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Are There Two Contradictory Creation Account?

DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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3/12/2016 5:20:08 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

Indeterminate period of time? Doesn't the Bible state specifically that a day represents a morning and an evening, just like a day is represented now?

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/12/2016 6:21:06 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

No, there is only one creation account, and that s in Genesis Chapter 1.

Genesis 2 is not an account of creation. It is the account of Jehovah introducing Adam to all that he was to care for. Something which, obviously, could only be done after he had been created.


The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

That is correct, scripture gives us no idea whatever of the length of each "day" each "Definite but unspecified period of time".

It s also worth noting that the "days" do not start until after the universe, including the earth, had been created, and that from verse 2 onwards, the account appears to be written as if by an observer on the planet surface.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Yes, apparently the time when Planetary scientists claim there was too much dust in the atmosphere for light to reach the earth, and then the dust was settled. This would be very similar to the way light is obscured during serious volcanic eruptions which fill the atmosphere with ash, and probably the same cause.


Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Up to that point the earth was completely covered with water, and there was no dry land. The waters "above the expanse" were the same waters that were brought down to the earth agan to cause the flood.

NASA has even reported that there was almost certainly a gas (water vapour?) layer high in the atmosphere protecting the earth from "cosmic radiation" which according to an article in their Astrobio Magazine is slowly being replaced (CO2?).


Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

By this time the clouds had also dissipated.

Ah someone who understands how verse 14 was mistranslated, good.


Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31).

It is worth noting that all the water brought onto the earth to cause the global flood is still here, and it is safe to assume that the weight of teh water being brought down is what caused the tectonic plates to split and tilt, thus raising the mountains and bringing land above the water.

This would also explain the fact that the original single continent (known in modern times as Pangea) broke up and gave rise to our current crop if continents, which started after the flood (Genesis 10:25-26), and which is still happening, albeit very slowly, today.

No doubt the much slower movement of the tectonic plates today is caused by the increasing friction as the one plate edge subducts further and further under the other, though after the initial surge that would also have been reduced slightly by the melting of the edges dipping into the molten core.

That same varying level of friction is also the cause of subduction quakes such as the ones that cause the Indonesian and Japanese Tsunami disasters this century, as the tectonic plates jam and then free in a rush under the build up of pressure.

Yes, the Biblical accounts fit the known facts, as long as you accept that humans have no demonstrably reliable way of measuring time pre-history, which is absolutely true, since we do not know what effect the removal of the protective layer around the earth would have had on radiation levels, and are therefore completely unable to compensate for it.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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3/12/2016 6:35:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Christian and or JW
Religion forum posting
Rule #4 1 must keep a bible in arms length distance. So 1 can state facts and pump out scripture verses like they already know it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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3/12/2016 6:36:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:21:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

No, there is only one creation account, and that s in Genesis Chapter 1.

Genesis 2 is not an account of creation. It is the account of Jehovah introducing Adam to all that he was to care for. Something which, obviously, could only be done after he had been created.


The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

That is correct, scripture gives us no idea whatever of the length of each "day" each "Definite but unspecified period of time".

It s also worth noting that the "days" do not start until after the universe, including the earth, had been created, and that from verse 2 onwards, the account appears to be written as if by an observer on the planet surface.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Yes, apparently the time when Planetary scientists claim there was too much dust in the atmosphere for light to reach the earth, and then the dust was settled. This would be very similar to the way light is obscured during serious volcanic eruptions which fill the atmosphere with ash, and probably the same cause.


Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Up to that point the earth was completely covered with water, and there was no dry land. The waters "above the expanse" were the same waters that were brought down to the earth agan to cause the flood.

NASA has even reported that there was almost certainly a gas (water vapour?) layer high in the atmosphere protecting the earth from "cosmic radiation" which according to an article in their Astrobio Magazine is slowly being replaced (CO2?).


Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

By this time the clouds had also dissipated.

Ah someone who understands how verse 14 was mistranslated, good.


Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31).

It is worth noting that all the water brought onto the earth to cause the global flood is still here, and it is safe to assume that the weight of teh water being brought down is what caused the tectonic plates to split and tilt, thus raising the mountains and bringing land above the water.

