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Foreign atheists hate American atheists.

Skepticalone
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4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,260
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4/5/2016 3:09:56 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.
You will find Xenophobia everywhere, there is no rationality in it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 3:22:46 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:09:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.
You will find Xenophobia everywhere, there is no rationality in it.

I wouldn't say NO rationality. Being unable to classify something can be terrifying. If opened the curtain behind me and saw a floating, disembodied human arm signing ASL to me, I'd pack up and leave. Because of my lack of experience with such a thing, I'd have no way to classify it as a threat or not. I'd have to assume it was a threat, to be safe. Foreigners aren't as weird as that, but they are unfamiliar and uncomfortable to many people, so Xenophobes are just following human survival instincts.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/5/2016 3:56:46 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

It's a hard concept for many atheists to grasp that religions are not alike or even similar.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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4/5/2016 4:04:10 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous.

Okay, I could not get that far because of the ridiculously biased voiceover. If that is the case, I would suggest that American atheists may be concerned with what they see as the greater threat in their day to day lives. In that sense extreme Christians pose a much greater threat than the minority Islam uptake in America. It's quite understandable.

I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants.

It has plenty to do with immigrants and the male-dominated societies they originate from but I fail to see what it has to do with Islam per se and how it relates to the title of this thread.

I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists.

So he wants American atheists to attack Islam on an equal basis with Christianity? Equal opportunity criticism? You might see that when there is an equal quantity of extreme Muslims as there are extreme Christians in the USA. At present I don't think that is likely anytime soon.

Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Well, we atheists aren't very well organised. However, from my personal perspective I have firsthand knowledge of Christianity and find Christian beliefs (virgin birth, divine Jesus, trinity, etc.) much more ludicrous than the claims I hear of the Qur'an. If I knew more about Islam I would no doubt ridicule it to the same extent as Christianity.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,127
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4/5/2016 4:41:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.

My view is that religious extremism of any flavor is dangerous. I'm as concerned about ISIS as much as the next guy, but I'm actually more concerned that the constant hatred of ALL Islam being proliferated by Christians will generate sympathy for ISIS among moderate Muslims. ISIS (along with any religious extremism) is something to be resisted, regardless of religious views, and we should avoid alienating allies which, in the context of ISIS, is moderate Muslims.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 3:26:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
https://www.youtube.com...

Bill Maher is of similar mind with the first narrator.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 4:01:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:04:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous.

Okay, I could not get that far because of the ridiculously biased voiceover. If that is the case, I would suggest that American atheists may be concerned with what they see as the greater threat in their day to day lives. In that sense extreme Christians pose a much greater threat than the minority Islam uptake in America. It's quite understandable.

What do you mean when you say extreme Christian, and what is the threat they pose to atheists?


I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants.

It has plenty to do with immigrants and the male-dominated societies they originate from but I fail to see what it has to do with Islam per se and how it relates to the title of this thread.

The narrator was pointing out how American atheists have an inordinate deference to Islam vs. Christianity, as do the public officials in Europe, who are mostly secular in many of the countries in question, and that is an attitude the narrator can't stand in atheists. So why are the societies from which the immigrants come male-dominated, if not from Islam?


I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists.

So he wants American atheists to attack Islam on an equal basis with Christianity? Equal opportunity criticism? You might see that when there is an equal quantity of extreme Muslims as there are extreme Christians in the USA. At present I don't think that is likely anytime soon.

No, he wants criticism of groups equal to their actual threat. He details the vastly disproportianate amount of violence the Muslims commit in the US vs. their tiny population size (0.6% commit 12% of the terrorism)


Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Well, we atheists aren't very well organised. However, from my personal perspective I have firsthand knowledge of Christianity and find Christian beliefs (virgin birth, divine Jesus, trinity, etc.) much more ludicrous than the claims I hear of the Qur'an. If I knew more about Islam I would no doubt ridicule it to the same extent as Christianity.

