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Apostle Paul Against You All!

newnature
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3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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3/29/2016 5:44:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

Human sacrifice definitely has its upside! Maybe those Mayans were on to something also :)
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 8:07:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 5:44:03 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

Human sacrifice definitely has its upside! Maybe those Mayans were on to something also :)

A lot of crazy things were being taught at the Tower of Babel. The great usurper sure knew what he was teaching in the Tower.
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 9:02:20 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

He who endures to the end will be saved - Matt. 24:13

See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God"s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off - Rom. 11:22

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day - 2 Tim. 4:7-8

I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified - 1 Cor. 9:27
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 9:04:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

Because that is what the teachings of Christianity are. Heaven is for those who love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 9:12:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:04:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

Because that is what the teachings of Christianity are. Heaven is for those who love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3

But... it sounds like the OP is saying that if you think people go to hell unless they are redeemed, then you don't believe Christ died for our sins.

Or something. Still confused.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 9:34:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:12:01 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:04:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

Because that is what the teachings of Christianity are. Heaven is for those who love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3

But... it sounds like the OP is saying that if you think people go to hell unless they are redeemed, then you don't believe Christ died for our sins.

Or something. Still confused.

From what I can see, the OP is teaching that if you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins then God justice is completely satisfied by that. Hence he is arguing that there is nothing to do but believe. If you believe that you have to do something else besides believe in order to satisfy God's Justice then you really don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and are not saved.

I don't think that any Christian actually denies that we are only saved by the grace of God through the blood of Christ. The discussion would centre around the meaning of believe or faith. The OP is arguing that merely by making an intellectual acknowledgement would be sufficient. The other side would say that it must be faith put into action.
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 9:41:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:34:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:

From what I can see, the OP is teaching that if you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins then God justice is completely satisfied by that. Hence he is arguing that there is nothing to do but believe. If you believe that you have to do something else besides believe in order to satisfy God's Justice then you really don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and are not saved.

I don't think that any Christian actually denies that we are only saved by the grace of God through the blood of Christ. The discussion would centre around the meaning of believe or faith. The OP is arguing that merely by making an intellectual acknowledgement would be sufficient. The other side would say that it must be faith put into action.

Oh, I see. That does clear things up a bit for me.

Is this a common talking point between Christians, then? Whether belief is enough? What kind of action does "the other side" say is necessary?
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/29/2016 9:47:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

We need redemption to LIVE in the here and now to fulfill the Law of Love! Christ's ministry directs us how to live unto eternal life. He laid down his life for his friends, and had the power to lay it down and take it up again.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It just so happens that he also fulfilled the sacrifice of the demiurge - but that sacrifice is not his main purpose, redemption and forgiveness is his purpose so that we can have LIFE more abundantly.

John 10:10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:41:43 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:34:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:

From what I can see, the OP is teaching that if you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins then God justice is completely satisfied by that. Hence he is arguing that there is nothing to do but believe. If you believe that you have to do something else besides believe in order to satisfy God's Justice then you really don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and are not saved.

I don't think that any Christian actually denies that we are only saved by the grace of God through the blood of Christ. The discussion would centre around the meaning of believe or faith. The OP is arguing that merely by making an intellectual acknowledgement would be sufficient. The other side would say that it must be faith put into action.

Oh, I see. That does clear things up a bit for me.

Is this a common talking point between Christians, then? Whether belief is enough? What kind of action does "the other side" say is necessary?

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 10:11:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

My service to God, is no greater than my service to you. Jesus Christ"s faith in the Father"s will, and Christ was faithful to do the Father"s will. So it was ultimately Christ"s faith that allowed God"s justice to remain intact, as God declares an unrighteous believer to be righteous. Apart from Christ"s faith and his faithfulness to carry out the Father"s will based on that faith, there would not be anyone perfectly righteous, to whom God could join a believing sinner. R32;

Just as Christ never doubted the will of the Father, the Father never doubted the faith and faithfulness of his son. It was God"s plan to use the faith and its resultant faithfulness of the son of God, in the ultimate glorification of human-kind, the union of believers to Christ, is that which allows God to remain just when he credits those with righteousness with that which belongs to the one who is absolutely, perfectly righteous. R32;

When Paul talks about a new creature, old things being past away, all things become new, he is not talking about sin in an individuals life, he is talking about all that we were prior to salvation in Adam, Adam in rebellion. Once saved, we are no longer in Adam, Adam in rebellion, we are at the initial point of our belief, in the last Adam, Jesus Christ. R32;

