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Proof that Abrahamic god exists?

occams.rzr
Posts: 1
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3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)
Outplayz
Posts: 1,267
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3/20/2016 1:31:55 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)

This is all i can use in regards to my reasons in believing in spirituality.

No long commentaries.

I don't intend to, but you should know i am Agnostic Atheist - Spiritual.

Use scientific evidence.

I wish we were concentrating on "spirituality" rather than religion. I understand the subjectivity of the word "spiritual" but you can hone in to some aspects and possibly come up with some interesting work. However, the scientific community is busy studying and refuting thousand year old ideas with thousand year old babies. I understand the importance of that... we need to fade religion to the dust it shall meet - i just can't wait until the day science and spirituality grow together and will advocate this position with zeal.

Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.

I guess my last paragraph is sort of a preach, maybe more of a rant; but hey, it said what needed to be said.

No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

This is idiotic if claimed; "because a book says so." However, you can read a book a scientist wrote which later becomes fact... one can say bc the book says so... however, i disagree in a metaphysical claim, and think it is an intellectual lazy stance to use.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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3/20/2016 9:37:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:31:55 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

This is idiotic if claimed; "because a book says so." However, you can read a book a scientist wrote which later becomes fact...

True, but then it became fact through external factors. For example the Icelandic Sagas told of Leif Erikson travelling by boat to North America in the 1000s. It didn't become true until archaeologists found evidence in Canada saying Vikings were present there on that time.

I've however seen religious people who have been using the holy books solely as an proof of their religion being true. By that token, any religion could do the same and they would be all true.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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3/20/2016 9:54:48 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Muhammed.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/20/2016 9:56:54 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:54:48 AM, desmac wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Muhammed.

what did he do in front of huge crowds that shows he had some authority?
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
tarantula
Posts: 854
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3/20/2016 10:25:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

A guy whom even his family didn't rate!
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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3/20/2016 10:57:40 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:56:54 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:54:48 AM, desmac wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Muhammed.

what did he do in front of huge crowds that shows he had some authority?

He started a fairly successful Abrahamic religion business.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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3/20/2016 12:47:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
Use scientific evidence.

What do you mean with scientific evidence?
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/20/2016 3:46:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

How do you know he walked on water? (for example)

No every story in an old book is automatically deemed true just because the book is old.
bulproof
Posts: 25,211
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3/20/2016 3:48:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Which one, the magic man or the historical one?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/20/2016 5:02:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 3:48:09 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Which one, the magic man or the historical one?

The one who claimed to be God, and put forward some pretty convincing reasons why.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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3/21/2016 12:09:37 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

Joseph Smith wrote that he received the Book of Mormon on golden plates buried in a box. He was directed to this box by an angel and had to translate it himself from Egyptian. That sounds suspiciously like a miracle to me. True or false?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,267
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3/21/2016 12:48:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 9:37:11 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 3/20/2016 1:31:55 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

This is idiotic if claimed; "because a book says so." However, you can read a book a scientist wrote which later becomes fact...

True, but then it became fact through external factors. For example the Icelandic Sagas told of Leif Erikson travelling by boat to North America in the 1000s. It didn't become true until archaeologists found evidence in Canada saying Vikings were present there on that time.

I've however seen religious people who have been using the holy books solely as an proof of their religion being true. By that token, any religion could do the same and they would be all true.

I agree. I don't understand what mental blocks generations have in their mental capacity that they can't see this also... It is very clear there are no religions that are true to the capacity their followers want it to be. It's also clear at that point as well... what i mean is, spirituality covers everyone, not just a group. They should already see the flaw in that for starters... among so many more that just take a little time of pondering with reason and logic.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 12:09:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book

http://russellkorets.files.wordpress.com...

2. The Bible is way too specific in some places to seem like a fiction

"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

If that was a fiction, the writer would have only included details that would progress the story. Particularly in the 1st century.

3. What motives would they have for making it up? It got most of the people involved killed.

Joseph Smith wrote that he received the Book of Mormon on golden plates buried in a box. He was directed to this box by an angel and had to translate it himself from Egyptian. That sounds suspiciously like a miracle to me. True or false?
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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3/21/2016 8:23:59 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/21/2016 12:09:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book

http://russellkorets.files.wordpress.com...

2. The Bible is way too specific in some places to seem like a fiction

"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

If that was a fiction, the writer would have only included details that would progress the story. Particularly in the 1st century.

