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A Nonsensical Universe

FREEDO
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11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:05:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:03:12 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I think Freedo is on the verge of becoming a Christian existentialist.

Perhaps, or maybe a mental break-don, or maybe still I shall become so enlightened with my acceptance of complete ignorance that all of existence shall fade away--and that was the purpose of it all.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
tvellalott
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11/9/2010 5:06:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
We have many natural occuring things on this planet that make no logical sense, it only stands to reason that in an infinite, eternal universe the possibilities are endless.

For instance, when I think about aliens, I try to imagine non-carbon based life.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:07:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:06:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
We have many natural occuring things on this planet that make no logical sense, it only stands to reason that in an infinite, eternal universe the possibilities are endless.

For instance, when I think about aliens, I try to imagine non-carbon based life.

That not nonsensical, it's just complex.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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11/9/2010 5:08:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:05:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:03:12 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I think Freedo is on the verge of becoming a Christian existentialist.

Perhaps, or maybe a mental break-don, or maybe still I shall become so enlightened with my acceptance of complete ignorance that all of existence shall fade away--and that was the purpose of it all.

Infinite resignation is the final barrier preceding the leap of faith...read up on some Kierkegaard.
tvellalott
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11/9/2010 5:08:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:07:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:06:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
We have many natural occuring things on this planet that make no logical sense, it only stands to reason that in an infinite, eternal universe the possibilities are endless.

For instance, when I think about aliens, I try to imagine non-carbon based life.

That not nonsensical, it's just complex.

Can they not be the same thing?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:11:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:08:24 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:05:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:03:12 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I think Freedo is on the verge of becoming a Christian existentialist.

Perhaps, or maybe a mental break-don, or maybe still I shall become so enlightened with my acceptance of complete ignorance that all of existence shall fade away--and that was the purpose of it all.

Infinite resignation is the final barrier preceding the leap of faith...read up on some Kierkegaard.

The leap of faith is not the only choice. There are three.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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11/9/2010 5:22:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This may sound redundant...but we cannot understand things we cannot understand. If you try to picture infinity you thinl of a large space, if you think of nothingness you think of white or black. Just because our minds cannot grasp concepts does not make them impossible. If the universe is infinite, we would not be able to comprehend it because our minds have evolved in a world where everything has a beginning and an end.
Koopin
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11/9/2010 5:25:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:22:21 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
This may sound redundant...but we cannot understand things we cannot understand. If you try to picture infinity you thinl of a large space, if you think of nothingness you think of white or black. Just because our minds cannot grasp concepts does not make them impossible. If the universe is infinite, we would not be able to comprehend it because our minds have evolved in a world where everything has a beginning and an end.

Lol rocky, it is funny hearing you use "The Christian Argument."
You have been listening to to much Billy Graham.
kfc
Rockylightning
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11/9/2010 5:28:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
i'd much rather believe science that has the same impossible properties of a god rather than an omniscent being that has the impossible properties of a god.
FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:28:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:25:09 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:22:21 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
This may sound redundant...but we cannot understand things we cannot understand. If you try to picture infinity you thinl of a large space, if you think of nothingness you think of white or black. Just because our minds cannot grasp concepts does not make them impossible. If the universe is infinite, we would not be able to comprehend it because our minds have evolved in a world where everything has a beginning and an end.

Lol rocky, it is funny hearing you use "The Christian Argument."
You have been listening to to much Billy Graham.

How is this a Christian argument? Saying we don't know certainly doesn't imply God must have done it.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Koopin
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11/9/2010 5:34:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:28:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:25:09 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:22:21 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
This may sound redundant...but we cannot understand things we cannot understand. If you try to picture infinity you thinl of a large space, if you think of nothingness you think of white or black. Just because our minds cannot grasp concepts does not make them impossible. If the universe is infinite, we would not be able to comprehend it because our minds have evolved in a world where everything has a beginning and an end.

Lol rocky, it is funny hearing you use "The Christian Argument."
You have been listening to to much Billy Graham.

How is this a Christian argument? Saying we don't know certainly doesn't imply God must have done it.

Many theologians beleive that since God is eternal (and since he created beginning and end) that there simply was no beginning before God. This negates the 'Where did God come from' argument. Yet our minds are not made to understand this. While I agree with this, I still not educated as much as I wish to be on the matter. I should start reading about it again. I beleive even the apostle Paul talks about how our minds can't even begin to understand God.
kfc
FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:38:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:34:16 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:28:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:25:09 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:22:21 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
This may sound redundant...but we cannot understand things we cannot understand. If you try to picture infinity you thinl of a large space, if you think of nothingness you think of white or black. Just because our minds cannot grasp concepts does not make them impossible. If the universe is infinite, we would not be able to comprehend it because our minds have evolved in a world where everything has a beginning and an end.

