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AWSM0055
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3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....

Christ denounced all of the above in the...

New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 3:19:58 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...

Well, Christ said that the law would not be abolished until everything was accomplished, and he accomplished his goal when he died...so yeah, your right...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Yes, but it was still incredibly cruel when it was written.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/9/2016 3:48:33 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 3:19:58 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...

Well, Christ said that the law would not be abolished until everything was accomplished, and he accomplished his goal when he died...so yeah, your right...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Yes, but it was still incredibly cruel when it was written.

The world was very different thousands of years ago. If ISIS walked into ancient Sparta the Spartans would have ran them off of cliffs and went after their families, then burned everyone and everything around that was nonSpartan. They raised their children to be animalistic killers. And they are seen as heros of the time. Why? Because their enemies were worse. They had to have extreme measures or face certain death. The ancient Jewish laws of Moses were for a time of violence where enlightenment was dim. Animals were ruled like animals. Christ brought order during a time when reason and modern humanism was an infant waiting to spring forth. Christ's philosophy changed all thoughts of logic and reason and tossed ancient Judaism into a tornadic self facial for its own hypocrisies and immorality.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/9/2016 3:52:55 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Spartan life

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/9/2016 3:55:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Spartan children bred for war

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/9/2016 4:50:23 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

lol the God of the OT is Jesus u smart guy. paul changed the game here not Jesus actually u following paul not Jesus. double lol. jesus says follow the OT.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/9/2016 4:52:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 3:19:58 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...

Well, Christ said that the law would not be abolished until everything was accomplished, and he accomplished his goal when he died...so yeah, your right...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Yes, but it was still incredibly cruel when it was written.

bear in mind that whenever he ranting about ISIS he criticizing the God of OT saying he was stupid and barbaric then. so he believes Jesus was an idiot back then.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/9/2016 4:54:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

btw in NT u can find Jesus criticizing jews for not following OT. everybody comes across syaing otherwise fooling himself.
Never fart near dog
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/9/2016 6:04:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 3:48:33 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
Christ brought order during a time when reason and modern humanism was an infant waiting to spring forth.

For interest, Bronto, who wrote the following words, and in what century?

Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.


Or this:
Know thyself.

Or this:
Hope is the only good that is common to all men; those who have nothing else possess hope still.

Or this:
Truth is best (of all that is) good.

Or this:
Happiness resides not in possessions, and not in gold, happiness dwells in the soul.

Or this:
By desiring little, a poor man makes himself rich.

Or this:
If thou suffer injustice, console thyself; the true unhappiness is in doing it.

All of them sound like words Jesus might have uttered, yes?

Yet by way of hint, they're not written by a single author, but all of them -- all -- were written at least four centuries before the founding of Christianity; none were written by anyone of Abrahamic tradition, yet all were available to Hellenistic Jews in the centuries before Christianity was founded, and historians generally agree that Jesus himself preached Hellenistic Judaism to a largely Jewish audience.

Conclusions:
1) Jesus did not bring order to a disordered world and certainly did not found humanism. In fact, his religious movement failed utterly in those places where he lived to pursued it, and only succeeded as a state faith centuries later, when it had become Romanised and lost its largely Judaic identity.

2) For centuries before Jesus' life is attested, the world was already working out its own order, and core humanistic ideas were already known. Yet the authors of the Gospels (and perhaps Jesus too) plundered many ideas well-known for centuries and claimed prophetic ownership of them.

That's not to say that Christianity is worthless, but is to refute the claim that the ideas it brought were substantially new. They were not new to Judaism, nor even to literate Romans, but were new and refreshingly welcome to the unlettered Roman citizens who eventually joined the faith.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 6:05:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 3:48:33 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 3:19:58 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...

Well, Christ said that the law would not be abolished until everything was accomplished, and he accomplished his goal when he died...so yeah, your right...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Yes, but it was still incredibly cruel when it was written.

The world was very different thousands of years ago. If ISIS walked into ancient Sparta the Spartans would have ran them off of cliffs and went after their families, then burned everyone and everything around that was nonSpartan. They raised their children to be animalistic killers. And they are seen as heros of the time. Why? Because their enemies were worse. They had to have extreme measures or face certain death.

Yes, but we aren't talking about enemies here, we are talking about fellow Israelite's raping each other. Totally different. And besides, they had God's blessing, apparently, so I don't see why God had to give a law like this that conformed to their "animalistic" ways.

