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Okay, so lets clear something up

innomen
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11/13/2010 8:10:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Simply stating, and Zets are you paying attention? Geo, are you ready to correct me?

The teachings of Christ =/= the teachings of Christianity.

Although the teachings of Christianity vary from denomination to denomination, i have yet to find one that is solely dedicated to the teachings of Christ, and have them prioritized as Christ would prioritize them. Christ never said 'The only way to the Father is through me, and you have to take this test - here's your #2 pencil and bring it back to me when you're done.'; nope. He never said, 'by the way, d'ya here i walked on water? and if you don't believe it you're out of the club'. Nope. He never said, 'yeah i'll have a bacon cheese burger'. Nope.

So we ask what is a real Christian?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2010 8:13:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
A real Christian would be someone who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple. Even someone who believed this but did terrible things (not following the teachings of Christ) would still be a Christian, as we know Christians do terrible things all the time.
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/13/2010 8:17:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wow, very interesting.

Christ is the Word of God incarnate, not God Himself. Synonymous with God, but not quite God.

Christ is a message. A real Christian is someone who is as decent and forgiving to everyone else as he or she would like to the world to be as a result of following God's Word.

Again, awesome topic.
Mirza
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11/13/2010 8:27:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:13:14 AM, theLwerd wrote:
A real Christian would be someone who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple. Even someone who believed this but did terrible things (not following the teachings of Christ) would still be a Christian, as we know Christians do terrible things all the time.
Not true in any way.
Danielle
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11/13/2010 8:28:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:17:59 AM, Ren wrote:
Wow, very interesting.

Christ is the Word of God incarnate, not God Himself. Synonymous with God, but not quite God.

Hehe, semantics. That's what I was trying to say. A Christian believes Jesus = God.

Christ is a message. A real Christian is someone who is as decent and forgiving to everyone else as he or she would like to the world to be as a result of following God's Word.

This I don't agree with. A "real" Christian? I know plenty of undecent Christians lol. Plenty of people have raped, maimed and killed in the name of Christianity too. Whether misguided or not, I don't think it's fair to say they weren't Christian just because they may have done some terrible things. I think this is a good topic too -- but I think the answer is pretty clear. Each denomination accepts different things and has different rules, but the basic concept is the same: Jesus is Lord.

I think there are some underlying things that MOST Christians accept, such as the events of Jesus' life and death, including his resurrection. However I think as soon as someone acknowledges Jesus as God, they're Christian.
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Mirza
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11/13/2010 8:30:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:10:05 AM, innomen wrote:
Simply stating, and Zets are you paying attention? Geo, are you ready to correct me?

The teachings of Christ =/= the teachings of Christianity.

Although the teachings of Christianity vary from denomination to denomination, i have yet to find one that is solely dedicated to the teachings of Christ, and have them prioritized as Christ would prioritize them. Christ never said 'The only way to the Father is through me, and you have to take this test - here's your #2 pencil and bring it back to me when you're done.'; nope. He never said, 'by the way, d'ya here i walked on water? and if you don't believe it you're out of the club'. Nope. He never said, 'yeah i'll have a bacon cheese burger'. Nope.

So we ask what is a real Christian?
You are simplifying it.

Jesus (peace be upon him) commanded that people follow his ways. A Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ. When Jesus said that nobody goes to God but through him, he meant that one must accept his commands, and who he was - namely a miraculous person. Believing in his miracles is undeniably a command in the Bible. The fact that he was how he was is a miracle. And the fact that Christians choose to believe in one miracle and not another is sign of weak belief in Jesus' words.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2010 8:30:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:27:30 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:13:14 AM, theLwerd wrote:
A real Christian would be someone who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple. Even someone who believed this but did terrible things (not following the teachings of Christ) would still be a Christian, as we know Christians do terrible things all the time.
Not true in any way.

K, you disagree. Good for you. Now here's the part where you say all kinds of stupid things and then cower away from a debate because you can't defend them. Let's agree to disagree and just ignore each other, because I don't have the patience to deal with your inability to make a decent argument. No one can.
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Ren
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11/13/2010 8:32:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:28:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:17:59 AM, Ren wrote:
Wow, very interesting.

Christ is the Word of God incarnate, not God Himself. Synonymous with God, but not quite God.

Hehe, semantics. That's what I was trying to say. A Christian believes Jesus = God.

Christ is a message. A real Christian is someone who is as decent and forgiving to everyone else as he or she would like to the world to be as a result of following God's Word.

