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Would Muslims agree with Romans 7?

Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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4/2/2016 10:19:00 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

I am a muslim and I agree with you.
RedAtheist912
Posts: 89
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4/2/2016 10:41:24 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

May an atheist comment on this?
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/2/2016 7:01:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 10:19:00 AM, frbnsn wrote:

I am a muslim and I agree with you.
Thank you for answering.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/2/2016 7:01:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 10:41:24 AM, RedAtheist912 wrote:

May an atheist comment on this?
Absolutely, just try to refrain from making comments like a user named "bulproof," who stated the following in my other thread:
"You realise, I hope, that these characters are just names in a jewish folk tale?
They never existed."
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/2/2016 9:18:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 7:01:27 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 4/2/2016 10:41:24 AM, RedAtheist912 wrote:

May an atheist comment on this?
Absolutely, just try to refrain from making comments like a user named "bulproof," who stated the following in my other thread:
"You realise, I hope, that these characters are just names in a jewish folk tale?
They never existed."

Truth hurts, Huh?
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/3/2016 2:00:03 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin?

- No.

As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will?

- That isn't even true.

Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

- God does whatever He pleases. We hope He forgives when we repent. We don't know whether He will though.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/3/2016 2:29:20 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 2:00:03 AM, Yassine wrote:

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin?

- No.
So someone could live a life without ever sinning?

As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will?

- That isn't even true.
So you have never lied and repented only to find yourself lying again?

Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

- God does whatever He pleases. We hope He forgives when we repent. We don't know whether He will though.
There is no guarantee that Allah will forgive one of his followers, even if they genuinely repented?
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/3/2016 3:01:24 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 2:29:20 AM, Elihu wrote:

So someone could live a life without ever sinning?

- Yes, prophets. The answer is a little more sophisticated than that. We believe all humans are equal in birth such that their souls are in the pure state of Fitrah, a state of submission to God. Upon being born into this world, the human soul faces various internal & external influences which may lead it to either preserve -to a certain degree- its pure state (of submission), or damage it.

So you have never lied and repented only to find yourself lying again?

- It's possible. Your point?

There is no guarantee that Allah will forgive one of his followers, even if they genuinely repented?

- No. But knowing Allah is Oft-Merciful gives hope that He will. In Islam, none can guarantee his own fate, not even prophets. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "there is none amongst you whose deeds alone would attain salvation for him", he was asked: 'Allah's Messenger, not even you?' He (pbuh) replied "not even I, unless Allah wraps me in Mercy and grants me forgiveness." [http://sunnah.com...]. That is, none can decide in the stead of God.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,755
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4/3/2016 1:04:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

Response: In Islam, it is taught that everyone is born a Muslim. That is because by definition, a Muslim is one who submits their will to Allah (God). When a person is born, their human nature is created not by the person, but by Allah. Hence we are all born Muslims because we are all born in submission to human nature that Allah willed to be, thus making us all Muslims since we are born in submission to the will of Allah.

It is also in our nature since birth to be more inclined to be loving and caring, then it is to be mean or evil. So Islam does not believe that we have a natural inclination to sin. Rather, we have more of a natural inclination to be good, loving and caring. However, we also have the attribute to lust and lust is influenced by our environment and upbringing , which causes us to crave more sinful activities and wrong doing rather than to follow our natural inclination and be a good Muslim.
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/3/2016 1:13:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 3:01:24 AM, Yassine wrote:
I apologize for the late reply. I was not made aware that you had responded to me.

So someone could live a life without ever sinning?

- Yes, prophets. The answer is a little more sophisticated than that. We believe all humans are equal in birth such that their souls are in the pure state of Fitrah, a state of submission to God. Upon being born into this world, the human soul faces various internal & external influences which may lead it to either preserve -to a certain degree- its pure state (of submission), or damage it.
I see. So I guess the Biblical accounts of prophets sinning are rejected?

So you have never lied and repented only to find yourself lying again?

