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POPOO5560
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3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.
Never fart near dog
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.
POPOO5560
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3/16/2016 6:40:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

i myself wont do such things and be a selfish and stuff bcz i know myself. but thinking logically the best thing to be is to live a selfish life if u live once. philosophically this is true no one can deny i dont like it but who am i... and why think about punishment anyway do good because its good.


I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

lol!! tnkx bwt :D i just coming from philosophical point of view. i see it as stupid to be selfish regardless my faith. but its my opinion , other ppl wont agree.


Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

i live in israel its not ISIS where they gonna crucify me xD and i really dont give a sh1t on any idea or religion. if its true embrace it, if not throw it to the toilet. i care about truth not my selfish wishing. if Islam is garbage why not leaving it,,, i dont care lol

just to know from u philosophically (not emotions or opinions) the best life u can get is to do whatever u want right? regardless of what ppl consider as "moral" or "justice".
Never fart near dog
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/16/2016 6:47:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

My dog doesn't consider himself religious yet empathy, love and self sacrifice is a part of who he is. I don't think he could be cruel if his life depended on it.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/16/2016 6:56:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:47:51 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

My dog doesn't consider himself religious yet empathy, love and self sacrifice is a part of who he is. I don't think he could be cruel if his life depended on it.

an atheist dog lol... humans have logic to choose the best decision. dogs dont have it unfortunately. or maybe your dog knows philosophy?
Never fart near dog
matt8800
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3/16/2016 7:04:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:56:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:47:51 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

My dog doesn't consider himself religious yet empathy, love and self sacrifice is a part of who he is. I don't think he could be cruel if his life depended on it.

an atheist dog lol... humans have logic to choose the best decision. dogs dont have it unfortunately. or maybe your dog knows philosophy?

Many animals demonstrate altruistic traits. Why is the knowledge of a god required uniquely to humans to show those same traits?

Human logic may reason that empathy isn't necessary but, with the exception of psychopaths, empathy is a part of animals' makeup (this includes humans). With or without a god, empathy is here to stay.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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3/16/2016 7:10:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

a) why atheists? Doesn't this apply to everyone?

b) and morality is essential to a civilized society and a good life
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/16/2016 7:23:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:40:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?
i myself wont do such things and be a selfish and stuff bcz i know myself. but thinking logically the best thing to be is to live a selfish life if u live once.
Some philosophers agree with that view, but some don't. There are secular philosophies of morality and dignity reaching back thousands of years. These philosophies began at a time when the parent culture were polytheists -- and polytheist gods, as you may know, are chaotic, fractious and largely amoral -- so the parent culture had little notion of a morally-ordered universe.

We may agree with those philosophies or we may not, but what this tells us is that from early civilisation, humans have been exploring secular ideas of good, dignity and ethics, even when they didn't have to. So these are an abiding concern, even for people who don't believe in gods or afterlife punishments.

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)
lol!! tnkx bwt :D i just coming from philosophical point of view. i see it as stupid to be selfish regardless my faith. but its my opinion , other ppl wont agree.
Some do, and some don't. Ethics -- consideration of what we owe one another -- can be compelled by law, but only when our behaviours can be inspected. A truer measure of ethical integrity is not what laws we uphold, but what we do when we are unobserved.

Likewise, morality -- consideration of what is good and bad for one another -- can be taught, but moral concern -- a desire to enhance the good and limit the bad, can only be chosen.

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.
i care about truth not my selfish wishing. if Islam is garbage why not leaving it,,, i dont care lol
Yes, truth is important. But for reasons of morality and ethics, how we recognise truth matters too, and our accountabilities to one another for our methods, and our ignorance and error.

It is very easy to repeat our cultural traditions like a parrot, to treat them as true until proven false. But in doing so, it is exactly as you said: selfish wishing -- we wish our traditions to be superior to others, and beyond reproach, because that spares us conflict with the people who protect and support us, and avoids the examination of any bad habits and false beliefs we may have inherited.

But unfortunately, to the extent we do that, we also abandon moral sensibility and ethical accountability.

