Total Posts:96|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Christians cant accept old earth or evolution

Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

It is clear a perfect world could not have existed at or before the time of Adam and eve. Unless you deny entirely all prior evidence and stick to the literal interpretation of genesis.

Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

They do, and they shouldn't. The Bible doesn't state the age of the heavens and earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

They shouldn't do that. They should just wait for someone to say, oh, those numbers are wrong, like they always do.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.

Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

No, quite simply it means you need to pay more attention to that which you criticize.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
LittleBallofHATE
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 8:00:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

They do, and they shouldn't. The Bible doesn't state the age of the heavens and earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

They shouldn't do that. They should just wait for someone to say, oh, those numbers are wrong, like they always do.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.

Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

No, quite simply it means you need to pay more attention to that which you criticize.

There is no reason why the human race could not be the result of just two people. They were created perfect, so inbreeding would not be a problem, since there were no recessive genes. Also, consider the Biblical Genealogy of Christ. As it progresses, people go from living almost a thousand years, to a few hundred years. Then a mere century, if that. Some theorize that there was a canopy of water surrounding the earth, before the flood. This would have filtered out harmful cosmic rays, leading to a longer lifespan. After the flood, there was a steady decline in the human lifespan. This could also have been the result of cumulative mutations. Did you know that there are four genes in our DNA that used to produce Vitamin C? One of those genes no longer function. If it did, we would have a longer lifespan, since our bodies would have a natural mechanism for fighting free radicals that cause cellular damage.
I would agree with you, but then we'd BOTH be wrong.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 8:01:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.
Yes. Modern, well-educated Christians generally don't believe that. And because they don't, they have troubles justifying Original Sin, which in turn messes with traditional dualism, and consequently undermines the notion of a universe constructed to be morally ordered.

Because old dogmas are no longer credible, modern Christian theology is dismantling its ancient traditions piece by piece, and seems headed toward universalism [https://en.wikipedia.org...] -- the idea that Jesus saves everyone, regardless of faith and circumstance, which is the only just way to reconcile a compassionate omnipotent divinity with an amoral universe.

But that in turn means relinquishing Christians' much-cherished paternalistic rights to evangelise and order other peoples' lives, while raising doubt over the need for worship or study scripture, or the need for a clerical class at all.

It's a hard time to live in as an educated Christian. You end up looking more like a Buddhist, a Deist or an agnostic. :)
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 9:33:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.
Says who?
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:15:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 9:33:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.
Says who?

Guess! Yes! The Bible!

The scriptures below give the Garden of Eden where trees and grass are planted as a specific location, and is contrasted with thistles and thorns when Adam and Eve are ejected.

Genesis 2:8 "God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Genesis 2:10-14 "Now there was a river issuing out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it began to be parted and it became, as it were, four heads. The first one"s name is Pishon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good. There also are the bdellium gum and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one going to the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:20:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:15:29 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 9:33:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.
Says who?

Guess! Yes! The Bible!

The scriptures below give the Garden of Eden where trees and grass are planted as a specific location, and is contrasted with thistles and thorns when Adam and Eve are ejected.

Genesis 2:8 "God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Genesis 2:10-14 "Now there was a river issuing out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it began to be parted and it became, as it were, four heads. The first one"s name is Pishon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good. There also are the bdellium gum and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one going to the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."
"Hostile and Wild" was the claim.
Ya got anything from your book for that?
Ya doin' a mad, makin' sh*t up.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:37:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 8:00:02 PM, LittleBallofHATE wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

They do, and they shouldn't. The Bible doesn't state the age of the heavens and earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

They shouldn't do that. They should just wait for someone to say, oh, those numbers are wrong, like they always do.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.

Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

No, quite simply it means you need to pay more attention to that which you criticize.

There is no reason why the human race could not be the result of just two people. They were created perfect, so inbreeding would not be a problem, since there were no recessive genes. Also, consider the Biblical Genealogy of Christ. As it progresses, people go from living almost a thousand years, to a few hundred years. Then a mere century, if that. Some theorize that there was a canopy of water surrounding the earth, before the flood. This would have filtered out harmful cosmic rays, leading to a longer lifespan. After the flood, there was a steady decline in the human lifespan. This could also have been the result of cumulative mutations. Did you know that there are four genes in our DNA that used to produce Vitamin C? One of those genes no longer function. If it did, we would have a longer lifespan, since our bodies would have a natural mechanism for fighting free radicals that cause cellular damage.