This I don't agree with. A "real" Christian? I know plenty of undecent Christians lol. Plenty of people have raped, maimed and killed in the name of Christianity too. Whether misguided or not, I don't think it's fair to say they weren't Christian just because they may have done some terrible things. I think this is a good topic too -- but I think the answer is pretty clear. Each denomination accepts different things and has different rules, but the basic concept is the same: Jesus is Lord.

I think there are some underlying things that MOST Christians accept, such as the events of Jesus' life and death, including his resurrection. However I think as soon as someone acknowledges Jesus as God, they're Christian.

I think what Innomen was getting at is that a real Christian should be someone that devoutly follows Christ's message, the Gospel, rather than some mass of political contrivances that make up religion.

In which case, a "real" Christian would be someone who "loves (his or her) neighbor as (he or she) loves (him or herself)" as a result of "acknowledging that Christ is the word of God."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/13/2010 8:33:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:30:52 AM, theLwerd wrote:
K, you disagree. Good for you. Now here's the part where you say all kinds of stupid things and then cower away from a debate because you can't defend them. Let's agree to disagree and just ignore each other, because I don't have the patience to deal with your inability to make a decent argument. No one can.
Please deal with your fear of people disagreeing with you.

Let us debate where Jesus said that if you do not believe that he is God, you are not a Christian. Thank you.
mattrodstrom
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11/13/2010 8:33:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:33:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
I'm a christian

lol
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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11/13/2010 8:35:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:33:56 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:33:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
I'm a christian

lol

and, yes...

you never said any such thing...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/13/2010 8:35:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:34:18 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:33:56 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:33:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
I'm a christian

lol
Not at all, God forbid.

lol
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2010 8:36:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:33:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:30:52 AM, theLwerd wrote:
K, you disagree. Good for you. Now here's the part where you say all kinds of stupid things and then cower away from a debate because you can't defend them. Let's agree to disagree and just ignore each other, because I don't have the patience to deal with your inability to make a decent argument. No one can.
Please deal with your fear of people disagreeing with you.

Disagreeing with me isn't the problem. However if you do so very vehemently, you should have the balls to man up and defend your beliefs. I do, you don't. You will disagree with me on 10 things and then cherry pick the 2 you are willing to defend. It's BS.

Let us debate where Jesus said that if you do not believe that he is God, you are not a Christian. Thank you.

I haven't studied the bible thoroughly enough to know what Jesus said and did not say at every juncture. However lol at you right away implementing your Muslim propaganda and saying why Jesus isn't God. I don't believe that Jesus was God either, but notice that I'm not trying to DEBATE that but merely reflect what the Christian view is. You're not talking about what the Christian view IS; you're talking about what you think it SHOULD BE.
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Mirza
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11/13/2010 8:44:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:36:52 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Disagreeing with me isn't the problem. However if you do so very vehemently, you should have the balls to man up and defend your beliefs. I do, you don't. You will disagree with me on 10 things and then cherry pick the 2 you are willing to defend. It's BS.
I always defend my beliefs. Your frustration over people disagreeing with you is clear. It is such a weakness. See for yourself how you disagree with any resistance in such an arrogant way, be it disagreeing with me or anyone else. Browse the forums.

I haven't studied the bible thoroughly enough to know what Jesus said and did not say at every juncture. However lol at you right away implementing your Muslim propaganda and saying why Jesus isn't God. I don't believe that Jesus was God either, but notice that I'm not trying to DEBATE that but merely reflect what the Christian view is. You're not talking about what the Christian view IS; you're talking about what you think it SHOULD BE.
You said that a real Christian would be "one who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple." First of all, not all Christians agree - see non-trinitarians, and second of all, we need evidence, and Jesus never made such evidence apparent at all, which is why I disagree when you say that a real Christian is one who believes that Jesus is God. This has nothing to do with my Muslim view because I am clearly talking about where Jesus said something in the Bible, not the Qur'an.

To cut it short: A Christian is a follower of Christ, and he can very well be non-trinitarian. wjmelements is a non-trinitarian, for example. He is still a Christian.
innomen
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11/13/2010 9:05:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:13:14 AM, theLwerd wrote:
A real Christian would be someone who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple. Even someone who believed this but did terrible things (not following the teachings of Christ) would still be a Christian, as we know Christians do terrible things all the time.

Do you think Christ would say that this is a follower of mine?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/13/2010 9:10:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:10:05 AM, innomen wrote:
Simply stating, and Zets are you paying attention? Geo, are you ready to correct me?

The teachings of Christ =/= the teachings of Christianity.


And that is why Christianity is sh1t.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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11/13/2010 9:12:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:10:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/13/2010 8:10:05 AM, innomen wrote:
Simply stating, and Zets are you paying attention? Geo, are you ready to correct me?

