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Theists, what makes murder wrong?

Jovian
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3/13/2016 6:49:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Time after time, we atheists and agnostics are being questioned how we believe murder is wrong. The argument of those who question us is that murder has no reason to be wrong in atheism. We answer them all the time of answers like how it's about unfairly taking away someone's life for ever and make said person's family and friends have lifelong tragedies full of depression, anxiety, PTSD, and how you should be compassionate because you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to yourself or your family and friends.

This could of course be problematized, however let's move on.

If only religion could be a true buffer against murder happening, exactly what do theists believe is the intrinsically wrong with murder? Nothing at all? It's wrong only because God said it? If God came down to us saying "Hello. The ban on murder is lifted. See you!", would these people gladly go out on a rampage?
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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3/13/2016 7:10:58 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 6:49:07 PM, Jovian wrote:
Time after time, we atheists and agnostics are being questioned how we believe murder is wrong. The argument of those who question us is that murder has no reason to be wrong in atheism. We answer them all the time of answers like how it's about unfairly taking away someone's life for ever and make said person's family and friends have lifelong tragedies full of depression, anxiety, PTSD, and how you should be compassionate because you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to yourself or your family and friends.

This could of course be problematized, however let's move on.

If only religion could be a true buffer against murder happening, exactly what do theists believe is the intrinsically wrong with murder? Nothing at all? It's wrong only because God said it? If God came down to us saying "Hello. The ban on murder is lifted. See you!", would these people gladly go out on a rampage?

Consider the Latin term Deus Vult, "God Wills It" the rallying cry of the first crusade. I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Christians say, especially on the subject of morality. They consider themselves the self appointed moral police of the globe, and their just a bunch of hypocrites. Like everybody else.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, meaning they possess much of his personality and character. We instinctively know that murder is wrong.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Taylor223
Posts: 4
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3/13/2016 7:13:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Consider the Latin term Deus Vult, "God Wills It" the rallying cry of the first crusade. I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Christians say, especially on the subject of morality. They consider themselves the self appointed moral police of the globe, and their just a bunch of hypocrites. Like everybody else.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, meaning they possess much of his personality and character. We instinctively know that murder is wrong.

People have many alternating views on what is right and wrong. We don't instincitvely know murder is wrong, which is why a large part of mankind took part in wars and battles, because they didn't think it was wrong to murder the enemy.
DavidHenson
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3/13/2016 7:18:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:13:48 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
People have many alternating views on what is right and wrong. We don't instincitvely know murder is wrong, which is why a large part of mankind took part in wars and battles, because they didn't think it was wrong to murder the enemy.

Well, we don't always listen to our instinct, or whatever you want to call it. Moral compass. That's for sure. Don't you think there is a difference between killing in warfare and murder. I mean, I see it the same, but in the mind of soldiers the playing field is different, or whatever they tell themselves.

Usually that God is on their side, which is nonsense.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Taylor223
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3/13/2016 7:23:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:18:48 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Well, we don't always listen to our instinct, or whatever you want to call it. Moral compass. That's for sure. Don't you think there is a difference between killing in warfare and murder. I mean, I see it the same, but in the mind of soldiers the playing field is different, or whatever they tell themselves.

Usually that God is on their side, which is nonsense.

Why do you assume these people have the same morals as you? Many peoples have had different beliefs about murder. What makes you think that people naturally have one and rebel against it in the many cases of such?
DavidHenson
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3/13/2016 7:26:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:23:08 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
Why do you assume these people have the same morals as you? Many peoples have had different beliefs about murder. What makes you think that people naturally have one and rebel against it in the many cases of such?

Okay. Give some examples where the majority of a society are of the opinion that murder is okay, rather than a serious crime.

Welcome to the forum, by the way - glad to see new people.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Taylor223
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3/13/2016 7:33:35 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:26:53 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Okay. Give some examples where the majority of a society are of the opinion that murder is okay, rather than a serious crime.

Welcome to the forum, by the way - glad to see new people.

Every society I know of says its bad to kill fellow members of society, as any society that did not would not survive. Many societies, however, have said it is ok or even good to murder people outside their society, such as the many warrior cultures such as the Celts and Aztecs that have emerged throughout history.
Thank you, pleasure to be here.
Jovian
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3/13/2016 7:35:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:26:53 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:23:08 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
Why do you assume these people have the same morals as you? Many peoples have had different beliefs about murder. What makes you think that people naturally have one and rebel against it in the many cases of such?

Okay. Give some examples where the majority of a society are of the opinion that murder is okay, rather than a serious crime.

Justified murder could never be classified as the traditional definition of murder, coldblooded that is. Many cultures in the past saw no problems in killing ones young because "Dammit it was a girl, we need boys!".

Welcome to the forum, by the way - glad to see new people.
DavidHenson
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3/13/2016 7:41:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:33:35 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
Every society I know of says its bad to kill fellow members of society, as any society that did not would not survive. Many societies, however, have said it is ok or even good to murder people outside their society, such as the many warrior cultures such as the Celts and Aztecs that have emerged throughout history.
Thank you, pleasure to be here.

There you go. You've got your answer. Now how does that jive with the history of Christianity? Pretty much the same. The originators of Christianity, and the early Christians wouldn't fight in the wars of their country, but over time as the apostasy increased, especially after Constantine in the 4th century C.E. Christianity began acting like or in allegiance with other societies and fought wars, murdering, often, other Christians of other nations.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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3/13/2016 7:43:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:35:12 PM, Jovian wrote:
Justified murder could never be classified as the traditional definition of murder, coldblooded that is. Many cultures in the past saw no problems in killing ones young because "Dammit it was a girl, we need boys!".

