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On Joy

RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):

1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?

For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/8/2016 8:32:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
When you laugh, you loose yourself, you feel joy.

When you drink, you loose yourself, you feel joy.

When you have sex, you loose yourself, you feel joy.

When you don't care for joy, you feel joy.

- TREssspa
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2016 9:55:06 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 8:32:49 AM, Tela wrote:
[Stuff ignored]
Hi TREssspa,

I hope you're well.

While I have in the past spent some time in converse with you, you have recently been banned from DDO for various kinds of antisocial behaviour. I personally think you have been rude and obnoxious many times, and that you don't respect this site or its members, and so this moderatorial decision is warranted.

Consequently I will not be replying substantively to your posts under this or any other alias unless and until you have been officially welcomed back to DDO.

You will have no further joy from corresponding with me, so kindly bugger off.

Sincerely,

Ruv.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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3/8/2016 10:27:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 9:55:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/8/2016 8:32:49 AM, Tela wrote:
[Stuff ignored]
Hi TREssspa,

I hope you're well.

While I have in the past spent some time in converse with you, you have recently been banned from DDO for various kinds of antisocial behaviour. I personally think you have been rude and obnoxious many times, and that you don't respect this site or its members, and so this moderatorial decision is warranted.

Consequently I will not be replying substantively to your posts under this or any other alias unless and until you have been officially welcomed back to DDO.

You will have no further joy from corresponding with me, so kindly bugger off.

Sincerely,

Ruv.

Being young makes joy , you know when your not in no religious groups , no political crap. Building a track in the dirt to drive your matchbox , or setting up army men in great positions, maybe building a great jump. Then no more joy till you have a kid . And from then on, joy is remember ages after you have it. Like fun and memorable things are.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/8/2016 11:35:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 9:55:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/8/2016 8:32:49 AM, Tela wrote:
[Stuff ignored]
Hi TREssspa,

I hope you're well.

While I have in the past spent some time in converse with you, you have recently been banned from DDO for various kinds of antisocial behaviour. I personally think you have been rude and obnoxious many times, and that you don't respect this site or its members, and so this moderatorial decision is warranted.

Consequently I will not be replying substantively to your posts under this or any other alias unless and until you have been officially welcomed back to DDO.

You will have no further joy from corresponding with me, so kindly bugger off.

Sincerely,

Ruv.

The whole matter started when Hari called you an untouchable, Draba, and when I reacted.

For you, I lost my friend Harikrish.

But if you want so, ok , I will never visit DDO again.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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3/8/2016 12:03:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 11:35:52 AM, Tela wrote:
At 3/8/2016 9:55:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/8/2016 8:32:49 AM, Tela wrote:
[Stuff ignored]
Hi TREssspa,

I hope you're well.

While I have in the past spent some time in converse with you, you have recently been banned from DDO for various kinds of antisocial behaviour. I personally think you have been rude and obnoxious many times, and that you don't respect this site or its members, and so this moderatorial decision is warranted.

Consequently I will not be replying substantively to your posts under this or any other alias unless and until you have been officially welcomed back to DDO.

You will have no further joy from corresponding with me, so kindly bugger off.

Sincerely,

Ruv.

The whole matter started when Hari called you an untouchable, Draba, and when I reacted.

For you, I lost my friend Harikrish.

But if you want so, ok , I will never visit DDO again.

In response to Hari calling Ruvdubra an untouchable, you spam Bullproof's posts?
Could only make sense to a puppet.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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3/8/2016 5:22:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 5:15:15 PM, desmac wrote:
Whenever I try to feel Joy, she slaps my hand away.

You have two hands. Why don't you give her your other hand. Desmac needs to feel joy too.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2016 5:25:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 10:27:16 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 3/8/2016 9:55:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?
Being young makes joy, you know when your not in no religious groups , no political crap.
So being safe, and not having to be responsible is joyful...

Building a track in the dirt to drive your matchbox , or setting up army men in great positions, maybe building a great jump.
Construction, discovery, the aesthetic pleasure of creating an adventure you yourself control?

Then no more joy till you have a kid . And from then on, joy is remember ages after you have it. Like fun and memorable things are.

Thank you for your answer, Db8.

Do you think joy is necessary for a healthy life, or only desirable? Why or why not?

