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Jesus Christ is God According to the Bible

logicinlife
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3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/5/2016 11:39:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
People can also live in fishes and snakes can talk....

The "fish" vs. whale in Jonah is debatable, but...

Sunday, November 22, page 16, The Mercury of South Yarmouth, England, in October 1891, "A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive."

You were saying?

As for the "talking snake", presupposing the existence of beings outside of our materialistic world, or this plane, that can influence this world/plane, opens up the chances of this as a possibility. Not to mention that this is debatable in some ways such as being metaphor to the "dragon" in revelations which represents the same being, but arguably, in full "form" or strength.

So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:39:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
People can also live in fishes and snakes can talk....

The "fish" vs. whale in Jonah is debatable, but...

Sunday, November 22, page 16, The Mercury of South Yarmouth, England, in October 1891, "A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive."

You were saying?

As for the "talking snake", presupposing the existence of beings outside of our materialistic world, or this plane, that can influence this world/plane, opens up the chances of this as a possibility. Not to mention that this is debatable in some ways such as being metaphor to the "dragon" in revelations which represents the same being, but arguably, in full "form" or strength.

So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?

If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/6/2016 12:28:03 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:39:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
People can also live in fishes and snakes can talk....

The "fish" vs. whale in Jonah is debatable, but...

Sunday, November 22, page 16, The Mercury of South Yarmouth, England, in October 1891, "A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive."

You were saying?

As for the "talking snake", presupposing the existence of beings outside of our materialistic world, or this plane, that can influence this world/plane, opens up the chances of this as a possibility. Not to mention that this is debatable in some ways such as being metaphor to the "dragon" in revelations which represents the same being, but arguably, in full "form" or strength.

So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?

If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.

Eh, I don't have the time, energy, or attention span to play with ya'll today.
Take it as you wish.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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3/6/2016 1:26:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM, logicinlife wrote:
So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?

Great post, even if it did wander from the topic.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
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3/6/2016 1:29:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/5/2016 11:12:41 PM, logicinlife wrote:
Needs some votes!

http://www.debate.org...

Those debates . . . well . . . I just don't get it. To answer your question, simply and briefly, Jesus was a god like Moses, the Judges of Israel, Tammuz, Satan, Molech, Baal, Dagon, Jehovah, Ashtoreth . . .

Jesus and Jehovah are not the same. So Jesus wasn't what the early Christians would call God, as in The God.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
logicinlife
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3/6/2016 2:10:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 1:29:16 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:12:41 PM, logicinlife wrote:
Needs some votes!

http://www.debate.org...

Those debates . . . well . . . I just don't get it. To answer your question, simply and briefly, Jesus was a god like Moses, the Judges of Israel, Tammuz, Satan, Molech, Baal, Dagon, Jehovah, Ashtoreth . . .

Jesus and Jehovah are not the same. So Jesus wasn't what the early Christians would call God, as in The God.

It wasn't a question. So are you merely imploring that Jesus was a god, but not God, which means that you're merely partaking in an heresy formed from Arians and laid down firmly by Arius. The early church made creeds to combat these positions quite clearly.

This means you must be a Jehovah's Witness. Am I correct? There are no new heresy. What translation do you adhere to? If it is Indeed the NWT, the Tanakh's quotations placed in Hebrews 1 and John 12 are still presented accurately, which are two of the examples I use in the debate.

To say that Jesus is god, but not the one true God, in accordance with the Tanakh's strict forbiddance of recognizing any God other than himself, means that Jesus is a false god as there is only one true God. Moses was never claimed to be "a god", and all other Gods are equated to demons, thus you're implying that Jesus is a demon.

As I said, it wasn't a question.
DavidHenson
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3/6/2016 2:23:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:10:16 AM, logicinlife wrote:
It wasn't a question. So are you merely imploring that Jesus was a god, but not God, which means that you're merely partaking in an heresy formed from Arians and laid down firmly by Arius. The early church made creeds to combat these positions quite clearly.

Arius believed that God is beyond comprehension. Neither I nor the JW's would agree. He, or they, the Arians, also believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of the same essence as God and the Son. The JW's and I disagree.

This means you must be a Jehovah's Witness. Am I correct?

No. My beliefs are quite similar in most regards, though.

There are no new heresy. What translation do you adhere to? If it is Indeed the NWT, the Tanakh's quotations placed in Hebrews 1 and John 12 are still presented accurately, which are two of the examples I use in the debate.

I haven't had time to look at the debate yet. I'm not able to vote, so I doubt that I will.

