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Islam & Mormonism - Pt 2

the-good-teacher
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11/14/2010 1:24:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The second ten.
11.
Muslims claim that the Qur'an "support and perfects" the Bible by clarifying it.
Latter-day Saints call the Book of Mormon "Another witness or another testament of Jesus Christ," and believe it too, clarifies, or completes the Bible.
12.
But both the Qur'an and the Book of Mormon, while claiming to support the Bible, actually contradict it, thereby placing their believers in the position to choose between the two.
The result?
Muslims choose the Qur'an and Mormons choose the BOM – hands down.
This is the primary aim of ALL counterfeit faiths.
13.
The contradictions found throughout the teaching of Muhammad are written off by Islamic apologists as "abrogations," meaning later revelations of God supersede prior ones.
Within Mormonism, the same game is played as it is accepted that "a living prophet trumps a dead one" and the earlier revelations of Joseph Smith which contradict later ones are seen as only stepping stones in the spiritual growth of the man.
14.
The Qur'an actually teaches and testifies of the coming of Muhammad, and Muhammad actually rewrote parts of the Bible so that it, too, testified of his coming and ministry.
The Book of Mormon actually teaches and testifies of the coming of Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith actually rewrote parts of the Bible so that it too, testified of his coming and ministry!
15.
Where the Qur'an acts as the theological framework of Islam, the Sunnah actually shapes at least 80% of the Muslims life and faith.
So too with the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants as the Book of Mormon could be seen as the core to faith, but the Doctrine and Covenants actually describes most of what is done within the administration of Mormon life and religion.
16.
Muslims accuse the Jews and Christians of tampering with the Bible (especially in order to remove prophesies that spoke of Muhammad) and therefore consider the Bible to be corrupted. This led to Islam altering doctrine relative to the uniqueness of Jesus, His teachings, His person, and His atoning work.
Mormonism accused the early translators of the Bible – in particular the Catholics – of also tampering with the "plain and precious" truth contained therein and therefore consider the Bible unreliable. This led Mormonism to ultimately alter doctrine relative to the uniqueness of Jesus, His teachings, His person, and His atoning work.
17.
In Islam, all non-Muslim's are enemies to Allah, and their response – especially to Jews and Christians – is one of violence.
While physical violence is not the norm in Mormonism today, non-LDS outsiders in Brigham Young's day were treated with a similar contempt – including violence.
18.
In a similar vein, Islam believes that all people on earth are born Muslims, and when they find or discover the eternal truths about the faith, they do not "convert," but instead "revert" to what they had always been but just forgot to know.
Those who have not reverted stand in a state of rebellion to Allah. When someone does "revert" there is great joy in the ranks and that person is welcomed "home."
Similarly, Latter-day Saints embrace the idea that all of the human race is in fact in possession of the truth from a united pre-mortal existence, and are said to have "re-discovered, found, or had the veil lifted" from their minds when they embrace the Father's plan and become LDS in this life.
19.
Joseph Smith, and thus Mormonism today, taught that the LDS gospel has been known and practiced from the beginning of recorded history; and that all prophets from the past, were tacitly, Mormon. One man recently told a group of LDS kids here in Salt Lake City that Jesus was Mormon.
Naturally, Islam teaches that all of the Old Testament prophets were tacitly Islam and they all preached Islam. Jesus is also included in this group.
20.
Islam has had a long and abiding desire to both convert the world and to then rule over it. Sura 7:158 tells them that all people need to be "brought back to Islam . . . by every means necessary."
Islam divides the world into two great territories: the Land of Islam and the Land of War.
So too Mormonism, from its foundations, has also longed to both convert the world . . . and then to rule over it.
Previous programs have provided AMPLE examples of this ambition.
At the same time, Mormonism has long broken the world down into two polarized groups – members and non-members, those who live in Zion (Utah) and those who live in the Mission Field (the equivalent to the Islamic "Land of War.")
21.
Islamic law declares that insulting the prophet Muhammad is equal to insulting Allah since they are respected as representing one another.
In some Islamic countries, like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, disrespecting or refuting Muhammad is worthy of an immediate public execution.
When Brigham Young settled Utah, the people who followed Him found themselves under similar religious fervency. To question or deny the faith, Brigham Young, or the prophet Joseph Smith could lead to death, but always lead to people being wholly rejected by family, friends, and community at large.
Today, and though not nearly as extreme, the fact remains that to disrespect either Joseph Smith Jr. and/or "the living prophet" is certain ground for being a social outcast – even to the point of having your high School English teacher give you a C for speaking your opinion in paper that calls for opinion.
It is my simple opinion that if and when Mormonism gets to the same number of members as Islam, and maintains its economic status in the world, it will return to the extremist ways of Brigham Young and flex its muscle on any who challenge or question it.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/14/2010 1:27:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Spam spam spam spam....

