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Is God bound by logic?

Chaosism
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3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.
ken1122
Posts: 499
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3/25/2016 3:34:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Make-believe is rarely bound by logic

Ken
Chaosism
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3/25/2016 3:47:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:34:05 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Make-believe is rarely bound by logic

Ken

I don't think I'd entirely agree with that. I think the majority of what we imagine (seriously or for entertainment) would be in logical order to reflect our actual world, making the notion seem more appealing [plausibility]. I've not seen too many fanciful notions that actually defy logic entirely - what we make up is typically arranged in a logical manner based on alternate/false premises, usually knowingly false. For instance, there are virtually no instances of fanciful stories in which a monster is both small and large at the same time or entirely two different colors at the same time.
rextr05
Posts: 215
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3/25/2016 4:47:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

In my opinion, God is not simply logical, God fundamentally is logic, altho logic is subservient to God as being an aspect of God. This follows in the sense that God is existence itself, love itself, beauty itself, etc among other things. This tradition (which follows from an Aquinas approach to God). God possess infinite knowledge, therefore He cannot break laws of logic, which are indeed His own.
nonwo
Posts: 100
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3/25/2016 5:05:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either. : :

If you read this thread, you will learn who you are, logically that is.. http://www.debate.org...
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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3/25/2016 5:12:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Logic is the study of inferences. All of our understanding comes from comparing ideas to each other.

The axioms of Logic are formulated the same way other axioms of systems are generated. We accept it as false and see what results. If we get nonsensical conclusions we accept the axiom must be true. Notice the circular reasoning. We already consider a conclusion of being black and white at the same time nonsensical.

This is because our mental function of comparing things innately create methodologies of dichotomies.

Human logic is how what we as humans agree is a sensical way tot make sense of the world around us.

Logic doesn't even mean "Truly true". As one philosopher claimed, "For the statement "Snow is white" to be True, well Snow would have to be white."

When logic says true or false it is really saying the inferences drawn from premises to premise to conclusion are in accordance with the axioms and facts accepted previously.

So does God obey Logic? Nothing in reality obeys Logic.

Another question: Is God consistent. Because Logic is really just making sense of a consistent reality. So if God were consistent then there would be some "method to the madness".
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
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3/25/2016 6:02:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 5:12:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Logic is the study of inferences. All of our understanding comes from comparing ideas to each other.

The axioms of Logic are formulated the same way other axioms of systems are generated. We accept it as false and see what results. If we get nonsensical conclusions we accept the axiom must be true. Notice the circular reasoning. We already consider a conclusion of being black and white at the same time nonsensical.

This is because our mental function of comparing things innately create methodologies of dichotomies.

Human logic is how what we as humans agree is a sensical way tot make sense of the world around us.

Logic doesn't even mean "Truly true". As one philosopher claimed, "For the statement "Snow is white" to be True, well Snow would have to be white."

When logic says true or false it is really saying the inferences drawn from premises to premise to conclusion are in accordance with the axioms and facts accepted previously.

So does God obey Logic? Nothing in reality obeys Logic.

Another question: Is God consistent. Because Logic is really just making sense of a consistent reality. So if God were consistent then there would be some "method to the madness".

I agree, but then follow with the question: can God be inconsistent? For instance, can God be simultaneously changing and unchanging (in the same sense)?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
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3/25/2016 6:08:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 4:47:23 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

In my opinion, God is not simply logical, God fundamentally is logic, altho logic is subservient to God as being an aspect of God. This follows in the sense that God is existence itself, love itself, beauty itself, etc among other things. This tradition (which follows from an Aquinas approach to God). God possess infinite knowledge, therefore He cannot break laws of logic, which are indeed His own.

I see; that sounds pan(en)theistic. As Mhykiel said, what we would call logic is a means of reasoning based on the consistency of God, and I'll ask the same question that I asked him: Do you think God could choose to be inconsistent?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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3/25/2016 7:12:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 6:02:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 3/25/2016 5:12:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Logic is the study of inferences. All of our understanding comes from comparing ideas to each other.