- It's possible. Your point?
My point is that we have a natural inclination to lie when it is easier than telling the truth. We have a natural inclination to lust when we see someone of the opposite sex who is physically attractive. This is indeed a weakness on our end, perhaps one that God recognizes.

There is no guarantee that Allah will forgive one of his followers, even if they genuinely repented?

- No. But knowing Allah is Oft-Merciful gives hope that He will. In Islam, none can guarantee his own fate, not even prophets. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "there is none amongst you whose deeds alone would attain salvation for him", he was asked: 'Allah's Messenger, not even you?' He (pbuh) replied "not even I, unless Allah wraps me in Mercy and grants me forgiveness." [http://sunnah.com...]. That is, none can decide in the stead of God.
Interesting. Thank you for explaining that. There is a completely different perspective in Christianity. How do you view what is said in Surah Az-Zumar verse 53? It reads:
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

This seems like a rather direct statement. All sins committed by servants of Allah will be forgiven.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/3/2016 1:13:34 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 1:04:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: In Islam, it is taught that everyone is born a Muslim. That is because by definition, a Muslim is one who submits their will to Allah (God). When a person is born, their human nature is created not by the person, but by Allah. Hence we are all born Muslims because we are all born in submission to human nature that Allah willed to be, thus making us all Muslims since we are born in submission to the will of Allah.

It is also in our nature since birth to be more inclined to be loving and caring, then it is to be mean or evil. So Islam does not believe that we have a natural inclination to sin. Rather, we have more of a natural inclination to be good, loving and caring. However, we also have the attribute to lust and lust is influenced by our environment and upbringing , which causes us to crave more sinful activities and wrong doing rather than to follow our natural inclination and be a good Muslim.
So what would be an ideal environment to preserve the sinless nature?
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/3/2016 2:03:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

"The concept of original sin simply does not exist in Islam, and never has. There is no concept of "sinning in the mind" in Islam; to a Muslim, an evil thought becomes a good deed when a person refuses to act upon it. Overcoming and dismissing the evil thoughts which forever assail our minds is considered deserving of reward rather than punishment. Islamicly speaking, an evil thought only becomes sinful when acted upon.

So, good thoughts are not always the first instinct of humankind. As such, the Islamic understanding is that the very conception of good deeds is worthy of reward, even if not acted upon. When a person actually acts upon a good thought, Allah multiplies the reward even further."
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/3/2016 9:31:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 1:13:29 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 4/3/2016 3:01:24 AM, Yassine wrote:
I apologize for the late reply. I was not made aware that you had responded to me.

- No problem. At your leisure.

I see. So I guess the Biblical accounts of prophets sinning are rejected?

- Indeed.

My point is that we have a natural inclination to lie when it is easier than telling the truth.

- I wouldn't call it 'natural'. On the contrary, telling the truth is supposed to make a person feel better about themselves as opposed to lying, unless the person's pure state is damaged. In general, human beings are naturally inclined to distinguish between right & wrong, depending on how preserved their pure states is.

We have a natural inclination to lust when we see someone of the opposite sex who is physically attractive.

- That is natural (instinctual), indeed ; which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We don't believe lust or sexual intercourse to be sinful, on the contrary. Lust is immoral/sinful only when inappropriate, i.e. for someone other than one's spouse.

This is indeed a weakness on our end, perhaps one that God recognizes.

- We don't believe it to be such. We believe there ought to be balance within one's souls between the Instinctual (Ghariza, desire for food, sex & rest) & the Intellectual ('Aq'l). Such that, too much of one at the expense of the other is undesirable. Our Instinctual side is, indeed, vital for our survival, without it we wouldn't survive as a species (without: rest, reproduction & sustenance).

Interesting. Thank you for explaining that. There is a completely different perspective in Christianity.

- Which is?

How do you view what is said in Surah Az-Zumar verse 53? It reads:
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

- Yes, Allah forgives all sins, according to His Will, not according to ours. In fact, we believe Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell, & the ungrateful ones to Heaven.

This seems like a rather direct statement. All sins committed by servants of Allah will be forgiven.