This would also explain the fact that the original single continent (known in modern times as Pangea) broke up and gave rise to our current crop if continents, which started after the flood (Genesis 10:25-26), and which is still happening, albeit very slowly, today.

No doubt the much slower movement of the tectonic plates today is caused by the increasing friction as the one plate edge subducts further and further under the other, though after the initial surge that would also have been reduced slightly by the melting of the edges dipping into the molten core.

That same varying level of friction is also the cause of subduction quakes such as the ones that cause the Indonesian and Japanese Tsunami disasters this century, as the tectonic plates jam and then free in a rush under the build up of pressure.

Yes, the Biblical accounts fit the known facts, as long as you accept that humans have no demonstrably reliable way of measuring time pre-history, which is absolutely true, since we do not know what effect the removal of the protective layer around the earth would have had on radiation levels, and are therefore completely unable to compensate for it.

Notice how easily MCB's imagination just fills in all the blanks as he would want to see them.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/12/2016 6:48:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:36:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:21:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

No, there is only one creation account, and that s in Genesis Chapter 1.

Genesis 2 is not an account of creation. It is the account of Jehovah introducing Adam to all that he was to care for. Something which, obviously, could only be done after he had been created.


The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

That is correct, scripture gives us no idea whatever of the length of each "day" each "Definite but unspecified period of time".

It s also worth noting that the "days" do not start until after the universe, including the earth, had been created, and that from verse 2 onwards, the account appears to be written as if by an observer on the planet surface.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Yes, apparently the time when Planetary scientists claim there was too much dust in the atmosphere for light to reach the earth, and then the dust was settled. This would be very similar to the way light is obscured during serious volcanic eruptions which fill the atmosphere with ash, and probably the same cause.


Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Up to that point the earth was completely covered with water, and there was no dry land. The waters "above the expanse" were the same waters that were brought down to the earth agan to cause the flood.

NASA has even reported that there was almost certainly a gas (water vapour?) layer high in the atmosphere protecting the earth from "cosmic radiation" which according to an article in their Astrobio Magazine is slowly being replaced (CO2?).


Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

By this time the clouds had also dissipated.

Ah someone who understands how verse 14 was mistranslated, good.


Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31).

It is worth noting that all the water brought onto the earth to cause the global flood is still here, and it is safe to assume that the weight of teh water being brought down is what caused the tectonic plates to split and tilt, thus raising the mountains and bringing land above the water.

This would also explain the fact that the original single continent (known in modern times as Pangea) broke up and gave rise to our current crop if continents, which started after the flood (Genesis 10:25-26), and which is still happening, albeit very slowly, today.

No doubt the much slower movement of the tectonic plates today is caused by the increasing friction as the one plate edge subducts further and further under the other, though after the initial surge that would also have been reduced slightly by the melting of the edges dipping into the molten core.

That same varying level of friction is also the cause of subduction quakes such as the ones that cause the Indonesian and Japanese Tsunami disasters this century, as the tectonic plates jam and then free in a rush under the build up of pressure.

Yes, the Biblical accounts fit the known facts, as long as you accept that humans have no demonstrably reliable way of measuring time pre-history, which is absolutely true, since we do not know what effect the removal of the protective layer around the earth would have had on radiation levels, and are therefore completely unable to compensate for it.

Notice how easily MCB's imagination just fills in all the blanks as he would want to see them.

Imagination has nothing to do with it.

I wish I had an imagination, I always fancied being an author but lack of imagination is my major obstacle there.

I do however notice how fast you run from the truth.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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3/12/2016 6:50:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:48:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:36:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:21:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

No, there is only one creation account, and that s in Genesis Chapter 1.

Genesis 2 is not an account of creation. It is the account of Jehovah introducing Adam to all that he was to care for. Something which, obviously, could only be done after he had been created.


The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

That is correct, scripture gives us no idea whatever of the length of each "day" each "Definite but unspecified period of time".

It s also worth noting that the "days" do not start until after the universe, including the earth, had been created, and that from verse 2 onwards, the account appears to be written as if by an observer on the planet surface.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Yes, apparently the time when Planetary scientists claim there was too much dust in the atmosphere for light to reach the earth, and then the dust was settled. This would be very similar to the way light is obscured during serious volcanic eruptions which fill the atmosphere with ash, and probably the same cause.


Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Up to that point the earth was completely covered with water, and there was no dry land. The waters "above the expanse" were the same waters that were brought down to the earth agan to cause the flood.

NASA has even reported that there was almost certainly a gas (water vapour?) layer high in the atmosphere protecting the earth from "cosmic radiation" which according to an article in their Astrobio Magazine is slowly being replaced (CO2?).


Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

By this time the clouds had also dissipated.

Ah someone who understands how verse 14 was mistranslated, good.


Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31).

It is worth noting that all the water brought onto the earth to cause the global flood is still here, and it is safe to assume that the weight of teh water being brought down is what caused the tectonic plates to split and tilt, thus raising the mountains and bringing land above the water.

This would also explain the fact that the original single continent (known in modern times as Pangea) broke up and gave rise to our current crop if continents, which started after the flood (Genesis 10:25-26), and which is still happening, albeit very slowly, today.

No doubt the much slower movement of the tectonic plates today is caused by the increasing friction as the one plate edge subducts further and further under the other, though after the initial surge that would also have been reduced slightly by the melting of the edges dipping into the molten core.

That same varying level of friction is also the cause of subduction quakes such as the ones that cause the Indonesian and Japanese Tsunami disasters this century, as the tectonic plates jam and then free in a rush under the build up of pressure.

Yes, the Biblical accounts fit the known facts, as long as you accept that humans have no demonstrably reliable way of measuring time pre-history, which is absolutely true, since we do not know what effect the removal of the protective layer around the earth would have had on radiation levels, and are therefore completely unable to compensate for it.

Notice how easily MCB's imagination just fills in all the blanks as he would want to see them.

Imagination has nothing to do with it.

Well, I didn't want to use the terms, 'delusion and mental disorder' which are more appropriate terms to describe your posts.

I wish I had an imagination, I always fancied being an author but lack of imagination is my major obstacle there.

I do however notice how fast you run from the truth.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/12/2016 6:51:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:35:18 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
Christian and or JW
Religion forum posting
Rule #4 1 must keep a bible in arms length distance. So 1 can state facts and pump out scripture verses like they already know it.

Oh no, for a true Christian (or a JW), the Bible must always be in our minds and hearts.
After all it is the very root of our faith.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/12/2016 6:53:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:50:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:48:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Imagination has nothing to do with it.

Well, I didn't want to use the terms, 'delusion and mental disorder' which are more appropriate terms to describe your posts.

They don't apply either.

Unlike you I do not choose to delude myself because I am terrified of the truth, or what is inevitably to come.


I wish I had an imagination, I always fancied being an author but lack of imagination is my major obstacle there.

I do however notice how fast you run from the truth.

I see that at least you are honest enough not to bother denying the obvious fact as highlighted above.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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3/12/2016 6:54:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:53:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:50:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:48:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Imagination has nothing to do with it.

Well, I didn't want to use the terms, 'delusion and mental disorder' which are more appropriate terms to describe your posts.

They don't apply either.

Oops, you're right, I forgot the term 'insane' as well, thanks for reminding me.

Unlike you I do not choose to delude myself because I am terrified of the truth, or what is inevitably to come.


I wish I had an imagination, I always fancied being an author but lack of imagination is my major obstacle there.

I do however notice how fast you run from the truth.

I see that at least you are honest enough not to bother denying the obvious fact as highlighted above.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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3/12/2016 7:00:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:54:45 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:53:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:50:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:48:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Imagination has nothing to do with it.

Well, I didn't want to use the terms, 'delusion and mental disorder' which are more appropriate terms to describe your posts.

They don't apply either.

Oops, you're right, I forgot the term 'insane' as well, thanks for reminding me.

Unlike you I do not choose to delude myself because I am terrified of the truth, or what is inevitably to come.


I wish I had an imagination, I always fancied being an author but lack of imagination is my major obstacle there.

I do however notice how fast you run from the truth.

I see that at least you are honest enough not to bother denying the obvious fact as highlighted above.

Here you go again - the descent into insulting anyone who dares to disagree with you, how predictable you're becoming.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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3/12/2016 7:01:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Skeptic Complaint: The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.
The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3) and the sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. (Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...)

There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn"t say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)

Are you telling us you find it to be contradictory or are you asking others if they find it to be contradictory?