I don't think it's possible to pursue a moral and ethical life while cheering one's own national and cultural traditions.

just to know from u philosophically (not emotions or opinions) the best life u can get is to do whatever u want right?
It might be, if we knew from the start what was good for us.

But it doesn't work that way, Popoo. We learn more about life from investing in the lives of others. In our own lives, we can make only a few mistakes, but the lives of others are full of millions of mistakes, so there's always more wisdom to be had outside our life than inside them.

To understand those mistakes, we need to view our fellow man with sympathy and compassion. When we do so, we become invested in their happiness too.

regardless of what ppl consider as "moral" or "justice".
I think people come at these things in more than one way. It's easy to frame morality and justice as rules, but that yields little wisdom.

Though harder, I think it wiser to think about morality in terms of needs and benefits, and to think of justice in terms of mutual respect.

Our capacity for pleasure is limited, Popoo, but our capacity for kindness and decency exists in every moment we live.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/18/2016 5:47:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 7:04:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:56:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:47:51 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

My dog doesn't consider himself religious yet empathy, love and self sacrifice is a part of who he is. I don't think he could be cruel if his life depended on it.

an atheist dog lol... humans have logic to choose the best decision. dogs dont have it unfortunately. or maybe your dog knows philosophy?

Many animals demonstrate altruistic traits. Why is the knowledge of a god required uniquely to humans to show those same traits?

Human logic may reason that empathy isn't necessary but, with the exception of psychopaths, empathy is a part of animals' makeup (this includes humans). With or without a god, empathy is here to stay.

Not argued here if we dont have empathy or as u said altruistic traits. putting your survival and interests in your primary goal is the best choice if u live once. doesnt matter if u have empathy or not.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/18/2016 5:56:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 7:10:24 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

a) why atheists? Doesn't this apply to everyone?

atheists dont believe there is afterlife u live only 1 life.


b) and morality is essential to a civilized society and a good life

never said morality is bad civilized society to function. i talking about individual u yourself. and good life according to who? if u steal from somebody money its good for u if u dont care about the victim. u dont have to work. for example u can see it in politics. the "democracy" countries invade other lands like africa or iraq to steal for their own benefit. they dont care if they kill millions. "peace/democracy" and the garbage u see on the media r just a smokescreen.
Never fart near dog
Rami
Posts: 431
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3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good. Any moral code is unjustified, so murder and rape is no different then charity and kindness.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/18/2016 6:12:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.
Any moral code is unjustified, so murder and rape is no different then charity and kindness.
Could you explain please Rami, why you believe good requires a justification? What adverse consequences are there of seeking good for good's sake?

Could you please set also out what the minimum criteria a justification for good must meet to be legitimate, and why you believe it must meet those criteria and not some other?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/18/2016 6:31:34 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/16/2016 7:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:40:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?
i myself wont do such things and be a selfish and stuff bcz i know myself. but thinking logically the best thing to be is to live a selfish life if u live once.
Some philosophers agree with that view, but some don't. There are secular philosophies of morality and dignity reaching back thousands of years. These philosophies began at a time when the parent culture were polytheists -- and polytheist gods, as you may know, are chaotic, fractious and largely amoral -- so the parent culture had little notion of a morally-ordered universe.

i dont know how some philosophers would disagree with this that u live only once and u do the best for yourself regardless what happens to others. in the end your reality is yourself.


We may agree with those philosophies or we may not, but what this tells us is that from early civilisation, humans have been exploring secular ideas of good, dignity and ethics, even when they didn't have to. So these are an abiding concern, even for people who don't believe in gods or afterlife punishments.

every animal finds the best way to live. whether that job done in collective stuff or individually. but the reason they do it is for their own benefit eventually. dude why when mention afterlife u have to say punishments. religious ppl believe also eternal pleasure.. u have punishments for criminals. dont be a criminal u dont have to worry about punishments.

