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Religion Must Be Irrational

s-anthony
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3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.
tarantula
Posts: 854
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3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.
bulproof
Posts: 25,225
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3/19/2016 3:13:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious
Define the difference.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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3/19/2016 3:54:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

This seems similar to your other thread http://www.debate.org... and has the same issues with 'spirit/spirituality' having any meaning,
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/19/2016 5:38:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

Depends on whose logic you're trusting.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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3/19/2016 6:03:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Who defines what is rational and what is not and how do you know?
janesix
Posts: 3,460
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3/19/2016 6:23:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

The same is true for those who believe in the Big Bang, or quantum mechanics.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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3/19/2016 6:28:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:03:46 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Who defines what is rational and what is not

Thus far, humans.

and how do you know?

Well, if you have evidence of something other than humans defining something, please, lets see it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/19/2016 10:46:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Irrational thought is not a virtue has no real value. A child may feel joy about the idea of Santa delivering gifts but their belief is not rooted in truth. For that individual to transcend to their full potential, they must view the world, and themselves, with clarity.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/19/2016 10:48:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:38:46 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

Depends on whose logic you're trusting.

As an ex-Christian, I was taught to surrender my own logic and follow someone else's "logic".

I'll use my own logic, thank you.
LittleBallofHATE
Posts: 284
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3/19/2016 10:59:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

The tomb is empty. He has risen. It's no fairy tale.
I would agree with you, but then we'd BOTH be wrong.
LittleBallofHATE
Posts: 284
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3/19/2016 11:09:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 10:48:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:38:46 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

Depends on whose logic you're trusting.

As an ex-Christian, I was taught to surrender my own logic and follow someone else's "logic".

I'll use my own logic, thank you.

You were taught wrong. Jesus told us to search the Scriptures. He said nothing about being a brainless twit.
I would agree with you, but then we'd BOTH be wrong.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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3/19/2016 11:56:16 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Before you conclude Religion must be irrational you should read the outer limits we have reached, what science, reason and mathematics cannot tell us and why we have to look beyond the borders of reason to see what, if anything, is out there.

"The Outer Limit of Reason
What Science, Mathematics, and Logic Cannot Tell Us.
https://mitpress.mit.edu...
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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3/20/2016 12:33:33 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 10:48:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:38:46 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

Depends on whose logic you're trusting.

As an ex-Christian, I was taught to surrender my own logic and follow someone else's "logic".

I'll use my own logic, thank you.

How do you know you are not a deluded irrationalist who misperceives himself as being logical?
tarantula
Posts: 854
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3/20/2016 8:54:25 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 10:59:06 PM, LittleBallofHATE wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:47:54 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Far better to rely on logic than fairy tales, imo.

The tomb is empty. He has risen. It's no fairy tale.

Yeh right, and your evidence for that is?
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/20/2016 8:58:51 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious

Define the difference.

One's perspective.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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3/20/2016 9:55:56 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 8:54:25 AM, tarantula wrote:
Yeh right, and your evidence for that is?

Some of the most verifiable histories from the first century.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/20/2016 7:40:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:23:26 PM, janesix wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

The same is true for those who believe in the Big Bang, or quantum mechanics.

I completely agree.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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3/21/2016 3:57:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
For religion to dominate throughout human history and command the attention of over 5 billion people even today speaks volumes of its deep entrenchment in rational thought. People only believe in things that are useful to them and that is perfectly practical and rational. Religion must be useful to humans for it to have survived our social evolution and the test of time.
Even evolutionists Dawkins concedes that evolution confers an advantage on the believer or it would have disappeared a long time ago. So what is so irrational about Religion?
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/21/2016 8:17:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Irrational thought is not a virtue has no real value.

You may say irrational thought is not a virtue, however the truth is we use irrational thinking to establish our sense of morality. The assumption is those things we value are the objects of our desires. For instance, if we desire honesty, then honesty is one of our values. However, our values do not come from the objects of our desires but the desires, themselves. If I had no desire for something, neither would there be a sense of value. To illustrate, if I were adequately satiated, I would not be hungry; I would have no desire for food. The sense of value is an appreciation of the desire, not the object of the desire, itself. In fact, without desire, in having a pure sense of apathy, there is no appreciation of anything. The world may be full of things; there may be treasures galore; however, without desire, it is nothing more than stuff. Our desires are based on wants, in other words, those things we are lacking. Appreciation is not found in having but in wanting. Our rationality has made the assumption only having more things in our possession will lead to greater appreciation; it has led us on a wild goose chase in the acquisition of things to increase our sense of self worth. Our rationality has been extremely irrational. Not until we realize value is not found in things but desires and desires are found in wantings will we realize a greater sense of value and appreciation.
s-anthony
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3/22/2016 1:06:36 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
As an ex-Christian, I was taught to surrender my own logic and follow someone else's "logic".

I think people who surrender their own logic do not really have strong
rationales for believing that which they believe. I believe they are more content to follow instinct and intuition than anything else. Making sense of the world is overruled by accepting mere correlations rather than cause and effect. This is the reason I believe they are attracted to religions, superstitions, prejudices, assumptions, intuitions, hate groups, and spirituality. Having faith in something and relying on instinct is not guided by reason.

I don't believe anyone is completely logical and neither do I believe anyone is an absolute believer. I believe there is a spectrum of faith and reason. Some people are more reasonable in their thinking while others take things on faith.
s-anthony
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3/22/2016 1:18:22 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 11:56:16 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/19/2016 2:43:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
It is not enough for the believer to believe in one's quest for spirituality; the believer must have faith not in that which is reasonable, but in that which is unreasonable. In other words, the believer must believe in that which does not make sense.

To the logical mind, this is foolish, and rightly so. For, reason looks for patterns; and, any discrepancy in a sequence of events beyond the scope of predictability, namely, an anomaly, is at best held suspect. It is not to be trusted. The rational mind does not see religion as being spiritual but, rather, as being superstitious. To believe in contradiction or a deviation from that which is natural is a misstep in logic.

However statistically improbable an anomaly might be, anomalies exist; contradictions exist; deviations and discrepancies exist; that which is chaotic, and disordered, exists; that which is irrational, and unreasonable, exists. The mind is not complete if it does not take into account a need for that which is unreasonable. The logical mind that suppresses disorder, a cosmos which does not have its chaos is slanted and bias.

Once a phenomenon has its cause, it is taken from the realm of the spirit and placed in the realm of the mundane.

Before you conclude Religion must be irrational you should read the outer limits we have reached, what science, reason and mathematics cannot tell us and why we have to look beyond the borders of reason to see what, if anything, is out there.

"The Outer Limit of Reason
What Science, Mathematics, and Logic Cannot Tell Us.
https://mitpress.mit.edu...

Sounds interesting.

Right now, I'm reading Modern Man in Search of a Soul, by Carl Jung. Next, I'd like to study Kabbalah.