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Innocent Victims

s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/29/2016 3:12:02 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
I know this may sound very cliche, but one of the hardest things for me to say is, "I'm sorry." In fact, I went for years trying to avoid saying it, altogether.

Just recently, I have given this much thought and have found the answer for my reluctance in religion. One of the most common and essential motifs found in religion is the innocent victim. From primitive mythologies to modern-day religions, kings, virgins, animals, children, and deities were victimized to appease angry gods. These sacrifices were vicarious deaths. However, there was a very obvious contradiction in this. How could innocent victims take the place of those who were guilty? First of all, we assume the religious collectives identified with the innocent victims even though its members believed they, themselves, were guilty. However, how could they identify with innocent victims if they, themselves, were not innocent? Refusing to accept their own guilt was made obvious by the use of scapegoats. They, through repression, transfered their sins onto innocent victims. Sacrifices were meant to appease angry gods. People believed their gods were angry because of the trying times they had to face. They believed these hardships were not deserved. However, deserved or not, they had to bring them to an end.

This speaks of a very deep psychological truth, and the reason I use the term deep is because most of us do not even know we are doing it. Most of the time, we will do anything to justify our actions; and, doing so, we look for scapegoats. It is much easier to blame our situations for our behavior than it is to blame ourselves. The symbols in the innocent victim motif signify the workings of our psyches. The sins of the people are our own sins. The angry god is a guilty conscience. Innocent victims are the scapegoats which take the brunt of our blame.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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3/29/2016 4:10:12 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 3:12:02 AM, s-anthony wrote:
I know this may sound very cliche, but one of the hardest things for me to say is, "I'm sorry." In fact, I went for years trying to avoid saying it, altogether.

Just recently, I have given this much thought and have found the answer for my reluctance in religion. One of the most common and essential motifs found in religion is the innocent victim. From primitive mythologies to modern-day religions, kings, virgins, animals, children, and deities were victimized to appease angry gods. These sacrifices were vicarious deaths. However, there was a very obvious contradiction in this. How could innocent victims take the place of those who were guilty? First of all, we assume the religious collectives identified with the innocent victims even though its members believed they, themselves, were guilty. However, how could they identify with innocent victims if they, themselves, were not innocent? Refusing to accept their own guilt was made obvious by the use of scapegoats. They, through repression, transfered their sins onto innocent victims. Sacrifices were meant to appease angry gods. People believed their gods were angry because of the trying times they had to face. They believed these hardships were not deserved. However, deserved or not, they had to bring them to an end.

This speaks of a very deep psychological truth, and the reason I use the term deep is because most of us do not even know we are doing it. Most of the time, we will do anything to justify our actions; and, doing so, we look for scapegoats. It is much easier to blame our situations for our behavior than it is to blame ourselves. The symbols in the innocent victim motif signify the workings of our psyches. The sins of the people are our own sins. The angry god is a guilty conscience. Innocent victims are the scapegoats which take the brunt of our blame.

Wowza. Totally sick. Word.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/29/2016 9:44:06 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 4:10:12 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/29/2016 3:12:02 AM, s-anthony wrote:
I know this may sound very cliche, but one of the hardest things for me to say is, "I'm sorry." In fact, I went for years trying to avoid saying it, altogether.

Just recently, I have given this much thought and have found the answer for my reluctance in religion. One of the most common and essential motifs found in religion is the innocent victim. From primitive mythologies to modern-day religions, kings, virgins, animals, children, and deities were victimized to appease angry gods. These sacrifices were vicarious deaths. However, there was a very obvious contradiction in this. How could innocent victims take the place of those who were guilty? First of all, we assume the religious collectives identified with the innocent victims even though its members believed they, themselves, were guilty. However, how could they identify with innocent victims if they, themselves, were not innocent? Refusing to accept their own guilt was made obvious by the use of scapegoats. They, through repression, transfered their sins onto innocent victims. Sacrifices were meant to appease angry gods. People believed their gods were angry because of the trying times they had to face. They believed these hardships were not deserved. However, deserved or not, they had to bring them to an end.

This speaks of a very deep psychological truth, and the reason I use the term deep is because most of us do not even know we are doing it. Most of the time, we will do anything to justify our actions; and, doing so, we look for scapegoats. It is much easier to blame our situations for our behavior than it is to blame ourselves. The symbols in the innocent victim motif signify the workings of our psyches. The sins of the people are our own sins. The angry god is a guilty conscience. Innocent victims are the scapegoats which take the brunt of our blame.

Wowza. Totally sick. Word.

Even though it may be sick, I thinks it's universal. I think it's something in most cases we're not even aware we're doing. The hard part is realizing our guilt and owning our shortcomings.

I don't think hating ourselves (within reason), as popular psychology teaches, creates a negative atmosphere which in turn causes us to self-destruct; to the contrary, I think a moderate amount of self-criticism is healthy; it allows us to realize our weaknesses and gives us the desire to improve who we are.
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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3/29/2016 2:33:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
If you have a problem with the whole transferring of sin/wrongness/guilt etc unto an innocent party.......................yeah christianity is not for you.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/29/2016 2:55:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:44:06 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/29/2016 4:10:12 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/29/2016 3:12:02 AM, s-anthony wrote:
I know this may sound very cliche, but one of the hardest things for me to say is, "I'm sorry." In fact, I went for years trying to avoid saying it, altogether.