Lol rocky, it is funny hearing you use "The Christian Argument."
You have been listening to to much Billy Graham.

How is this a Christian argument? Saying we don't know certainly doesn't imply God must have done it.

Many theologians beleive that since God is eternal (and since he created beginning and end) that there simply was no beginning before God. This negates the 'Where did God come from' argument. Yet our minds are not made to understand this. While I agree with this, I still not educated as much as I wish to be on the matter. I should start reading about it again. I beleive even the apostle Paul talks about how our minds can't even begin to understand God.

I used to believe this as a Christian. The problem is that the removal of a "beginning" from God does not dismiss the need for a cause.

And it now baffles me how the conclusion can be made "belief in God is logical" from "it cannot be understood".
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Koopin
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11/9/2010 5:43:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:38:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:

And it now baffles me how the conclusion can be made "belief in God is logical" from "it cannot be understood".

Ah, but isn't that the case with every thing? Scientific or religions? "belief in Science is logical" from "it cannot be understood".

Nevertheless, I beleive that belief in God is logical, though because we can not completely understand him it would be absurd to say there is an answer to every "scientific" question concerning him.
kfc
annhasle
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11/9/2010 5:44:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.

I refuse to even entertain the idea that logical thinking is somehow not able to rationalize the universe. To say that at any point, abandoning the debate over the origin of the universe is somehow 'acceptable' and will then be replaced with this sad cover-up of "the universe is not bound by what we call logic", is - to be quite blunt - stupid. Absolutely stupid, imho. Once we think we've found logic to have a limit, an area that it can't be applied to... Well, it won't be a time I want to live in.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:51:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:43:27 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:38:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:

And it now baffles me how the conclusion can be made "belief in God is logical" from "it cannot be understood".

Ah, but isn't that the case with every thing? Scientific or religions? "belief in Science is logical" from "it cannot be understood".

Nevertheless, I beleive that belief in God is logical, though because we can not completely understand him it would be absurd to say there is an answer to every "scientific" question concerning him.

I am simply intellectually honest and say that I don't know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Koopin
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11/9/2010 5:53:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:44:42 PM, annhasle wrote:

Once we think we've found logic to have a limit, an area that it can't be applied to... Well, it won't be a time I want to live in.

I once heard a great lecture on that matter. Philosophically speaking, logic is what we know or think we know. If we know the sky is blue, it is logical that the sky is blue. When they thought the earth was flat, it was logical. Logic changes over time. Therefore, if we do not now this stuff about the universe, that is where logic stops, for now at least.
kfc
Koopin
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11/9/2010 5:56:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:51:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:

I am simply intellectually honest and say that I don't know.

The whole matter makes my brain melt. Like infinity minus 10000000 equals infinity.

Anyway, Koopin is being to serious... KFC.
kfc
J.Kenyon
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11/9/2010 5:57:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:38:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:34:16 PM, Koopin wrote:
Many theologians beleive that since God is eternal (and since he created beginning and end) that there simply was no beginning before God. This negates the 'Where did God come from' argument. Yet our minds are not made to understand this. While I agree with this, I still not educated as much as I wish to be on the matter. I should start reading about it again. I beleive even the apostle Paul talks about how our minds can't even begin to understand God.

I used to believe this as a Christian. The problem is that the removal of a "beginning" from God does not dismiss the need for a cause.

Not true. The universe's existence is contingent, right? By definition, all contingent objects possibly fail to exist at some time. If all contingent objects possibly fail to exist at some point, then all objects do fail to exist at some point. If all contingent objects fail to exist at some point, there must exist a necessary cause.

I don't think this proves that God exists, but it does show that it's possible that God exists, and it does away with the "well, what caused God?" silliness.

And it now baffles me how the conclusion can be made "belief in God is logical" from "it cannot be understood".

I don't see a problem here. I believe in lots of things I don't completely understand.
FREEDO
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11/9/2010 5:58:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:44:42 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.

I refuse to even entertain the idea that logical thinking is somehow not able to rationalize the universe.

Alas, the reason why you are so hostile towards expression of emotion; it is because it so easily gets in the way of your ability to reason that you feel impelled to do so.