If you were educated on the subject of what they believe, what they do, and how many of them believe certain things, you may change your mind on who is the bigger threat. You've been surrounded by Christians for your entire life if you are in many parts of the US. What is the actual threat they pose?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/5/2016 4:08:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?
Form the video it is clear the London caller was shocked that Americans found Christianity more dangerous than Islam. They pointed to the Pope, the Christian terrorists in America and that the majority of deaths in America are caused by Christians and not the peaceful Muslims.
They could have also added the Federal prison study that found 75% of the prison populations in America are Christians, proving Christians are more prone to criminal behaviour.

http://www.patheos.com...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/5/2016 4:10:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:08:23 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?
Form the video it is clear the London caller was shocked that Americans found Christianity more dangerous than Islam. They pointed to the Pope, the Christian terrorists in America and that the majority of deaths in America are caused by Christians and not the peaceful Muslims.
They could have also added the Federal prison study that found 75% of the prison populations in America are Christians, proving Christians are more prone to criminal behaviour.

http://www.patheos.com...

More words from the self appointed christian champion of DDO.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 4:13:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:41:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.

My view is that religious extremism of any flavor is dangerous. I'm as concerned about ISIS as much as the next guy, but I'm actually more concerned that the constant hatred of ALL Islam being proliferated by Christians will generate sympathy for ISIS among moderate Muslims. ISIS (along with any religious extremism) is something to be resisted, regardless of religious views, and we should avoid alienating allies which, in the context of ISIS, is moderate Muslims.

Muslims, like all cultural groups, tend to flock together. Moderates are less likely to take violent action. On top of that, fundamental Islam (strictly following the conservative interpretations of the Qu'ran) leads to condoning violence, because that's what the Qu'ran teaches. So those truely seeking the religion will end up being violent. The trend in all moderate Islamic nations in the 20th century is that they are becoming more and more overrun with violent fundamentalists. Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Libya, and Iraq are prime examples.

How does that compare with Christianity? Jesus strictly taught not to be violent or revolutionary. He snuffed out any attempts to overthrow the Romans or be violent against the Judean government in his name. Those truely seeking the religion will end up being peaceful, and very outspoken against people like Donald Trump, the Vatican, Hitler, etc., who claim Christianity but act in violent or dishonest ways. What we teach about Islam is that it IS dangerous, and for the sakes of the nations who are about to be slaughtered and oppressed by them, it is wise to defend yourselves. But Christians who are under Islamic rule don't normally try violent revolution but turn the other cheek or flee. That's why all the Christians are dying off under ISIS.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/5/2016 4:41:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:13:54 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:41:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.

My view is that religious extremism of any flavor is dangerous. I'm as concerned about ISIS as much as the next guy, but I'm actually more concerned that the constant hatred of ALL Islam being proliferated by Christians will generate sympathy for ISIS among moderate Muslims. ISIS (along with any religious extremism) is something to be resisted, regardless of religious views, and we should avoid alienating allies which, in the context of ISIS, is moderate Muslims.

Muslims, like all cultural groups, tend to flock together. Moderates are less likely to take violent action. On top of that, fundamental Islam (strictly following the conservative interpretations of the Qu'ran) leads to condoning violence, because that's what the Qu'ran teaches. So those truely seeking the religion will end up being violent. The trend in all moderate Islamic nations in the 20th century is that they are becoming more and more overrun with violent fundamentalists. Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Libya, and Iraq are prime examples.

How does that compare with Christianity? Jesus strictly taught not to be violent or revolutionary. He snuffed out any attempts to overthrow the Romans or be violent against the Judean government in his name. Those truely seeking the religion will end up being peaceful, and very outspoken against people like Donald Trump, the Vatican, Hitler, etc., who claim Christianity but act in violent or dishonest ways. What we teach about Islam is that it IS dangerous, and for the sakes of the nations who are about to be slaughtered and oppressed by them, it is wise to defend yourselves. But Christians who are under Islamic rule don't normally try violent revolution but turn the other cheek or flee. That's why all the Christians are dying off under ISIS.