The axioms of Logic are formulated the same way other axioms of systems are generated. We accept it as false and see what results. If we get nonsensical conclusions we accept the axiom must be true. Notice the circular reasoning. We already consider a conclusion of being black and white at the same time nonsensical.

This is because our mental function of comparing things innately create methodologies of dichotomies.

Human logic is how what we as humans agree is a sensical way tot make sense of the world around us.

Logic doesn't even mean "Truly true". As one philosopher claimed, "For the statement "Snow is white" to be True, well Snow would have to be white."

When logic says true or false it is really saying the inferences drawn from premises to premise to conclusion are in accordance with the axioms and facts accepted previously.

So does God obey Logic? Nothing in reality obeys Logic.

Another question: Is God consistent. Because Logic is really just making sense of a consistent reality. So if God were consistent then there would be some "method to the madness".

I agree, but then follow with the question: can God be inconsistent? For instance, can God be simultaneously changing and unchanging (in the same sense)?

Well that already presupposes 'changing' and 'unchanging' can not occur in the same sense at the same time. While 'logically' I agree, I don't know if that is impossible for God.
Some argue logic is a semantic calculation. Maybe we lack any words to describe such beings and thier constraints. Maybe our words fail because we lack experience to compare 'outside of time' to. Or compare 'omnipresent' to.

Perhaps God is unchanging in one aspect and changing in another. Like watching shadows on the pavement. They change even when the statue casting them remains the same.

But I would say our logic, which is built on comparing human experiences, too often dichotometric, and strives for consistent framing, is unsuitable to reason too much about God.

I also presuppose that God though is consistent in being. That his existence is logical if ourlogic included an understanding of time and space
Chaosism
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3/25/2016 8:19:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 7:12:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 3/25/2016 6:02:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I agree, but then follow with the question: can God be inconsistent? For instance, can God be simultaneously changing and unchanging (in the same sense)?

Well that already presupposes 'changing' and 'unchanging' can not occur in the same sense at the same time. While 'logically' I agree, I don't know if that is impossible for God.

Well, logically contradictory is one way we determine impossibility. But, if this course of reasoning doesn't apply to God (or it is unknown), it is possible that contradictory propositions regarding God can both be true, despite us being unable to conceive of it.

Some argue logic is a semantic calculation. Maybe we lack any words to describe such beings and thier constraints. Maybe our words fail because we lack experience to compare 'outside of time' to. Or compare 'omnipresent' to.

Perhaps God is unchanging in one aspect and changing in another. Like watching shadows on the pavement. They change even when the statue casting them remains the same.

The first sentence here violates the "in the same sense" qualifier, and that reflects our human tendency to rationalize an explanation to make sense of it.

But I would say our logic, which is built on comparing human experiences, too often dichotometric, and strives for consistent framing, is unsuitable to reason too much about God.

I also presuppose that God though is consistent in being. That his existence is logical if ourlogic included an understanding of time and space

Right - so along with His existence comes the presupposition of consistency, which is vital because consistency of the observed world is the only way we can really learn or know anything about it. By the same token, if God is inconsistent, they we can not know of Him.

Do you think it is warranted to extend that assumption to His very nature; to that which is beyond our capability of observing? What reason do we have to believe that the unobservable nature of God is consistent?
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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3/25/2016 8:50:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
If you are talking about the God of Israel (Creator and Judge) He"s not bound by anything other than His Word given, which is an expression of His will. If He gives His Word, then He will fulfill it. If it fulfills His will, He will give His Word and see to it, it is fulfilled.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/25/2016 10:00:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:35:36 PM, Atheistically wrote:
Lol.

The religious apparently aren't bound by logic when discussing their deity.

Such as? Were we supposed to guess?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.
rextr05
Posts: 215
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3/26/2016 1:39:30 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 6:08:05 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 3/25/2016 4:47:23 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

In my opinion, God is not simply logical, God fundamentally is logic, altho logic is subservient to God as being an aspect of God. This follows in the sense that God is existence itself, love itself, beauty itself, etc among other things. This tradition (which follows from an Aquinas approach to God). God possess infinite knowledge, therefore He cannot break laws of logic, which are indeed His own.

