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Bible Code and Theology

Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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11/15/2010 10:27:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I completely understand most criticism of there really being a code to be found in the bible using ELS method, as I myself am not convinced either for those same reasons and also for the simple fact that prophices are supposed to predict things before they happen, not afterword.

However I thought it might be good for conversation to just consider that the concept of this code and how its supposed to predict things fits all too perfect with free will view of theology. For example I read in Michael Drosnin newest bible code book http://www.worldcat.org... how he tried to determine the next presidential election if Sarah Palin would be Obama's opponent. basically from all the words the show up together and witch cross over who's name, he determined Palin might run but will fail as Obama campaigns as an experienced War time president. the reasons he only felt confident in his code enough to say she might run even though her name is right there in his search, is because all codes legitimateness are based on the probability of the words showing up there by chance. by chance any book is likely to have Obama and Barack show up together useing the ELS method but not Obama, Barack, and President. he calculated the odds of palins name showing up and they were actually good its just in there by chance and Obama might run against anyone else and the code be real.

A book of prophetic that works like that is the perfect kind of prophecy I think. for in the end all predictions can only be said to be 'likely going to be true, but theirs always a chance it will turn out otherwise. the strength behind the prophecies likeliness to unfoil being behind how mathematically significant it's appearance is.

If prophecy could be proven to work like that that would fit perfect with fact of free will interference because there would be no such thing as a prophecy that's 100% set in stone. taking the one mentioned in the book as example, a future was foretold that Obama wins his relection, but if Palin were elected in spite of the prophecy then that's just Free Will botching it all up. The code seemed to indicate that Obama would be assassinated in DC, but Drosnin claims to have warned secret service all that the code had to say on the matter and that was avoided, free will of the code finder interfering with the prophecy told of in the code.

some of you may wish to immediately mention 'well the code itself is still not proven'. well that is true; but can we not agree that the way this coded prophecy is supposedly supposed to work is the perfect ideal for how a real prophecy predicting the future should theologically work? predicting in terms of probability rather than absolutes?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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11/16/2010 10:38:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
bummer, I thought this would make at least a little bit more discussion than this over a day, and yet not one retaliation from Calvinist that because it fits with free will doctrine that that makes this kind of prophecy inherently bad. Instead there is only a Safron video put in place of a comment that I cant listen to because I don't have headphones on me and the library computers don't have speakers.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Trismegistus
Posts: 1
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11/17/2010 11:15:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know much about Bible Code, but I find Kabbalism highly interesting. Bible code seems like a weak attempt at the mastery found in the Hebrew language.
Floid
Posts: 751
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11/18/2010 5:36:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If prophecy could be proven to work like that that would fit perfect with fact of free will interference because there would be no such thing as a prophecy that's 100% set in stone. taking the one mentioned in the book as example, a future was foretold that Obama wins his relection, but if Palin were elected in spite of the prophecy then that's just Free Will botching it all up.

I think the problem with your post as a discussion starter is that it weakly couples two different ideas that are both better approaced independtly. It sounds like you really want to discuss whether absolute knowledge of the future would negate free will. This debate is better addressed through the hypothetical "if an omnipotent God exists and knows my future, does that negate my free will?" which if often debated.

Instead you approach the discussion through the idea of prophecy through "Bible codes" which has a great chance of inducing a different debate about how silly that concept is to begin with (which you seem to admit yourself in your post). The problem is that prophecy in general doesn't negate free will. For example, prophecies of natural disaster has nothing to do with free will.

Instead, you find a prophecy of Obama getting reelected that you state would be violated if Palin got elected instead. Whose free will gets violated in that case? It isn't Obama's free will to get reelected, it is only his free will to run for reelection. He can't will himself to win the vote. That same is true of Palin. The prophecy doesn't name individual voters, so there is no way of assuming that prophecy violates the free will of any individual voter, millions of whom it will take to elect either person, either...

So I don't even know why I am posting this other than I started writing and I might as well follow through now. Your example would be an example of prophecy being wrong, but I don't see it as a good example to use as a basis for discussion on the knowledge of the future/free will debate.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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11/19/2010 8:25:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/18/2010 5:36:27 AM, Floid wrote:
If prophecy could be proven to work like that that would fit perfect with fact of free will interference because there would be no such thing as a prophecy that's 100% set in stone. taking the one mentioned in the book as example, a future was foretold that Obama wins his relection, but if Palin were elected in spite of the prophecy then that's just Free Will botching it all up.

I think the problem with your post as a discussion starter is that it weakly couples two different ideas that are both better approaced independtly. It sounds like you really want to discuss whether absolute knowledge of the future would negate free will. This debate is better addressed through the hypothetical "if an omnipotent God exists and knows my future, does that negate my free will?" which if often debated.
yes, that's basically what I wanted, maybe I should have titled it 'mathematical prophecy'
Instead you approach the discussion through the idea of prophecy through "Bible codes" which has a great chance of inducing a different debate about how silly that concept is to begin with (which you seem to admit yourself in your post). The problem is that prophecy in general doesn't negate free will. For example, prophecies of natural disaster has nothing to do with free will.

Instead, you find a prophecy of Obama getting reelected that you state would be violated if Palin got elected instead. Whose free will gets violated in that case? It isn't Obama's free will to get reelected, it is only his free will to run for reelection. He can't will himself to win the vote. That same is true of Palin. The prophecy doesn't name individual voters, so there is no way of assuming that prophecy violates the free will of any individual voter, millions of whom it will take to elect either person, either...
right, it wouldn't violate obama's will, or any ones will independently.... but if you could suggest a particular person will get elected president by prophecy then you suggest that its predetermined that a mass of peoples wills will choose that candidate and that the canadate will choose to run again. saying an election will only go one way in the future is saying it's predetermined that most people who vote in that country will choose that canadate (obama in this case).
So I don't even know why I am posting this other than I started writing and I might as well follow through now. Your example would be an example of prophecy being wrong, but I don't see it as a good example to use as a basis for discussion on the knowledge of the future/free will debate.

well if it was like a normal prophecy, then yes it would be wrong, as a prophecy that simply says something will or will not happen is either wrong or right. but when when you decide if something in the book is part of the 'code' based on statements like 'there's 40 to 100 chance these letters would appear like this somewhere in the book' or 'there's a 13 in 20345 chance they would show up like this' then all your declarations about the future are based on the chance of something, and being based chance they can never be called absolute declarations of how the future will unfold. they can be on how it will likely unfold, but not how it definitely will.

I don't so much want to discuss if prophecy negates my free will now that I think about it some more, I've read enough of those discussions. I really want to talk about if free will can change the future, a future that you already defined in some way. The future of Schrödinger's cat is equally dead and alive before the event itself unfolds right? couldn't the same quantum physics be used in considering how free will effects our plausible future. And if we choose to look at it like that shouldn't the multiple true futures be based on percentage ratio of how likely they are to occur? There is room to argue it is possible Palin will gain enough political steam to win against Obama in the next election using the bible code books example, but considering all factors its not likely. so at this time we could consider both the future of her as president and Obama as re-elected president as both true futures right now that will, but unlike the cat which was a 50/50 ratio with our next US president it's more like 5/95.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.