To say that at any point, abandoning the debate over the origin of the universe is somehow 'acceptable'

Not abandoning the debate--exactly the opposite; bringing a new possibility to debate about.

and will then be replaced with this sad cover-up of "the universe is not bound by what we call logic",

Ah, you see, I never said this. There is stark difference between saying "the universe is not bound by logic" and "it may not be bound by logic". My stance on this, as well as almost everything else is simply "I don't know".

is - to be quite blunt - stupid. Absolutely stupid, imho. Once we think we've found logic to have a limit, an area that it can't be applied to... Well, it won't be a time I want to live in.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
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11/9/2010 6:09:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:58:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:44:42 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.

I refuse to even entertain the idea that logical thinking is somehow not able to rationalize the universe.

Alas, the reason why you are so hostile towards expression of emotion; it is because it so easily gets in the way of your ability to reason that you feel impelled to do so.

Not just my ability to reason, anybody's ability. And that is dangerous to any person who claims to be an intellectual.

Emotions are unstable and emotional decisions are even more unstable. To base your choices, opinions, perspective, thoughts and/or beliefs off of just emotions is sheer ludicrous in my eyes. Logical thinking is more clear and advantageous than any emotivist crap.

And I'm not hostile to 'expressions of emotion'. If I see a girl laughing on the street, I don't slap her for being happy. Hell, I laugh a lot during the day and am the class clown most of the time - I like telling jokes. I'm against using emotions not expressing them. Yes, I find them to be close to useless but it doesn't hurt your logic to express them. As long as you don't take it to far, that is... which does take practice.

To say that at any point, abandoning the debate over the origin of the universe is somehow 'acceptable'

Not abandoning the debate--exactly the opposite; bringing a new possibility to debate about.

No, your 'possibility' is simply accepting ignorance. That would halt the debate.

and will then be replaced with this sad cover-up of "the universe is not bound by what we call logic",

Ah, you see, I never said this. There is stark difference between saying "the universe is not bound by logic" and "it may not be bound by logic". My stance on this, as well as almost everything else is simply "I don't know".

"I don't know" is the reason WHY we should continue. Why be satisfied with such a response? Have you never listened to Friedrich Bacon?! "Knowledge IS power!"

is - to be quite blunt - stupid. Absolutely stupid, imho. Once we think we've found logic to have a limit, an area that it can't be applied to... Well, it won't be a time I want to live in.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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11/9/2010 6:22:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:53:47 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 5:44:42 PM, annhasle wrote:

Once we think we've found logic to have a limit, an area that it can't be applied to... Well, it won't be a time I want to live in.

I once heard a great lecture on that matter. Philosophically speaking, logic is what we know or think we know. If we know the sky is blue, it is logical that the sky is blue. When they thought the earth was flat, it was logical. Logic changes over time. Therefore, if we do not now this stuff about the universe, that is where logic stops, for now at least.

Logic does not stop at the universe debate. Granted, our understanding of the universe is limited, but that does not prove it to be impossible. That doesn't prove that logic is insufficient at solving such a debate. What you are suggesting is to sit back and give up. Well... fvck no. It's up to us to continue even when it seems to be nonsensical, isn't it?

Also, you seem to be speaking more about 'truth' (objectivity vs. subjectivity) which is an entirely different debate... Logic never changes, our perspective towards logic does. It is true, what we deem to be valid has changed. And now we have a larger, more informed basis of reasoning to claim as 'logic'. And based off of what we know, and even what we think we know, I find the OP to be a horrible, horrible idea. Hell, the very idea of it made my stomach hurt. Logical thinking can always be employed - some just choose to ignore it.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
popculturepooka
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11/9/2010 6:58:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 5:06:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
We have many natural occuring things on this planet that make no logical sense, it only stands to reason that in an infinite, eternal universe the possibilities are endless.

For instance, when I think about aliens, I try to imagine non-carbon based life.

Who said the universe is eternal?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Kleptin
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11/9/2010 7:44:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.

Not what if. This is what I have consistently argued being the case, and the reason why agnosticism is the proper conclusion compared to atheism.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
belle
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11/9/2010 7:52:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 7:44:20 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 4:48:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Perhaps we may, for the time-being, use this thread not to debate the subject but rather to entertain the idea.

What if the universe is not bound by what we perceive as logical. After all, our brains evolved for survival, not for understanding the universe.

This subject may entangle the reality paradox. For whence does the universe originate? Is it not impossible, by our understanding, for something to have come from nothing? Was it created?--then what is the cause of the creator? Was it always here?--How could that be? Did it cause itself?--that's circular reasoning.

What if the logic is purely subject and does not bind the objective world, for it is by the objective world that logic even came into being.