Adam and eves children would have to have committed incest to ensure the continuation of the species even if as you claim it was possible for a species to survive from just two individuals. This clearly goes against bible teachings as incest is not allowed.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:42:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:15:29 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 9:33:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.
Says who?

Guess! Yes! The Bible!

The scriptures below give the Garden of Eden where trees and grass are planted as a specific location, and is contrasted with thistles and thorns when Adam and Eve are ejected.

Genesis 2:8 "God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Genesis 2:10-14 "Now there was a river issuing out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it began to be parted and it became, as it were, four heads. The first one"s name is Pishon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good. There also are the bdellium gum and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one going to the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

So by claiming the garden of Eden only constituted a small area of earth you acknowledge suffering on earth occurred before Adam sinned?

Therefore claims the fallen world is the result of Adam's sin are incorrect.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:37:19 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 8:00:02 PM, LittleBallofHATE wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:37:40 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

They do, and they shouldn't. The Bible doesn't state the age of the heavens and earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

They shouldn't do that. They should just wait for someone to say, oh, those numbers are wrong, like they always do.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Uh - not quite. The Garden of Eden was a small place created especially for Adam and Eve. Outside of that small area was very much different. Hostile, wild.

Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

No, quite simply it means you need to pay more attention to that which you criticize.

There is no reason why the human race could not be the result of just two people. They were created perfect, so inbreeding would not be a problem, since there were no recessive genes. Also, consider the Biblical Genealogy of Christ. As it progresses, people go from living almost a thousand years, to a few hundred years. Then a mere century, if that. Some theorize that there was a canopy of water surrounding the earth, before the flood. This would have filtered out harmful cosmic rays, leading to a longer lifespan. After the flood, there was a steady decline in the human lifespan. This could also have been the result of cumulative mutations. Did you know that there are four genes in our DNA that used to produce Vitamin C? One of those genes no longer function. If it did, we would have a longer lifespan, since our bodies would have a natural mechanism for fighting free radicals that cause cellular damage.

Adam and eves children would have to have committed incest to ensure the continuation of the species even if as you claim it was possible for a species to survive from just two individuals. This clearly goes against bible teachings as incest is not allowed.
The prohibition of incest was introduced later in the bible as God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck it could cause. Genetic diversity is essential for biological fitness of the species.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:54:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:37:19 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Adam and eves children would have to have committed incest to ensure the continuation of the species even if as you claim it was possible for a species to survive from just two individuals. This clearly goes against bible teachings as incest is not allowed.

Incest wasn't allowed later. Much later.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 10:58:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 11:05:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:58:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?

I don't have to win every argument against God. Not if I want to maintain my most spiritual status and show some modesty. But you go ahead. What have you got to lose!!!?
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 11:06:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 10:54:31 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:37:19 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Adam and eves children would have to have committed incest to ensure the continuation of the species even if as you claim it was possible for a species to survive from just two individuals. This clearly goes against bible teachings as incest is not allowed.

Incest wasn't allowed later. Much later.

True the book it was outlawed in hadent been written yet. Still it's strange a god would allow something to happen he later came to despise. it's hard to see how Christians can condem consensual incest when it is clearly practiced in the early stages of the religion.

However in the mythical garden of Eden a 900 year old man, a rebellious angel, a talking snake, an entire species emerging from 2 individuals and an eternal god can all in the minds of Christians be explained. It's the sort of story a child would make up.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.

Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2016 9:01:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

Do you enjoy suffering severe pain? It's most certainly a flaw. Would you enjoy being attacked by a lion and mauled to death?

It is clear the world was the same before the garden of Eden event as it was after. No evidence exists suggesting things got worse. Therefore it shows the illogical nature of Christians who try and blame all of the world's flaws on Satan.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 2:45:56 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:01:13 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

Do you enjoy suffering severe pain? It's most certainly a flaw. Would you enjoy being attacked by a lion and mauled to death?

Pain can bring about good outcomes, so I don't see how we should consider it objectively flawed.

It is clear the world was the same before the garden of Eden event as it was after. No evidence exists suggesting things got worse. Therefore it shows the illogical nature of Christians who try and blame all of the world's flaws on Satan.

Only Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 6:13:33 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:05:09 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:58:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?