The teachings of Christ =/= the teachings of Christianity.


And that is why Christianity is sh1t.

I wouldn't go that far, well in some cases i might, but like so much in life, you take what you need and leave the rest.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2010 9:23:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 8:44:33 AM, Mirza wrote:
I always defend my beliefs. Your frustration over people disagreeing with you is clear. It is such a weakness. See for yourself how you disagree with any resistance in such an arrogant way, be it disagreeing with me or anyone else. Browse the forums.

Mirza, you believe that if you grant marriage rights to homosexuals, that it logically follows marriage rights should also be granted to pedophiles. This is just one of MANY examples of things you will NOT debate with me. Arguing, name calling and trading insults in the forums is not debating. If you won't officially debate it, then it seems you rely on these tactics meaning you're not actually defending anything -- at least not formally. This is your weakness, not mine. Moreover I'm not the only one who "disagrees with resistance" yet I see you calling out no one else, including yourself, who is among the most arrogant and condescending members here. It must be nice to have such a high opinion of yourself that you actually think you're above me when it comes to being close-minded against ideas you simply disagree with. Nevertheless, here's a perfect example of what I was trying to avoid, hence why it's preferable to just ignore you all-together.

You said that a real Christian would be "one who believed in Jesus' divinity as God in the human form - plain and simple." First of all, not all Christians agree - see non-trinitarians,

I'd never heard of non-trinitarians, but in looking them up, LOL -- what a brilliant way to avoid the contradictions! Just to reject that Jesus is God all-together, hehe, that's rich! I'm genuinely impressed by this sect of Christians who has discovered a whole new way of justifying their silly beliefs.

and second of all, we need evidence, and Jesus never made such evidence apparent at all, which is why I disagree when you say that a real Christian is one who believes that Jesus is God. This has nothing to do with my Muslim view because I am clearly talking about where Jesus said something in the Bible, not the Qur'an.

Where does the Bible define what a Christian is?

To cut it short: A Christian is a follower of Christ, and he can very well be non-trinitarian. wjmelements is a non-trinitarian, for example. He is still a Christian.

Indeed I was ignorant to this sect - that's interesting. However you're going to have a hard time defining "follower" of Christ. That can't only refer to people who are Christ-like, because most Christians I know are NOT Christ-like. If you say they only have to believe that following Jesus is good, it gets fishy, because even I can acknowledge that the Jesus of the Bible was allegedly a good guy who did good things... but that doesn't mean he's the Messiah, or that we should worship him even if we want to "follow in his footsteps" and learn him him. There has to be a distinction somewhere that regards Jesus as a holy figure and not just a decent person.

Ps. You could have pointed out non-trinitarians from the get-go, instead of instigating this conversation with "Not true in any way." This is a perfect example of you coming off hostile and arrogant, though you're too blinded by your own moral superiority to see that you're guilty of the same tone.
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Danielle
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11/13/2010 9:23:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:12:37 AM, innomen wrote:
I wouldn't go that far, well in some cases i might, but like so much in life, you take what you need and leave the rest.

THAT'S why Christianity is sh!t.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/13/2010 9:31:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:23:23 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Mirza, you believe that if you grant marriage rights to homosexuals, that it logically follows marriage rights should also be granted to pedophiles.

That way everyone is happy, it's a win-win situation.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
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11/13/2010 9:36:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:23:23 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Mirza, you believe that if you grant marriage rights to homosexuals, that it logically follows marriage rights should also be granted to pedophiles. This is just one of MANY examples of things you will NOT debate with me. Arguing, name calling and trading insults in the forums is not debating. If you won't officially debate it, then it seems you rely on these tactics meaning you're not actually defending anything -- at least not formally. This is your weakness, not mine. Moreover I'm not the only one who "disagrees with resistance" yet I see you calling out no one else, including yourself, who is among the most arrogant and condescending members here. It must be nice to have such a high opinion of yourself that you actually think you're above me when it comes to being close-minded against ideas you simply disagree with. Nevertheless, here's a perfect example of what I was trying to avoid, hence why it's preferable to just ignore you all-together.
I have worded my statements vaguely sometimes regarding that issue you mention, but I mentioned other consensual acts, not only pedophilia, which still make my case right. I know you believe in your own moral system, I believe in mine, and the reason why you disagree with me is because you do not follow my moral system. I do, and many consensual acts are forbidden, and there is a good reason for that. Also, I am not calling you arrogant at all. I am saying that the way you face resistance is an arrogant way. It does not mean that you are arrogant. I also did not only call your ways of arguing arrogant.

