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Theocrats Running for US Office

Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/14/2016 7:19:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Theocrats are people, especially politicians and religious figures, that believe the institutions of Government and Religion (Church) should be allowed to mix, if not be entirely one. Religious doctrine should be law and the Church ought to have police powers. There are not many official Theocracies (governments ruled by Theocrats) in the world, Iran and Saudi Arabia are 2 of the most influential - and are examples of why living in Theocracies ought to be avoided.

In the US we are officially a secular nation, which supports broad ideas of freedom on speech/association/religion etc. enshrined in the Contitution and following Amendments. The US is 70% Christian [1] and it would be impossible to deny how Christian beliefs have influenced US history for better or worse. It is not that Christianity itself is the contention, but those who wish to impose their (usually Christian) religion via law to pervert the secular nature of US Government/Society.

There are many people who I would describe as Theocrats running for office and currently in government today, they are typically characterized as the 'Religious Right' in the US to distinguish themselves from Libertarians and Classical Liberals.

For example Ted Cruz (R, Senator - TX) has said many times openly how he plans to put god in the White House, his God specifically. He even says he felt the Holy Spirit urge him to run for President [2]. And there are many like him, especially at the State and Local levels of US government who wish to impose their religious, specifically Christian views. Kim Davis is another perfect example of a Theocrat denying people their rights [4].

A survey found the 57% of Republicans "want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion." [3]

Why do Americans want to establish a Christian Theocracy to parody Islamic Theocracies and all the abuse it entails?

So I ask Christians of all political stances their thoughts on the matter - should Christians vote in a manner respective of non-Christians so not to impose on a society built on religious equality? Or Should God always be on the ballot box? Must a religious candidate profess their desire to impose their religion on others to get votes? Knowing the future conflict they would pose - should holders of such a clearly unconstitutional position be allowed to run for US office?

P.S. And please, I know about how many Christians think the Separation of Church & State is meant to be one sided where only the State can't infringe upon Religion - but it's BS because Religion (Theocrats) use the State to impose their own religion - thus the State infringing on other non-state religions.

[1] http://www.pewforum.org...
[2] http://www.rawstory.com...
[3] http://www.politicususa.com...
[4] http://www.cbsnews.com...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/14/2016 9:03:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 7:19:24 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
A survey found the 57% of Republicans "want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion." [3]
[3] http://www.politicususa.com...

It's important to use primary sources when reporting survey results, since editorialists, propagandists and other opinion-shapers like to shade and manipulate the results.

The primary source is here: [http://www.publicpolicypolling.com...]. Relevant quotes on methodology and results are:

PPP surveyed 316 Republican primary voters from February 20th to 22nd [2015]. The margin of error for the survey is +/- 5.5%. This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews and interviews over the internet to voters who don"t have landline phones.

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the national religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
13% No Sure.


So from this poll alone we have no calibration against how Democrat or independent voters would have answered, and it's not clear how many Republican respondents knew that mandating a national religion is unconstitutional.

Does this response reflect contempt for the US constitution, ignorance of it, or some sort of unreconciled double standard?

It's not clear.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/14/2016 9:16:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:03:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/14/2016 7:19:24 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
A survey found the 57% of Republicans "want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion." [3]
[3] http://www.politicususa.com...

It's important to use primary sources when reporting survey results, since editorialists, propagandists and other opinion-shapers like to shade and manipulate the results.

The primary source is here: [http://www.publicpolicypolling.com...]. Relevant quotes on methodology and results are:

PPP surveyed 316 Republican primary voters from February 20th to 22nd [2015]. The margin of error for the survey is +/- 5.5%. This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews and interviews over the internet to voters who don"t have landline phones.

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the national religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
13% No Sure.


So from this poll alone we have no calibration against how Democrat or independent voters would have answered, and it's not clear how many Republican respondents knew that mandating a national religion is unconstitutional.

Does this response reflect contempt for the US constitution, ignorance of it, or some sort of unreconciled double standard?

It's not clear.