I'm not clear on what exactly your claiming or asking here...

Harry.
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 7:46:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:20:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Indeterminate period of time? Doesn't the Bible state specifically that a day represents a morning and an evening, just like a day is represented now?

I don't want to answer that question in great detail because it is coming up soon if I continue the look the Bible starting at Genesis 1, but I will say that morning and evening only constitute half a day, not a full day, and those terms are used in a metaphoric sense. The evening was the period of time in which the angels who were excitedly watching, would not be able to tell what God was up to at that point in the creation, and then the morning would come and reveal to them due to the progress being made, what was going on.

I'll explain that all in a future post, hopefully.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DanneJeRusse
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3/12/2016 7:55:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:46:41 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/12/2016 5:20:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Indeterminate period of time? Doesn't the Bible state specifically that a day represents a morning and an evening, just like a day is represented now?

I don't want to answer that question in great detail because it is coming up soon if I continue the look the Bible starting at Genesis 1, but I will say that morning and evening only constitute half a day, not a full day, and those terms are used in a metaphoric sense. The evening was the period of time in which the angels who were excitedly watching, would not be able to tell what God was up to at that point in the creation, and then the morning would come and reveal to them due to the progress being made, what was going on.

I'll explain that all in a future post, hopefully.

And, please explain the underlined claim, thanks. What is the other half of a day?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 8:11:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:21:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
No, there is only one creation account, and that s in Genesis Chapter 1.

Genesis 2 is not an account of creation. It is the account of Jehovah introducing Adam to all that he was to care for. Something which, obviously, could only be done after he had been created.

I've never heard it presented like that. The Watchtower uses the term 2 accounts, a first and a second, but what you are saying is basically another way to say the same thing.

That is correct, scripture gives us no idea whatever of the length of each "day" each "Definite but unspecified period of time".

It s also worth noting that the "days" do not start until after the universe, including the earth, had been created, and that from verse 2 onwards, the account appears to be written as if by an observer on the planet surface.

Okay. Lets not rush that. Its coming up in a future thread, hopefully. :)

Yes, apparently the time when Planetary scientists claim there was too much dust in the atmosphere for light to reach the earth, and then the dust was settled. This would be very similar to the way light is obscured during serious volcanic eruptions which fill the atmosphere with ash, and probably the same cause.

Yes. Again, though, for a future thread. :)

Slow down, now . . .
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Deb-8-A-Bull
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3/12/2016 8:15:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
The stages of posting on this forum.
It starts good .
Then it messes with your head that they can't see god is not real
And the final stage is asking myself when are they going to say they are just kidding. Got ya .

I'm 95% positive the Christians laugh at me , and know full well he doesn't exist . It's a truly sick joke they are playing on me. IT HAS TO BE
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 8:22:11 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:01:32 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
I'm not clear on what exactly your claiming or asking here...

Harry.

I'm saying it isn't contradictory. Its like, if I tell someone I'm going to the store to get a coat and I tell someone else I got my coat at the store, those aren't contradictory they are different orders of the same event.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 8:51:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:55:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
And, please explain the underlined claim, thanks. What is the other half of a day?

The Hebrews, Phoenicians, Athenians, and Numidians all considered a day from evening to evening. The Babylonians from sunrise to sunrise and the Romans and Egyptians from midnight to midnight. A day consisted of an evening, morning, afternoon and night. Although the Bible marks periods throughout the day as the morning twilight or morning darkness, just before the day"s beginning; the rising of the sun or dawning; the morning; noon or midday; the time of the sunset, marking the day"s close; and the evening twilight or evening darkness.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Emmarie
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3/12/2016 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Ok, Dave, I disagree with you on the subject, and let me explain why.

The story of creation in Genesis 1 differs too significantly from what you refer to as the topical evidence that begins in Chapter 2. Chapter 2 even goes a so far as giving him the title of LORD in Genesis 2:4, but in Genesis 1 he was simply referred to as - God.

God's instructions to mankind in Genesis 1 varies significantly, from the LORD's dealings with man in Chapter2.

Genesis 1:28-29 (capitalization - my emphasis)
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be FRUITFUL and MULTIPLY, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you EVERY herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and EVERY TREE, in the which is the FRUIT OF A TREE YIELDING SEED; to you it shall be for meat.