3. What motives would they have for making it up? It got most of the people involved killed.


Joseph Smith wrote that he received the Book of Mormon on golden plates buried in a box. He was directed to this box by an angel and had to translate it himself from Egyptian. That sounds suspiciously like a miracle to me. True or false?

if aliens arrived and had technology that could duplicate any or all of jesus' miracles would you believe that they were your god?
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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3/21/2016 9:06:14 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/21/2016 12:09:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book

http://russellkorets.files.wordpress.com...

2. The Bible is way too specific in some places to seem like a fiction

"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

If that was a fiction, the writer would have only included details that would progress the story. Particularly in the 1st century.

3. What motives would they have for making it up? It got most of the people involved killed.


Joseph Smith wrote that he received the Book of Mormon on golden plates buried in a box. He was directed to this box by an angel and had to translate it himself from Egyptian. That sounds suspiciously like a miracle to me. True or false?

All these three arguments could surely be done for pretty much any religion. Especially Islam.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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3/21/2016 9:25:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/21/2016 12:09:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book

http://russellkorets.files.wordpress.com...

How is that relevant? The Bible was collated in the 4th century. If the stories within it are hearsay, they remain hearsay no matter how well preserved they are.

Besides there is clear evidence of tampering. The short and long endings of Mark are a good example. There are many other instances of interpolation. Your assertion doesn't stack up.

2. The Bible is way too specific in some places to seem like a fiction

"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

If that was a fiction, the writer would have only included details that would progress the story. Particularly in the 1st century.

Is this a joke? If there is a specific number in a Harry Potter novel then it is evidence that it is not fiction? Come on.

3. What motives would they have for making it up? It got most of the people involved killed.

Got who killed? We don't even know who the authors of the gospels were so you can't possibly know if they were killed. (Not that it would prove anything anyway). In fact the gospels aren't even mentioned by name until the late 2nd century so the names assigned to them cannot possibly relate to apostolic times as you allude. The names assigned were arbitrary and designed only to lend them some authority.

Joseph Smith wrote that he received the Book of Mormon on golden plates buried in a box. He was directed to this box by an angel and had to translate it himself from Egyptian. That sounds suspiciously like a miracle to me. True or false?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/21/2016 9:40:49 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book
You Fail!

Griesbach:
"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."

Hug:
"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"

Colwell:
"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons."

Ehrman:
Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,211
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3/21/2016 3:47:58 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:02:51 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 3:48:09 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

Which one, the magic man or the historical one?

The one who claimed to be God, and put forward some pretty convincing reasons why.
Oh you mean the magic man myth.
Whatever, have you met my mate the Leprechaun?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Leugen9001
Posts: 495
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3/21/2016 5:55:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:56:19 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/20/2016 10:47:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 3/20/2016 9:52:43 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 3/19/2016 1:01:09 PM, occams.rzr wrote:
No anecdotes (personal events)
No long commentaries.
Use scientific evidence.
Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

Jesus.

If Jesus is God then this is circular logic. (The proof of God is Jesus but Jesus is God so you have God as proof of himself).

Jesus showed that he was god by the miracles he did. Stop assuming that all arguments for religion are circular.

It's still circular since you'd need to asusme that the recordings in the Bible are accurate.
:) nac
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/22/2016 7:34:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 9:06:14 AM, Jovian wrote:
All these three arguments could surely be done for pretty much any religion. Especially Islam.

At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
Because something is written in a book, it is true? All you have is hearsay.

1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book

http://russellkorets.files.wordpress.com...

Quran:

It was controlled by one person, the khalifa (as evidenced by Uthman's ability to recall all the manuscripts).

It was uniformly revised by Uthman.

During this time, if any error crept into the manuscript which would serve as the official text, this error would only be detectable by comparing it to previous manuscripts.

Unfortunately, all the previous manuscripts were put to the flames.

2. The Bible is way too specific in some places to seem like a fiction

"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

If that was a fiction, the writer would have only included details that would progress the story. Particularly in the 1st century.

3. What motives would they have for making it up? It got most of the people involved killed.

Who got killed for being Muslim in its first days?
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/22/2016 7:36:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 9:40:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/21/2016 8:00:06 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
1. We can be more certain that the Bibles we have are original than any other book
You Fail!

Griesbach:
"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."

Hug:
"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"

Colwell:
"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons."

Ehrman:
Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.

They've obviously never looked at any other classical text. And it would appear that some of them have come to their conclusion by assuming that God doesn't exist. Which would, if true, be a circular argument on your side.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11