In God"s eyes we are no longer who we once were, we are now the new creation, being forever joined to our savior. Paul is not talking about a believer gaining sinful perfection at the point of their belief or at any other time for that manner. A person who believes that sin in others proves a lack of salvation, is a person who is over looking the sin in themselves, that individual is thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. R32;

Paul did not say eliminate our sin nature all together. Instead, Paul said mortify it, render it functionally inoperative, do not allow it to reach it"s final culmination, which is separation and division. While it will always be present with us, we do not have to allow it to rule and reign in our life or to fracture others who happen across our path.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 10:36:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

Not so much proven, but that one only truly comes to love God by fully giving of oneself. Love is a self sacrificial relationship. You don't have to prove anything to God, 'cause God already knows. It is by doing that you become more like God and learn to hate sin.

Many protestant denominations will preach salvation by faith alone, or one saved always saved. It varies across a spectrum.
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 10:48:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:36:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

Not so much proven, but that one only truly comes to love God by fully giving of oneself. Love is a self sacrificial relationship. You don't have to prove anything to God, 'cause God already knows. It is by doing that you become more like God and learn to hate sin.

Many protestant denominations will preach salvation by faith alone, or one saved always saved. It varies across a spectrum.

Which view do you support?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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3/29/2016 10:50:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:48:15 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:36:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

Not so much proven, but that one only truly comes to love God by fully giving of oneself. Love is a self sacrificial relationship. You don't have to prove anything to God, 'cause God already knows. It is by doing that you become more like God and learn to hate sin.

Many protestant denominations will preach salvation by faith alone, or one saved always saved. It varies across a spectrum.

Which view do you support?

I'm Catholic.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 11:23:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:04:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

Because that is what the teachings of Christianity are. Heaven is for those who love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3

Traditionally, evangelical and other religious persuasions teach, that at the resurrection, their material bodies are reunited with their souls, thus intensifying the pleasure of Heaven or the pain of Hell. Why are evangelicals so adamant in refusing to reconsider the Biblical teachings on the restoration of the whole person? R32;

To abandon souls being reunited with their bodies, also entails abandoning a whole cluster of doctrines resulting from it. The total impact of dividing humans into body and soul has promoted all sorts of false dichotomies in Scripture.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 11:26:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:12:01 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:04:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:00:25 PM, Casten wrote:
But I don't know any Christian who doesn't believe Christ died for humanity's sins.

They still seem to think we're all sinners bound for hell unless we walk the path of God and are "saved."

I'm... confused.

Because that is what the teachings of Christianity are. Heaven is for those who love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3

But... it sounds like the OP is saying that if you think people go to hell unless they are redeemed, then you don't believe Christ died for our sins.

Or something. Still confused.

The notion of the eternal torment of the wicked can only be defended by accepting the Greek view of the immortality and indestructibility of the soul, a concept which is foreign to Scripture.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 11:32:34 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:41:43 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:34:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:

From what I can see, the OP is teaching that if you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins then God justice is completely satisfied by that. Hence he is arguing that there is nothing to do but believe. If you believe that you have to do something else besides believe in order to satisfy God's Justice then you really don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and are not saved.

I don't think that any Christian actually denies that we are only saved by the grace of God through the blood of Christ. The discussion would centre around the meaning of believe or faith. The OP is arguing that merely by making an intellectual acknowledgement would be sufficient. The other side would say that it must be faith put into action.

Oh, I see. That does clear things up a bit for me.

Is this a common talking point between Christians, then? Whether belief is enough? What kind of action does "the other side" say is necessary?

The fact that every believer is set apart by God as being holy at that point of that person"s belief, God is the one who is performing the setting apart, God accomplishes this sanctification by joining all who believe to his son. R32;

Paul even tells the carnal saints at Corinth that the reason these detestable deeds (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) had not and could not result in a lost of their salvation or their fellowship with God for that matter, is because as carnal as these Corinthians happen to be, they had a holy standing with God through their union with his son. R32;

Paul is not bringing this list to their attention in order to frighten them, he wants to remind them that God no longer sees them in that light, he"s bringing to their attention the fact that God is now, no longer viewing them apart from righteousness that belongs to his son. R32;

The gift decree of righteousness belonging to the son had been totally and permanently credited to the account of these carnal believers, to their account in heaven at the point of their belief. R32;