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)
lol!! tnkx bwt :D i just coming from philosophical point of view. i see it as stupid to be selfish regardless my faith. but its my opinion , other ppl wont agree.
Some do, and some don't. Ethics -- consideration of what we owe one another -- can be compelled by law, but only when our behaviours can be inspected. A truer measure of ethical integrity is not what laws we uphold, but what we do when we are unobserved.

but who determine what Ethics/Morality is right? its all ideas if u dont believe in them they r nothing really. no value. let me ask u question... if u steal millions of dollars from Bill Gates and nobody knows about it. its good for u? u will live the best life on earth. or instead working all day struggling to survive. what is better?


Likewise, morality -- consideration of what is good and bad for one another -- can be taught, but moral concern -- a desire to enhance the good and limit the bad, can only be chosen.

believe me nobody cares about good or bad if its beneficial to them its good if not its not. that most ppl i work with. well its disgusting but we have to say the truth.


Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.
i care about truth not my selfish wishing. if Islam is garbage why not leaving it,,, i dont care lol
Yes, truth is important. But for reasons of morality and ethics, how we recognise truth matters too, and our accountabilities to one another for our methods, and our ignorance and error.


"accountabilities to one another" is not always necessary to get the best life u can get. thats my point.

It is very easy to repeat our cultural traditions like a parrot, to treat them as true until proven false. But in doing so, it is exactly as you said: selfish wishing -- we wish our traditions to be superior to others, and beyond reproach, because that spares us conflict with the people who protect and support us, and avoids the examination of any bad habits and false beliefs we may have inherited.

But unfortunately, to the extent we do that, we also abandon moral sensibility and ethical accountability.

I don't think it's possible to pursue a moral and ethical life while cheering one's own national and cultural traditions.

exactly. i always love my nation and whatever it comes with u know cultural traditions what u call it sh1t... u know u think u r superior and sutff i really dont get it how i was so stupid xD anyway the ppl around dont like it and they hate me for that. but u know life goes on they can jump off a building...

if u want to hear some good stuff about that and have 1 hour enjoy :) https://www.youtube.com...

just to know from u philosophically (not emotions or opinions) the best life u can get is to do whatever u want right?
It might be, if we knew from the start what was good for us.

But it doesn't work that way, Popoo. We learn more about life from investing in the lives of others. In our own lives, we can make only a few mistakes, but the lives of others are full of millions of mistakes, so there's always more wisdom to be had outside our life than inside them.

To understand those mistakes, we need to view our fellow man with sympathy and compassion. When we do so, we become invested in their happiness too.

but now its your subjective way to find sympathy and happiness. it can change if u want so.


regardless of what ppl consider as "moral" or "justice".
I think people come at these things in more than one way. It's easy to frame morality and justice as rules, but that yields little wisdom.

Though harder, I think it wiser to think about morality in terms of needs and benefits, and to think of justice in terms of mutual respect.

Our capacity for pleasure is limited, Popoo, but our capacity for kindness and decency exists in every moment we live.

as i said its subjective. if u put value on kindness and decency u will see it as good. if not its the other way.
Never fart near dog
Rami
Posts: 431
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3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view. Tell me, why is murder wrong?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/18/2016 6:57:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:31:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 7:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:40:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?
i myself wont do such things and be a selfish and stuff bcz i know myself. but thinking logically the best thing to be is to live a selfish life if u live once.
Some philosophers agree with that view, but some don't. There are secular philosophies of morality and dignity reaching back thousands of years.
i dont know how some philosophers would disagree with this that u live only once and u do the best for yourself regardless what happens to others. in the end your reality is yourself.

I don't agree, Popoo. That'd be fine if we were all crocodiles: a solitary predator lurking in wait in some river to seize on a tasty zebra buttock, mating with whomever we can find, laying our eggs in a nest and then abandoning them to hatch or die alone.

But that isn't how humans live. We live in groups, we cooperate, we depend on one another for protection, resources and comfort, we raise children in compassionate intimacy, and children grow through such nurture. Our reality isn't simply ourselves -- we have a broader sense of group critical to our sense of safety, belonging, comfort, dignity and identity.