Yup. That's true as well. About the Girls anyway.

What do you mean by "Justified murder?"
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Taylor223
Posts: 4
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3/13/2016 7:45:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:41:18 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:33:35 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
Every society I know of says its bad to kill fellow members of society, as any society that did not would not survive. Many societies, however, have said it is ok or even good to murder people outside their society, such as the many warrior cultures such as the Celts and Aztecs that have emerged throughout history.
Thank you, pleasure to be here.

There you go. You've got your answer. Now how does that jive with the history of Christianity? Pretty much the same. The originators of Christianity, and the early Christians wouldn't fight in the wars of their country, but over time as the apostasy increased, especially after Constantine in the 4th century C.E. Christianity began acting like or in allegiance with other societies and fought wars, murdering, often, other Christians of other nations.

What? How does that explain how people instinctively know murder is wrong?
DavidHenson
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3/13/2016 7:51:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:45:00 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
What? How does that explain how people instinctively know murder is wrong?

Just because they know its wrong don't mean that they won't do it. They know speeding is wrong, they know stealing is wrong, they know cheating, etc. They will find some way to justify it, ignore that its wrong. Make their enemies into animals. Monsters. Communists, Terrorists.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,122
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3/14/2016 12:37:18 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:13:48 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
Consider the Latin term Deus Vult, "God Wills It" the rallying cry of the first crusade. I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Christians say, especially on the subject of morality. They consider themselves the self appointed moral police of the globe, and their just a bunch of hypocrites. Like everybody else.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, meaning they possess much of his personality and character. We instinctively know that murder is wrong.

People have many alternating views on what is right and wrong. We don't instincitvely know murder is wrong, which is why a large part of mankind took part in wars and battles, because they didn't think it was wrong to murder the enemy.

Sure, atrocities happen in war and murder may be among them, but war is not murder.
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Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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3/14/2016 1:00:08 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:43:22 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:35:12 PM, Jovian wrote:
Justified murder could never be classified as the traditional definition of murder, coldblooded that is. Many cultures in the past saw no problems in killing ones young because "Dammit it was a girl, we need boys!".

Yup. That's true as well. About the Girls anyway.

What do you mean by "Justified murder?"

I used the wrong word, I meant justified way of taking away someone's life, like death penalty. However, there must also be very few people murdering just for the fun of it, and even then that is some kind of justification, from the murderers' perspective.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/14/2016 3:41:49 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 6:49:07 PM, Jovian wrote:
Time after time, we atheists and agnostics are being questioned how we believe murder is wrong. The argument of those who question us is that murder has no reason to be wrong in atheism. We answer them all the time of answers like how it's about unfairly taking away someone's life for ever and make said person's family and friends have lifelong tragedies full of depression, anxiety, PTSD, and how you should be compassionate because you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to yourself or your family and friends.

This could of course be problematized, however let's move on.

If only religion could be a true buffer against murder happening, exactly what do theists believe is the intrinsically wrong with murder? Nothing at all? It's wrong only because God said it? If God came down to us saying "Hello. The ban on murder is lifted. See you!", would these people gladly go out on a rampage?

Theists too have the same feelings and logic about murder. but the difference is Theists also have (beside reasoning why murder is bad) objective approach. its not "only bcz God says so". if u want to understand why murder is bad in strict logical intellectual way sure its only bcz God says so but here its not the issue.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/14/2016 3:43:57 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 6:49:07 PM, Jovian wrote:
Time after time, we atheists and agnostics are being questioned how we believe murder is wrong. The argument of those who question us is that murder has no reason to be wrong in atheism. We answer them all the time of answers like how it's about unfairly taking away someone's life for ever and make said person's family and friends have lifelong tragedies full of depression, anxiety, PTSD, and how you should be compassionate because you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to yourself or your family and friends.

This could of course be problematized, however let's move on.

If only religion could be a true buffer against murder happening, exactly what do theists believe is the intrinsically wrong with murder? Nothing at all? It's wrong only because God said it? If God came down to us saying "Hello. The ban on murder is lifted. See you!", would these people gladly go out on a rampage?

David Hume...
"Take any action allow"d to be vicious: Wilful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice. In which-ever way you take it, you find only certain passions, motives, volitions and thoughts. There is no other matter of fact in the case. The vice entirely escapes you, as long as you consider the object. You never can find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, towards this action. Here is a matter of fact; but "tis the object of feeling, not of reason. It lies in yourself, not in the object. So that when you pronounce any action or character to be vicious, you mean nothing, but that from the constitution of your nature you have a feeling or sentiment of blame from the contemplation of it. Vice and virtue, therefore, may be compar"d to sounds, colours, heat and cold, which, according to modern philosophy, are not qualities in objects, but perceptions in the mind"
Never fart near dog
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/14/2016 4:57:36 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:33:35 PM, Taylor223 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:26:53 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Okay. Give some examples where the majority of a society are of the opinion that murder is okay, rather than a serious crime.

Welcome to the forum, by the way - glad to see new people.

Every society I know of says its bad to kill fellow members of society, as any society that did not would not survive. Many societies, however, have said it is ok or even good to murder people outside their society, such as the many warrior cultures such as the Celts and Aztecs that have emerged throughout history.
Thank you, pleasure to be here.

I suppose I cant speak for everyone but I don't have any desire to live in a primitive society. If the majority agree then the minority has to get in step if they want to thrive in that society.