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The end does justify the means

annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/9/2010 6:46:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To broad for agreement or disagreement. Elaborate please, preferably with a specific situation.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
JimProfit
Posts: 63
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11/9/2010 6:54:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:44:13 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
Anyone agrees with this? :D

Me. Always. Infact, I'd go as far as to say the means and ends justify themselves.

The entire moral compass of western society is skewed. It's way too much to go into. It's just suffice to say whatever they think is right, is probably wrong.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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11/9/2010 6:57:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:54:39 PM, JimProfit wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:44:13 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
Anyone agrees with this? :D

Me. Always. Infact, I'd go as far as to say the means and ends justify themselves.

The entire moral compass of western society is skewed. It's way too much to go into. It's just suffice to say whatever they think is right, is probably wrong.

Lol, care to debate utilitarianism?
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/9/2010 7:44:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:57:09 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:54:39 PM, JimProfit wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:44:13 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
Anyone agrees with this? :D

Me. Always. Infact, I'd go as far as to say the means and ends justify themselves.

The entire moral compass of western society is skewed. It's way too much to go into. It's just suffice to say whatever they think is right, is probably wrong.

Lol, care to debate utilitarianism?

lol indeed. which side would he be on? I want to debate this, but i'm busy with 4 APs :D
JimProfit
Posts: 63
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11/9/2010 7:48:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lol, care to debate utilitarianism?

I guess. lol. I don't know how that whole debate section of the forum works. I don't even think I can do it cause I didn't give them my cellphone number or something. Will have to check it.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/9/2010 7:50:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No means lead only to one end. All actions performed toward one goal have consequences that range far beyond the intended goal.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/9/2010 7:56:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:47:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
No. It doesn't.
yes it does. killing someone to save the lives of many is justified. say that guy is Stalin or the N.Korean dictator. no offense, Seriously No Offense. Rescuing a well respected president costing the lives of a platoon is justified because this would save more lives. Basically, if the end benefits many then the means to achieve it is justified.
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/9/2010 7:57:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:45:10 PM, Atheism wrote:
But what justifies the end?
Whether if many benefits from it aka if all social classes equally benefits from it.
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/9/2010 7:59:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:46:29 PM, annhasle wrote:
To broad for agreement or disagreement. Elaborate please, preferably with a specific situation.
Would you like to give a specific situation? Not a hypothetical one of course. I was thinking more o less if the end benefits all social classes equally then the end does justify the means because everyone benefits.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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11/9/2010 7:59:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 7:48:08 PM, JimProfit wrote:
Lol, care to debate utilitarianism?

I guess. lol. I don't know how that whole debate section of the forum works. I don't even think I can do it cause I didn't give them my cellphone number or something. Will have to check it.

You don't have to confirm your account to participate in a debate, you only have to do that to be able to vote. Go to the top of the page and click "Start a new debate" under the "Debates" tab.
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/9/2010 8:02:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 7:50:28 PM, Kleptin wrote:
No means lead only to one end. All actions performed toward one goal have consequences that range far beyond the intended goal.
Interesting. Care to elaborate a bit more please?
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/9/2010 8:05:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 7:59:16 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:46:29 PM, annhasle wrote:
To broad for agreement or disagreement. Elaborate please, preferably with a specific situation.

Would you like to give a specific situation? Not a hypothetical one of course. I was thinking more o less if the end benefits all social classes equally then the end does justify the means because everyone benefits.

So, as long as there mutual benefit among every person in the situation, the ends justify the means? A win-win situation on epic proportions? Man, I can't even think of a situation like that which isn't hypothetical...

How about we start with this one:

Is the torture of an inmate incarcerated at a prisoner of war camp justified by the gain of military intelligence? Simply put, is torture justified if we get good info out of it?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/9/2010 8:33:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:02:19 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 7:50:28 PM, Kleptin wrote:
No means lead only to one end. All actions performed toward one goal have consequences that range far beyond the intended goal.
Interesting. Care to elaborate a bit more please?

Are you asking questions to all these people, or putting words in their mouths?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/9/2010 8:45:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:02:19 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 7:50:28 PM, Kleptin wrote:
No means lead only to one end. All actions performed toward one goal have consequences that range far beyond the intended goal.
Interesting. Care to elaborate a bit more please?

When people say that the end justifies the means, they basically state that regardless of the actions taken, so long as the outcome is good, then it's pointless to talk about the morality of the actions.