To say that Jesus is god, but not the one true God, in accordance with the Tanakh's strict forbiddance of recognizing any God other than himself, means that Jesus is a false god as there is only one true God. Moses was never claimed to be "a god", and all other Gods are equated to demons, thus you're implying that Jesus is a demon.

That isn't correct.

As I said, it wasn't a question.

Okay. It was an incorrect subject heading. I responded to it.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
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3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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3/6/2016 2:42:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 12:28:03 AM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:39:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
People can also live in fishes and snakes can talk....

The "fish" vs. whale in Jonah is debatable, but...

Sunday, November 22, page 16, The Mercury of South Yarmouth, England, in October 1891, "A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive."

You were saying?

As for the "talking snake", presupposing the existence of beings outside of our materialistic world, or this plane, that can influence this world/plane, opens up the chances of this as a possibility. Not to mention that this is debatable in some ways such as being metaphor to the "dragon" in revelations which represents the same being, but arguably, in full "form" or strength.

So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?

If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.

Eh, I don't have the time, energy, or attention span to play with ya'll today.
Take it as you wish.
So are you a sockpuppet or a reincarnation?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/6/2016 2:47:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:23:45 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:10:16 AM, logicinlife wrote:
It wasn't a question. So are you merely imploring that Jesus was a god, but not God, which means that you're merely partaking in an heresy formed from Arians and laid down firmly by Arius. The early church made creeds to combat these positions quite clearly.

Arius believed that God is beyond comprehension. Neither I nor the JW's would agree. He, or they, the Arians, also believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of the same essence as God and the Son. The JW's and I disagree.


Sigh, why did you even bother responding? JW's foundations lay within the Arian controversy with a hint of Gnosticism. Arius's teachings, are not in dispute, meaning at this point they are pretty clear and are summarized as follows; (1) The Son and the Father do not have the same essence (ousia). (2) The Son is a created being (ktisma or poiema), even though he is to be recognized as the first and foremost among them, in terms of origination and rank. (3) Although the Son was the creator of the worlds and therefore must have existed before them and before all time, there was nevertheless a "time" when the Son did not exist.

The most fundamental Arian belief was that Christ wasn't divine in any meaningful sense of the word. His argument is reminiscent of JWs except that Arius concluded that Jesus Christ cannot redeem humanity, which the JW's hold to their "ransom atonement", which is a fraction of the work of Christ.

Arius made his subordinationism clear in his debates with people such as Athanasius. He stated, "Before he (Christ) was begotten or created or appointed or established, he did not exist; for he was not begotten."

Anyway, I'd encourage you to fact check, because quite frankly I feel like I'm wasting time now.

This means you must be a Jehovah's Witness. Am I correct?

No. My beliefs are quite similar in most regards, though.


So you, by definition, you are not Christian.

There are no new heresy. What translation do you adhere to? If it is Indeed the NWT, the Tanakh's quotations placed in Hebrews 1 and John 12 are still presented accurately, which are two of the examples I use in the debate.

I haven't had time to look at the debate yet. I'm not able to vote, so I doubt that I will.

For your own sake of looking and understanding the evidence, you may, because at this point if you adhere to JW's views (though you said you're not one, I know), you have a high chance of having a false gospel. Just looked at your profile, if you are saved, awesome, but your views by definition are heretical.

I was an anti-theist/atheist as well. So I relate there.

At least view round two of the debate. You never answered the question, what translation do you use? I ask simply because nearly EVERY Jehovah's Witness I encounter agrees with me when I say to them, "if you examined your bible, with objective lenses, you would never come to the conclusions that you claim are your beliefs now." Like I said, they always agree, but move on and continue on. Probably because of disfellowship, I suppose.

To say that Jesus is god, but not the one true God, in accordance with the Tanakh's strict forbiddance of recognizing any God other than himself, means that Jesus is a false god as there is only one true God. Moses was never claimed to be "a god", and all other Gods are equated to demons, thus you're implying that Jesus is a demon.

That isn't correct.

According to the bible's understanding of gods, yes it is. According to Yahweh's declaration that "I am One God", yes it is. These are basics. Either Jesus is a true god or a false god, and there is only One true God. Not to mention the Messianic Prophecies, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6).

If you want to debate, lets debate.

This forum was in hopes of getting some votes on a debate that is going on right now so it doesn't just end up in a draw.
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/6/2016 2:49:21 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:42:25 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/6/2016 12:28:03 AM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:49:22 PM, logicinlife wrote:
At 3/5/2016 11:39:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
People can also live in fishes and snakes can talk....