I don't have to win every argument against God. Not if I want to maintain my most spiritual status and show some modesty. But you go ahead. What have you got to lose!!!?
Question too hard Hari? hahaha
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 7:17:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

I would have gone down the "who was there to feel pain and suffering?" line
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 7:23:36 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:06:45 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:54:31 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:37:19 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Adam and eves children would have to have committed incest to ensure the continuation of the species even if as you claim it was possible for a species to survive from just two individuals. This clearly goes against bible teachings as incest is not allowed.

Incest wasn't allowed later. Much later.

True the book it was outlawed in hadent been written yet. Still it's strange a god would allow something to happen he later came to despise. it's hard to see how Christians can condem consensual incest when it is clearly practiced in the early stages of the religion.

Well, we can fit this in with what LittleBallOfHATE said.

There is no reason why the human race could not be the result of just two people. They were created perfect, so inbreeding would not be a problem, since there were no recessive genes.

So therefore, God adapted the rules to the people. Because humans needed to stop in-breeding, God made a rule against it.

However in the mythical garden of Eden a 900 year old man, a rebellious angel, a talking snake, an entire species emerging from 2 individuals and an eternal god can all in the minds of Christians be explained. It's the sort of story a child would make up.

Nah, the amount it links in with the rest of the Bible... You'd need some sort of God to write that a few hundred thousand years before Jesus.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 9:07:48 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 7:17:53 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

I would have gone down the "who was there to feel pain and suffering?" line

Interesting concept. Can you elaborate?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 12:02:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 6:13:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:05:09 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:58:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?

I don't have to win every argument against God. Not if I want to maintain my most spiritual status and show some modesty. But you go ahead. What have you got to lose!!!?
Question too hard Hari? hahaha

I knew you would struggle with that. You hit bottom a long time ago.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 12:38:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

Pain in of itself is not a flaw, its an indicator for a flaw. Much in the same way that a fire alarm is not the problem, feeling pain indicates that something in the system is no longer functioning within intended parameters, or will soon "go off the rails" if not addressed.

It could be argued that anything preventing a system from functioning to its use would indeed be a flaw or defect, something objectively wrong.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 1:33:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

Lol, you're catching on quickly...


However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Could you give me the passage you are working from in the underlined above please?

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

Though your theology is somewhat rusty this is not entirely true. The main type of "flaws" that are being dealt with are conscious, selfish decisions of humans (man). This is what the story of Adam and Eve represent. They don't just represent eating an apple or disobeying God in the garden and hiding. This is all representative of the imperfect nature of man, duality, sin and righteousness in us ALL.
Since this simple understanding applies to us all (since no one is perfect or sinless) the story represents the nature of all of us, the tendency to disobey righteousness or even in some cases hide from God or hate God.
Every major religion deals with the flesh vs the spirit (or good and evil) and in Genesis it's no different, only the "fruit, talking snake, Eve tempting Adam, them hiding from God" are all irrelevant, it's just a means to invoke imagery. Even if the accounts are figurative or literal it doesn't matter because the spiritual understandings and the lessons of duality are consistent and apply to every situation, not just in the "garden". We miss the spiritual backdrop and lesson when we focus on irrelevant things.


This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Could you provide the passage you are referring to about a "perfect" flawless world? I'd like to see what you are working from...

It is clear a perfect world could not have existed at or before the time of Adam and eve. Unless you deny entirely all prior evidence and stick to the literal interpretation of genesis.

I'd like to see the passage you are working from....


Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

Absurdity?? you mean like creation? the sin nature of man?? spirituality? yes I can see how any atheist would perceive those to be absurdities lol, but they are merely your own perceptions and limited ones at that.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 2:16:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 12:38:36 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

Pain in of itself is not a flaw, its an indicator for a flaw. Much in the same way that a fire alarm is not the problem, feeling pain indicates that something in the system is no longer functioning within intended parameters, or will soon "go off the rails" if not addressed.

It could be argued that anything preventing a system from functioning to its use would indeed be a flaw or defect, something objectively wrong.

The fact that we're born with pain receptors indicate that we're supposed to feel pain, IMO
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 2:24:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 2:16:25 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/15/2016 12:38:36 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/14/2016 1:01:17 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:48:46 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:24:15 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Why would anyone consider carnivores, natural disasters, and extinction flaws? In what way do you consider them flaws?

Because these events include pain, suffering and violence. In a perfect world predators, natural disasters and mass extinction events would not happen.


Well now you've just backed my question up one step... On what basis do you claim pain, suffering, and violence are flaws?

Pain in of itself is not a flaw, its an indicator for a flaw. Much in the same way that a fire alarm is not the problem, feeling pain indicates that something in the system is no longer functioning within intended parameters, or will soon "go off the rails" if not addressed.