The law pointed to sin, and then required death for the sinner, can the law now stake a further claim against the one who has already satisfied that claim, will the law ever again have a future claim where Jesus Christ is concerned, he satisfied that claim once and for all. R32;

We are joined to Jesus Christ, fully identified with his satisfying the law"s claim, it only stands to reason that once a person is joined to the one who has satisfied the law"s requirement for sins, and is now standing only in Christ"s perfect righteousness, that believer"s sinfulness can never be used as proof of that believer"s lack of righteousness. R32;

Paul moves us away from the realm of condition, and he takes us straight into the realm of identity, the law can make no demand on the world of the lawlessness, because Christ met the law"s demands for the world of sinners for which he died. Today, the law can only serve the purpose of proving people"s need for a righteousness that no person is capable of gaining through performance.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 11:36:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:47:05 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

We need redemption to LIVE in the here and now to fulfill the Law of Love! Christ's ministry directs us how to live unto eternal life. He laid down his life for his friends, and had the power to lay it down and take it up again.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It just so happens that he also fulfilled the sacrifice of the demiurge - but that sacrifice is not his main purpose, redemption and forgiveness is his purpose so that we can have LIFE more abundantly.

John 10:10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

No one needs to be told how to live the Christian life, it"s not about trying to change something, it"s trying to understand something, and then work with that understanding. Paul calls it a labor of love, the members of the Body of Christ are to be the supporting cast of the Body of Christ.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/29/2016 11:39:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:41:43 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:34:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:

From what I can see, the OP is teaching that if you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins then God justice is completely satisfied by that. Hence he is arguing that there is nothing to do but believe. If you believe that you have to do something else besides believe in order to satisfy God's Justice then you really don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and are not saved.

I don't think that any Christian actually denies that we are only saved by the grace of God through the blood of Christ. The discussion would centre around the meaning of believe or faith. The OP is arguing that merely by making an intellectual acknowledgement would be sufficient. The other side would say that it must be faith put into action.

Oh, I see. That does clear things up a bit for me.

Is this a common talking point between Christians, then? Whether belief is enough? What kind of action does "the other side" say is necessary?

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether. Grace is the foundation on which Paul"s entire ministry was built, and grace covers all the bases for the believer"s life. There is a glory that belongs to God"s grace, and it is to be praised on the bases on what God"s grace has accomplished. R32;

Paul had been given special divine authority with the understanding that he is our apostle, and that authority carried with it the details of what God expects people to believe today, concerning the salvation Jesus Christ purchased for them with his sacrifice. R32;

Therefore, God in his infinite wisdom devised a plan whereby he could take the very faith belonging to his son, along with its resultant faithfulness, and credit that faith and faithfulness to the account of those who believe. It is Christ"s faith that is freely credited to the account of the one who believes the good news message given to the apostle Paul to proclaim to us in this age of grace. R32;

Paul wants us to know how a person is saved. He wants us to understand the basis by which God provides eternal security, not only has provided the gift of salvation; but provides eternal security to all those who place their faith in what the sacrifice of his son accomplished. It is our faith in the accomplishment of Jesus Christ"s faithful sacrifice that is the means whereby God acknowledges that we have accepted the gift his son purchased.
newnature
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3/29/2016 11:41:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul"s also referring to the fact that God"s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is an expression denoting the point when God began to judicially join believers to his son, the Body of Christ is not about program, but about judicial identity. R32;

God forgave us, not because he had to, but because it was his desire too. God accomplished through Christ what we could never do on our own. God did not wait for us to do the first step. God had a choice, Jesus Christ had a choice, and they chose to do it. Christ believed that his sacrifice would settle the sin issue once and for all, and that God would raise him from among the dead. R32;

What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person. Sin causes a debt to God so large that it can never be paid by ourselves, but the person who knows what Jesus Christ really accomplished, exist in a completely new relationship with God. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ"s righteousness. R32;

Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. God could only declare us to be right on the bases of who and what he is, not on the bases of who and what we would be apart from him. God had to devise a way to see us that way, and the way he devised to do that was by joining us to, hiding us in our perfectly righteous savior, thus freely crediting to our account Christ righteousness.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/29/2016 11:51:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:36:54 PM, newnature wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:47:05 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 5:10:56 PM, newnature wrote:
By removing the sin issue from the table of God"s justice, God effectively canceled the great usurper's ownership of all the human race. The great usurper can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.