Anyways...

Here is the troll line.
________________________________________________________________
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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1/2/2011 5:42:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hi, there is a lot written here (and I looked through your previous posting as well)...there are certainly pleny of things to comment on...I will just start with a couple I suppose:

11.
Muslims claim that the Qur'an "support and perfects" the Bible by clarifying it.
Latter-day Saints call the Book of Mormon "Another witness or another testament of Jesus Christ," and believe it too, clarifies, or completes the Bible.

I am LDS and I do agree that that is a fairly accurate statement. The Book of Mormon IS another testament of Jesus Christ. and it does actually clarify a lot of things in the Bible.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

The Book of Mormon is the 2nd witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God!
http://lds.org...

----------
12.
But both the Qur'an and the Book of Mormon, while claiming to support the Bible, actually contradict it, thereby placing their believers in the position to choose between the two.
The result?
Muslims choose the Qur'an and Mormons choose the BOM – hands down.
This is the primary aim of ALL counterfeit faiths.

I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?

------------

13.
The contradictions found throughout the teaching of Muhammad are written off by Islamic apologists as "abrogations," meaning later revelations of God supersede prior ones.
Within Mormonism, the same game is played as it is accepted that "a living prophet trumps a dead one" and the earlier revelations of Joseph Smith which contradict later ones are seen as only stepping stones in the spiritual growth of the man.

Modern and Continuing Revelation has been on the Earth since the beginning of man. The newer revelation ALWAYS trumps the old revelation...even revelation given from the SAME prophet!
For example Moses: First he told the Israelites that they were supposed to attack a particular nation. But they didn't...so the Israelites were disobeying what they were told.
Then Later they decided to attack that nation...BUT Moses told them NOT to attack them at that time! ...The revelation changed...those who did go through with that attack were not supported by God.

Other revelation changed things...the Mosiac Law was fulfilled through Jesus Christ, and was done away with...the teachings of the earlier prophets on sacrificing rules etc. are not in effect today. ...due to revelation to not do those things now...perhaps later that will change again....See how modern revelation is needed yet?

Also even in the military the "last 'legal' order given" is what is by law to be obeyed and followed.

Also consider even a parent disciplining a child:
Parent: (to child) "You are grounded, go to your room now!"
Child: Ok (and heads to room, but throws toy on ground)
Parent: Pick up that toy now!
Child: I can't you told me to go to my room now...

it is always the NEWEST revelation that takes precedence right!?

So that is why it is so important to know who is in possession of and is giving out the most current revelation from God. The only Church on the face of the Earth with a living prophet and apostles is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/4/2011 4:38:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/2/2011 6:05:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
Not true.

Responding to copy-paste is not in my favor.

Shame, you might have learned something and leave your false religion !
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 12:26:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 4:38:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Shame, you might have learned something and leave your false religion !
Never. Your adjectives need to be sorted out.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 12:43:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 12:26:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/4/2011 4:38:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Shame, you might have learned something and leave your false religion !
Never. Your adjectives need to be sorted out.

"Never" ? As I said "Shame".
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 12:46:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 12:43:53 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 12:26:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/4/2011 4:38:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Shame, you might have learned something and leave your false religion !
Never. Your adjectives need to be sorted out.