You can see that I capitalized EVERY TREE - and it's because these were God's instructions to humans, during the sixth day in which they were created. (day meaning as span of time, for there were not actual days until the earth revolved around the sun, so to speculate that a day means a literal day, is to speculate that the earth and sun were always here, and the story of creation is to explain the order)

There is a conclusion to day 6 which was that God saw that it was VERY GOOD.

Genesis 2:1-3 GOD RESTED
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ok, so I'm going to interject my personal interpretation at this point. I believe that while God was resting, the LORD God manipulated God's creation, and created Humans in the Garden of Eden. I don't think that the LORD God meant that there were no people on the earth, (no man to till the earth) I think he meant that no humans could be manipulated into taming the plants that they freely ate from.

Genesis 2:4

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

I think the LORD god - took credit for what God had done, while God was resting. The LORD god's personality seems contrary to the personality of the Original Creator God.

I stumped Priests in Catholic School when I asked these kinds of questions in 4th grade and they dreaded calling on me - lol.

Also, in Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created manKIND in his own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE AND FEMALE created he them.

The use of the word Our, suggests that there is more than one creative being during the time of God's creation.
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 10:46:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 6:36:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Notice how easily MCB's imagination just fills in all the blanks as he would want to see them.

Imagination has nothing to do with it. He knows his Bible.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Emmarie
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3/12/2016 10:51:08 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:01:32 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:


I'm not clear on what exactly your claiming or asking here...

Harry.

More specifically it's referring to this - this was my interpretation and I copied and pasted my post.
"The story of creation in Genesis 1 differs too significantly from what you refer to as the topical evidence that begins in Chapter 2. Chapter 2 even goes a so far as giving him the title of LORD in Genesis 2:4, but in Genesis 1 he was simply referred to as - God.

God's instructions to mankind in Genesis 1 varies significantly, from the LORD's dealings with man in Chapter2.

Genesis 1:28-29 (capitalization - my emphasis)
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be FRUITFUL and MULTIPLY, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you EVERY herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and EVERY TREE, in the which is the FRUIT OF A TREE YIELDING SEED; to you it shall be for meat.

You can see that I capitalized EVERY TREE - and it's because these were God's instructions to humans, during the sixth day in which they were created. (day meaning as span of time, for there were not actual days until the earth revolved around the sun, so to speculate that a day means a literal day, is to speculate that the earth and sun were always here, and the story of creation is to explain the order)

There is a conclusion to day 6 which was that God saw that it was VERY GOOD.

Genesis 2:1-3 GOD RESTED
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ok, so I'm going to interject my personal interpretation at this point. I believe that while God was resting, the LORD God manipulated God's creation, and created Humans in the Garden of Eden. I don't think that the LORD God meant that there were no people on the earth, (no man to till the earth) I think he meant that no humans could be manipulated into taming the plants that they freely ate from.

Genesis 2:4

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

I think the LORD god - took credit for what God had done, while God was resting. The LORD god's personality seems contrary to the personality of the Original Creator God.

I stumped Priests in Catholic School when I asked these kinds of questions in 4th grade and they dreaded calling on me - lol.

Also, in Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created manKIND in his own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE AND FEMALE created he them.

The use of the word Our, suggests that there is more than one creative being during the time of God's creation."
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 11:33:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 8:56:02 PM, Emmarie wrote:
Ok, Dave, I disagree with you on the subject, and let me explain why.

The story of creation in Genesis 1 differs too significantly from what you refer to as the topical evidence that begins in Chapter 2. Chapter 2 even goes a so far as giving him the title of LORD in Genesis 2:4, but in Genesis 1 he was simply referred to as - God.

God's instructions to mankind in Genesis 1 varies significantly, from the LORD's dealings with man in Chapter2.

Sorry, I didn't see this post until just now.

The first thing that you have to consider is that the words Lord, and God are just titles given to persons, things, or idols.

God means mighty or venerated. In other words if a stick was thought to bring the warmth and protection one needed, that stick, or wood, then wood carvings would become a God to the person with the stick. So at Psalm 8:5 The angels are referred to as Gods. See Hebrews 2:6-8. At Psalm 82:1, 6 the Judges of Israel, some of whom were vile unrighteous people, are called gods. See John 10:34, 35.