The "fish" vs. whale in Jonah is debatable, but...

Sunday, November 22, page 16, The Mercury of South Yarmouth, England, in October 1891, "A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive."

You were saying?

As for the "talking snake", presupposing the existence of beings outside of our materialistic world, or this plane, that can influence this world/plane, opens up the chances of this as a possibility. Not to mention that this is debatable in some ways such as being metaphor to the "dragon" in revelations which represents the same being, but arguably, in full "form" or strength.

So...... Anyway. Stick to the thread, yea?

If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.

Eh, I don't have the time, energy, or attention span to play with ya'll today.
Take it as you wish.
So are you a sockpuppet or a reincarnation?

I would say I'm more of a sake of wine.
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament. The years between original and the earliest surviving copies are 40-70 years. The runner up is Homer's Iliad with a whopping 643 copies and 500 years in-between the originals. What about Aristotles works? Only 49 copies in existences with 1400 years between original and earliest surviving copies. The list goes on and on, but heres a good one, Plato's works? 7 copies, with 1200 years. Yet the validity is confirmed on these authors? The validity is confirmed on these? Really?

There are NO serious and well credited historians who doubt the existence of Jesus. Aside from the miracles and religious tones, the New Testament is easily confirmed as reliable to be accounts of his existence. From a legal and a criminal investigatory perspective, the synoptic gospels are exactly what we would expect from eye witness accounts.

1. The Gospels are good historical sources. Aside from any doctrines of inspiration or infallibility, the Gospels are very good historical sources. It is not enough to just dismiss them based on religious reasons. Compared to other first century texts, they are very reliable.
2. Paul believed in a historical Jesus. People make a big deal about Paul not mentioning a historical Jesus in his letters. That is simply not true. It is correct that Paul"s emphasis is on the resurrected Christ, but he recounts events and cites sayings of the historical Jesus.
3. We have records of Jesus" brother. James, the half-brother of Jesus, is mentioned numerous times in the New Testament and other early church writings. It is difficult to imagine how someone could have a myth as a brother.
4. Josephus testifies to the existence of Jesus. It is true that some early Christian did exaggerate Josephus" testimony about Jesus, but scholars are able to reconstruct with a high degree of confidence what the original statement was. Josephus did say something about Jesus.
5. The early church unanimously accepted Jesus as historical. Even Origen, who was overly fond of allegory, accepted that the Gospels were based on a real historical figure named Jesus.
6. A historical Jesus is the best explanation for the origin of the church. How could the church begin without a historical Jesus? It is one thing to say that Jesus was only a legend, it is another to account for how that legend could lead to the Christian church.
7. A plain reading of the New Testament points to a historical Jesus. If one sat down and read the New Testament, one would naturally read it as being about a historical figure. Unless one began with the assumption that it was legendary, one would never see that in the text.
8. The mythicist explanation lacks credibility. If Jesus was not historical, the other explanation is that he was based on other myths. However, an examination of the other "parallels" reveals that they have almost nothing in common with Jesus. Jesus mythicists reword pagan myths in Christian terms and hope that people will not read the myths themselves. There is no real parallel among the pagan myths to Jesus.
9. Rejecting a historical Jesus would mean rejecting most ancient historical figures. If one took the same historical standards used my mythicists to other ancient historical figures, almost all of them would have to be rejected. The standards held up by some critics are just not realistic and they are not the standards used by historians. The mythicist position is based on faulty historiography.
10. The vast majority of scholars accept the historical Jesus. I"m not talking about just evangelical scholars. Almost all New Testament scholars accept that Jesus existed without question. In addition, scholars of religion, history and just about every other field accept Jesus as real. Truth is not determined by vote, but sometimes there is a consensus for a reason.
R32;
(3). Support your first claim?
DavidHenson
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3/6/2016 5:38:18 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM, bulproof wrote:
If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.

I'm sort of surprised no one looked it up and posted. I thought it was so interesting I had to look it up, and, as it turns out, it was a fictional sea tale. But a good one.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Composer
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3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '

See how you go say in Judge Judy's Court with hearsay = what others verbally reported at any time let alone (you admit 4 - 7) decades later!