- Not in that sense, no. The verse indicates all types of sins can be forgiven, not every individual sin made by every individual person.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/3/2016 10:37:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 2:03:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

"The concept of original sin simply does not exist in Islam, and never has. There is no concept of "sinning in the mind" in Islam; to a Muslim, an evil thought becomes a good deed when a person refuses to act upon it. Overcoming and dismissing the evil thoughts which forever assail our minds is considered deserving of reward rather than punishment. Islamicly speaking, an evil thought only becomes sinful when acted upon.

So, good thoughts are not always the first instinct of humankind. As such, the Islamic understanding is that the very conception of good deeds is worthy of reward, even if not acted upon. When a person actually acts upon a good thought, Allah multiplies the reward even further."

Where is the apology for me, I responded to your post as well?
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/3/2016 10:41:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 9:31:07 PM, Yassine wrote:

My point is that we have a natural inclination to lie when it is easier than telling the truth.

- I wouldn't call it 'natural'. On the contrary, telling the truth is supposed to make a person feel better about themselves as opposed to lying, unless the person's pure state is damaged. In general, human beings are naturally inclined to distinguish between right & wrong, depending on how preserved their pure states is.
I understand what you mean. However, let me set up a scenario. Let's say that I want to avoid hanging out with a friend, so I tell them I will be working on classwork and cannot go out. Then when asked by that friend if I finished my classwork (the classwork that was fabricated and not real), I simply say I have. These are two lies I have told, but it is easier and arguably kinder than simply saying "no, I would rather not hang out" (which may result in them being offended).

We have a natural inclination to lust when we see someone of the opposite sex who is physically attractive.

- That is natural (instinctual), indeed ; which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We don't believe lust or sexual intercourse to be sinful, on the contrary. Lust is immoral/sinful only when inappropriate, i.e. for someone other than one's spouse.
And if one does not have a spouse?

Interesting. Thank you for explaining that. There is a completely different perspective in Christianity.

- Which is?
Christians have a very specific set of "requirements" to attain salvation. God himself has laid them out in his Word. Assuming one meets them, then they will attain salvation. There is no threat of an inconsistency on God's end.

How do you view what is said in Surah Az-Zumar verse 53? It reads:
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

- Yes, Allah forgives all sins, according to His Will, not according to ours. In fact, we believe Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell, & the ungrateful ones to Heaven.
Does that not bother you? Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

This seems like a rather direct statement. All sins committed by servants of Allah will be forgiven.

- Not in that sense, no. The verse indicates all types of sins can be forgiven, not every individual sin made by every individual person.
Thank you for clarifying.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/3/2016 10:58:02 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 10:41:48 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 4/3/2016 9:31:07 PM, Yassine wrote:

My point is that we have a natural inclination to lie when it is easier than telling the truth.

- I wouldn't call it 'natural'. On the contrary, telling the truth is supposed to make a person feel better about themselves as opposed to lying, unless the person's pure state is damaged. In general, human beings are naturally inclined to distinguish between right & wrong, depending on how preserved their pure states is.
I understand what you mean. However, let me set up a scenario. Let's say that I want to avoid hanging out with a friend, so I tell them I will be working on classwork and cannot go out. Then when asked by that friend if I finished my classwork (the classwork that was fabricated and not real), I simply say I have. These are two lies I have told, but it is easier and arguably kinder than simply saying "no, I would rather not hang out" (which may result in them being offended).

We have a natural inclination to lust when we see someone of the opposite sex who is physically attractive.

- That is natural (instinctual), indeed ; which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We don't believe lust or sexual intercourse to be sinful, on the contrary. Lust is immoral/sinful only when inappropriate, i.e. for someone other than one's spouse.
And if one does not have a spouse?

Interesting. Thank you for explaining that. There is a completely different perspective in Christianity.

- Which is?
Christians have a very specific set of "requirements" to attain salvation. God himself has laid them out in his Word. Assuming one meets them, then they will attain salvation. There is no threat of an inconsistency on God's end.

