, in order to not offend the one who made the erroneous and false statement?
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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3/1/2016 9:39:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:38:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

My dear friend. if you say that the bible states that abortion is murder, I will prove from scripture that it is not considered as murder. Should I prostitute my belief, in order to not offend the one who made the erroneous and false statement?

Of course you should point that out - that's what happens in all forums. What does not happen in any forum except the Religion one is insulting the person in the process.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Gentorev
Posts: 2,956
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3/1/2016 9:50:43 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:39:48 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:38:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

My dear friend. if you say that the bible states that abortion is murder, I will prove from scripture that it is not considered as murder. Should I prostitute my belief, in order to not offend the one who made the erroneous and false statement?

Of course you should point that out - that's what happens in all forums. What does not happen in any forum except the Religion one is insulting the person in the process.

Obviously you have not been on many forums and especially the political and Atheist forums.
rnjs
Posts: 381
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3/1/2016 3:02:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut others claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

I have been on other debating forums that are moderated, and have rules against personal attacks and have seen people kicked off for their insults and other non constructive comments, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. One needs thick skin to be involved here and ignore the trolls whose only contribution is no contribution.
As far as convincing anyone of anything, most people aren't looking for answers, as you have probably seen by some of the irrelevant or near irrelevant comments .Most secular people have not truly been Christians, so they can't see that viewpoint whereas all true Christians have been unbelievers at some point, so are familiar with both sides. One can hope that a casual observer, maybe one who is not active may come to their own conclusions based on something that has been said.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/1/2016 3:18:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

You have my sympathy.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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3/1/2016 3:22:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Everyone is right in this forum 100%. The word beliefs comes in to play .and that turns into believings. But you can get a little back and forth , you make 1 comment then 1 more 4 hours later , and just pop up. Like a fair weather friend.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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3/1/2016 3:43:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 3:02:23 PM, rnjs wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut others claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

I have been on other debating forums that are moderated, and have rules against personal attacks and have seen people kicked off for their insults and other non constructive comments, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. One needs thick skin to be involved here and ignore the trolls whose only contribution is no contribution.
As far as convincing anyone of anything, most people aren't looking for answers, as you have probably seen by some of the irrelevant or near irrelevant comments .Most secular people have not truly been Christians, so they can't see that viewpoint whereas all true Christians have been unbelievers at some point, so are familiar with both sides. One can hope that a casual observer, maybe one who is not active may come to their own conclusions based on something that has been said.
The people who always want the mods to come in and protect their pathetic souls are the same ones who wouldn't defend themselves in the playground.
It's why they need a god to defend them from their god who wants desperately to send them to hell.
They ask the bigger bully to save them from the bully giving them grief instead of just fixing up the bully yourself. If it doesn't happen the first time use some nounce and make it work the next, or the next, or the next. Victims of bullies like your gods deserve all the hate you get from it.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/1/2016 4:06:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 3:02:23 PM, rnjs wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut others claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

I have been on other debating forums that are moderated, and have rules against personal attacks and have seen people kicked off for their insults and other non constructive comments, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. One needs thick skin to be involved here and ignore the trolls whose only contribution is no contribution.
As far as convincing anyone of anything, most people aren't looking for answers, as you have probably seen by some of the irrelevant or near irrelevant comments .Most secular people have not truly been Christians, so they can't see that viewpoint whereas all true Christians have been unbelievers at some point, so are familiar with both sides.

You have it backward, amigo. You're indulging in both the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy and projecting your own issues onto others. You're being dishonest and demonstrating why some people here react in a less than respectful fashion.

One can hope that a casual observer, maybe one who is not active may come to their own conclusions based on something that has been said.

That is indeed the hope, that logic and reason will win the day over superstition and prejudice.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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3/1/2016 4:20:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:39:48 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:38:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction. People in this forum have non-flexible beliefs that they aren't willing to change, yet seek to convert people with an extremely strong vigor. It gets extremely irritating.

Please (1) keep an open mind about your beliefs, or don't bother to try to rebut other's claims while failing to defend your own, and (2) be civil; civility is important in any online forum, and it's easy to be civil while discussing even the most controversial of topics.

My dear friend. if you say that the bible states that abortion is murder, I will prove from scripture that it is not considered as murder. Should I prostitute my belief, in order to not offend the one who made the erroneous and false statement?

Of course you should point that out - that's what happens in all forums. What does not happen in any forum except the Religion one is insulting the person in the process.

It often seems that way, and in fact in many debates it is true that people insult each other. However many people own their beliefs, so an insult on the idea is perceive an insult of the person. A person does not need to own beliefs of any kind to establish scientific facts, observe and enjoy nature, or live a productive, moral, and useful life.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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3/1/2016 4:29:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:31:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
The forum needs visible, active, committed moderation toward respectful, constructive, accountable dialogue. This has worked in religious discussion forums on other sites, and anything less is unlikely to be effective.

This has been argued for time and again, with the end result being that those who can make such changes, that have worked very well in other forums, refuse to do so in favor of their own ideas, which they refer to as "Forum Reform". The illustrious elected, powerless President is the result of their ideas. Tej knows only too well the failure of those ideas.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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3/1/2016 5:16:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:12:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
It seems impossible to engage with people - atheist or theist - on this forum.

That's a generalization. There are atheists and theists in this forum who are open to discussion. It may not be a large percentage, but they exist. ;-)

Every response/rebuttal I give in the same civil manner used in, for instance, the Society forum, is responded to with either (a) personal attacks or ad hominem about the sources I use, or (b) responses with unjustified yet utter conviction.

I am extremely sympathetic -it does get irritating. After visiting some other forums, I am convinced moderation is severely lacking here. If something is not done, the inmates will completely take over this asylum.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/1/2016 5:51:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:29:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:31:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
The forum needs visible, active, committed moderation toward respectful, constructive, accountable dialogue. This has worked in religious discussion forums on other sites, and anything less is unlikely to be effective.
This has been argued for time and again, with the end result being that those who can make such changes, that have worked very well in other forums, refuse to do so in favor of their own ideas, which they refer to as "Forum Reform". The illustrious elected, powerless President is the result of their ideas. Tej knows only too well the failure of those ideas.

I'm aware and concur, DjR. The presidency is a sham, and a vanity-magnet that actually damages site trust. There is more than enough commitment among members of good will of multiple beliefs to run a good forum with volunteer moderation. The root cause of the problem resides entirely with the site ownership and its lazy, naive, idealistic and largely ineffective governance arrangements.