Jesus is an unknown historical figure. It is possible that he may have lived, since millions of people have lived without leaving a trace. It is not enough to declare 'We know nothing about Jesus, except that he existed'. On the contrary, we must boldly assert that 'We do not know anything about him, not even whether he existed'. In historical research, only the strictest accuracy permits us to say anything more. However, the very document which would positively prove the existence of Jesus is missing...Jesus belongs to history thanks to his name and the cult built around him, but he is not a historical figure. He is a divine being, whose knowledge was slowly developed by Christian minds. He was begotten in faith, in hope and in love. He was shaped by emotional fervor. He has been given changing figures by various forms of worship. He was born the moment he got his first believer... His only reality is spiritual. Everything else is phantasmagoria. -- "L'"nigme de J"sus", In Mercure de France, (March 1, 1923), pp. 377, and 398-399. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...)

&

In the final analysis there is no evidence that the biblical character called "Jesus Christ" ever existed. As Nicholas Carter concludes in The Christ Myth: "No sculptures, no drawings, no markings in stone, nothing written in his own hand; and no letters, no commentaries, indeed no authentic documents written by his Jewish and Gentile contemporaries, Justice of Tiberius, Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Petronius Arbiter, Pliny the Elder, et al., to lend credence to his historicity." (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

&

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts. (Source: http://nobeliefs.com...)
logicinlife
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3/6/2016 6:51:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 5:38:18 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/6/2016 12:02:47 AM, bulproof wrote:
If it was in a newspaper it must be true? My wife claims I'm a cynic, I don't see it.

I'm sort of surprised no one looked it up and posted. I thought it was so interesting I had to look it up, and, as it turns out, it was a fictional sea tale. But a good one.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The authenticity is questionable, it hasn't been proven one way or another, you raise a good point, though, I was lazy in that I used it.

Nice skip over the last reply of mine to you, though...
logicinlife
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3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. Your fad, this fad, of trying to say Jesus as a historical myth is new and absurd. To say that Jesus didn't exist with the evidence we have is like saying Cesar didn't exist. It is not "at best hearsay" and this alone shows you clearly haven't conducted any viable research on the topic.

See how you go say in Judge Judy's Court with hearsay = what others verbally reported at any time let alone (you admit 4 - 7) decades later!

Yet you believe Aristotle and Plato existed?

Jesus is an unknown historical figure. It is possible that he may have lived, since millions of people have lived without leaving a trace. It is not enough to declare 'We know nothing about Jesus, except that he existed'. On the contrary, we must boldly assert that 'We do not know anything about him, not even whether he existed'. In historical research, only the strictest accuracy permits us to say anything more. However, the very document which would positively prove the existence of Jesus is missing...Jesus belongs to history thanks to his name and the cult built around him, but he is not a historical figure. He is a divine being, whose knowledge was slowly developed by Christian minds. He was begotten in faith, in hope and in love. He was shaped by emotional fervor. He has been given changing figures by various forms of worship. He was born the moment he got his first believer... His only reality is spiritual. Everything else is phantasmagoria. -- "L'"nigme de J"sus", In Mercure de France, (March 1, 1923), pp. 377, and 398-399. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...)


Please refrain from acting like you know anything about historical research, because you're discourses here make that abundantly clear. Your Wiki analysis and "expertise" are packed in your presuppositional biases. We have genealogies, records of family members, 12 different authors who lived with him for AT LEAST 4 years, we have viable eye witness accounts. IF you knew anything about historical research you would know that many accounts of figures, including Cesar himself, had some mystical or miraculous tales about them, but in historical analysis that is put aside, therefore, in the objective analysis of the gospels, which are written by different men, you would be foolish to say Jesus didn't exist as there is more historical evidence for that existence than for anyone ELSE in his time. Cesar lived from 100-44 BC and the earliest manuscript copy of his writings dates back to 900 AD, putting our best evidence of Caesar ever existing 1,000 years after his death. And there are 10 copies of ancient manuscripts of Caesar"s Gallic Wars. So if you question the Bible based on when it was written, being "translated so many times" (it was not " we still have the same Greek manuscripts today) and still question whether Jesus existed, then you must also be really sure that Julius Caesar and Plato were completely fictional characters and never really existed.

There are no scholars until the 4th century who doubted the existence of a man named Jesus. IF you don't want to believe his claims, than fine, but please, be intellectually honest enough to understand that half of our understanding of historical figures would disappear if you held them to the same standard you're holding Jesus. Period.