Is more joy necessarily better? Why or why not?

Do you think religion may play a part in creating joy, or appreciating joy more? If so, how? If not, why do you think the religious so often believe it does?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/8/2016 5:30:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):

1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?

For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.

Joy is something that is inspired by an experience or sensation that exalts you in some way. Certain songs bring me joy, certain passages I read, when I hold a baby in my arms, or when I hold my wife. Joy is the recognition that there is something wonderful happening and letting it lift you like a rising tide lifts a ship above its normal, everyday place in life. That is, perhaps a bad analogy, but the best I can come up with on the spur of the moment.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2016 5:37:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 5:30:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.
Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):
1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?
For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.
Joy is something that is inspired by an experience or sensation that exalts you in some way. Certain songs bring me joy, certain passages I read, when I hold a baby in my arms, or when I hold my wife. Joy is the recognition that there is something wonderful happening and letting it lift you like a rising tide lifts a ship above its normal, everyday place in life. That is, perhaps a bad analogy, but the best I can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Thank you, DH.

As you know (since the comment was directed to you), one religious member said that as an atheist you were incapable of 'true' joy. Like me, you've probably heard it before: that the life of an atheist is a life of either nihilism or amoral hedonism, but either way it's a life without joy, purpose or values.

Do you think joy is important? Why or why not?

Do you believe yourself less joyful than the religious people you know?

If you felt there weren't enough joy in your life, what would you do about it?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/8/2016 6:02:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 5:37:21 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/8/2016 5:30:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.
Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):
1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?
For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.
Joy is something that is inspired by an experience or sensation that exalts you in some way. Certain songs bring me joy, certain passages I read, when I hold a baby in my arms, or when I hold my wife. Joy is the recognition that there is something wonderful happening and letting it lift you like a rising tide lifts a ship above its normal, everyday place in life. That is, perhaps a bad analogy, but the best I can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Thank you, DH.

As you know (since the comment was directed to you), one religious member said that as an atheist you were incapable of 'true' joy. Like me, you've probably heard it before: that the life of an atheist is a life of either nihilism or amoral hedonism, but either way it's a life without joy, purpose or values.

Do you think joy is important? Why or why not?

It is extremely important. It's part of what makes life worth living, whether it's that quiet joy one experiences when viewing a beautiful sunrise, the exuberant joy of playing with a child and feeling that childlike joy again with them, or the deep joy of holding your beloved in your arms, we all need joy in our lives.

Do you believe yourself less joyful than the religious people you know?

No, I don't see a difference. They feel joy in the same things I do, even if they credit it to their deity.

If you felt there weren't enough joy in your life, what would you do about it?

Find something joyful to do, visit with someone who brings joy to my life, any number of things. Without joy life would be more like a job and less like living.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/8/2016 6:11:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Ok, to Athiests:

Do you ever feel that there must be a next joy? Do you feel that you have to keep chasing joy after joy to get something that will last for any length of time?
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/8/2016 6:14:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:11:00 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
Ok, to Athiests:

Do you ever feel that there must be a next joy? Do you feel that you have to keep chasing joy after joy to get something that will last for any length of time?

If you aren't seeking joy in your life, what are you doing? I never said joy couldn't be lasting and if you are fortunate enough to have someone you love then that joy is one that is constant. I don't see the problem with seeking joy. That doesn't mean physical pleasure but the warm glow that you feel when the world somehow touches that innocent and wondering part of you we all share. I don't understand why you seem to feel that seeking joy is somehow a bad thing.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2016 6:15:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:11:00 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
Ok, to Athiests:
Do you ever feel that there must be a next joy? Do you feel that you have to keep chasing joy after joy to get something that will last for any length of time?
An interesting question, VB.

I wonder if you're asking whether joy is fleeting, and whether life as an atheist is miserable in between joyful times, or whether there's peace and comfort?
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/8/2016 6:23:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 5:11:14 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/8/2016 11:35:52 AM, Tela wrote:
I will never visit DDO again.
Okay, bye!

~:D
Never fart near dog
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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3/8/2016 6:25:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:11:00 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
Ok, to Athiests:

Do you ever feel that there must be a next joy? Do you feel that you have to keep chasing joy after joy to get something that will last for any length of time?

O.o?