Ruv, as a citizen of this nation and living in a very Christian part of it, I can give you an answer for this area. These people have bought into the fiction that the US was founded as a Christian nation under Christian values and they think they would be returning to 'the good old days'. It's a rather uninformed point of view and I'm sure its buoyed up by a desire to have their religion ascendant once again since it has been in decline for some time now.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/14/2016 9:19:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:03:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

So from this poll alone we have no calibration against how Democrat or independent voters would have answered, and it's not clear how many Republican respondents knew that mandating a national religion is unconstitutional.

I said it was a Republican poll - because they are the party that regularly elects Theocrats. And if they were ignorant - it only adds to my questions.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/14/2016 9:28:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:16:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:03:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/14/2016 7:19:24 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
A survey found the 57% of Republicans "want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion." [3]

The primary source is here: [http://www.publicpolicypolling.com...]. Relevant quotes on methodology and results are:

PPP surveyed 316 Republican primary voters from February 20th to 22nd [2015]. The margin of error for the survey is +/- 5.5%. This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews and interviews over the internet to voters who don"t have landline phones.

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the national religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
13% No Sure.


So from this poll alone we have no calibration against how Democrat or independent voters would have answered, and it's not clear how many Republican respondents knew that mandating a national religion is unconstitutional.

Does this response reflect contempt for the US constitution, ignorance of it, or some sort of unreconciled double standard?

It's not clear.
Ruv, as a citizen of this nation and living in a very Christian part of it, I can give you an answer for this area. These people have bought into the fiction that the US was founded as a Christian nation under Christian values and they think they would be returning to 'the good old days'.
I think you're saying that they know Christian nationalist propaganda better than their own civic history. If so, that's a legitimate educational concern, DH, and a credible explanation, but there might be others too. For example, is it possible that some respondents might agree with the statement:
It is better to change the constitution and become a Christian nation than to let atheists or Muslims take over the USA?


Or what about:
It would improve the US to declare Christianity the national faith, even if it were not mandatory or government-funded?

I'm not trying to defend anyone here. I'm just pointing out that supporting an outcome isn't necessarily supporting all its implications, or supporting a particular method to achieve it.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/14/2016 9:35:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:28:05 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:16:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:03:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/14/2016 7:19:24 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
A survey found the 57% of Republicans "want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion." [3]

The primary source is here: [http://www.publicpolicypolling.com...]. Relevant quotes on methodology and results are:

PPP surveyed 316 Republican primary voters from February 20th to 22nd [2015]. The margin of error for the survey is +/- 5.5%. This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews and interviews over the internet to voters who don"t have landline phones.

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the national religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
13% No Sure.


So from this poll alone we have no calibration against how Democrat or independent voters would have answered, and it's not clear how many Republican respondents knew that mandating a national religion is unconstitutional.

Does this response reflect contempt for the US constitution, ignorance of it, or some sort of unreconciled double standard?

It's not clear.
Ruv, as a citizen of this nation and living in a very Christian part of it, I can give you an answer for this area. These people have bought into the fiction that the US was founded as a Christian nation under Christian values and they think they would be returning to 'the good old days'.
I think you're saying that they know Christian nationalist propaganda better than their own civic history. If so, that's a legitimate educational concern, DH, and a credible explanation, but there might be others too. For example, is it possible that some respondents might agree with the statement:
It is better to change the constitution and become a Christian nation than to let atheists or Muslims take over the USA?


Or what about:
It would improve the US to declare Christianity the national faith, even if it were not mandatory or government-funded?

Honestly, no. I know too many people who will argue that the US has always been a Christian nation. Out here in the much more rural area there has been a great deal less of the court actions that keep government and church separate. Almost every government event, be it a city council meeting or a July 4th celebration, begins with a prayer that usually ends 'In Jesus' name we pray'. I've been immersed in it too long to not be aware of it since I hear it all the time and read it in the facebook posts of the majority of my family.

I'm not trying to defend anyone here. I'm just pointing out that supporting an outcome isn't necessarily supporting all its implications, or supporting a particular method to achieve it.