God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God"s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins.

We need redemption to LIVE in the here and now to fulfill the Law of Love! Christ's ministry directs us how to live unto eternal life. He laid down his life for his friends, and had the power to lay it down and take it up again.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It just so happens that he also fulfilled the sacrifice of the demiurge - but that sacrifice is not his main purpose, redemption and forgiveness is his purpose so that we can have LIFE more abundantly.

John 10:10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

No one needs to be told how to live the Christian life,

I agree the change is from within - but tell that to evangelists that try to propose marriage is to be sought after by single moms who have already been forgiven for sins of the flesh. They'd have young attractive single moms believe that abstinence isn't possible so marriage to some divorced lust ridden vulture who hides in the church is righteousness.

it"s not about trying to change something, it"s trying to understand something, and then work with that understanding.

There is no need to try to understand when inner cleansing is experienced, thru faith in Christ and the working of His Spirit. He becomes the guide and understanding then comes from within.

Paul calls it a labor of love, the members of the Body of Christ are to be the supporting cast of the Body of Christ.

Paul can call it whatever he chooses, Christ can directly motivate believers in Love and it is not Labor - it is Liberty TO Love completely.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Casten
Posts: 391
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3/29/2016 11:59:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:41:10 PM, newnature wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul"s also referring to the fact that God"s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is an expression denoting the point when God began to judicially join believers to his son, the Body of Christ is not about program, but about judicial identity. R32;

God forgave us, not because he had to, but because it was his desire too. God accomplished through Christ what we could never do on our own. God did not wait for us to do the first step. God had a choice, Jesus Christ had a choice, and they chose to do it. Christ believed that his sacrifice would settle the sin issue once and for all, and that God would raise him from among the dead. R32;

What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person. Sin causes a debt to God so large that it can never be paid by ourselves, but the person who knows what Jesus Christ really accomplished, exist in a completely new relationship with God. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ"s righteousness. R32;

Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. God could only declare us to be right on the bases of who and what he is, not on the bases of who and what we would be apart from him. God had to devise a way to see us that way, and the way he devised to do that was by joining us to, hiding us in our perfectly righteous savior, thus freely crediting to our account Christ righteousness.

Are you Protestant?
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/30/2016 12:03:01 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:48:15 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:36:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

Not so much proven, but that one only truly comes to love God by fully giving of oneself. Love is a self sacrificial relationship. You don't have to prove anything to God, 'cause God already knows. It is by doing that you become more like God and learn to hate sin.

Many protestant denominations will preach salvation by faith alone, or one saved always saved. It varies across a spectrum.

Which view do you support?

The realization that God"s love accomplished some fantastic things on our behalf. God is anxiously awaiting his own inheritance, which happens to be us. God considers believers to be his own inheritance, he purchased us with the blood of his son, we are God"s valuable inheritance. We find the amazing and comforting truth that God"s love for those who are joined to his son, is the same unalterable and unending love God has for his son. R32;

That is how closely connected we are to Christ, nothing will ever be able to diminish God"s loving attitude towards those who are joined to his son. We are called "saints" today, "set apart ones," that is the word God uses for those who have placed their faith in the all-sufficiency of the sin-resolving sacrifice of his son, Jesus Christ. We are the saints of a brand new program, to be identified in Christ makes a person a saint, because we have the very righteousness of God himself freely attributed to our account. R32;

Grace is that which God does for the human race through his son, which the human race can not earn, does not deserve and will never merit. Grace is God"s work for people, and encompasses everything we receive from God, he is free to do now for ungodly people who take him at his word. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, he has predestined us to that glorification, we are objects of God"s purpose, because God had a purpose in mind where grace age believers are concerned, and he predetermined through his own decree that his purpose would stand, it will come to pass no matter what. R32;

The inevitable result of God"s grace to the believer is true peace, because every believer is without blame before him in love. God sees us in Christ, and Christ was blameless. The only reason God could say through Paul, "Grace and Peace be unto you" is because God"s son fully paid the price. Justification by grace through faith, what a marvelous thing God has done, and who would have thought of a salvation in the sense that God"s plan would call for him to join a person to his son, therefore, what belongs to the son would now belong to believing people who have been joined to the son.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/30/2016 12:05:21 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:50:01 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:48:15 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:36:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

Not so much proven, but that one only truly comes to love God by fully giving of oneself. Love is a self sacrificial relationship. You don't have to prove anything to God, 'cause God already knows. It is by doing that you become more like God and learn to hate sin.