Not what if. This is what I have consistently argued being the case, and the reason why agnosticism is the proper conclusion compared to atheism.

assuming that what you say is so, and the universe is inherently incomprehensible, it follows that all our beliefs are unjustified, and any number of them (though we know not which) are false. given that premise, action (all action, all thought) becomes impossible. predicting outcomes becomes nothing but random chance. if thats the case... then why are we right so often? why don't utterly incomprehensible occurrences appear everywhere, constantly?

at most, i would say its possible that fundamental physics is utterly incomprehensible. but everything we know about the macro world has been tested millions of times over by billions of individuals and been proven almost beyond reasonable doubt. isn't it much more fantastic to think that our rational beliefs about the world that enable us to live in it so successful just happen to do so by chance than to believe that our beliefs match up in some predictable way with reality "out there"?

survival and "truth" aren't completely uncorrelated, and its fallacious to claim otherwise.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Kleptin
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11/9/2010 8:01:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 7:52:10 PM, belle wrote:
assuming that what you say is so, and the universe is inherently incomprehensible, it follows that all our beliefs are unjustified, and any number of them (though we know not which) are false. given that premise, action (all action, all thought) becomes impossible. predicting outcomes becomes nothing but random chance. if thats the case... then why are we right so often? why don't utterly incomprehensible occurrences appear everywhere, constantly?

at most, i would say its possible that fundamental physics is utterly incomprehensible. but everything we know about the macro world has been tested millions of times over by billions of individuals and been proven almost beyond reasonable doubt. isn't it much more fantastic to think that our rational beliefs about the world that enable us to live in it so successful just happen to do so by chance than to believe that our beliefs match up in some predictable way with reality "out there"?

Because you don't understand what is being said. Our intellectual capacity doesn't designate the occurrences of the universe. You are under the assumption that logic rules the universe because everything we know fits into logic. You haven't grasped the possibility that our logic is actually a limiting factor: we only understand the part of the universe that is logical. Our beliefs, conclusions, observations, are all held in a tight, self-enclosed system of logic, which MAY OR MAY NOT be just a subset of what actually exists.

survival and "truth" aren't completely uncorrelated, and its fallacious to claim otherwise.

Fallacious, yes. But the beauty of this discussion, and why OP was so wise as to say this is a DISCUSSION and not a DEBATE, is that it cannot be debated. When we put logic itself on the chopping block, what more is there to argue about?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
belle
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11/9/2010 8:05:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:01:10 PM, Kleptin wrote:
You haven't grasped the possibility that our logic is actually a limiting factor: we only understand the part of the universe that is logical. Our beliefs, conclusions, observations, are all held in a tight, self-enclosed system of logic, which MAY OR MAY NOT be just a subset of what actually exists.

you contradict yourself. we only understand the part of the universe that is logical and perhaps the logical is not a subset of what exists? or do you simply mean that it is possible that there is MORE to existence that which we cannot grasp? of course i agree with that, but i don't see anything brilliant or insightful about saying so. Kant already said it a few hundred years ago, and anyways that part of the universe is off limits to human inspection/knowledge... so whats the point in thinking about it?

survival and "truth" aren't completely uncorrelated, and its fallacious to claim otherwise.

Fallacious, yes. But the beauty of this discussion, and why OP was so wise as to say this is a DISCUSSION and not a DEBATE, is that it cannot be debated. When we put logic itself on the chopping block, what more is there to argue about?

if a religious person said "lets dismiss logic" you'd plane them. lol
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Kleptin
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11/9/2010 8:13:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:05:53 PM, belle wrote:
you contradict yourself.

Don't confuse a contradiction on my part with a misunderstanding on your part. If I was unclear, ask me to clarify. Asserting that I contradict myself when you yourself are unsure of what I'm saying shows that you're unnecessarily hostile to what I say.

we only understand the part of the universe that is logical and perhaps the logical is not a subset of what exists?

Not what I said. I said that we only understand the part of the universe that is logical and perhaps the logical *IS BUT A SUBSET* of what exists. Implying the next part:

or do you simply mean that it is possible that there is MORE to existence that which we cannot grasp?

That is correct.

of course i agree with that, but i don't see anything brilliant or insightful about saying so. Kant already said it a few hundred years ago, and anyways that part of the universe is off limits to human inspection/knowledge... so whats the point in thinking about it?

Don't ask me. Ask the original poster. If you agree so much, why did you initially disagree with what I said?

if a religious person said "lets dismiss logic" you'd plane them. lol

Wrong. I could only carry on a discussion with a religious person about their religious tenets of faith by first rejecting logic. It is the best and easiest way to really understand what the faithful believe.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.