The Christian coalition has been bombing Muslim countries for the last 15 years in response to a single bombing by a handful of Islamic extremists on 9/11. That is the difference between the peace loving Muslims and the hate filled Christian coalition. The ISIS is a creation of Americas unjustified invasion of Iraq which turned it into a failed state after a decade of American occupation and missteps.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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4/5/2016 5:06:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.
Very interesting video.

I would say that there's a good possibility that foreign atheists are generally more intelligent than American atheists. At least the activist American atheists. I think atheists in places like Europe are a lot more experienced in the negative effects of propaganda. We here in the States have never had to go through what many nations have had to endure over the centuries. We've never been invaded by ground troops from a national army on our land, experienced harsh dictatorship, etc.

I think a European atheist (as an example) would be more likely to properly analyze issues of religion, realizing that false information can be costly. A number of American atheists don't seem to possess that type of valuable reasoning. They are either extremely ignorant, or just not able to control what they say.
matt8800
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4/5/2016 7:35:02 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

I think many atheists are going to be more vocal about the religion that has the biggest impact on their daily lives. In America, that is going to be Christianity because of their political influence. In Europe, Islam poses a different and more extreme threat. Regardless, I don't think any intelligent person believes Christianity poses a bigger world threat than Islam.

In general, I think atheists are more independent thinkers by nature. As long as they are getting the same information, I don't think their geography plays much of a factor.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,127
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4/5/2016 7:44:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:13:54 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:41:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.

My view is that religious extremism of any flavor is dangerous. I'm as concerned about ISIS as much as the next guy, but I'm actually more concerned that the constant hatred of ALL Islam being proliferated by Christians will generate sympathy for ISIS among moderate Muslims. ISIS (along with any religious extremism) is something to be resisted, regardless of religious views, and we should avoid alienating allies which, in the context of ISIS, is moderate Muslims.

Muslims, like all cultural groups, tend to flock together. Moderates are less likely to take violent action. On top of that, fundamental Islam (strictly following the conservative interpretations of the Qu'ran) leads to condoning violence, because that's what the Qu'ran teaches. So those truely seeking the religion will end up being violent. The trend in all moderate Islamic nations in the 20th century is that they are becoming more and more overrun with violent fundamentalists. Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Libya, and Iraq are prime examples.

How does that compare with Christianity? Jesus strictly taught not to be violent or revolutionary. He snuffed out any attempts to overthrow the Romans or be violent against the Judean government in his name. Those truely seeking the religion will end up being peaceful, and very outspoken against people like Donald Trump, the Vatican, Hitler, etc., who claim Christianity but act in violent or dishonest ways. What we teach about Islam is that it IS dangerous, and for the sakes of the nations who are about to be slaughtered and oppressed by them, it is wise to defend yourselves. But Christians who are under Islamic rule don't normally try violent revolution but turn the other cheek or flee. That's why all the Christians are dying off under ISIS.

Perhaps you could explain to the Anti-balaka, who are currently beheading Muslims in Africa, how their interpretation of Christianity is wrong. Your comparison is not of the extremes of each religion. That is unfair to moderate Muslims, and I believe shows a bias.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/5/2016 9:36:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:41:12 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:13:54 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:41:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:04:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 7:25:11 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

Respectfully, ...so what?

I don't encounter the non-PC atheist view very much. I found it refreshing that there was some support for this view among some atheists that Christians are not as dangerous as Muslims. Islam, in general, is clearly a threat to public safety, but many (not all) socially liberal atheists treat them with kid gloves.

My view is that religious extremism of any flavor is dangerous. I'm as concerned about ISIS as much as the next guy, but I'm actually more concerned that the constant hatred of ALL Islam being proliferated by Christians will generate sympathy for ISIS among moderate Muslims. ISIS (along with any religious extremism) is something to be resisted, regardless of religious views, and we should avoid alienating allies which, in the context of ISIS, is moderate Muslims.