The ancient Jewish laws of Moses were for a time of violence where enlightenment was dim.

Couldn't God provide that?

Animals were ruled like animals. Christ brought order during a time when reason and modern humanism was an infant waiting to spring forth.

No he didn't. There were plenty of Greek philosophers that came up with infinitely better ideas then him.

Christ's philosophy changed all thoughts of logic and reason and tossed ancient Judaism into a tornadic self facial for its own hypocrisies and immorality.

No it didn't.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 6:08:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 4:50:23 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

lol the God of the OT is Jesus u smart guy. paul changed the game here not Jesus actually u following paul not Jesus. double lol. jesus says follow the OT.

So so true!
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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3/9/2016 11:02:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Lequisha 5:9
And when we makeith the bible we shall put things in that can be misinterpreted to suit the reader and or the preacher. And also maybe changed at a later date if to incorrect.

Vinnie 8:2
This is a book people will live their life by , so we shall make it not straight forward ,1 thing will mean many .
tarantula
Posts: 860
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3/9/2016 12:34:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Of course a woman shouldn't marry her rapist, he should be spending time in prison.

Whilst the Bible does contain some sensible advice, much of it is GARBAGE!
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 1:06:58 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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3/9/2016 1:54:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 1:06:58 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)

"It is finished"

Yes, his suffering was over and his life was finished. So what?

Have the Earth and heavens passed away? No.

Had all been accomplished? Hardly.
Didn't Jesus have to come back in the Second Coming? Hasn't happened.
All Jesus achieved was an abrupt death leaving his followers perplexed at the unfulfilled promises he had made.

Matthew 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter[e] or one tiny pen stroke[f] shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (Matt. 5:18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura --- The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/9/2016 4:10:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Sounds like Jesus knew the old testament was unreasonable and immoral. Doesn't that raise some troubling implications?

You cant say it was Jesus' death that changed things because he made those statements before his death.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 4:19:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 1:54:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 1:06:58 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)

"It is finished"

Yes, his suffering was over and his life was finished. So what?

You clearly didn't read any other scriptures in John 19 (such as verse 28 which strongly suggests that all was accomplished when he died, and the fact that he said "it is finished").

Have the Earth and heavens passed away? No.

True, but the scripture makes no sense from the start. The first time he says "until" (I.e. Until the heavens and earth pass away/disappear), such an event as that is biblically impossible because the bible also says the earth will last forever.

On the other hand, he also says "until" a second time in relation to everything being accomplished, which he did in John 19, so I don't know...

Had all been accomplished? Hardly.

Well he said it was in John 19:28

Didn't Jesus have to come back in the Second Coming? Hasn't happened.

Not necessarily. Jesus had already said and knew that all had been finished, which is clearly said in John 19. The second coming wasn't part of his earthly fulfilment, I guess.

All Jesus achieved was an abrupt death leaving his followers perplexed at the unfulfilled promises he had made.

Well, no. Jesus did come to earth to fulfill prophesy (which he didn't, but we'll roll with it) and gave his life as a ransom for our sins (biblically speaking), so no, I don't agree with you.

Matthew 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter[e] or one tiny pen stroke[f] shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Until all things are accomplished". John 19 indicates this happened after Jesus death.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (Matt. 5:18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura --- The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

Then in that case, rape victims should marry their rapists, people should not wear clothing of more than one type of material, mules are unclean, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned etc etc etc.

No, not bloody likely. Didn't Jesus break the law when he saved Mary Magdalene? She technically should have been stoned. Even Paul, whom Jesus directed, even said that circumcision (which was required by law) was no longer required. What gives? Either a contradiction, or Jesus was speaking metaphorically.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/9/2016 4:20:34 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

Damn, and there was this one time I was alone with Angelina Jolie. (;
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/9/2016 4:24:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 4:20:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

Damn, and there was this one time I was alone with Angelina Jolie. (;

Angelina Jolie? But why though? You could've...erm...been with someone much hotter like Kate Upton or Katy Perry...

Oh well, each to his own I guess :D
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/9/2016 4:37:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 4:24:19 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 4:20:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

Damn, and there was this one time I was alone with Angelina Jolie. (;

Angelina Jolie? But why though? You could've...erm...been with someone much hotter like Kate Upton or Katy Perry...

True, but I was never alone with either one of them.

