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Mirza
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11/9/2010 7:30:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Updated version of: http://www.debate.org...

I will answer the questions soon. I have some things to do for a while. So far, I got the following:

At 11/6/2010 8:07:13 AM, beem0r wrote:
Why do you think it's true, and do you think that I or anyone else should also think it's true for the same reason?

At 11/6/2010 10:03:45 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm not sure how reliable this is, but I'll like an explanation regardless.

Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.

At 11/6/2010 6:53:25 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I understand perfectly that the Quran says that men and women are equal.
Mohummad had
a) a wife who was a powerful business women who actually instigated marriage
b) another wife who was warrior and lead a powerful army

Sha'ria law is basically a culture/set-of-laws that are based on the tenats of the Quran and takes inspiration from the Sunnah of Mohummad (amirite?), so since you are asking about "Islam" rather than the Quran, I think my questions can still be answered, since they relate to the culture of Islam.

I have seen you on many times advocate Sha'ria law Mirza by comparing the number of rapes in Western countries to non-warring "Sha'ria" countries, like the United States compared to Saudi Arabia.


I'll keep my first question quite simple, since I hope this can turn into an educational discussion. I know I have many misconceptions about Islam, lets see if we can clear some of the bad ones up.

Why are women living under Sha'ria Law(Saudi Arabia, for example) almost completely unable to have any overt involvement in how their country is ran, politically, religiously or socially?

At 11/6/2010 7:02:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why are there 7 heavens. Is there any particular reason that isn't arbitrary?

At 11/7/2010 12:54:32 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Does the Quran really says that beating your wife is okay?

At 11/7/2010 1:05:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
What did Mohammed believe in prior to his revelation? Was he cirumcised, how, where and to whom did he pray?

At 11/7/2010 1:48:03 AM, tvellalott wrote:
How do you think a mardi-gras festival would go down in Saudi Arabia?

At 11/7/2010 4:36:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Does the Quran allow masturbation?
tvellalott
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11/9/2010 1:59:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 1:48:03 AM, tvellalott wrote:
How do you think a mardi-gras festival would go down in Saudi Arabia?

You can ignore this one. :P
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tvellalott
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11/11/2010 9:05:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I hope you don't think this is going to disappear into the annuals of time.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Mirza
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11/12/2010 3:16:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I will answer tvellalott's question first and get the rest when I come back home.

To tvellalott:

There is no doubt that you are correct concerning the status of men and women in Islam. The religion recognizes both as equal in the sight of God. Neither gender is superior to one another in a general sense, except for some parts which one gender is superior to over another, and vice versa. For instance, Islam says that the mother must be obeyed several times before the father. In the Qur'an we read that the status of the mother is mentioned exclusively, giving her absolute honor for the role as a mother. In the Bible, you will hardly find a single verse where the mother is honored, but the father is not (meaning exclusively). In the Qur'an, you find parents being honored, but lots of times you find a woman being raised high in status exclusively, as a parent and a honorable gender.

Moreover, if you read the Qur'an, you will not find a single place where the word "abb" meaning "father" is applied to God. In the Bible, for instance, you find one of the most famous prayers mentioning "Father" as God. However, in the Qur'an, such a thing does not exist for God. Instead, the word "rabb" is found which means "Lord." God Himself never assigns a gender to Him, because genders belong His creations. This means that there is not a single place where God assigns any gender to Himself and indicated that this gender is superior to the other.

On top of that Allah refers to Himself as "He" in many places. You might think that this refers to a male since it is not "she" or "it." However, this is due to the Arabic grammar, which only has "she" or "he," i.e. two genders. I will not go in-depth with this, but for something to be classified as of female gender, it must have a specific ending, i.e. "th." Allah does not end with that nor is He of female gender, which means that the reason why He refers to Himself as "He" is only because it is a refraction of "she." He cannot grammatically be classified as "female" because "God" does not belong to that category, but He cannot be classified as "male" either because there is no gender assigned to Him, so the only reason why it is "He" is because it is refraction of "she" which God cannot use for Himself, grammatically speaking.

Moving on to your main point regarding women and their role in politics, society, or religious matters. Unfortunately, you are very mistaken about this matter. While I am not aware of the specific rules of women in politics in e.g. Saudi Arabia, this does not matter because we should look at the Islamic teachings, not Saudi Arabia. In Islam, a woman has every right to be part of a country's leadership, to vote, to be involved in social matters (and this is actually important for them), and to have a say in religion.

However, what a woman is not allowed to be is the leader (above all) of a nation. That is because she might get pregnant, and women can be very disturbed through pregnancy. She might not handle the stress due to politics. Then she needs to spend time on raising the children as is her role as a mother, because her love and their relationship to their mother is one of the most important things. This can be a great burden on a woman, which is why Islam says that a woman is not supposed to be the leader of all, but she has every right to be part of the leadership. For instance, if her husband rules a nation, she has the right to be involved and help him, but she is not supposed to have the ultimate role because things could be messed up due to the challenges she must face as a mother, etc.

