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If non-reproductive sex is bad...

Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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3/15/2016 6:47:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

ME: It's bad for me, I get too puffed if I have to do all the work. and I am not like bullo, the decomposer of Hair Kiskibar who all that the matter in hand.
tarantula
Posts: 858
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3/15/2016 10:34:32 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

What a crazy philosophy, producing too many children is BAD, the world is over populated.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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3/15/2016 10:49:23 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

If God had wanted humans to have sex only for procreation then he would have designed women to be in heat just one short time each year and for men to only respond to that (like many other animal species). He didn't, therefore he wants you to have sex whenever. It's obvious. He even gave us arms and hands to allow for auto-stimulation when a partner is not available. The only conclusion is that God is a randy devil since we are made in his image!
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/15/2016 2:37:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

Somehow you always seem to just miss the bulls eye, so let me see if I can clear things up a bit.

First of all and most relevant (which you already know), God created man for the woman and the woman for the man, in other words they go together.
They go together for more than one reason or purpose Jovian. There is a reason why the opposite sex is considered "the other half" because they absolutely are in many ways. They fit together like a puzzle for purposes of the flesh, the mind and the soul. The sexual unity of people are involved in more than just having sex, there are emotional, psychological and spiritual components as well, and these also were meant to fit together as well as the physical.
This is why the scriptures teach that a man and a women become "one" and this is true in many ways as I can testify the more years that pass by I'm with my wife the more we become "one", our physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual elements have begun to converge.
Yes God created sex to be fun and pleasurable, but also as a force of unity between the people involved acting as a bond to keep the man from leaving the women and vice versa, without that unity or gravitational force there wouldn't be much motivation. We all know the psychological and emotional components of having sexual relations with another person, so there are more than always other factors involved once sex has taken place, to deny that would be ridiculous.
Just as God created man to be with the woman in a material sense, also emotional, psychological and a spiritual sense.
There are things that a man could never give another man or a women could never give another women. There are emotional, psychological things that a man could never give a child that a woman could or a women could ever instill what a man could.
In other words there is more than just a single dynamic here, there are many variables and components other than just having fun under the sheets.

So here we have the basic components and purpose of sexual relations between people and what it has an impact on....
Reproduction
A model-for the children
Physical pleasure
Emotional
Psychological
Spiritual
Unity/bond
Intimacy

God created sex to have an impact on all these components not just for physical gratification and that is why purpose and context has more value and emphasis in Theism than just getting off at someone else's expense. Because of the underlying effects sex does indeed have on individuals it is something we consider very important and not just all fun and games.
We can see were just fun and games only lead....as well as just self gratification only.... leads to abortions, STD's, suicide, depression, perversion, raping, unhappy parents and all kinds of discord ect ect.
"Non productive" sex is not bad in and of itself, but you cannot eliminate all the other elements involved in it, that is where you begin to stray. There is more than just a singular purpose in the physical unity (sex) of souls.

If you are someone who actually thinks sex is related to physical pleasure only you have neither had no sex at all, had too much and are now numbed out or have not had none in a while. When was the last time you could just go out and "boink" someone and not get emotionally or psychologically involved? and that is because it's not just a physical thing, there are many components involved and all should be considered and God meant that they all align together, not just one or the other.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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3/15/2016 2:45:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The Bible doesn't say anything about birth control. Though some ancient peoples did make some attempt at birth control, they were usually ineffective and the people of ancient Israel were not, as far as the Bible indicates, among those who practiced any of those methods.

The SAB gives 5 verses which have very little to do with birth control from any perspective that I can see but I will briefly discuss those verses trying to understand what reasoning may have inspired their having been listed as anything to do with birth control, and I will try and give a balanced Biblical perspective on what birth control means to the modern Christian.

Genesis 1:28 tells Adam and Eve to be fruitful, to multiply and replenish the earth. It is important to recognize that this was spoken to Adam and Eve, the first human man and wife. Had they not done what they were told, we wouldn't be here. Fortunately for us, God's intention for the earth to be inhabited by people came to pass as Adam and Eve were willing to do this.

At Genesis 9:1, 7 God gives the same command to Noah and his family for the same reason.

Genesis 38:9-10 gives the account of Onan. After his brother Er had died his father Judah asked him to perform brother-in-law marriage with Tamar. Also known as levirate marriage, this custom involved the deceased man's brother to have offspring with the childless widow, whom would carry on the family line and hereditary possession. She should not marry outside the family of her deceased husband. (Deuteronomy 25:5-6)

Onan took pleasure in Tamar but failed to fulfill his obligation, and that is why he was put to death. Not for birth control.

It was not until the second century C.E. that professed Christians began to adopt the Stoic rule which dictated that the sole lawful purpose of marital intercourse was procreation. This was a philosophical rather than a Biblical reasoning, and through the ages various Catholic theologians expanded upon it, the result of which was that sexual pleasure between married couples except for the purpose of procreation was considered sinful and immoral. Not until the 13th century did Pope Gregory IX enact the first legislation by a pope against contraception. Again, the Bible doesn't teach this. Proverbs 5:18-19 says; "to be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth . . . Let her own breasts intoxicate you at all times. With her love may you be in an ecstasy constantly."

To Adam and to Noah's family God said to be fruitful and multiply, to fill the earth, but this was not repeated to Christians, and in fact, there is only three things that the true Christian need consider when faced with the issue of birth control.