Oh well, each to his own I guess :D
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
rextr05
Posts: 213
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3/9/2016 8:48:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 4:19:54 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 1:54:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 1:06:58 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)

"It is finished"

Yes, his suffering was over and his life was finished. So what?

You clearly didn't read any other scriptures in John 19 (such as verse 28 which strongly suggests that all was accomplished when he died, and the fact that he said "it is finished").

Have the Earth and heavens passed away? No.

True, but the scripture makes no sense from the start. The first time he says "until" (I.e. Until the heavens and earth pass away/disappear), such an event as that is biblically impossible because the bible also says the earth will last forever.

On the other hand, he also says "until" a second time in relation to everything being accomplished, which he did in John 19, so I don't know...

Had all been accomplished? Hardly.

Well he said it was in John 19:28

Didn't Jesus have to come back in the Second Coming? Hasn't happened.

Not necessarily. Jesus had already said and knew that all had been finished, which is clearly said in John 19. The second coming wasn't part of his earthly fulfilment, I guess.

All Jesus achieved was an abrupt death leaving his followers perplexed at the unfulfilled promises he had made.

Well, no. Jesus did come to earth to fulfill prophesy (which he didn't, but we'll roll with it) and gave his life as a ransom for our sins (biblically speaking), so no, I don't agree with you.

Matthew 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter[e] or one tiny pen stroke[f] shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Until all things are accomplished". John 19 indicates this happened after Jesus death.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (Matt. 5:18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura --- The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

Then in that case, rape victims should marry their rapists, people should not wear clothing of more than one type of material, mules are unclean, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned etc etc etc.

No, not bloody likely. Didn't Jesus break the law when he saved Mary Magdalene? She technically should have been stoned. Even Paul, whom Jesus directed, even said that circumcision (which was required by law) was no longer required. What gives? Either a contradiction, or Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Thing is, Jesus said that He came to fulfill the scriptures (of the OT), not that they didn't apply anymore per-say, but that with Jesus knowing what He WOULD accomplish with His death. People did not have to live under sin & sacrifice to nullify said sin. This is considered the New Covenant. That's why He stated that all 613 or so of the old Mosaic laws were fulfilled under the 2 new commandments He told the Pharisees that one day. Matthew 22:37-40.

So, under the New Covenant, Jesus kept giving examples of how He taught people should live in love of God & neighbor, rather than only by observing the 613 laws. Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses. He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc).
Hebrews 9:15 pretty much explains how Jesus accomplished this with His death on the cross.
rextr05
Posts: 213
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3/9/2016 8:58:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

This passage is a deterrent for both the would be man & woman involved. The woman knows that she will be responsible to a lifelong commitment of marriage, or ridicule (if the man doesn't want to marry her) if she decides to have a one night stand. & the man would be on the hook for quite a bit of money or a life long commitment.

Back then, a sexual encounter was considered the culmination of 2 people ending with marriage upon the 1st sexual experience with each other. Either way, a sexual encounter was a serious step that could involve the consequence of lost money or a lifelong marriage ..... which neither one may have wanted, so they should not have an extramarital affair.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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3/9/2016 10:14:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The god of the old testament is clearly a sexist, racist, violent, cruel, murderous bully.

The fact he condones slavery and forces rape victims to marry their attackers (not to mention condemning innocent people to eternal burning in hell) supports my opinion about this mythical creation of the human mind.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/9/2016 11:43:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

If you had bothered reading verse 29 as well, and taken into account knowledge of the Israelite law and culture you would have answered your own question.

Deuteronomy 22.28,29
28 "If a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered, 29 the man who lay down with her must give the girl"s father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife. Because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.

Having to remain married to her for life is his punishment for the rape, and even more importantly from making her unmarriageable, since no self respecting Israelite would marry a non-virgin since it case doubt on her morality.

That being the case, the rapist had not only raped her, but removed any chance of her being married respectably, or of her family being given a dowry for her.

Of course if she had been a widow, that would have been a different matter entirely, and there were provisions for Brother-in-Law marriage in the law to ensure she would be cared for.

I sometimes wonder if any unscrupulous woman had ever taken advantage of that by seducing a man she wished to marry, then accusing him of rape and forcing him to marry her. No matter how good the law there is always someone willing to take advantage of it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/10/2016 1:36:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 11:43:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

If you had bothered reading verse 29 as well, and taken into account knowledge of the Israelite law and culture you would have answered your own question.