Just recently, I have given this much thought and have found the answer for my reluctance in religion. One of the most common and essential motifs found in religion is the innocent victim. From primitive mythologies to modern-day religions, kings, virgins, animals, children, and deities were victimized to appease angry gods. These sacrifices were vicarious deaths. However, there was a very obvious contradiction in this. How could innocent victims take the place of those who were guilty? First of all, we assume the religious collectives identified with the innocent victims even though its members believed they, themselves, were guilty. However, how could they identify with innocent victims if they, themselves, were not innocent? Refusing to accept their own guilt was made obvious by the use of scapegoats. They, through repression, transfered their sins onto innocent victims. Sacrifices were meant to appease angry gods. People believed their gods were angry because of the trying times they had to face. They believed these hardships were not deserved. However, deserved or not, they had to bring them to an end.

This speaks of a very deep psychological truth, and the reason I use the term deep is because most of us do not even know we are doing it. Most of the time, we will do anything to justify our actions; and, doing so, we look for scapegoats. It is much easier to blame our situations for our behavior than it is to blame ourselves. The symbols in the innocent victim motif signify the workings of our psyches. The sins of the people are our own sins. The angry god is a guilty conscience. Innocent victims are the scapegoats which take the brunt of our blame.

Wowza. Totally sick. Word.

Even though it may be sick, I thinks it's universal. I think it's something in most cases we're not even aware we're doing. The hard part is realizing our guilt and owning our shortcomings.

I don't think hating ourselves (within reason), as popular psychology teaches, creates a negative atmosphere which in turn causes us to self-destruct; to the contrary, I think a moderate amount of self-criticism is healthy; it allows us to realize our weaknesses and gives us the desire to improve who we are.

I have absolutely no problem saying I'm sorry if its owed. I look at it like owing money. It is undignified and dishonorable to not pay something that is owed. I can retain my dignity and honor BECAUSE I can apologize; not in spite of and I think the person I am apologizing to would agree.

This is not universal.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/29/2016 3:01:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
If you have a problem with the whole transferring of sin/wrongness/guilt etc unto an innocent party.......................yeah christianity is not for you.

The premise of the OP is not the problem of transference, per se, but the acknowledgement it's a central motif found in many mythologies and religions.

I believe there's a very good reason for that. Psychologically speaking, it's very common. All too often, we see ourselves as innocent victims. Instead of facing our own demons, to discover the sources of our problems, we quickly externalize our shortcomings and blame other people and the situations in which we find ourselves. Other people and the situations in which we find ourselves may be entirely innocent. However, not until we face ourselves will we ever know that.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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3/29/2016 3:07:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:55:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:44:06 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/29/2016 4:10:12 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/29/2016 3:12:02 AM, s-anthony wrote:
I know this may sound very cliche, but one of the hardest things for me to say is, "I'm sorry." In fact, I went for years trying to avoid saying it, altogether.

Just recently, I have given this much thought and have found the answer for my reluctance in religion. One of the most common and essential motifs found in religion is the innocent victim. From primitive mythologies to modern-day religions, kings, virgins, animals, children, and deities were victimized to appease angry gods. These sacrifices were vicarious deaths. However, there was a very obvious contradiction in this. How could innocent victims take the place of those who were guilty? First of all, we assume the religious collectives identified with the innocent victims even though its members believed they, themselves, were guilty. However, how could they identify with innocent victims if they, themselves, were not innocent? Refusing to accept their own guilt was made obvious by the use of scapegoats. They, through repression, transfered their sins onto innocent victims. Sacrifices were meant to appease angry gods. People believed their gods were angry because of the trying times they had to face. They believed these hardships were not deserved. However, deserved or not, they had to bring them to an end.

This speaks of a very deep psychological truth, and the reason I use the term deep is because most of us do not even know we are doing it. Most of the time, we will do anything to justify our actions; and, doing so, we look for scapegoats. It is much easier to blame our situations for our behavior than it is to blame ourselves. The symbols in the innocent victim motif signify the workings of our psyches. The sins of the people are our own sins. The angry god is a guilty conscience. Innocent victims are the scapegoats which take the brunt of our blame.

Wowza. Totally sick. Word.

Even though it may be sick, I thinks it's universal. I think it's something in most cases we're not even aware we're doing. The hard part is realizing our guilt and owning our shortcomings.

I don't think hating ourselves (within reason), as popular psychology teaches, creates a negative atmosphere which in turn causes us to self-destruct; to the contrary, I think a moderate amount of self-criticism is healthy; it allows us to realize our weaknesses and gives us the desire to improve who we are.

I have absolutely no problem saying I'm sorry if its owed. I look at it like owing money. It is undignified and dishonorable to not pay something that is owed. I can retain my dignity and honor BECAUSE I can apologize; not in spite of and I think the person I am apologizing to would agree.

This is not universal.

I completely agree.

In using the term universal, I don't mean to say it happens with everyone all the time but rather we are all guilty of it from time to time; and, in many cases, we are not even aware of our guilt.