"Never" ? As I said "Shame".
I will never leave the true religion called Islam, especially not when someone calls me to another religion the way you do here. You can't invite someone to love through hate, sorry.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 1:11:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 12:46:31 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/6/2011 12:43:53 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 12:26:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/4/2011 4:38:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Shame, you might have learned something and leave your false religion !
Never. Your adjectives need to be sorted out.

"Never" ? As I said "Shame".
I will never leave the true religion called Islam, especially not when someone calls me to another religion the way you do here. You can't invite someone to love through hate, sorry.

I "call you to another religion" ?, I have not time for religion whatsoever, which religion do you think you have been called to ?
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 1:59:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 1:35:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
Christianity is a religion.

Christianity is a relationship that comes from above through revelation,(Grace) Religion is an organised body of people who come from beneath and attempt to reach up, (Works)

Do you see the difference ? Jesus came from above and so does the relationship.

"Ye are from beneath, I am from above" [John 8:23]
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 2:00:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 1:59:00 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 1:35:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
Christianity is a religion.

Christianity is a relationship that comes from above through revelation,(Grace) Religion is an organised body of people who come from beneath and attempt to reach up, (Works)

Do you see the difference ? Jesus came from above and so does the relationship.

"Ye are from beneath, I am from above" [John 8:23]
I can easily refute you with a Bible quote, but I don't have to because I will have to deal with interpretation upon interpretation, which isn't correct.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 2:05:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:00:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/6/2011 1:59:00 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 1:35:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
Christianity is a religion.

Christianity is a relationship that comes from above through revelation,(Grace) Religion is an organised body of people who come from beneath and attempt to reach up, (Works)

Do you see the difference ? Jesus came from above and so does the relationship.

"Ye are from beneath, I am from above" [John 8:23]
I can easily refute you with a Bible quote, but I don't have to because I will have to deal with interpretation upon interpretation, which isn't correct.

I your quote is correct and in context, the bible will interpret it's self perfectly !
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 2:07:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:05:07 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
I your quote is correct and in context, the bible will interpret it's self perfectly !
Let us see...

[James 1:27] "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 2:50:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:07:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/6/2011 2:05:07 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
I your quote is correct and in context, the bible will interpret it's self perfectly !
Let us see...

[James 1:27] "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

So if this is "pure religion" at it mentions nothing of an organisation, what does that tell you ?
1stLordofTheVenerability
Posts: 53
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1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?

I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 4:21:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:50:11 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 2:07:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/6/2011 2:05:07 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
I your quote is correct and in context, the bible will interpret it's self perfectly !
Let us see...

[James 1:27] "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

So if this is "pure religion" at it mentions nothing of an organisation, what does that tell you ?
That it's a religion - defined or undefined as organization; it doesn't matter.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/6/2011 4:22:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?


I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...
In any case, the Bible doesn't prohibit polygamy.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 4:33:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?


I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...

So the Book of Mormon dovetails perfectly with the bible ?
I can spend all day providing examples of how the book of Mormon contradicts the bible.
Here's one, and one should always be too many !
The Bible affirms that "Aaron and his sons" were the only ones qualified to "wait on their priest's office" (Numbers 3:10) and others of the tribe of Levi were to minister unto the priests (Numbers 3:5-9). Any other tribe which "cometh nigh shall be put to death" (Numbers 3:10).
The Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 5:26, "I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests . . .." These supposed men were descendants of Lehi (1 Nephi 18:7) who was of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 6:14). It seems that Mormonism also "walks in the ways of Jereboam" (cf. 1 Kings 12:31).
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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1/6/2011 11:59:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?


I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...

Well...none of those things you mentioned are actually in the Book of Mormon...
But as far as polygamy, the Bible doesn't forbid that...in fact many of the most notable prophets engaged in it...Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, also David and Solomon.
As far as the D&C scriptures: D&C 28:2-6 was explaining that Oliver Cowdery needed to listen to and take instruction from his Priesthood leader who was Joseph Smith...not try to command him who is at his head.
D&C 130:22 God does have a body of flesh and bones....He is our literal Father...we have been created in His image (like it says in Genesis).
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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1/7/2011 12:42:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 4:33:24 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?