I see; that sounds pan(en)theistic. As Mhykiel said, what we would call logic is a means of reasoning based on the consistency of God, and I'll ask the same question that I asked him: Do you think God could choose to be inconsistent?

Yes, I can see why you would have thought that re what I wrote, altho it's really not if one considers God created everything & has His 'brand' on it all.

That would be inconsistent with what I understand God is. Let's say we apply that question to something we can rationally use OK? Could I choose to be a homosexual if I was not .... or visa versa? That is truth .... something we are to the core. How could a perfect entity be inconsistent? Impossible. God has been consistent throughout history if the bible is studied rather than looking for faults, which many do that are not experts , while considering themselves so. That interpretation can lead to faulty 'truths'.

God's plan for us evolves as we do. The plan is consistent ..... we are not.

Your question relates to the "Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it?" Which is like can God make 2 +2 = 5? It's impossible cuz it defies mathematics laws. ...... So, why would God do something that's logically impossible, & defies perfection??
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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3/26/2016 4:44:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Yes it is assumed so.

If God or whatever is not restricted by the LONC, then it could be said that God exists, God does not exist, are both true or both false.
ken1122
Posts: 499
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3/27/2016 1:11:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 3:47:55 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:34:05 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

Make-believe is rarely bound by logic

Ken

I don't think I'd entirely agree with that. I think the majority of what we imagine (seriously or for entertainment) would be in logical order to reflect our actual world, making the notion seem more appealing [plausibility]. I've not seen too many fanciful notions that actually defy logic entirely - what we make up is typically arranged in a logical manner based on alternate/false premises, usually knowingly false. For instance, there are virtually no instances of fanciful stories in which a monster is both small and large at the same time or entirely two different colors at the same time.

Large and small at the same time? Two different colors at the same time? What you are describing is contradicting, not bound by logic as I said.
Ever hear of the story of Santa Clause? or Easter Bunny? Those are examples of make-believe stories that are not bound by logic

Ken
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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3/28/2016 7:38:59 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

So why did He pick the Jews to demonstrate His perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy? He ended up destroying them, flooding them, scattering them, dumping on them. Etc. Etc.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/28/2016 11:30:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:38:59 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

So why did He pick the Jews to demonstrate His perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy? He ended up destroying them, flooding them, scattering them, dumping on them. Etc. Etc.

Why not? He had to choose someone, and all he had to work with was imperfect humans.

However some, the faithful ones, did prove to be a good example to all, and he used them to form the New Covenant with his son.

Now the evidence is in it is possible to see the remarkable depth of his four primary qualities, despite all Satan has tried to do to prove him wrong.

Actually, Satan's second biggest mistake was saying that no human would ever willingly serve Jehovah especially under threat of death.

His self-imposed restriction meant that there was no way he could possibly win, but it has taken him about 6,000 years to run out of possibilities, and there is only one set of circumstances left for him to be proved wrong in.

We enter that final phase soon, and that will be immeasurably more pleasant for us than any that have preceded it, and Satan will only be released from "prison" near the end of it for one last ditch attempt.

When that is done no-one will ever be able to say "Ah but what if" because all the perfect precedents will have been set, so justice can then be summary.

This rotten twisted system we have to endure at present will never be repeated.

That is the full depth of his wisdom.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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3/28/2016 11:55:05 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:30:42 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:38:59 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

So why did He pick the Jews to demonstrate His perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy? He ended up destroying them, flooding them, scattering them, dumping on them. Etc. Etc.

Why not? He had to choose someone, and all he had to work with was imperfect humans.

No He didn't, and He had whatever He wanted to work with, including His angels.

However some, the faithful ones, did prove to be a good example to all, and he used them to form the New Covenant with his son.

Now the evidence is in it is possible to see the remarkable depth of his four primary qualities, despite all Satan has tried to do to prove him wrong.

On the topic of Angels... it would seem Satan's purpose is to be God's foil. Have you noticed that in the Bible, or at the very least, your explanations? When stuff doesn't go well, its Satan! Because God is all powerful and all wise, and knew Satan would fall... um... wait...

Actually, Satan's second biggest mistake was saying that no human would ever willingly serve Jehovah especially under threat of death.