That's even worse, since they are supporting something that they don't truly understand the implications of. They don't get that a Christian theocracy would end up much like a Muslim theocracy once the religious leaders become firmly entrenched and began to see defiance in anyone who doesn't 'bend a knee' to their brand of God and Jesus.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/14/2016 9:36:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:28:05 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

I'm not trying to defend anyone here. I'm just pointing out that supporting an outcome isn't necessarily supporting all its implications, or supporting a particular method to achieve it.

Yes I understand that but typically from what we've of the methods of actual Theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia, and the many already existing religiously motivated abuses in the US its not a hard stretch to think a Christian theocracy would have similar methods/outcomes to other Theocracies.
Bennett91
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3/14/2016 9:38:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:35:51 PM, dhardage wrote:


So do you like how I formed the OP? Are my points and stats compelling?

Now I just need to wait for a Theocrat to show up.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/14/2016 9:42:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:38:06 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:35:51 PM, dhardage wrote:


So do you like how I formed the OP? Are my points and stats compelling?

Now I just need to wait for a Theocrat to show up.

Good luck. I don't think anyone here would have the courage of their conviction to admit it if they did want an actual theocracy.
Bennett91
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3/14/2016 9:49:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:42:44 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:38:06 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:35:51 PM, dhardage wrote:


So do you like how I formed the OP? Are my points and stats compelling?

Now I just need to wait for a Theocrat to show up.

Good luck. I don't think anyone here would have the courage of their conviction to admit it if they did want an actual theocracy.

No American would describe them-self as a Theocrat. But that doesn't stop them from supporting Theocratic laws. What I want to know is why there's a lack of connection between freedom of religion and freedom from religion with these far right Christians. How can so many people honestly think their religious values trumps the rights of others?
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/14/2016 10:22:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:49:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:42:44 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:38:06 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:35:51 PM, dhardage wrote:


So do you like how I formed the OP? Are my points and stats compelling?

Now I just need to wait for a Theocrat to show up.

Good luck. I don't think anyone here would have the courage of their conviction to admit it if they did want an actual theocracy.

No American would describe them-self as a Theocrat. But that doesn't stop them from supporting Theocratic laws. What I want to know is why there's a lack of connection between freedom of religion and freedom from religion with these far right Christians. How can so many people honestly think their religious values trumps the rights of others?

well for one... Christianity is true, they are not...
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/14/2016 10:37:30 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 10:22:12 PM, VirBinarus wrote:

well for one... Christianity is true, they are not...

In a society of equals the Muslim who says "Islam is True, others are false" is just as 'right' as you are in your theological claims - to me it's a simple matter of Free Speech. But when it comes to voting on certain social issues, like should a mosque/civic center be allowed near Ground Zero, or if gays should be allowed to seek federal benefits equal to straight marriages; do you understand that not everyone believes what you believe in terms of the conception of God - thus to make anyone legally subservient to a religious claim they especially don't believe in is immoral. If the tables had turned, would you want Muslims passing legislation that resembled Sharia?

Or are you really a Theocrat?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/14/2016 10:48:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 10:22:12 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/14/2016 9:49:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
No American would describe them-self as a Theocrat. But that doesn't stop them from supporting Theocratic laws. What I want to know is why there's a lack of connection between freedom of religion and freedom from religion with these far right Christians. How can so many people honestly think their religious values trumps the rights of others?

well for one... Christianity is true, they are not...

VB, may I ask: if there were to appear on Earth a wondrous being that most Christians identified as Jesus, would you support his right to rule as King of the USA and the rest of the world?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/15/2016 3:43:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 10:22:12 PM, VirBinarus wrote:

well for one... Christianity is true, they are not...

Nothing to say about my last response? Or do you dislike how in the US people regardless of faith are considered equal?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/15/2016 3:43:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 10:22:12 PM, VirBinarus wrote:

well for one... Christianity is true, they are not...

Nothing to say about my last response? Or do you dislike how in the US people regardless of faith are considered equal?