The term Lord means someone who is given authority. For example, a Landlord. God grants his son great authority and of course He himself has great authority. But other men may have authority as well. Often respected men would by addressed by the title "my Lord," out of a respect of their authority.

When, in older Bible translations or versions you see the term LORD in all uppercase or capital letters, that is where the name of God has been removed by the Sopherim. This happened about the time of Jesus. The Sopherim were copyists, the men who had the painstakingly tedious task of copying books of the Bible letter by letter. Over time they developed a superstitious habit of removing the name so that the common people wouldn't use it in vain.

So Genesis 2:4 in the Darby Bible reads: "These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,"

The American Standard Version reads "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

One thing to keep in mind with Bibles is that there are two different types. The Translation and the Version. A translation or literal translation is just that. They supposedly translate strictly from word to word, whereas a version incorporates a sort of poetic licence. So a translation will give you the strict meaning as best as possible and a version will give a less strict adherence to the words being translated and instead try and give colorful version of what is meant.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
bulproof
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3/12/2016 11:35:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 10:46:36 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/12/2016 6:36:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Notice how easily MCB's imagination just fills in all the blanks as he would want to see them.

Imagination has nothing to do with it. He knows his Bible.
Yeah and it's only his bible, he rewrites it whenever he feels the need.
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 11:54:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 10:51:08 PM, Emmarie wrote:
I stumped Priests in Catholic School when I asked these kinds of questions in 4th grade and they dreaded calling on me - lol.

Good for you ;)

I didn't respond to some of this because you kind of jump ahead. What I want to do is address the Skeptic's Annotated Bible point by point, so we will catch up with you in a future thread. Hopefully, I always add.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
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3/12/2016 11:56:50 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 11:35:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
Yeah and it's only his bible, he rewrites it whenever he feels the need.

Not that there would be anything wrong with that as long as he stuck to the accurate meaning. However, he wouldn't be able to do that with me, nor would I be able to do that with him, without disagreement.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
12_13
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3/13/2016 8:28:01 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

If we are literal, there is not 2 creation stories. Genesis 1 tells about creation and is creation story. Genesis 2 tells about forming things and is formation story. In Genesis 1 the creator is Elohim. In Genesis 2 the one who forms is Yahweh. Totally different stories, if we are honest and scriptural.

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:7-8

And the scientific order can easily be wrong and there is no good reason to believe it to be more correct than the Bible.
DavidHenson
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3/13/2016 9:52:26 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 8:28:01 AM, 12_13 wrote:
If we are literal, there is not 2 creation stories. Genesis 1 tells about creation and is creation story. Genesis 2 tells about forming things and is formation story. In Genesis 1 the creator is Elohim. In Genesis 2 the one who forms is Yahweh. Totally different stories, if we are honest and scriptural.

Regarding Elohim and Yahweh. Yahweh is the personal name of God, and Elohim is a variation of the Hebrew word El, which means god. The Hebrew Elohim is applied to men, to angels, and to false gods, such as Dagon (1 Samuel 5:7) and, and the goddess Ashtoreth (1 Kings 11:5). Elohim is plural and may denote gods, or it may also be used in application to a single god as a plural of majesty.

As for the creation and the formation claim, I don't agree with that. Could you tell me why you think there is a difference, and what signifies it. For example something in the original language. What's the difference between create and form?

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:7-8

And the scientific order can easily be wrong and there is no good reason to believe it to be more correct than the Bible.

Excellent point. Very true.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
bulproof
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3/13/2016 9:57:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 8:28:01 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:04:55 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
There are two creation accounts, as it was common for texts of that time period to repeat themselves. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

If we are literal, there is not 2 creation stories. Genesis 1 tells about creation and is creation story. Genesis 2 tells about forming things and is formation story. In Genesis 1 the creator is Elohim. In Genesis 2 the one who forms is Yahweh. Totally different stories, if we are honest and scriptural.

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:7-8

And the scientific order can easily be wrong and there is no good reason to believe it to be more correct than the Bible.
There is almost nothing in the bible that is true and if it is true it is merely coincidental.
Science is designed to find truth the bible is designed to deceive.