People die for their groups. Sometimes they die just for the stories their group will tell about them. Our individual physiological selves are clearly not our only reality.

We may agree with those philosophies or we may not, but what this tells us is that from early civilisation, humans have been exploring secular ideas of good, dignity and ethics, even when they didn't have to. So these are an abiding concern, even for people who don't believe in gods or afterlife punishments.
every animal finds the best way to live. whether that job done in collective stuff or individually.
Well, they seek an effective way to live. They can't know without testing whether it's the best.

but the reason they do it is for their own benefit eventually.
That's clearly not so. A huge amount of socialisation and reproduction benefits the group at individual cost.

dude why when mention afterlife u have to say punishments. religious ppl believe also eternal pleasure..
To me those ideas both seem meaningless, but also infantile: stories told to children about castles made of sweets, and endless nights of going to bed whipped and without supper.

u have punishments for criminals. dont be a criminal u dont have to worry about punishments.
Criminals have no need for endless punishments; the virtuous have no need for endless rewards. Neither justice nor morality are served by such fairytales.

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)
lol!! tnkx bwt :D i just coming from philosophical point of view. i see it as stupid to be selfish regardless my faith. but its my opinion , other ppl wont agree.
Some do, and some don't. Ethics -- consideration of what we owe one another -- can be compelled by law, but only when our behaviours can be inspected. A truer measure of ethical integrity is not what laws we uphold, but what we do when we are unobserved.
but who determine what Ethics/Morality is right?
I think 'who' is the wrong question. The right question is 'how'. When we ask the 'how' question, then it may become apparent that:
1) No one individual -- not even a god, should tell people how to live; and
2) The best ethical frames are accountable for evidence, ignorance and error.

Likewise, morality -- consideration of what is good and bad for one another -- can be taught, but moral concern -- a desire to enhance the good and limit the bad, can only be chosen.
believe me nobody cares about good or bad if its beneficial to them its good if not its not.
Truly? How would you know if you were wrong?

i care about truth not my selfish wishing. if Islam is garbage why not leaving it,,, i dont care lol
Yes, truth is important. But for reasons of morality and ethics, how we recognise truth matters too, and our accountabilities to one another for our methods, and our ignorance and error.
"accountabilities to one another" is not always necessary to get the best life u can get. thats my point.
So you're saying you wouldbe cruel and selfish if you weren't driven by fear of religious punishments and greed for religious rewards? In other words, the only moral sense possible is that of a three year-old child's?

I don't think it's possible to pursue a moral and ethical life while cheering one's own national and cultural traditions.
exactly. i always love my nation and whatever it comes with u know cultural traditions what u call it sh1t... u know u think u r superior and sutff i really dont get it how i was so stupid xD anyway the ppl around dont like it and they hate me for that. but u know life goes on they can jump off a building...
if u want to hear some good stuff about that and have 1 hour enjoy :) https://www.youtube.com...
Thank you for the link. To judge from the title alone, I agree that 'patriotism' often leads to militant nationalism. (Soo too, unfortunately, does religious zeal.)

just to know from u philosophically (not emotions or opinions) the best life u can get is to do whatever u want right?
We learn more about life from investing in the lives of others. We need to view our fellow man with sympathy and compassion. When we do so, we become invested in their happiness too.
but now its your subjective way to find sympathy and happiness. it can change if u want so.
No, I don't accept the premise that humans primarily seek pleasure and avoid pain. I agree that those are among our motives, but don't agree they're our only motives.

Our capacity for pleasure is limited, Popoo, but our capacity for kindness and decency exists in every moment we live.
as i said its subjective. if u put value on kindness and decency u will see it as good. if not its the other way.
Yes, but what we do changes us. If we learn to act cruelly, we learn to think cruelly too. Conversely, if we learn to understand the suffering of others, we can learn to live as though their suffering is ours -- even if physiologically and socially, it is not.

That makes our sense of 'self' very elastic: it can grow beyond just me, to me-and-you, or even a broad sense of 'we' -- 'we' being family, community, nation, species, planet.