Deuteronomy 22.28,29
28 "If a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered, 29 the man who lay down with her must give the girl"s father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife. Because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.

Having to remain married to her for life is his punishment for the rape, and even more importantly from making her unmarriageable, since no self respecting Israelite would marry a non-virgin since it case doubt on her morality.

That being the case, the rapist had not only raped her, but removed any chance of her being married respectably, or of her family being given a dowry for her.

Of course if she had been a widow, that would have been a different matter entirely, and there were provisions for Brother-in-Law marriage in the law to ensure she would be cared for.

I sometimes wonder if any unscrupulous woman had ever taken advantage of that by seducing a man she wished to marry, then accusing him of rape and forcing him to marry her. No matter how good the law there is always someone willing to take advantage of it.

That indeed is a law any man could take advantage. It isn't him who is being punished, it is the woman whom he raped, who now has to live with a man she fears and loathes for the rest of her life.

Why would an all knowing, loving God punish the victim of a violent crime?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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3/10/2016 2:54:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 4:19:54 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 1:54:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 1:06:58 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/9/2016 10:28:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:54:01 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

The same OT says stone adulterers, don't eat a plethera of foods, don't work on the Sabbath or death (all in Leviticus) And....


Christ denounced all of the above in the...


New Testament which Christians actually go by. Anything else?

Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)

"It is finished"

Yes, his suffering was over and his life was finished. So what?

You clearly didn't read any other scriptures in John 19 (such as verse 28 which strongly suggests that all was accomplished when he died, and the fact that he said "it is finished").

No, you are reading into the text what simply isn't there. "It is finished", in context, is referring to his suffering and his life. There is nothing about having accomplished anything. Why would someone who had achieved what he wanted to achieve say:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Have the Earth and heavens passed away? No.

True, but the scripture makes no sense from the start. The first time he says "until" (I.e. Until the heavens and earth pass away/disappear), such an event as that is biblically impossible because the bible also says the earth will last forever.

Agreed, but the Bible often says contradictory things in different places by different authors. If your interpretation were correct, he should have said:

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until the moment of my death, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

On the other hand, he also says "until" a second time in relation to everything being accomplished, which he did in John 19, so I don't know...

Had all been accomplished? Hardly.

Well he said it was in John 19:28

No, he really didn't.

Didn't Jesus have to come back in the Second Coming? Hasn't happened.

Not necessarily. Jesus had already said and knew that all had been finished, which is clearly said in John 19. The second coming wasn't part of his earthly fulfilment, I guess.

So now it is "clear" when before you said it was "suggested"? He did not say "all has been accomplished". He said "it is finished". The "it" obviously refers to the suffering he has undergone and the ebbing away of his life.

All Jesus achieved was an abrupt death leaving his followers perplexed at the unfulfilled promises he had made.

Well, no. Jesus did come to earth to fulfill prophesy (which he didn't, but we'll roll with it) and gave his life as a ransom for our sins (biblically speaking), so no, I don't agree with you.

These so-called prophecy fulfillments were written after the fact. The stories of Jesus are lifted straight from OT scripture. Matthew was quite blatant about it.

Matthew 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter[e] or one tiny pen stroke[f] shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Until all things are accomplished". John 19 indicates this happened after Jesus death.

Now it's "indicates". :-)
I dispute this for the reasons I have given above.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (Matt. 5:18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura --- The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

Then in that case, rape victims should marry their rapists, people should not wear clothing of more than one type of material, mules are unclean, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned etc etc etc.

Is this an appeal to consequences? I'm just telling you what is written in the Bible. I don't say I agree with it.

No, not bloody likely. Didn't Jesus break the law when he saved Mary Magdalene? She technically should have been stoned. Even Paul, whom Jesus directed, even said that circumcision (which was required by law) was no longer required. What gives? Either a contradiction, or Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Jesus directed Paul? That's a joke, right? I'm not here to defend contradictions in the Bible. Please stay on-topic.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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3/10/2016 3:54:43 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 11:43:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2016 2:28:31 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Deuteronomy 22.28...

Discuss....

If you had bothered reading verse 29 as well, and taken into account knowledge of the Israelite law and culture you would have answered your own question.

Deuteronomy 22.28,29
28 "If a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered, 29 the man who lay down with her must give the girl"s father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife. Because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.