Many protestant denominations will preach salvation by faith alone, or one saved always saved. It varies across a spectrum.

Which view do you support?

I'm Catholic.

Here is the history that lead to Nicene Creed, the early Christians who chose the human and divine route, though they had to spilt this up. Some believed Jesus was always divine; others believed Jesus became divine. R32;

If Jesus became divine, then when did he become divine, at his birth, at his baptism, or at his resurrection? Other Christians say, no, he always was divine, but even they believed in different choices too, because some believed Jesus was divine but also fully human. R32;

Other Christians believed Jesus was fully divine but not fully human. They believed Jesus was so divine he was God, so that when Jesus walked along on wet sand on the beach, his feet did not leave footprints, that is how divine he was, but this belief became declared as a heresy. R32;

Out of all these choices, only one of them is considered Orthodox by the later church, so that what Christians end up with is the Nicene Creed, or the Creed of Chalcedon, which is what Christians came to believe? There were lots of complexities in early Christianity that finally got whittled down into a more united consensus view on Christology.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/30/2016 12:37:37 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:32:55 PM, Rami wrote:
Hey, it seems that that there are a bunch of Chrisitans here. Interested in a team debate, Judaism VS Christiany?

Paul was never about starting a new religion. There"s no "Christianity" in Paul"s letters. There are no "Christians" in Paul"s letters. You can"t find the word. You can"t find the concept. But Judaism is a huge concept. Israel"s promised kingdom was right at their doorstep, right within their grasp, but that promised program was put on hold. The very blood that was to initiate Israel"s New Covenant, the body of Christ have a fellowship in that, we have a communion with that blood, it"s the blood that redeemed us as well.
newnature
Posts: 150
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3/30/2016 12:50:54 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:59:48 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:41:10 PM, newnature wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:09:32 PM, Casten wrote:
At 3/29/2016 9:55:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is a major difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations.

Catholics would say you have to do what Jesus told you to do:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.

I could go on and on, but that is a 2 minute answer...

So Catholics hold the position that belief must be proven in deed, and Protestants hold the position that belief is enough? This is news to me.

When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul"s also referring to the fact that God"s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is an expression denoting the point when God began to judicially join believers to his son, the Body of Christ is not about program, but about judicial identity. R32;

God forgave us, not because he had to, but because it was his desire too. God accomplished through Christ what we could never do on our own. God did not wait for us to do the first step. God had a choice, Jesus Christ had a choice, and they chose to do it. Christ believed that his sacrifice would settle the sin issue once and for all, and that God would raise him from among the dead. R32;

What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person. Sin causes a debt to God so large that it can never be paid by ourselves, but the person who knows what Jesus Christ really accomplished, exist in a completely new relationship with God. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ"s righteousness. R32;

Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. God could only declare us to be right on the bases of who and what he is, not on the bases of who and what we would be apart from him. God had to devise a way to see us that way, and the way he devised to do that was by joining us to, hiding us in our perfectly righteous savior, thus freely crediting to our account Christ righteousness.

Are you Protestant?

It is imperative to our growth and maturity that we believe God"s truth about who we are in Christ. God is looking at our identification with his son and at what his energizing power from on high is producing in us, because that is where our life is as far as God is concerned. We cannot use experience to prove the validity of our doctrinal position, we must always use doctrine to prove the validity of our experience. R32;

Our brains are an engine of understanding, our transformation process that is taking place in our lives as we take in the Word of God and apply it to the details of our lives, it is only when we come to properly understand God from his perspective concerning ourselves. The battle is taking place between the ears, between fleshy thinking and divine thinking. Trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is going to do it whether we pray or not. God knows precisely what he is going to do. R32;

Paul doesn"t tell us that we are filled with God"s energizing power from on high, but instead, Paul is telling us that we should be filled with God"s energizing power from on high. In other words, we should allow God"s energizing power from on high to be in control of our lives. God"s energizing power from on high works in us, but only to the degree that we are willing to yield ourselves to God"s use in our ministry of reconciliation. R32;

The most dangerous and harmful detriments to our growth is passivity, putting our mind in neutral and coasting, sitting back and waiting for God to do everything is not God"s way to maturity. Our old pattern for thinking and responding to our sin-trained flesh must be transformed by the renewing of our mind, it is our responsibility to change our behavior by putting to death the deeds of the body.