&

In the final analysis there is no evidence that the biblical character called "Jesus Christ" ever existed. As Nicholas Carter concludes in The Christ Myth: "No sculptures, no drawings, no markings in stone, nothing written in his own hand; and no letters, no commentaries, indeed no authentic documents written by his Jewish and Gentile contemporaries, Justice of Tiberius, Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Petronius Arbiter, Pliny the Elder, et al., to lend credence to his historicity." (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

Whoever Nicholas Carter is, he is simply wrong, no letters? The New Testament consists of letters, and testimonies, and all of the authors he mentions and their mention of the historic Christ have been PROVEN over and over to be credible.

Here is an idea, take a course in identifying viable sources. ;)

And damn, dude, you straight up copied and pasted, are you a "free-thinker" or a drone?

Not only that, but your source is outdated, what is Ironic is that the critics used to say, "Pilate doesn't exist, therefore Jesus doesn't exist", then we found evidence for Pilates' existence. Same happened with Caiaphas, and more so than that in the historical reliability of the Tanakh as well.

The problem is, ya'll are so ready to attempt to jump the gun, that the analysis is never objective.

Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, had association with Jesus' half brother James and even Bart Ehrman (who is obnoxious if you ask me) is aware that it would be silly for James to make up a brother. "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed," he says.

The gospel of Mark itself is great evidence, because if Christ was merely a myth, do you really think that the author would make an "apology of the crucifixion of Christ"? Do you think that the the record of the Messiah's death would be honestly recorded? How about the embarrassing things the disciples did themselves? The Messiah was seen, in second temple Judaism, as a king who would overthrow the country, do you really think JEWISH -second temple observers - would make their messiah a poor man who died on the cross? Do you think that these observers would risk being killed for blasphemy for a myth? Correction, do you think these writers would actually DIE for a myth? Do you think this myth would warrant the most influential religion in the world? The largest, followed now by Islam which begins with the Tanakh and the life of Jesus.

There ARE archeological finds also, not just logical and widely accepted historical finds.

I'm too lazy to cite the peer reviewed journals in APA. Like I told another guy here, if you want to debate, lets debate, but this forum is simply to get some votes on an debate.

PR/Journal- http://ezproxy.ccu.edu...

PR/Journal - http://ezproxy.ccu.edu...

PF/Journal - http://ezproxy.ccu.edu...

Just a website - https://www.probe.org...
DavidHenson
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3/7/2016 1:59:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:47:59 AM, logicinlife wrote:
If you want to debate, lets debate.

Debate that Jesus isn't the same as Jehovah? Jesus isn't God?

i don't care for formal debates and I try to avoid debating the Trinity. Don't want to go there its a waste of time.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
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3/7/2016 2:22:22 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 6:51:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
Nice skip over the last reply of mine to you, though...

I think I missed the post you are talking about, but have since responded to it. I can't get them all, and am doing my best.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/7/2016 3:18:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


At 3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. . . . .
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. (Source: http://atheisttoolbox.com...)

&

jebus & apostles NEVER literally existed (Source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...)
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/7/2016 11:05:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 1:59:49 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:47:59 AM, logicinlife wrote:
If you want to debate, lets debate.

Debate that Jesus isn't the same as Jehovah? Jesus isn't God?

i don't care for formal debates and I try to avoid debating the Trinity. Don't want to go there its a waste of time.

It wouldn't be a debate on the trinity, but instead the divinity of Jesus. The bible makes it pretty clear, but alas my free time is about run up for debates so we'd have to catch each other in about a month.
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/7/2016 11:05:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:18:24 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


At 3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. . . . .
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. (Source: http://atheisttoolbox.com...)

&

jebus & apostles NEVER literally existed (Source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...)

SMH. Impossible. These are the credible historians everyone!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/8/2016 1:53:19 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:18:24 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


At 3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. . . . .
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. (Source: http://atheisttoolbox.com...)

&

jebus & apostles NEVER literally existed (Source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...)

At 3/7/2016 11:05:59 PM, logicinlife wrote:
SMH. Impossible. These are the credible historians everyone!
That's your problem!

They are basing their conclusions on 100% hearsay regarding Historical MYTHS!
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/8/2016 2:34:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 1:53:19 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:18:24 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


At 3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. . . . .
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. (Source: http://atheisttoolbox.com...)

&

jebus & apostles NEVER literally existed (Source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...)

At 3/7/2016 11:05:59 PM, logicinlife wrote:
SMH. Impossible. These are the credible historians everyone!
That's your problem!

They are basing their conclusions on 100% hearsay regarding Historical MYTHS!

Except no credible historian agrees with you or your bias links. Agnostic, atheist, and Christian historians make it simple; he existed, period.
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/8/2016 2:38:55 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 1:53:19 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:18:24 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 5:52:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:29:39 AM, Composer wrote:
ALL acclaimed Supernatural God(s) are 100% human devised = MYTHICAL !