I don't ever recall reading that in the Bible. Is that one of your "correct" interpretations, or is there chapter and verse we can expect?

His self-imposed restriction meant that there was no way he could possibly win, but it has taken him about 6,000 years to run out of possibilities, and there is only one set of circumstances left for him to be proved wrong in.

see previous.

We enter that final phase soon, and that will be immeasurably more pleasant for us than any that have preceded it, and Satan will only be released from "prison" near the end of it for one last ditch attempt.

With all these prophecies being fulfilled, it would seem like 'soon' would be more calendar based then some folks twiddling their thumbs and trying to find if said prophecy was fulfilled.

When that is done no-one will ever be able to say "Ah but what if" because all the perfect precedents will have been set, so justice can then be summary.

This rotten twisted system we have to endure at present will never be repeated.

That is the full depth of his wisdom.

... even though it was His wisdom that lead up to such a rotten system? Supposedly, He knew it was all coming down the pike.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/28/2016 12:22:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:55:05 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:30:42 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:38:59 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

So why did He pick the Jews to demonstrate His perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy? He ended up destroying them, flooding them, scattering them, dumping on them. Etc. Etc.

Why not? He had to choose someone, and all he had to work with was imperfect humans.

No He didn't, and He had whatever He wanted to work with, including His angels.

However some, the faithful ones, did prove to be a good example to all, and he used them to form the New Covenant with his son.

Now the evidence is in it is possible to see the remarkable depth of his four primary qualities, despite all Satan has tried to do to prove him wrong.

On the topic of Angels... it would seem Satan's purpose is to be God's foil. Have you noticed that in the Bible, or at the very least, your explanations? When stuff doesn't go well, its Satan! Because God is all powerful and all wise, and knew Satan would fall... um... wait...

Actually, Satan's second biggest mistake was saying that no human would ever willingly serve Jehovah especially under threat of death.

I don't ever recall reading that in the Bible. Is that one of your "correct" interpretations, or is there chapter and verse we can expect?

His self-imposed restriction meant that there was no way he could possibly win, but it has taken him about 6,000 years to run out of possibilities, and there is only one set of circumstances left for him to be proved wrong in.

see previous.

We enter that final phase soon, and that will be immeasurably more pleasant for us than any that have preceded it, and Satan will only be released from "prison" near the end of it for one last ditch attempt.

With all these prophecies being fulfilled, it would seem like 'soon' would be more calendar based then some folks twiddling their thumbs and trying to find if said prophecy was fulfilled.

When that is done no-one will ever be able to say "Ah but what if" because all the perfect precedents will have been set, so justice can then be summary.

This rotten twisted system we have to endure at present will never be repeated.

That is the full depth of his wisdom.

... even though it was His wisdom that lead up to such a rotten system? Supposedly, He knew it was all coming down the pike.

No it was not his wisdom that led to it, it was the lack of wisdom of Satan.

True, Jehovah's love for humans and Angels made the rebellion a possibility, but the only other option would have been to make us all robots who could not possibly choose which way to go.

Would you like that?

Personally I would rather be trusted to make my own, informed decisions.

I don't doubt he foresaw the possibility, but then again when we get married it is because we trust our partner to work with us rather than against us. Would you prefer a robot for a wife (or husband as the gender of the reader may dictate), who could not make her (or his) own decisions but was, instead, only capable of doing what they were told?

Believe me, a wife completely incapable of making her own decisions is not an attractive proposition. I know.

I am glad Jehovah trusted his intelligent creation. It will work out for the best for all concerned in the end. Jehovah's wisdom will ensure that, and that is all that matters.

Don't they say "no pain, no gain"? That may not be the most enjoyable way, but sometimes it is the wisest.
bulproof
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3/28/2016 12:37:40 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
He is the absolute epitome of logic,
Well of course, logic is a product of the human mind just as gods are.
MadCornishBiker
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3/28/2016 1:17:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 12:37:40 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
He is the absolute epitome of logic,
Well of course, logic is a product of the human mind just as gods are.

Lol, on the contrary, the human mind only has limited logic capabilities.

A truly logical mind would not ignore the evidence of God which is all around us.
Human logic, like human wisdom is a pale imitation of the logic, wisdom etc. of God.
bulproof
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3/28/2016 1:26:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 1:17:51 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/28/2016 12:37:40 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
He is the absolute epitome of logic,
Well of course, logic is a product of the human mind just as gods are.

Lol, on the contrary, the human mind only has limited logic capabilities.
Name the logic beyond the human mind, especially since logic is purely the construct of the human mind.
A truly logical mind would not ignore the evidence of God which is all around us.
What does this have to do with the contention you are allegedly responding to?
Human logic, like human wisdom is a pale imitation of the logic, wisdom etc. of God.
Human logic is the only logic that exists.
If you have some other non human logic bring it to the table and give everyone a laugh.
FaustianJustice
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3/28/2016 1:43:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

So why did He pick the Jews to demonstrate His perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy? He ended up destroying them, flooding them, scattering them, dumping on them. Etc. Etc.

Why not? He had to choose someone, and all he had to work with was imperfect humans.

No He didn't, and He had whatever He wanted to work with, including His angels.

However some, the faithful ones, did prove to be a good example to all, and he used them to form the New Covenant with his son.

Now the evidence is in it is possible to see the remarkable depth of his four primary qualities, despite all Satan has tried to do to prove him wrong.

On the topic of Angels... it would seem Satan's purpose is to be God's foil. Have you noticed that in the Bible, or at the very least, your explanations? When stuff doesn't go well, its Satan! Because God is all powerful and all wise, and knew Satan would fall... um... wait...

Actually, Satan's second biggest mistake was saying that no human would ever willingly serve Jehovah especially under threat of death.

I don't ever recall reading that in the Bible. Is that one of your "correct" interpretations, or is there chapter and verse we can expect?

His self-imposed restriction meant that there was no way he could possibly win, but it has taken him about 6,000 years to run out of possibilities, and there is only one set of circumstances left for him to be proved wrong in.

see previous.

We enter that final phase soon, and that will be immeasurably more pleasant for us than any that have preceded it, and Satan will only be released from "prison" near the end of it for one last ditch attempt.

With all these prophecies being fulfilled, it would seem like 'soon' would be more calendar based then some folks twiddling their thumbs and trying to find if said prophecy was fulfilled.

When that is done no-one will ever be able to say "Ah but what if" because all the perfect precedents will have been set, so justice can then be summary.

This rotten twisted system we have to endure at present will never be repeated.

That is the full depth of his wisdom.

... even though it was His wisdom that lead up to such a rotten system? Supposedly, He knew it was all coming down the pike.

No it was not his wisdom that led to it, it was the lack of wisdom of Satan.

Whom was behaving as God knew he would turn out.

True, Jehovah's love for humans and Angels made the rebellion a possibility, but the only other option would have been to make us all robots who could not possibly choose which way to go.

False dichotomy.

Would you like that?

Don't know, never been a robot.

Personally I would rather be trusted to make my own, informed decisions.


I don't doubt he foresaw the possibility, but then again when we get married it is because we trust our partner to work with us rather than against us.

I nor my partner are omniscient. God is. He gives purpose to His creations, and He is all powerful. Such a circumstance should have been impossible for Him to NOT for see.

Would you prefer a robot for a wife (or husband as the gender of the reader may dictate), who could not make her (or his) own decisions but was, instead, only capable of doing what they were told?

Not as a wife. As a house 'mate', or something to that effect, absolutely.

Believe me, a wife completely incapable of making her own decisions is not an attractive proposition. I know.

I am glad Jehovah trusted his intelligent creation. It will work out for the best for all concerned in the end. Jehovah's wisdom will ensure that, and that is all that matters.

It seems to me, it was Jehovah's wisdom in making angels that got us into this problem, and He STILL couldn't get it right in making less powerful creatures.

Don't they say "no pain, no gain"? That may not be the most enjoyable way, but sometimes it is the wisest.

They say a lot of things, like "That's the way the ball bounces", and they usually ignore the fact that they are the ones that dropped it in the first place.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Chaosism
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3/28/2016 1:54:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/26/2016 1:39:30 AM, rextr05 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 6:08:05 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 3/25/2016 4:47:23 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

In my opinion, God is not simply logical, God fundamentally is logic, altho logic is subservient to God as being an aspect of God. This follows in the sense that God is existence itself, love itself, beauty itself, etc among other things. This tradition (which follows from an Aquinas approach to God). God possess infinite knowledge, therefore He cannot break laws of logic, which are indeed His own.

I see; that sounds pan(en)theistic. As Mhykiel said, what we would call logic is a means of reasoning based on the consistency of God, and I'll ask the same question that I asked him: Do you think God could choose to be inconsistent?

Yes, I can see why you would have thought that re what I wrote, altho it's really not if one considers God created everything & has His 'brand' on it all.

That would be inconsistent with what I understand God is. Let's say we apply that question to something we can rationally use OK? Could I choose to be a homosexual if I was not .... or visa versa? That is truth .... something we are to the core. How could a perfect entity be inconsistent? Impossible. God has been consistent throughout history if the bible is studied rather than looking for faults, which many do that are not experts , while considering themselves so. That interpretation can lead to faulty 'truths'.

God's plan for us evolves as we do. The plan is consistent ..... we are not.

Your question relates to the "Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it?" Which is like can God make 2 +2 = 5? It's impossible cuz it defies mathematics laws. ...... So, why would God do something that's logically impossible, & defies perfection??

Thank you for your response, Rex. I have two questions for you, if you are willing to address them:

1.) What is "perfect"? Typically, perfect is an adjective, so it is objective applicable in regard to objective subject, such as a perfect circle, or a perfect fit (like with a jigsaw puzzle). When it comes to other matters, such as the perfect tasting food, it is completely incoherent because it is a subjective matter. When we envision God, anyone could have a very different idea of what traits constitutes "perfect".

2.) Is God perfect because He wants to be (i.e. He could possibly choose to be imperfect), or because God defines what perfect is (i.e. anything He does is perfect)?
Chaosism
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3/28/2016 2:11:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 10:41:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/25/2016 3:30:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In other words, does our logical reasoning apply to God? Specifically, I hold in mind the Principle of Non-Contradiction: "...contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same". (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

This question is intended for theists, but is not meant to be entirely exclusive, either.

He is the absolute epitome of logic, logic way beyond our ability to understand, but logic none the less.

Everything he does he does for an absolutely logical reason, even if we can't understand what that reason is.

To say that Jehovah is bound by anything other than bonds he creates for himself would be wrong, but he does limit himself. For instance everything he does is bound by the perfect balance of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Mercy.

True sometimes we have to dig deep into things to recognise that, but it is there none the less. All our inability to comprehend that results from is our lack of true Wisdom and intelligence when compared to him, since in all aspects his is exponentially greater than ours.

But what of logically contradictory matters, then? I can't help but return to the contradictory matter of omniscience and free will, as we began to discuss in a previous thread:

If the future of an individual can be known, then that future is determined. As before, it isn't that it's actually known; just that it's possible to know. You previously said that Jehovah can choose to know the future events of an individual, but doesn't wish to violate our privacy. This creates a logical contradiction:

1) If person A has free will, then he can choose either X or Y.
2) We'll assume that being G knows that person A will choose X.
3) If it is possible for A to choose Y, then it is not possible for G to know that A will choose X.
4) If it is not possible for A to choose Y, then A must necessarily choose X, so A doesn't actually have a choice.
5) Therefore, logically, the future choice of Person A cannot be both knowable and free.

The above is derived from logical reasoning, which is a method of structured reasoning that is derived from the consistency of the observable world. If God is logically consistent, then the above applies. If He is not, then the above is irrelevant, because, by nature, it presupposes logical consistency.
Chaosism
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3/28/2016 2:13:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/25/2016 8:50:44 PM, DPMartin wrote:
If you are talking about the God of Israel (Creator and Judge) He"s not bound by anything other than His Word given, which is an expression of His will. If He gives His Word, then He will fulfill it. If it fulfills His will, He will give His Word and see to it, it is fulfilled.

How is it known that God is bound by His Word given?