How do you view what is said in Surah Az-Zumar verse 53? It reads:
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

- Yes, Allah forgives all sins, according to His Will, not according to ours. In fact, we believe Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell, & the ungrateful ones to Heaven.
Does that not bother you? Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

Yassine is a friend of mine. How can a God loving Christian tell someone he is talking to for the first time that the possibility of hell is still possible even though my friend has been a faithful servant to the God of Abraham. Christians worship a Jewish corpse nailed to a wooden cross who was crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy. Read your bible, Dude!!!

This seems like a rather direct statement. All sins committed by servants of Allah will be forgiven.

- Not in that sense, no. The verse indicates all types of sins can be forgiven, not every individual sin made by every individual person.
Thank you for clarifying.
Elihu
Posts: 87
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4/3/2016 11:05:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 10:58:02 PM, Harikrish wrote:

- Yes, Allah forgives all sins, according to His Will, not according to ours. In fact, we believe Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell, & the ungrateful ones to Heaven.
Does that not bother you? Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

Yassine is a friend of mine. How can a God loving Christian tell someone he is talking to for the first time that the possibility of hell is still possible even though my friend has been a faithful servant to the God of Abraham. Christians worship a Jewish corpse nailed to a wooden cross who was crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy. Read your bible, Dude!!!
I am not suggesting that he will go to hell. I am inquiring about what he himself said. He stated that "Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell." I was asking if that bothered him, since I imagine he has worked hard to be pious and a good servant. I do not mind you contributing to the discussion, but do not try and create conflict where there is not.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/3/2016 11:11:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 11:05:47 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 4/3/2016 10:58:02 PM, Harikrish wrote:

- Yes, Allah forgives all sins, according to His Will, not according to ours. In fact, we believe Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell, & the ungrateful ones to Heaven.
Does that not bother you? Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

Yassine is a friend of mine. How can a God loving Christian tell someone he is talking to for the first time that the possibility of hell is still possible even though my friend has been a faithful servant to the God of Abraham. Christians worship a Jewish corpse nailed to a wooden cross who was crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy. Read your bible, Dude!!!
I am not suggesting that he will go to hell. I am inquiring about what he himself said. He stated that "Allah has the Will & choice to send pious people to Hell." I was asking if that bothered him, since I imagine he has worked hard to be pious and a good servant. I do not mind you contributing to the discussion, but do not try and create conflict where there is not.

But there is a conflict. You believe a Jewish corpse nailed to a cross has the power to send sinners to heaven.
Elihu
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4/3/2016 11:13:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 11:11:39 PM, Harikrish wrote:

But there is a conflict. You believe a Jewish corpse nailed to a cross has the power to send sinners to heaven.
That did not appear to be your objection. I am not interested in discussing the validity of Christ as our savior. If you want to contribute to the topic at hand, then I will be more than willing to respond. Otherwise, I will not.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/3/2016 11:16:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 11:13:25 PM, Elihu wrote:
At 4/3/2016 11:11:39 PM, Harikrish wrote:

But there is a conflict. You believe a Jewish corpse nailed to a cross has the power to send sinners to heaven.
That did not appear to be your objection. I am not interested in discussing the validity of Christ as our savior. If you want to contribute to the topic at hand, then I will be more than willing to respond. Otherwise, I will not.

You did not consider the totality of your position.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/4/2016 12:54:58 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

You have to point at, kiss, touch the black kaaba stone. No image worship or idolotry there...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/4/2016 12:57:25 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

Here's what "forgives their sins". A bit resembling of Revelation...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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4/4/2016 12:58:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
The black stone

http://www.crystalinks.com...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/4/2016 1:00:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/2/2016 4:52:34 AM, Elihu wrote:
I have asked another question directed toward Muslims this week, but it is not because I am trying to slander them. I am studying Islam in depth and sometimes questions pop into my head. Would Muslims agree with the statement made by Paul in Romans 7:18-25? It reads:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(NIV)

In other words, would Muslims agree that humans have a natural inclination to sin? As in we do the things we say we will never do, yet we never do the things we say we will? Would a Muslim agree that God knows these things and will forgive those who genuinely repent?

And yes, they bow to it. And yes, they are looking for it to literally speak at the apocolypse. Some say it speaks to them now.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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4/4/2016 1:05:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Do they bow to it? Yep.

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/4/2016 1:16:01 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
1)"Islamic tradition holds that the Black Stone fell from Heaven (Jannah) to show Adam and Eve where to build an altar."

Oh nice. It "fell from Heaven".(Satan fell from Heaven)

2) Muslims believe that the stone was originally pure and dazzling white, but has since turned black.

It was white. Now it's black...

3) Thus Allah wrote this confirmation. And this stone has a pair of eyes, ears and a tongue and it opened its mouth upon the order of Allah (swt), who put that confirmation in it and ordered to witness it to all those worshippers who come for Hajj."

4) allegorical hadith which asserts that "the Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favor of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba".

Lovely. It "speaks".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/4/2016 3:19:41 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Holy Bible

The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed."
(Revelation 13:15)

Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/5/2016 2:41:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 10:41:48 PM, Elihu wrote:

I understand what you mean. However, let me set up a scenario. Let's say that I want to avoid hanging out with a friend, so I tell them I will be working on classwork and cannot go out. Then when asked by that friend if I finished my classwork (the classwork that was fabricated and not real), I simply say I have. These are two lies I have told, but it is easier and arguably kinder than simply saying "no, I would rather not hang out" (which may result in them being offended).

- They'd be more offended if they knew you were lying. & lying doesn't even set well with one's self, honesty does. Lying is not a virtue, Truth is.

And if one does not have a spouse?

- Then one should get one.

Christians have a very specific set of "requirements" to attain salvation. God himself has laid them out in his Word. Assuming one meets them, then they will attain salvation. There is no threat of an inconsistency on God's end.

- We believe God will keep His promise, but we also believe God has the Will to chose not to.

Does that not bother you?

- That would negate the fact of being Muslim, that is, a person in submission to God. We believe God will reward the grateful & punish the ungrateful, as per what He has revealed to us, but we also believe He has the Will to chose to do either or neither or the opposite. & nobody may have any complaints.

Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

- I do not decide my fate, God does. I am a mere creature, like all other creatures, all equally insignificant to God. None possess any inherent quality to deserve anything from God, unless God choses so: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)

Thank you for clarifying.

- My pleasure, always.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/5/2016 3:02:54 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 2:41:09 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/3/2016 10:41:48 PM, Elihu wrote:

I understand what you mean. However, let me set up a scenario. Let's say that I want to avoid hanging out with a friend, so I tell them I will be working on classwork and cannot go out. Then when asked by that friend if I finished my classwork (the classwork that was fabricated and not real), I simply say I have. These are two lies I have told, but it is easier and arguably kinder than simply saying "no, I would rather not hang out" (which may result in them being offended).

- They'd be more offended if they knew you were lying. & lying doesn't even set well with one's self, honesty does. Lying is not a virtue, Truth is.

And if one does not have a spouse?

- Then one should get one.

Christians have a very specific set of "requirements" to attain salvation. God himself has laid them out in his Word. Assuming one meets them, then they will attain salvation. There is no threat of an inconsistency on God's end.

- We believe God will keep His promise, but we also believe God has the Will to chose not to.

Does that not bother you?

- That would negate the fact of being Muslim, that is, a person in submission to God. We believe God will reward the grateful & punish the ungrateful, as per what He has revealed to us, but we also believe He has the Will to chose to do either or neither or the opposite. & nobody may have any complaints.

Even if you worked hard at becoming a faithful servant and submit your will, you still have the possibility of hell?

- I do not decide my fate, God does. I am a mere creature, like all other creatures, all equally insignificant to God. None possess any inherent quality to deserve anything from God, unless God choses so: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)

Thank you for clarifying.

- My pleasure, always.

When your god's title is the greatest Deceiver", why would you believe anything he says...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...