Likewise the biblical jebus is also a 100% Historical MYTH!

So in that respect they are equal MYTHS!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(1) You made a claim. Care to back it up?
Sure!

At 3/6/2016 2:58:04 AM, logicinlife wrote:
(2) There are over 24,000 existing manuscripts of the New Testament.
24,000 human devised manuscripts based upon at best ' hearsay! '


At 3/6/2016 7:42:07 PM, logicinlife wrote:
This is false. Evidence of the manuscripts are exactly what we would expect from eye-witness accounts. . . . .
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. (Source: http://atheisttoolbox.com...)

&

jebus & apostles NEVER literally existed (Source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...)

At 3/7/2016 11:05:59 PM, logicinlife wrote:
SMH. Impossible. These are the credible historians everyone!
That's your problem!

They are basing their conclusions on 100% hearsay regarding Historical MYTHS!

I love when atheists try to interpret scripture for those who STUDY it and when they find random links on the internet and say, "Its true!".

Its cute because I used to do it too when I was an anti-theist. What ISN'T cute is this silly new fad claiming that Jesus didn't exist historically, which is hogwash and every academic historian that is deemed credible, whether christian or not, knows it.

Keep believing what you want. Doesn't change the facts, mate.
Composer
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3/8/2016 2:44:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 2:38:55 AM, logicinlife wrote:
I love when atheists try to interpret scripture for those who STUDY it and when they find random links on the internet and say, "Its true!".
Those you deem as ' studying scripture ' are only ' studying ' at best hearsay regarding MYTHICAL characters like jebus, Pauly, Moses & apostles.

Just because they are mentioned in a Story book doesn't make them literal-real!

Keep believing what you want. Doesn't change the facts fatal to you!

Better luck next times!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/8/2016 2:49:11 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 2:34:45 AM, logicinlife wrote:
Except no credible historian agrees with you or your bias links. Agnostic, atheist, and Christian historians make it simple; he existed, period.
Provide a List of these supposed ' credible historians ' along with what ' credible Historian means, and what they have to say, along with their proofs & I'll take a look!

Meanwhile you remain a fraud, belching out propaganda for your Snake-Oil ideology!
logicinlife
Posts: 31
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3/8/2016 2:50:14 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 2:44:27 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/8/2016 2:38:55 AM, logicinlife wrote:
I love when atheists try to interpret scripture for those who STUDY it and when they find random links on the internet and say, "Its true!".
Those you deem as ' studying scripture ' are only ' studying ' at best hearsay regarding MYTHICAL characters like jebus, Pauly, Moses & apostles.

Just because they are mentioned in a Story book doesn't make them literal-real!

Keep believing what you want. Doesn't change the facts fatal to you!

Better luck next times!

Luck? You've said nothing of any substance. Quite silly.

You may want to take a look back at your sources and use your noggin, kiddo. If I'm wrong, than my faith was of no importance, and I still lived a fulfilling life. If your wrong, well... the judge will be collecting on all of those tickets you're racking up.
Composer
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3/8/2016 2:59:06 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 2:44:27 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/8/2016 2:38:55 AM, logicinlife wrote:
I love when atheists try to interpret scripture for those who STUDY it and when they find random links on the internet and say, "Its true!".
Those you deem as ' studying scripture ' are only ' studying ' at best hearsay regarding MYTHICAL characters like jebus, Pauly, Moses & apostles.

Just because they are mentioned in a Story book doesn't make them literal-real!

Keep believing what you want. Doesn't change the facts fatal to you!

Better luck next times!

At 3/8/2016 2:50:14 AM, logicinlife wrote:
Luck? You've said nothing of any substance. Quite silly.
I asked you to provide proofs of a Historical jebus!

You replied with ' well some historians say so ' but you failed to provide the supportive proofs you claim they have!

I agree you are quite silly!

At 3/8/2016 2:50:14 AM, logicinlife wrote:
You may want to take a look back at your sources and use your noggin, kiddo. If I'm wrong, than my faith was of no importance, and I still lived a fulfilling life.
Nah!

You have been living a lie!

At 3/8/2016 2:50:14 AM, logicinlife wrote:
If your wrong, well... the judge will be collecting on all of those tickets you're racking up.
Your failures proves I am NOT wrong!

Your capitulation to idle threats in lieu of a shred of credibility for your cause puts you in the same league as Psycho MCB who makes similar empty threats!

Much better luck next times!