I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...

So the Book of Mormon dovetails perfectly with the bible ?
I can spend all day providing examples of how the book of Mormon contradicts the bible.
Here's one, and one should always be too many !
The Bible affirms that "Aaron and his sons" were the only ones qualified to "wait on their priest's office" (Numbers 3:10) and others of the tribe of Levi were to minister unto the priests (Numbers 3:5-9). Any other tribe which "cometh nigh shall be put to death" (Numbers 3:10).
The Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 5:26, "I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests . . .." These supposed men were descendants of Lehi (1 Nephi 18:7) who was of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 6:14). It seems that Mormonism also "walks in the ways of Jereboam" (cf. 1 Kings 12:31).

That is the kind of question I like! Good Job!
Well first of all in the Bible I would point out that there have been many people who have held the Priesthood who were not of the tribe of Israel!
For example Abraham (who came before Isaac and before Israel (Jacob)) He held the Priesthood and was not of the tribe of Levi...He was Levi's great g. grandfather...so obviously He couldn't be from that tribe...nor could any who lived before the tribe of Levi even existed.
also we can look at other people who held the Priesthood...who weren't of the tribe of Levi...Jesus Christ was of the tribe of Judah. Also Melchizedek held the Priesthood.

At the time the Priesthood line of leadership was being passed on:

"it must be remembered that of all the seed of Abraham whom the Lord chose to bear the keys pertaining to this holy order of Priesthood, the seed of Ephraim, the son of Joseph, were the first and chief. While the tribe of Levi, unto which Moses and Aaron belonged, was specially charged with the administration of affairs of the lesser Priesthood under the law, yet Ephraim, the peculiar and chosen son of Joseph, was the one whom the Lord had named by his own mouth and through the Prophets, to inherit the keys of presidency of this High Priesthood after the order of the Son of God"
http://en.fairmormon.org...

In other words Joseph was chosen....He was the favored son of Israel. And from Joseph ...there were 2 sons...Manasseh and Ephraim...and Lehi came from the line of Manasseh...that is where the Priesthood line of Authority can be traced to. (Lehi = father of Nephi...Nephi consecrated Jacob and Joseph.)

Also in Israel's blessing to his son's we read:
Genesis 49:5¶ Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
6O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
7Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Reuben also forfeited the birthright due to adultery or else he could have held the Priesthood line of Authority...he being the oldest.
the-good-teacher
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1/7/2011 12:56:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 11:59:39 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 1/6/2011 4:11:25 PM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
I disagree! The Book of Mormon does NOT contradict the Bible. Mormons accept the Bible and read it! It is one of the "Standard works of the Church". Perhaps you would like to give an example of what you mean by your statement?


I could perhaps offer a few examples. The Book of Mormon seems to endorse certain beliefs that aren't encouraged in the Bible. Polygamy, and who is this Joe Smith referenced in D&C 28:2-6? D&C 130:22 proclaims that God has bones and flesh like a man? I might mention that the Book contradicts itself, also...

Well...none of those things you mentioned are actually in the Book of Mormon...
But as far as polygamy, the Bible doesn't forbid that...in fact many of the most notable prophets engaged in it...Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, also David and Solomon.
As far as the D&C scriptures: D&C 28:2-6 was explaining that Oliver Cowdery needed to listen to and take instruction from his Priesthood leader who was Joseph Smith...not try to command him who is at his head.
D&C 130:22 God does have a body of flesh and bones....He is our literal Father...we have been created in His image (like it says in Genesis).

The bible states "God is spirit", and we should worship in spirit. - John 4:24
The bible never states God is our "literal father", but it does state we can be adopted.- Rom 8:15
We have been created in his image, Three in one,which is, body - Jesus, spirit - Holy spirit, - soul - father, - Like Jesus was three in one also - Col 2:9 "for in him dweleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily".
(Fulness of the Godhead- nothing missing, one complete God in Jesus)