That applies to humanity in general, regardless of religious belief.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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3/18/2016 7:31:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 7:06:21 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
Morality ok I'll give it a try.
What must I do to get morality ?

If I believe in god I get Morality.
I really thought I was childish
But you lot take the cake.

I've got 37 years experience of life with no rules.

What have you got ? A book.
What could a book teach you that I would not of experienced over and over .
Rami
Posts: 431
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3/18/2016 7:38:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...
Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong? We're just going in a endless cycle.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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3/18/2016 7:45:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Your morality teachers you to not accept homosexuals. But I bet deep down . It doesn't bother you and you don't really care.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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3/18/2016 8:08:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 7:38:36 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...

Its objective. ;)

Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong?

Because nothing is gained, society doesn't advance, law of the jungle prevails, etc. People want to feel happiness, right? That typically doesn't happen with everyone behaving in a selfish fashion.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/18/2016 8:53:58 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:57:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:31:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 7:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:40:27 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?
i myself wont do such things and be a selfish and stuff bcz i know myself. but thinking logically the best thing to be is to live a selfish life if u live once.
Some philosophers agree with that view, but some don't. There are secular philosophies of morality and dignity reaching back thousands of years.
i dont know how some philosophers would disagree with this that u live only once and u do the best for yourself regardless what happens to others. in the end your reality is yourself.

I don't agree, Popoo. That'd be fine if we were all crocodiles: a solitary predator lurking in wait in some river to seize on a tasty zebra buttock, mating with whomever we can find, laying our eggs in a nest and then abandoning them to hatch or die alone.

But that isn't how humans live. We live in groups, we cooperate, we depend on one another for protection, resources and comfort, we raise children in compassionate intimacy, and children grow through such nurture. Our reality isn't simply ourselves -- we have a broader sense of group critical to our sense of safety, belonging, comfort, dignity and identity.

generally u r right here except that its not inclusive for all humans. like animals humans also separate between groups families or naitons. the each side fighting the other. so all u described here r for 1 group or the ppl they accept.


People die for their groups. Sometimes they die just for the stories their group will tell about them. Our individual physiological selves are clearly not our only reality.

so its all physiology ^^ the stories u tell to children will determine their life or what ppl believe is right they would do it.


We may agree with those philosophies or we may not, but what this tells us is that from early civilisation, humans have been exploring secular ideas of good, dignity and ethics, even when they didn't have to. So these are an abiding concern, even for people who don't believe in gods or afterlife punishments.
every animal finds the best way to live. whether that job done in collective stuff or individually.
Well, they seek an effective way to live. They can't know without testing whether it's the best.

but the reason they do it is for their own benefit eventually.
That's clearly not so. A huge amount of socialisation and reproduction benefits the group at individual cost.

dude why when mention afterlife u have to say punishments. religious ppl believe also eternal pleasure..
To me those ideas both seem meaningless, but also infantile: stories told to children about castles made of sweets, and endless nights of going to bed whipped and without supper.

u have punishments for criminals. dont be a criminal u dont have to worry about punishments.
Criminals have no need for endless punishments; the virtuous have no need for endless rewards. Neither justice nor morality are served by such fairytales.

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)
lol!! tnkx bwt :D i just coming from philosophical point of view. i see it as stupid to be selfish regardless my faith. but its my opinion , other ppl wont agree.
Some do, and some don't. Ethics -- consideration of what we owe one another -- can be compelled by law, but only when our behaviours can be inspected. A truer measure of ethical integrity is not what laws we uphold, but what we do when we are unobserved.
but who determine what Ethics/Morality is right?
I think 'who' is the wrong question. The right question is 'how'. When we ask the 'how' question, then it may become apparent that:
1) No one individual -- not even a god, should tell people how to live; and
2) The best ethical frames are accountable for evidence, ignorance and error.