It could be argued that anything preventing a system from functioning to its use would indeed be a flaw or defect, something objectively wrong.

The fact that we're born with pain receptors indicate that we're supposed to feel pain, IMO

Do you feel pain when your body is functioning without complication? We -can- feel pain as a response to recognize when our bodies are not working correctly, or being impeded from working correctly. Stating that we are "supposed" to feel pain, the indicator for a problem within our body, to me states that we were not designed, as an alarm system wouldn't be needed in a system that was designed perfectly, as Adam and Eve were (supposedly).
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 2:38:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 12:02:06 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/15/2016 6:13:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:05:09 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:58:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/13/2016 10:48:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?

I don't have to win every argument against God. Not if I want to maintain my most spiritual status and show some modesty. But you go ahead. What have you got to lose!!!?
Question too hard Hari? hahaha

I knew you would struggle with that. You hit bottom a long time ago.
Can't answer the question Hari?
Here it is again for your fearful retreat.
God became aware of the shrinking gene pool and the genetic bottleneck
This must be the non omniscient god yeah?

I'll help you out Hari.
If the god was omniscient then he wouldn't have become aware, he would have already known.
So the god you worship is not omniscient.
Thick aren't you.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2016 4:54:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 1:33:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/13/2016 7:21:07 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many Christians wriggle out of the genesis creation account in a variety of ways to enable them to claim it is possible for Christianity to be compatible with the big bang, the 13. 8 billion year old universe and 4. 5 billion year old earth.

Some also claim it is possible for Christianity to accept the theory of evolution with the supposed creations Adam and eve simply being the first two humans god recognized as humans. They claim he waited for humanity to evolve from other species and say this had been planned all along. These Christians then use this as an excuse to get out of the gene shortages of just two people on the earth.

Lol, you're catching on quickly...


However they have missed a key point. Biblical creation accounts suggest a perfect flawless world before Satan tricked Adam into sin.

Could you give me the passage you are working from in the underlined above please?

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning"the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)

He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground"everything that has the breath of life in it"I give every green plant for food." And it was so. (Genesis 1:29"30)


This means they are claiming the entirety of life on earth which they recognize goes back millions of years before Adam's sin lived in this perfect flawless world.

Though your theology is somewhat rusty this is not entirely true. The main type of "flaws" that are being dealt with are conscious, selfish decisions of humans (man). This is what the story of Adam and Eve represent. They don't just represent eating an apple or disobeying God in the garden and hiding. This is all representative of the imperfect nature of man, duality, sin and righteousness in us ALL.
Since this simple understanding applies to us all (since no one is perfect or sinless) the story represents the nature of all of us, the tendency to disobey righteousness or even in some cases hide from God or hate God.
Every major religion deals with the flesh vs the spirit (or good and evil) and in Genesis it's no different, only the "fruit, talking snake, Eve tempting Adam, them hiding from God" are all irrelevant, it's just a means to invoke imagery. Even if the accounts are figurative or literal it doesn't matter because the spiritual understandings and the lessons of duality are consistent and apply to every situation, not just in the "garden". We miss the spiritual backdrop and lesson when we focus on irrelevant things.

The idea that the genesis account can be taken anything but literally is a way for Christians who recognize its absurdity to bend it to suit their views and make it seem credible.


This is clearly flawed thinking as it is clear throughout the earths history many predatory animals existed, natural disasters occurred and even mass extinctions.

Could you provide the passage you are referring to about a "perfect" flawless world? I'd like to see what you are working from...

Read above.

It is clear a perfect world could not have existed at or before the time of Adam and eve. Unless you deny entirely all prior evidence and stick to the literal interpretation of genesis.

I'd like to see the passage you are working from....

Again see above.


Quite simply there is no way Christians can adequately defend the absurdity of genesis.

Absurdity?? you mean like creation? the sin nature of man?? spirituality? yes I can see how any atheist would perceive those to be absurdities lol, but they are merely your own perceptions and limited ones at that.

The absurdity of genesis is obvious. A 6 day creation 6, 000 years ago, an originally perfect world destroyed by an evil angel influencing a man who eventually reached 900 years of age to eat an Apple after being influenced by a talking snake.

God decides to punish all of his creations for thousands of years due to one rogue angel. This story is absolutely absurd. The fact plentiful evidence exists thouroughly disproving it only supports my view Christianity is a myth that has become the world's biggest lie.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.