Moreover, women have the right to vote, and they have every right to be part of lawmaking. Nothing in Islam says the opposite. Regarding societal matters, women have the right to be involved in making lives easier for people, helping other women out, and lots of other things. It is the same as with men. In fact, it is important that women also educate themselves and become teachers, doctors, psychologists, etc. It is not recommended that a woman does heavy work at all. This is for men, so both have their roles, all of which are equal. Also, in Islam, a woman is not obliged to work, but can do so. It is because the man is obliged to work, and he is obliged to spend his wealth on his wife and their offspring, and meet the needs of his wife if he is able to do so.

This is why Islam tells that inheritance is in larger amount to males than females, namely because males are obliged to spend their money on them, while females are not under most circumstances. That is why the inheritance law is weighed entirely fairly with the rest of the rulings.

I hope this is sufficient. Ask for more if you want.
Mirza
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11/12/2010 5:36:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To bluesteel:

The Qur'an itself does not explicitly prohibit the secret habit, although it does indicate that it is prohibited. In the Qur'an, chapter25, verses 1-6 it says,

"The believers must (eventually) win through,- Those who humble themselves in their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame."

The phrase "[those] Who abstain from sex..." also means "those who guard their private parts." While this itself refers to fornication, adultery, and other prohibited sexual acts, we have hadith which indicate that the secret habit is prohibited.

"We were with the Prophet while we were young and had no wealth whatsoever. So Allah's Messenger said, 'O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty (i.e. his private parts from committing illegal sexual intercourse etc.), and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power.'" Sahih al-Bukhari, 5066

Had the secret habit been allowed, the beloved Prophet would recommend it to a person who is unable to marry, but instead he recommended that a person fasts and guards his modesty, so as to lower his sexual desires. Why exactly is the secret habit prohibited, then? Scientifically speaking, this act might be harmful, or it might be beneficial. That does, withal, not matter whatsoever. The important part is the spiritual guidance from Islam, which tells us to refrain from acting upon this "secret habit" due to several reasons. I will elaborate.

In Islam, a person must seek patience from God and be patient whenever a calamity befalls him. Islam tells us to remain chaste until we are married, which is part of our test on patience. When we go through hard times but still follow the orders of God with patience, then we get highly rewarded. However, some people avoid being patient, and then they jump over to masturbation, hence they reduce their patience over time. Islam therefore makes it easier for a person to develop his patience and grow stronger in Faith by prohibiting what will hinder him from developing properly.

Another thing is that every time a person gets orgasm, he enter a state of janabah, meaning "impurity." In order to clean oneself, one must take a shower and let the water reach all parts of the body. However, if a person acts upon the secret habit, he might have a hard time purifying himself after every time, and what happens is that he/she misses prayers or something similar, and then they feel guilty, etc. Islam does not want to place great burdens on people, which is why it tells them to follow what will make prayer, charity, etc. easier to handle for them.

Regarding patience, as I already said, it is important for a person. When, however, someone stands between being patient/waiting for marriage and not being patient/masturbating, it is part of his Faith to choose fasting, being modest, etc. instead of masturbating and letting go patience and maybe even modesty. Also, many people prefer masturbating with usage of pornographic material, which is forbidden in Islam, and when a person is alone and wants to "settle" his sexual desires, he might simply want to use pornography for that.

So, for people to be able to pray easier and to follow other guidelines in Islam easier, Islam tells them to avoid anything which will disturb them. Whether or not masturbation is healthy or unhealthy does not matter. It is about whether or not it benefits one in his religion, and it does not, because it involves risks of a person abandoning prayer, etc. Even if a person is eating a fruit too much and gets too "active" to not be able to perform prayers properly, then he should also refrain from eating the fruit. Islam wants people to be Faithful to God in the easiest ways possible, and masturbation, among other things, can make it harder. It is not the case for everyone, but many. I hope this helps. You are always welcome to ask more questions.
Mirza
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11/12/2010 5:40:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In addition to that - bluesteel - there are some people who horribly do the thing to act upon a monstrous thing like honor killing, and if a female has masturbated before she married such a mistaken person, he might think that she was with someone else, and then kill her. These people are very mistaken, and Islam warns us against them, which is why it is another good reason for females not to masturbate, because they might not be able to prove that they were not fornicating with someone else prior to marriage.
lovelife
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11/12/2010 6:03:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Question, so does that mean that masturbation is forbidden or that it is allowed in moderation?
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lovelife
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11/12/2010 6:05:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/12/2010 5:40:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
In addition to that - bluesteel - there are some people who horribly do the thing to act upon a monstrous thing like honor killing, and if a female has masturbated before she married such a mistaken person, he might think that she was with someone else, and then kill her. These people are very mistaken, and Islam warns us against them, which is why it is another good reason for females not to masturbate, because they might not be able to prove that they were not fornicating with someone else prior to marriage.

A good reason to make pre-marital sex not illegal there. [don't really want to fight about it, just pointing out horrible double standards. How can he prove he wasn't with someone else before? Does that mean he should be killed because he can't prove innocence? Lol]
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tvellalott
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11/12/2010 6:23:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Most people wouldn't have read your entire post Mirza, I did. My argument against both Islam and Christianity is always the same. What you get on and say here about your religion is your opinion. You and m93sammon might both be arguing the same opinion, which I'm sure most young muslims share. That is not the problem.