No.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/8/2016 6:33:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):

1) What have been your most joyful moments?
Birth of my son. My wedding day. That great rave in the desert on clean MDMA.

All the same normal stuff we all find joy in - religious or not.

2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?

For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/8/2016 7:22:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:14:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
If you aren't seeking joy in your life, what are you doing?

enjoying joy.

I never said joy couldn't be lasting and if you are fortunate enough to have someone you love then that joy is one that is constant.

can anyone who is "fortunate enough" confirm?
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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3/8/2016 7:25:24 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):
A Rorschach test?
I assume you don't want to talk about erotic and/or artificially stimulated joy.
1) What have been your most joyful moments?
in nature (camping skiing biking etc), with others (acknowledgement, love), achievement (discipline)
2) What triggered them?
a sense of perfection
3) How did you experience them?
completely
4) What made them special?
they were unexpected
5) What do they mean to you now?
fond memories
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them?
didn't
7) Did anyone else understand?
I'd have to ask them
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,131
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3/8/2016 7:26:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):

1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?

For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.

Well, I would say my family brings me joy - when my children/wife are laughing, when my children/wife are getting to try new things they are interested in, when they accomplish something worthwhile. That is pure joy. I also find joy in nature. (not the 'Joy' Desmac was referring to!) Being surrounded by nature - the smell of clean air, hearing the wind rustle the leaves/grass, seeing the stars - are all experiences that bring me joy.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/8/2016 7:26:49 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 7:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
To my surprise, in a recent thread, I heard that atheists are incapable of 'true' joy.

Setting aside True Scotsman Fallacy (e.g. if an atheist experiences joy, it can't be true), may I ask of our irreligious members (atheist or other):

1) What have been your most joyful moments?
2) What triggered them?
3) How did you experience them?
4) What made them special?
5) What do they mean to you now?
6) How did you celebrate and commemorate them? and
7) Did anyone else understand?

For our religious members, please feel free to comment on what you think makes joy 'true'. Also, if you'd like to talk about your own joy, please feel free. But please keep your 'joy' posts separate from your 'is it true' or 'is mine better' posts. I think it's kinder and better that way.

To me joy is not a religious thing at all. Joy can be had by anyone and what some consider joy others would not. Im not sure why someone would make the claim that joy cannot be found by atheists. I would think they may have a better shot at it then some believers I know. I dont remember ever the bible saying anything like that about joy. Now peace, maybe..but not joy
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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3/8/2016 7:31:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 5:37:21 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

Do you think joy is important? Why or why not?
On the fence on this, Joy makes life worthy, but it doesn't put food on my plate.
Do you believe yourself less joyful than the religious people you know?
No
If you felt there weren't enough joy in your life, what would you do about it?
Personal reflection
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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3/8/2016 7:34:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:11:00 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
Ok, to Athiests:

Do you ever feel that there must be a next joy? Do you feel that you have to keep chasing joy after joy to get something that will last for any length of time?
No
No
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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3/8/2016 7:41:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
There's plenty of joy in my life, of varying degrees. The most joyous, off the top of my head:

1. Getting out of school on the first day of summer each year as a kid and feeling weightless.
2. The exhilaration of transitioning from high school to college, and the freedom of finally living on my own.
3. Those first weeks of courtship with my then-girlfriend (now wife).
4. The entire week leading up to and including our wedding day.
5. Every recovering Sunday after a weekend full of partying with friends.
6. The births of my two kids.
7. Vacations at the beach with family.
8. Spending weekends at arcades with my dad when I was a kid.

And every moment of it spent without the fear of some bogeyman waiting to judge and condemn me for it. Knowing this life is fleeting and not just some warm-up for eternity. Really, I question whether anyone other than atheists (or at least those who don't believe they're going to an eternal paradise) can experience as full a joy as we can.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/9/2016 1:24:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Thank you to members for their candid responses to date. It has triggered a lot of thoughts for me, and I wanted to get some down.

After 32 years of marriage I still always enjoy seeing Mrs Draba when she wakes up, or when we meet at the end of the day. We have numerous silly games and rituals just to make the other laugh, which are both enjoyable and sometimes hilariously funny. I enjoy cooking with her, cycling with her, talking with her on long drives. Likewise, I enjoy the company of family and friends -- especially sharing food, making jokes or exploring an idea.