The problem is that the actions lead to more than one consequence. Example: you performed action A in order to get result X, and result X was favorable. Someone criticizes you for doing action A. You then say "Hey, well it worked, didn't it?".

The problem arises when action A leads to results Y and Z, which have negative consequences.

If you chose to perform action B, you may have favorable outcomes for results X, Y, AND Z.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/9/2010 10:34:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:05:13 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/9/2010 7:59:16 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:46:29 PM, annhasle wrote:
To broad for agreement or disagreement. Elaborate please, preferably with a specific situation.

Would you like to give a specific situation? Not a hypothetical one of course. I was thinking more o less if the end benefits all social classes equally then the end does justify the means because everyone benefits.

So, as long as there mutual benefit among every person in the situation, the ends justify the means? A win-win situation on epic proportions? Man, I can't even think of a situation like that which isn't hypothetical...

How about we start with this one:

Is the torture of an inmate incarcerated at a prisoner of war camp justified by the gain of military intelligence? Simply put, is torture justified if we get good info out of it?

Yes.
However, torture is such an ineffective method of getting the truth.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/9/2010 10:42:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The whole 'It is justified to kill some to save many" makes very little sense.

The act of saving one's life does not balance out the immoral act of murdering another.

Most people have the capacity to save the lives of many. If we lived a simple life, used only the bare essentials to survive, and used our money (or time) to help those in dire risk of death (ex: those starving in Africa) we could save a lot more lives. However, this is not the case. Yet despite this, even though we allow others to die, it is not equivalent to the act of murder. And to put things in perspective, how many of you would actually be willing to risk your own life to save a few others? After all, your life is just as valuable as someone else.
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/9/2010 10:47:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 10:34:20 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/9/2010 8:05:13 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/9/2010 7:59:16 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 6:46:29 PM, annhasle wrote:
To broad for agreement or disagreement. Elaborate please, preferably with a specific situation.

Would you like to give a specific situation? Not a hypothetical one of course. I was thinking more o less if the end benefits all social classes equally then the end does justify the means because everyone benefits.

So, as long as there mutual benefit among every person in the situation, the ends justify the means? A win-win situation on epic proportions? Man, I can't even think of a situation like that which isn't hypothetical...

How about we start with this one:

Is the torture of an inmate incarcerated at a prisoner of war camp justified by the gain of military intelligence? Simply put, is torture justified if we get good info out of it?

Yes.
However, torture is such an ineffective method of getting the truth.

No pain, no gain. :)

Is there an effective way, though? Not really. Personally, I find torture to be the logical decision but I still wouldn't really care either way.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/10/2010 12:37:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 10:47:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/9/2010 10:34:20 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Yes.
However, torture is such an ineffective method of getting the truth.

No pain, no gain. :)

Is there an effective way, though? Not really. Personally, I find torture to be the logical decision but I still wouldn't really care either way.

The effective way:
Steal
Lie
Cheat
???
Profit
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Sniperjake1994
Posts: 73
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11/10/2010 5:04:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 8:45:54 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/9/2010 8:02:19 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
At 11/9/2010 7:50:28 PM, Kleptin wrote:
No means lead only to one end. All actions performed toward one goal have consequences that range far beyond the intended goal.
Interesting. Care to elaborate a bit more please?

When people say that the end justifies the means, they basically state that regardless of the actions taken, so long as the outcome is good, then it's pointless to talk about the morality of the actions.

The problem is that the actions lead to more than one consequence. Example: you performed action A in order to get result X, and result X was favorable. Someone criticizes you for doing action A. You then say "Hey, well it worked, didn't it?".

The problem arises when action A leads to results Y and Z, which have negative consequences.

If you chose to perform action B, you may have favorable outcomes for results X, Y, AND Z.

I see, but if action A resulted in favorable result X then doesn't the end justify the means?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/10/2010 5:50:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/10/2010 5:04:18 PM, Sniperjake1994 wrote:
I see, but if action A resulted in favorable result X then doesn't the end justify the means?

For result X.

Results Y and Z, which also stem from action A, are unfavorable results.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
JimProfit
Posts: 63
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11/10/2010 8:02:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You don't have to confirm your account to participate in a debate, you only have to do that to be able to vote. Go to the top of the page and click "Start a new debate" under the "Debates" tab.

Oh, lol. Thanks for the info. Also Neil Kavuto is awesome.