So I'm afraid I was not answered. I understand that from the point of view of an intelligent, rational, caring individual like yourself, the Qu'ran is wonderful. You will obviously make a wonderful husband, who will punsh his wife, if neccesary, only with ceremonial, gentle brushs of silk. (Strawman, I know, I know)

I was talking more specifically about the subcultures of Islam. Humans are wicked beings, religion or not. Too often the wonderful books are taken out of context and used as justification for horrible deeds.

I acknowledge that in todays media "Muslims" are targeted as a threat to humanity, while the goverment immigrates and supports the building of communes of these very people and that these accusations are mostly false.

From my point of view it is done intentionally, to build unrest in the community, thereby distracting us from the next tax-collecting ream of punishment and/or self-approved payrise. I don't watch any news if I can avoid it and base my opinions on a combination of subjectivity veiled as objectivity and overt subjectivity.

What concerns me most of all is the lack of outcry from so-called majorities of non-wicked Muslims that don't overtly speak out against the injustices within their own communities. Where are you guys?

Mirza, you believe Islam is perfect. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. My first question was completely loaded. I knew what your answer would be. My next and only real question now is, why don't you put your obvious talent towards tackling the actual problems of the Islamic community instead of constantly trying to justify your beliefs to people who don't really care?

Preach to the believers. Stand up and demolish the stereotypes and prove the true nature of Islam. Except for the praying and sh!t, it sounds awesome. Now excuse me while I continue to get wasted.
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bluesteel
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11/12/2010 7:05:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thanks for the response Mirza; it was very informative.

I'm also interested in what parts of the New Testament Muslims accept and reject.

Specifically, do Muslims accept the Virgin Birth, resurrection, and the End of Days?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
vardas0antras
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11/17/2010 12:28:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/15/2010 3:41:45 AM, tvellalott wrote:
http://i52.tinypic.com...

http://i52.tinypic.com...
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Ren
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11/23/2010 1:40:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/11/2010 9:05:16 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I hope you don't think this is going to disappear into the annuals of time.

Annals.
FREEDO
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11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.
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GeoLaureate8
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11/23/2010 1:51:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.

I guess women get to have 72 male virgins. Not sure that they would consider that heaven though. Lol.
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Ren
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11/23/2010 1:52:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 1:51:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.

I guess women get to have 72 male virgins. Not sure that they would consider that heaven though. Lol.

Personally, dealing with 72 women does not sound like a picnic, either.

4 or 5, maybe, but 72 menstrual cycles sound quite a bit more like Hell.
InquireTruth
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11/23/2010 2:28:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 1:52:57 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:51:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.

I guess women get to have 72 male virgins. Not sure that they would consider that heaven though. Lol.

Personally, dealing with 72 women does not sound like a picnic, either.

4 or 5, maybe, but 72 menstrual cycles sound quite a bit more like Hell.

Menstrual cycles tend to synchronize with other women so there would be a period in every month that all 72 women would simultaneously be at the height of emotional chaos.
annhasle
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11/23/2010 2:30:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 2:28:56 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:52:57 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:51:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.

I guess women get to have 72 male virgins. Not sure that they would consider that heaven though. Lol.

Personally, dealing with 72 women does not sound like a picnic, either.

4 or 5, maybe, but 72 menstrual cycles sound quite a bit more like Hell.

Menstrual cycles tend to synchronize with other women so there would be a period in every month that all 72 women would simultaneously be at the height of emotional chaos.

Women will STILL have their period in heaven?! Goddammit....
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
bluesteel
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11/23/2010 6:23:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 2:30:27 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/23/2010 2:28:56 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:52:57 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:51:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/23/2010 1:46:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do you seriously believe that you'll get 72 virgins in heaven?

Were the virgins created specifically for that purpose or did they used to be people on Earth?

If not they didn't have previous lives on Earth then what do women have to look forward to in heaven?

Why would there even be any Muslim women? Seems like they get the short-end of the stick.

I guess women get to have 72 male virgins. Not sure that they would consider that heaven though. Lol.

Personally, dealing with 72 women does not sound like a picnic, either.

4 or 5, maybe, but 72 menstrual cycles sound quite a bit more like Hell.

Menstrual cycles tend to synchronize with other women so there would be a period in every month that all 72 women would simultaneously be at the height of emotional chaos.

Women will STILL have their period in heaven?! Goddammit....

lol @ all this. I think hell is the same as heaven. Men still get 72 beautiful virgins. But they're all on their period 24/7. And the men are all eunuchs.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
J.Kenyon
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11/23/2010 6:37:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 6:23:33 PM, bluesteel wrote:
lol @ all this. I think hell is the same as heaven. Men still get 72 beautiful virgins. But they're all on their period 24/7. And the men are all eunuchs.

Sigged.
tvellalott
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11/24/2010 10:46:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/23/2010 2:31:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
May I please answer the questions? Thank you.

You certainly can.
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tvellalott
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12/9/2010 5:20:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/15/2010 3:41:45 AM, tvellalott wrote:
http://i52.tinypic.com...
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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