But I get joy from other sources too. Playing music with friends brings me joy. Sparring in boxing (which I've now stopped due to cumulative injury) was always joyful too -- not so much the idea of whaling on your partner, but the mutual respect and intensity of attention. Almost all exercise is joyful for me -- and the more intense it is, the more joy I feel. Building things -- physical things like carpentry, or a meal, but intangible things too like designs -- those things are joyful. Meeting new people professionally and getting to learn about them, and solve problems for them -- that's joyful too.

But there are indirect joys also... I delight in seeing children do almost anything, or helping anyone learn, or learning what they know or how they came to learn it. For me, history is joyful, though it's full of stories of cruelty and misery. There's something about each generation trying to make things better for the next that's humbling and (as Dhardage put it in another context) exalting. Animals and even plants are joyful to observe, just going about their business. Weather of almost any kind is joyful, and the crash of sea against rocky coastline seems especially joyful. Stars are joyful, despite the appallingly unlivable vacuum of space and the terrifying energies they consume.

Scuba-diving to me is joyful -- not just the feel of it, but the immersion in a complex world where everything knows what's going on but me. :)

Fiction is joyful -- especially since I've learned first-hand how much care goes into its writing. Music is joyful since I started learning how to compose it.

People-watching is joyful. Even watching harried people commuting or shopping makes me notice how much they manage their crankiness and distraction.

Helping anyone is joyful. Offering a compliment, or sympathy, or expressing genuine respect seems a joy in itself.

If you asked me, I wouldn't normally say that I lived a miserable life nor a joyful one, but listing it like that I realise that joys are so abundant, I simply accept them. Life for me isn't a joy-hunt. I suspect it's more about finding good and useful ways to express joy. I've long held the view that whatever we do, we ought to do for love -- including the things we really don't want to do. And by love I don't mean bliss, I mean an expression of care and respect for others, and for the world we live in. Care seems more to me an expression of joy than a burden, though perhaps that depends on how much one is bound by duty and expectation rather than love.

Reflecting on these words, they seem to me something a religious person might write... except I'm not at all religious, and am deeply uncomfortable with religious dogmas and rituals. But I do think it a privilege to be alive, to notice things, to care about them, to learn about them, respect them, admire them, and contribute to our appreciation of them. That's a gift we all share, and I don't personally believe it requires religiosity to appreciate.

Is it 'true' joy? I have no idea, but I think it presumptuous to say that is not.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/9/2016 5:24:36 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/8/2016 6:02:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/8/2016 5:37:21 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Do you think joy is important? Why or why not?
It is extremely important. It's part of what makes life worth living, whether it's that quiet joy one experiences when viewing a beautiful sunrise, the exuberant joy of playing with a child and feeling that childlike joy again with them, or the deep joy of holding your beloved in your arms, we all need joy in our lives.
I think joy makes life wonderful, adventurous and a cause for celebration.

I also think it can help make us brave, generous and compassionate.

But I'm never sure whether joy comes from without or from within. I do know though that people who live a life of habitual anxiety, resentment or frustration, if they are safe, can learn to feel more joy and fret, resent and regret less.

Do you believe yourself less joyful than the religious people you know?
No, I don't see a difference. They feel joy in the same things I do, even if they credit it to their deity.
I think so too. I think they get so used to attaching joy to a story, they think the story created the joy. And that's very unfair to the majority of the world who doesn't share their story, yet are still capable of similar joys.

If you felt there weren't enough joy in your life, what would you do about it?
Find something joyful to do, visit with someone who brings joy to my life, any number of things. Without joy life would be more like a job and less like living.
For me the important things are to be safe, to ensure the people I love are safe, to care about more than just me and mine, and to find dignity and meaning in what I have.

Humans are amazing! From scared, naked little tree-swingers who knew nothing about the world they lived in, sick with fear, torn by grief, prone to every disease, we have built so much, generation upon generation.

We can do so very much with so very little because of our capacity to think, share joy and to love.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/9/2016 3:32:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I'm very sorry, Ruv. I have opened this thread several times and each time I start thinking about what to write and realize that I would on and on and on... and would wind up filling pages of things, events, people, etc. that have brought me joy. And, that would only answer your first question. I can only see but a entire book being born from your OP.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth