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Islam was only meant for Arabs

lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs. Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.
Pandit
Posts: 354
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3/29/2016 6:37:23 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
As per our Philosophy , Whenever Dharma is on decline and Adharma is on Rise . He Manifests as a protector of Dharma . It happened with Krishna and Buddha in India . It happened with all prophets in Middle East .

If I am correct Last Prophet united Saudi Arab . After him many Power hungry people went on a rampage in other places and used Quran as an excuse for their wrong doings . Same happened in India , Vedic literature were used as excuse to oppress certain section of Society and then came Buddha which took people away from that path .
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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3/29/2016 8:04:22 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Exactly, with the whole virgin mother of god thing. And half the crap they say was already said by others such as Confucius.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

I've heard that once. Some idiot Muslim I debated long time ago said that Christians were Muslim because they submit to god like Muslims (semantical argument obviously).
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

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Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/29/2016 9:31:34 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 8:04:22 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Exactly, with the whole virgin mother of god thing. And half the crap they say was already said by others such as Confucius.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

I've heard that once. Some idiot Muslim I debated long time ago said that Christians were Muslim because they submit to god like Muslims (semantical argument obviously).

That's a new one on me. But I suppose one can unearth a proponent for just about any conceivable fringe belief. Still, believing that Christians are really Muslims is a far cry from believing everyone is a Muslim. And it's nowhere close to a mainstream Muslim belief.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/29/2016 10:07:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Islam is meant for nobody.

Christianity is hardly original either.

I believe that it was Chesterton or Lewis or Tolkien who answered this. He argued that because humans are born in the image of God, we interiorly know our fallen state and have a natural attraction to and desire for the redemption. Ancient myths reached for an understanding of this redemption and touched on elements of it. He said that he would in fact be surprised if Jesus wasn't prefigured prior to his arrival.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/30/2016 12:00:02 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

Is that right? Which nonchristian religion has the son of god dying for man's sins, rising from the dead, and ascending into Heaven?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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3/30/2016 12:21:52 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 12:00:02 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

Is that right? Which nonchristian religion has the son of god dying for man's sins, rising from the dead, and ascending into Heaven?

The prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did something even more spectacular. He visited heaven and returned to earth. Jesus could only enter Heaven as a spirit. Because according to Paul nothing perishable can enter heaven. God must have made a concession for the prophet.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/30/2016 12:25:16 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Muhammad's (pbuh) last sermon:
"..an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

http://www.iqrasense.com...
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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3/30/2016 1:14:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Jesus walked the planet 700 years befor Mohamed. He was by far the most influential being to do so. I say again.....Mohamed only rehashed what Jsus said. He just said it to Arabs, as Islam was ONLY meant for Arabs.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/30/2016 4:28:31 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

Come on now uther. Keep it real. What happens when I learn me lesson in Muslim Hell? Where do I go? But you don't think I'm a Muslim. If everyone's going then we are all Muslims.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/30/2016 2:02:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 4:28:31 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

Come on now uther. Keep it real. What happens when I learn me lesson in Muslim Hell? Where do I go? But you don't think I'm a Muslim. If everyone's going then we are all Muslims.

?
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...
bulpoof
Posts: 143
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3/31/2016 5:06:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs. Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word. : :

Islam is just another religion that God used to confuse the hell out of his people. Christianity has confused the most people on earth.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/31/2016 5:14:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)

Oh I understood that Fitrah was the "natural desire" for God and his will. Yet you just said that they are labeled as Muslims. How is this different from being Muslim?

If I were to make a similar analogy from Christianity. I would also agree that we are born with a natural desire for God. However, we would argue that until the child reaches the age of reason they cannot actually sin. Yet Christians (most at least) would say that one doesn't become a Christian until they are baptized (infant baptism being acceptable).
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/31/2016 5:46:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:14:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)

Oh I understood that Fitrah was the "natural desire" for God and his will. Yet you just said that they are labeled as Muslims. How is this different from being Muslim?

No difference really.

If I were to make a similar analogy from Christianity. I would also agree that we are born with a natural desire for God. However, we would argue that until the child reaches the age of reason they cannot actually sin. Yet Christians (most at least) would say that one doesn't become a Christian until they are baptized (infant baptism being acceptable).
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/31/2016 5:48:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:46:45 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:14:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)

Oh I understood that Fitrah was the "natural desire" for God and his will. Yet you just said that they are labeled as Muslims. How is this different from being Muslim?

No difference really.

So then everyone is born Muslim...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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3/31/2016 6:21:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:48:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:46:45 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:14:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)

Oh I understood that Fitrah was the "natural desire" for God and his will. Yet you just said that they are labeled as Muslims. How is this different from being Muslim?

No difference really.

So then everyone is born Muslim...

Yes
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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3/31/2016 6:35:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:21:47 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:48:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:46:45 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:14:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:07:43 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:03:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:02:27 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:57:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/30/2016 12:26:14 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:57:55 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:28:35 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs.

Christianity is hardly original either.

Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

This is nonsense. No Muslim I've ever heard about believes that everyone is a Muslim.

They claim Jesus was a Muslim...

Jesus isn't everyone...

I have seen this multiple times:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

It is authentic or not?

The hadith is authentic, but you've misunderstood the meaning of Fitrah.

This is what Muslim apologetics websites say...

The Fitrah is more than just being born Muslim, it's an innate leaning towards morality and the existence of God, prepubescent children are not considered responsible for their sins and areally immediately labeled as Muslim (since they cannot be held responsible for any sins, including disbelief)

Oh I understood that Fitrah was the "natural desire" for God and his will. Yet you just said that they are labeled as Muslims. How is this different from being Muslim?

No difference really.

So then everyone is born Muslim...

Yes

Thanks. Humour me for a second so that I understand Islam better. When do they stop being Muslim?
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,047
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3/31/2016 7:08:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs. Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

Only in the same way Christianity was meant for jews
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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4/2/2016 4:55:10 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:08:48 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give. I believe Mohamed was not an original and his message (when he wasn't killing) was ONLY for Arabs. Muslims delude themselves into thinking everyone is a Muslim and Mohamed is the last great prophet. Delusional is the operative word.

Only in the same way Christianity was meant for jews

Christianity as it is practiced was never meant for anyone. The faith misses the point of why Jesus incarnated. It still doesn't change the fact that Islam was only meant for Arabs.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/2/2016 6:14:39 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:43:13 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
What new enlightened ideas did Mohamed (when he wasn't warring against others)
give that Jesus didn't already give.

In fairness, there's not much practical stuff attributed to Jesus that can't be found previously in early Greek humanism, or Hellenistic Judaism, or Zoroastrianism, or even Greek paganism.

But what Islam did for Arabs was also what Christianity did for Romans, and modeled off what Judaism did for Jews: it provided theological support for a manifest nationalist destiny.

When Judaism was first conceived, Israelites were displaced from tribal lands, and the Judaism of the time turned military and economic disaster into a story of tribal sin and redemption that both held them together culturally rather than allowing them to assimilate, and eventually had them negotiating to get their lands back from the Persians.

When the Hellenistic Judaic reformmovement that was the precursor of Christianity failed in Judaea, some of it was transpanted to Rome, and there the now-named Christianity became not a faith of Jewish emigres, but a faith of ignorant Roman workers -- -- a simple faith, defying the long-standing privilege of pagan priests and the Patricians they cozied up to, but also rent by numerous heresies that saw early Christian church leaders warring among themselves both intellectually and politically to snatch power form one another.

Eventually, by the early fourth century CE, Roman nobles would pretend to be Christian to gain popular support for their own power-struggles, and this eventually led to imperial interest in reforming and consolidating Christian canon -- perhaps to better use the people it mobilised. So in each case, a monotheistic religion built nationalistic identity at times when that identity was under stress.

Among the Arabs, it seems that the same trick was copied. Warring tribes were unified under a Muslim variation of a familiar faith (Judaism) that promised them nationalistic destiny. That faith offered a simple, compelling narrative to mobilise troops and build empire. And when Arab dynasties collapsed, Persians, Kurds and Turks were able to repeat the trick -- claiming spiritual descent from the Arab founders of Islam in much the way that Christians have claimed spiritual descent from the Israelite founders of Judaism, even though the ethnic and cultural ties aren't really there.

Nowadays, Christians and Jews criticise Islam -- quite rightly -- for being a faith too often promoted by fire and steel, though trade also contributed, as it does in the religions of all empires: adopting the faith and language of a wealthy empire offers trade benefits for smaller nations.

However, I find the criticism if Muslim militancy imbalanced and unfair, since Judaic nationalism and Christian nationalism have been (and occasionally remain) equally militant and expansionist, and both religious traditions have histories full of blood and ambition whenever that was advantageous.

In the long term, I don't think the success of Abrahamic monotheism has as much to do with morality as it does with mobilising religious nationalism. And the millennia of sometimes bloody tensions between these faiths arise in part from the fact that they all still feel entitled to their own manifest destiny, and in their heart of hearts, have never given up those dreams, no matter how cruel, unjust and unworthy they are.