Likewise, morality -- consideration of what is good and bad for one another -- can be taught, but moral concern -- a desire to enhance the good and limit the bad, can only be chosen.
believe me nobody cares about good or bad if its beneficial to them its good if not its not.
Truly? How would you know if you were wrong?

i wasnt clear here i mean generally for example when i work with ppl and see how they do their job. i dont want to say "all" but its close to that.


i care about truth not my selfish wishing. if Islam is garbage why not leaving it,,, i dont care lol
Yes, truth is important. But for reasons of morality and ethics, how we recognise truth matters too, and our accountabilities to one another for our methods, and our ignorance and error.
"accountabilities to one another" is not always necessary to get the best life u can get. thats my point.
So you're saying you wouldbe cruel and selfish if you weren't driven by fear of religious punishments and greed for religious rewards? In other words, the only moral sense possible is that of a three year-old child's?

not at all. true morality comes from objective source. if u dont have it. its just an idea. u can argue for that or against it.


I don't think it's possible to pursue a moral and ethical life while cheering one's own national and cultural traditions.
exactly. i always love my nation and whatever it comes with u know cultural traditions what u call it sh1t... u know u think u r superior and sutff i really dont get it how i was so stupid xD anyway the ppl around dont like it and they hate me for that. but u know life goes on they can jump off a building...
if u want to hear some good stuff about that and have 1 hour enjoy :) https://www.youtube.com...
Thank you for the link. To judge from the title alone, I agree that 'patriotism' often leads to militant nationalism. (Soo too, unfortunately, does religious zeal.)

just to know from u philosophically (not emotions or opinions) the best life u can get is to do whatever u want right?
We learn more about life from investing in the lives of others. We need to view our fellow man with sympathy and compassion. When we do so, we become invested in their happiness too.
but now its your subjective way to find sympathy and happiness. it can change if u want so.
No, I don't accept the premise that humans primarily seek pleasure and avoid pain. I agree that those are among our motives, but don't agree they're our only motives.

Our capacity for pleasure is limited, Popoo, but our capacity for kindness and decency exists in every moment we live.
as i said its subjective. if u put value on kindness and decency u will see it as good. if not its the other way.
Yes, but what we do changes us. If we learn to act cruelly, we learn to think cruelly too. Conversely, if we learn to understand the suffering of others, we can learn to live as though their suffering is ours -- even if physiologically and socially, it is not.

That makes our sense of 'self' very elastic: it can grow beyond just me, to me-and-you, or even a broad sense of 'we' -- 'we' being family, community, nation, species, planet.

That applies to humanity in gene
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
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3/18/2016 8:55:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 6:57:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

its full cant write... we off track i have things i agree with u and others i dont but tnkx for that......
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
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3/18/2016 8:58:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 7:45:37 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
Your morality teachers you to not accept homosexuals. But I bet deep down . It doesn't bother you and you don't really care.

false...
Never fart near dog
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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3/18/2016 9:01:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 8:58:18 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/18/2016 7:45:37 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
Your morality teachers you to not accept homosexuals. But I bet deep down . It doesn't bother you and you don't really care.

false...

That's sums up religion in 1 word.
Rami
Posts: 431
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3/18/2016 9:05:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 8:08:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 7:38:36 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...

Its objective. ;)

If you can say it's objective without any proof, then I can say God exists.

Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong?

Because nothing is gained, society doesn't advance, law of the jungle prevails, etc. People want to feel happiness, right? That typically doesn't happen with everyone behaving in a selfish fashion.

So does it objectively wrong though? Basically, you're saying that it's wrong because other people don't like it. So is murder equal to running around naked?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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3/19/2016 12:21:46 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 9:05:45 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 8:08:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 7:38:36 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...

Its objective. ;)

If you can say it's objective without any proof, then I can say God exists.

Equality is pretty objective, its not hard to quantify an equal action to another action. What do you feel about equal measures is subjective or in need of proof?


Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong?

Because nothing is gained, society doesn't advance, law of the jungle prevails, etc. People want to feel happiness, right? That typically doesn't happen with everyone behaving in a selfish fashion.

So does it objectively wrong though?

Wouldn't that depend on the action?