Having to remain married to her for life is his punishment for the rape, and even more importantly from making her unmarriageable, since no self respecting Israelite would marry a non-virgin since it case doubt on her morality.

That being the case, the rapist had not only raped her, but removed any chance of her being married respectably, or of her family being given a dowry for her.

Of course if she had been a widow, that would have been a different matter entirely, and there were provisions for Brother-in-Law marriage in the law to ensure she would be cared for.

I sometimes wonder if any unscrupulous woman had ever taken advantage of that by seducing a man she wished to marry, then accusing him of rape and forcing him to marry her. No matter how good the law there is always someone willing to take advantage of it.

Look at the disgusting filth of god justifying rape and the punishment of the victim. You people have no self respect and openly demonstrate your insane hatred of humanity especially women.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/10/2016 8:59:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Matthew 5:17

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus disagrees with you.

Wrong. Remember the end part of the scipture:

"...until all is accomplished"

What did Jesus say before he died? (Hint: John 19)

"It is finished"

Yes, his suffering was over and his life was finished. So what?

You clearly didn't read any other scriptures in John 19 (such as verse 28 which strongly suggests that all was accomplished when he died, and the fact that he said "it is finished").

No, you are reading into the text what simply isn't there. "It is finished", in context, is referring to his suffering and his life. There is nothing about having accomplished anything. Why would someone who had achieved what he wanted to achieve say:
.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Oh for f*ck sakes....

John 19:28

"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus" lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

For Christ sakes, it's really obvious.


Have the Earth and heavens passed away? No.

True, but the scripture makes no sense from the start. The first time he says "until" (I.e. Until the heavens and earth pass away/disappear), such an event as that is biblically impossible because the bible also says the earth will last forever.

Agreed, but the Bible often says contradictory things in different places by different authors. If your interpretation were correct, he should have said:

Finally, we agree on something.

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until the moment of my death, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Not necessarily. John 19 said that he realised "everything had been finished". Everything. Thus, partially fulfilling Mathew 5 (partially).

On the other hand, he also says "until" a second time in relation to everything being accomplished, which he did in John 19, so I don't know...

Had all been accomplished? Hardly.

Well he said it was in John 19:28

No, he really didn't.

Well you must have a severe case of dyslexia or something.


Didn't Jesus have to come back in the Second Coming? Hasn't happened.

Not necessarily. Jesus had already said and knew that all had been finished, which is clearly said in John 19. The second coming wasn't part of his earthly fulfilment, I guess.

So now it is "clear" when before you said it was "suggested"? He did not say "all has been accomplished". He said "it is finished". The "it" obviously refers to the suffering he has undergone and the ebbing away of his life.

Again, John 19:28 "knowing that everything had now been finished"


All Jesus achieved was an abrupt death leaving his followers perplexed at the unfulfilled promises he had made.

Well, no. Jesus did come to earth to fulfill prophesy (which he didn't, but we'll roll with it) and gave his life as a ransom for our sins (biblically speaking), so no, I don't agree with you.

These so-called prophecy fulfillments were written after the fact. The stories of Jesus are lifted straight from OT scripture. Matthew was quite blatant about it.

Ikr. Nonetheless, I'm speaking in regards to what Christians believe.

Matthew 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter[e] or one tiny pen stroke[f] shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Until all things are accomplished". John 19 indicates this happened after Jesus death.

Now it's "indicates". :-)
I dispute this for the reasons I have given above.

Which I disproved...clearly


Matthew Henry's Commentary:
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (Matt. 5:18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura --- The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

Then in that case, rape victims should marry their rapists, people should not wear clothing of more than one type of material, mules are unclean, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned etc etc etc.

Is this an appeal to consequences? I'm just telling you what is written in the Bible. I don't say I agree with it.

Then we're on the same page. That was not an appeal to consequence. I'm just saying that if we go by what your saying, Christians should do everything contained in OT, which they don't.

No, not bloody likely. Didn't Jesus break the law when he saved Mary Magdalene? She technically should have been stoned. Even Paul, whom Jesus directed, even said that circumcision (which was required by law) was no longer required. What gives? Either a contradiction, or Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Jesus directed Paul? That's a joke, right? I'm not here to defend contradictions in the Bible. Please stay on-topi

Then we are on the same page here. But I still maintain that the OT is no longer relevant to Christians due to the fulfilment of Mathew 5:17 in John 19:28. Nonetheless, I guess we can agree that the bible is again contradicting itself.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

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Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

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