1. Sexual pleasure between married couples is not a sin. (Proverbs 5:18-19)

2. A very important point of consideration for contraception is to avoid abortive contraception. Most of them are non-abortive, make sure the one you use is. The choice of contraception should reflect a respect for the sanctity of life. (Exodus 21:22-23)

3. The Christian perspective on contraception should reflect the idea of personal choice, and therefore be careful not to judge others regarding the matter. (Romans 14:10-13)
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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3/15/2016 3:24:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:

2 More weeks!

...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window

No.

* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy

The vasectomy would be sinful. The sex thereafter no.

* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile

No.

* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

Yes.

I'll add to your list.

Any form of artificial birth control: Yes
NFP: Depending on justification sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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3/15/2016 9:30:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 3:24:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:

2 More weeks!

...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window

No.

Interesting answers. I need you to elaborate on this though. Given the opinion of "non-reproductive sex is bad", this must be bad. Outside a woman's fertile window, the chances of her becoming pregnant is virtually zero. There are good methods of calculating which days she will be fertile and not. The argument of "I didn't know about this method" would be flawed, just as well as saying "I never heard about this law" never could be an excuse for commiting a crime, despite how much unaware of said law you were.
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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3/15/2016 9:35:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Sex is not just for procreation. It is a gift to be enjoyed by a married couple for many different purposes from pleasure to protection, or intimate knowledge to procreation.

One well-known Marriage Psychologist put it this way:
"For human beings, sex isn't just to make babies. It is to join two humans in the most intimate union possible. I believe that sexual love freely shared in marriage is the most beautiful way God gave us to say, "I love you." (Beam).
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

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Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/15/2016 10:00:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

Who says it's bad. Are you having sex with a partner in your life? Does it feel bad? Do you like it?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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3/15/2016 11:01:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 10:00:52 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

Who says it's bad.

Those who argue against birth control + those who use the reproduction argument against homosexuality.

Are you having sex with a partner in your life? Does it feel bad? Do you like it?

Irrelevant since we're not discussing bad by the means of physical pleasure, but bad by defined as morally bad.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/16/2016 4:05:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 2:37:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

Of course I'm assuming you were going to trail the argument to homosexual preference? ("non-reproductive sex") My fault if that was not the case but that is what you are normally concerned with.... just wanted point out some things go beyond just the surface and there are more dynamics involved but sorry if I derailed....

* Sex deliberately performed outside of a woman's ovulating cycle/fertile window
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has deliberately made themselves infertile, like a vasectomy
* Sex after one of the persons in the couple has indeliberately become infertile
* Sex where the withdrawal method is used

Somehow you always seem to just miss the bulls eye, so let me see if I can clear things up a bit.

First of all and most relevant (which you already know), God created man for the woman and the woman for the man, in other words they go together.
They go together for more than one reason or purpose Jovian. There is a reason why the opposite sex is considered "the other half" because they absolutely are in many ways. They fit together like a puzzle for purposes of the flesh, the mind and the soul. The sexual unity of people are involved in more than just having sex, there are emotional, psychological and spiritual components as well, and these also were meant to fit together as well as the physical.
This is why the scriptures teach that a man and a women become "one" and this is true in many ways as I can testify the more years that pass by I'm with my wife the more we become "one", our physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual elements have begun to converge.
Yes God created sex to be fun and pleasurable, but also as a force of unity between the people involved acting as a bond to keep the man from leaving the women and vice versa, without that unity or gravitational force there wouldn't be much motivation. We all know the psychological and emotional components of having sexual relations with another person, so there are more than always other factors involved once sex has taken place, to deny that would be ridiculous.
Just as God created man to be with the woman in a material sense, also emotional, psychological and a spiritual sense.
There are things that a man could never give another man or a women could never give another women. There are emotional, psychological things that a man could never give a child that a woman could or a women could ever instill what a man could.
In other words there is more than just a single dynamic here, there are many variables and components other than just having fun under the sheets.

So here we have the basic components and purpose of sexual relations between people and what it has an impact on....
Reproduction
A model-for the children
Physical pleasure
Emotional
Psychological
Spiritual
Unity/bond
Intimacy

God created sex to have an impact on all these components not just for physical gratification and that is why purpose and context has more value and emphasis in Theism than just getting off at someone else's expense. Because of the underlying effects sex does indeed have on individuals it is something we consider very important and not just all fun and games.
We can see were just fun and games only lead....as well as just self gratification only.... leads to abortions, STD's, suicide, depression, perversion, raping, unhappy parents and all kinds of discord ect ect.
"Non productive" sex is not bad in and of itself, but you cannot eliminate all the other elements involved in it, that is where you begin to stray. There is more than just a singular purpose in the physical unity (sex) of souls.

If you are someone who actually thinks sex is related to physical pleasure only you have neither had no sex at all, had too much and are now numbed out or have not had none in a while. When was the last time you could just go out and "boink" someone and not get emotionally or psychologically involved? and that is because it's not just a physical thing, there are many components involved and all should be considered and God meant that they all align together, not just one or the other.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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3/17/2016 10:34:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 4:05:43 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2016 2:37:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/12/2016 7:34:21 PM, Jovian wrote:
...like the argument against birth control goes, would any of these sexes be bad/sinful too?

Of course I'm assuming you were going to trail the argument to homosexual preference? ("non-reproductive sex") My fault if that was not the case but that is what you are normally concerned with.... just wanted point out some things go beyond just the surface and there are more dynamics involved but sorry if I derailed....

Ah yeah I read your post and I saw you fixating on it. No problem. This is although so much more than the stance against homosexuality. Such as the stance against birth control. Having sex outside the woman's ovulation is birth control.