Basically, you're saying that it's wrong because other people don't like it. So is murder equal to running around naked?

No, its wrong because generally people don't want it done to them, as such people generally won't do it to others lest it get done back with no consequence.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Rami
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3/20/2016 12:28:55 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 12:21:46 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 9:05:45 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 8:08:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 7:38:36 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:52:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:42:41 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:25:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/18/2016 6:01:06 PM, Rami wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:20:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/16/2016 6:08:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...

Its objective. ;)

If you can say it's objective without any proof, then I can say God exists.

Equality is pretty objective, its not hard to quantify an equal action to another action. What do you feel about equal measures is subjective or in need of proof?

I'm not sure who's confused here, me or you. Just because you feel equality is good doesn't mean that it is good.

Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong?

Because nothing is gained, society doesn't advance, law of the jungle prevails, etc. People want to feel happiness, right? That typically doesn't happen with everyone behaving in a selfish fashion.

So does it objectively wrong though?

Wouldn't that depend on the action?

Basically, you're saying that it's wrong because other people don't like it. So is murder equal to running around naked?

No, its wrong because generally people don't want it done to them, as such people generally won't do it to others lest it get done back with no consequence.

I do not want to watch people running around nude. I also don't want to be murdered. So they're equal.
FaustianJustice
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3/20/2016 2:24:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
"you only live once". so why u atheists waste time confined by "morality". why dont u invent your own morality according to your survival and interests? its stupid to be regulated by an idea which doesnt exist anyway in real world.

Popoo, are you really saying that if you weren't threatened with eternal punishment for doing so, you'd rush to be be a selfish, hedonist, amoral scoundrel?

I don't think you would. I don't believe it would make you happy, or give you dignity or meaning in your life. If you didn't have religion, I think you'd be much the same person I perceive you to be now: a guy with a fun sense of humour, a sense of kindness, fairness and concern about the world, with good will toward people not of your faith, struggling (as we all do) to make sense of the world we live in. :)

Coming from the cultural background you do, even were you an atheist you'd probably have read the Qur'an thoroughly many times, and have attended worship many times before leaving the faith. That might cause problems with your family and -- depending on jurisdiction -- with the law -- but you'd still be essentially the same guy with slightly different beliefs, and possibly different relationships.

The thing is, atheists have no justification for being good.

This phrase presupposed something such as justice to exist, which immediately gives the atheist a justification, retribution exists. Were it fair for the atheist to do it, it would be fair for others to do in kind to the atheist.

This ignores empathy out right.

Let me rephrase it: objective morality doesn't exist in an atheistic outlook. Concepts like justice is all based upon one's subjective view.

'justice' however can be objectively obtained as it pertains to equality. If something is done by you, it can therefore be done to you.

Equality is good because...

Its objective. ;)

If you can say it's objective without any proof, then I can say God exists.

Equality is pretty objective, its not hard to quantify an equal action to another action. What do you feel about equal measures is subjective or in need of proof?

I'm not sure who's confused here, me or you. Just because you feel equality is good doesn't mean that it is good.

Well, that is the problem with insinuating other people can't hold a morality. Once some one demonstrates an objective way in which morality can be found without a religion, the theist sort of... um... well, gets confused.

At this given instance, you should elaborate what point you were driving to with your various questions.

Tell me, why is murder wrong?

Typically, it has no justification behind it beyond selfish reasons, though different examples of murder can occur that would bent whether or not its "wrong" by any stretch of the word.

So then why is being selfish wrong?

Because nothing is gained, society doesn't advance, law of the jungle prevails, etc. People want to feel happiness, right? That typically doesn't happen with everyone behaving in a selfish fashion.

So does it objectively wrong though?

Wouldn't that depend on the action?

Basically, you're saying that it's wrong because other people don't like it. So is murder equal to running around naked?

No, its wrong because generally people don't want it done to them, as such people generally won't do it to others lest it get done back with no consequence.

I do not want to watch people running around nude. I also don't want to be murdered. So they're equal.

So then you can quantify the effects of you being harmed by a streaker?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...