I'd never heard of non-trinitarians, but in looking them up, LOL -- what a brilliant way to avoid the contradictions! Just to reject that Jesus is God all-together, hehe, that's rich! I'm genuinely impressed by this sect of Christians who has discovered a whole new way of justifying their silly beliefs.
Jehovah's Witnesses are also non-trinitarian.

Where does the Bible define what a Christian is?
I usually make myself clear on this position; the Bible is vague at many places. By the definition itself, a "Christian" is a follower of "Christ." That is how the Bible names Christians, namely those who follow Christ. But many issues are unresolved.

Indeed I was ignorant to this sect - that's interesting. However you're going to have a hard time defining "follower" of Christ. That can't only refer to people who are Christ-like, because most Christians I know are NOT Christ-like. If you say they only have to believe that following Jesus is good, it gets fishy, because even I can acknowledge that the Jesus of the Bible was allegedly a good guy who did good things... but that doesn't mean he's the Messiah, or that we should worship him even if we want to "follow in his footsteps" and learn him him. There has to be a distinction somewhere that regards Jesus as a holy figure and not just a decent person.
I know, and I do not think that anyone has a clear definition of "Christian." But by the definition itself, a Christian is a follower of Christ. Now, whether one is a true follower or not is the real question, and that is very complex to answer.

Ps. You could have pointed out non-trinitarians from the get-go, instead of instigating this conversation with "Not true in any way." This is a perfect example of you coming off hostile and arrogant, though you're too blinded by your own moral superiority to see that you're guilty of the same tone.
You are imagining me in a harsh way, which is not my fault. When I write, "Not true in any way," you might take it as, "NOT TRUE IN ANY WAY!" instead of, as I meant, "Not true, actually..."
Mirza
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11/13/2010 9:43:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?
Because at tonnes of places in the Bible, Jesus raised God's status far above his own. He even prayed to God, told people that he cannot do anything if God does not will it, etc.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/13/2010 9:44:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?

Because they believe in Jesus as the son/chief prophet of God and presume that they follow him.

I beleive that the Goths were converted to Arian Christianity, which is I believe non-trinitarian.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2010 9:51:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:43:51 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?
Because at tonnes of places in the Bible, Jesus raised God's status far above his own. He even prayed to God, told people that he cannot do anything if God does not will it, etc.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed, that he was born from a virgin, that he was a miracle worker, etc. They believe he was holy but they don't believe he was God. Well if non-trinitarians believe Jesus was holy, but not God, then why do they consider themselves Christian for instance instead of Muslim, Jewish or anything else? Why do they consider Jesus worth calling themselves Christian over if they merely believe he is one of many prophets, miracle workers, etc?
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innomen
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11/13/2010 9:53:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:51:21 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:43:51 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?
Because at tonnes of places in the Bible, Jesus raised God's status far above his own. He even prayed to God, told people that he cannot do anything if God does not will it, etc.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed, that he was born from a virgin, that he was a miracle worker, etc. They believe he was holy but they don't believe he was God. Well if non-trinitarians believe Jesus was holy, but not God, then why do they consider themselves Christian for instance instead of Muslim, Jewish or anything else? Why do they consider Jesus worth calling themselves Christian over if they merely believe he is one of many prophets, miracle workers, etc?

Because above all things they are a follower of Him and His message.
Danielle
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11/13/2010 9:53:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:44:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?

Because they believe in Jesus as the son/chief prophet of God and presume that they follow him.

Lol, oookay. So Jesus is just a good role model?
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Mirza
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11/13/2010 9:54:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:51:21 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:43:51 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?
Because at tonnes of places in the Bible, Jesus raised God's status far above his own. He even prayed to God, told people that he cannot do anything if God does not will it, etc.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed, that he was born from a virgin, that he was a miracle worker, etc. They believe he was holy but they don't believe he was God. Well if non-trinitarians believe Jesus was holy, but not God, then why do they consider themselves Christian for instance instead of Muslim, Jewish or anything else? Why do they consider Jesus worth calling themselves Christian over if they merely believe he is one of many prophets, miracle workers, etc?
Muslims believe in the Qur'an, and Jews reject the message of Jesus.
innomen
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11/13/2010 9:56:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/13/2010 9:53:18 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:44:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/13/2010 9:41:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Why do non-trinitarians consider themselves Christian?

Because they believe in Jesus as the son/chief prophet of God and presume that they follow him.

Lol, oookay. So Jesus is just a good role model?

Unitarians would say yeah, something like that. However, other denominations still can have him as a savior, but the word means something different. My current understanding, or acceptance of the word savior is probably different than Zet's.