Muslims, like all cultural groups, tend to flock together. Moderates are less likely to take violent action. On top of that, fundamental Islam (strictly following the conservative interpretations of the Qu'ran) leads to condoning violence, because that's what the Qu'ran teaches. So those truely seeking the religion will end up being violent. The trend in all moderate Islamic nations in the 20th century is that they are becoming more and more overrun with violent fundamentalists. Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Libya, and Iraq are prime examples.

How does that compare with Christianity? Jesus strictly taught not to be violent or revolutionary. He snuffed out any attempts to overthrow the Romans or be violent against the Judean government in his name. Those truely seeking the religion will end up being peaceful, and very outspoken against people like Donald Trump, the Vatican, Hitler, etc., who claim Christianity but act in violent or dishonest ways. What we teach about Islam is that it IS dangerous, and for the sakes of the nations who are about to be slaughtered and oppressed by them, it is wise to defend yourselves. But Christians who are under Islamic rule don't normally try violent revolution but turn the other cheek or flee. That's why all the Christians are dying off under ISIS.

The Christian coalition has been bombing Muslim countries for the last 15 years in response to a single bombing by a handful of Islamic extremists on 9/11. That is the difference between the peace loving Muslims and the hate filled Christian coalition. The ISIS is a creation of Americas unjustified invasion of Iraq which turned it into a failed state after a decade of American occupation and missteps.

You're like a tree that cracked at the trunk and fell over, telling the world that it is sideways. "Christian coalition?" Exactly what about the EU makes it Christian other than some cultural history? Most of these nations glory in their secularism. The official stance of their public schools is that life evolved without God.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
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4/5/2016 9:38:20 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 5:06:24 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.
Very interesting video.

I would say that there's a good possibility that foreign atheists are generally more intelligent than American atheists. At least the activist American atheists. I think atheists in places like Europe are a lot more experienced in the negative effects of propaganda. We here in the States have never had to go through what many nations have had to endure over the centuries. We've never been invaded by ground troops from a national army on our land, experienced harsh dictatorship, etc.

I think a European atheist (as an example) would be more likely to properly analyze issues of religion, realizing that false information can be costly. A number of American atheists don't seem to possess that type of valuable reasoning. They are either extremely ignorant, or just not able to control what they say.

I have a relative from South Africa who agrees with you that America is naive as to the dangers of despotic governments. We only dealt with it personally once, when we were colonies, long ago.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
dee-em
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4/6/2016 2:20:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:01:52 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:04:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous.

Okay, I could not get that far because of the ridiculously biased voiceover. If that is the case, I would suggest that American atheists may be concerned with what they see as the greater threat in their day to day lives. In that sense extreme Christians pose a much greater threat than the minority Islam uptake in America. It's quite understandable.

What do you mean when you say extreme Christian, and what is the threat they pose to atheists?

Google "extreme Christian groups". They pose a greater threat than ISIS not just to atheists but to society in general, including moderate Christians.

I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants.

It has plenty to do with immigrants and the male-dominated societies they originate from but I fail to see what it has to do with Islam per se and how it relates to the title of this thread.

The narrator was pointing out how American atheists have an inordinate deference to Islam vs. Christianity, as do the public officials in Europe, who are mostly secular in many of the countries in question, and that is an attitude the narrator can't stand in atheists.

As I said, American atheists are probably concerned with the bigger threat. Perfectly understandable.

http://www.patheos.com...

So why are the societies from which the immigrants come male-dominated, if not from Islam?

Sure, a lot of it stems from religion. Or is the religion a reflection of the male dominated society from which it arose? You find exactly the same thing in many Christian sects, eg. Jehovah's Witnesses.

I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists.

So he wants American atheists to attack Islam on an equal basis with Christianity? Equal opportunity criticism? You might see that when there is an equal quantity of extreme Muslims as there are extreme Christians in the USA. At present I don't think that is likely anytime soon.

No, he wants criticism of groups equal to their actual threat. He details the vastly disproportianate amount of violence the Muslims commit in the US vs. their tiny population size (0.6% commit 12% of the terrorism).

The actual threat is much greater from extreme Christian groups. The violence arising from extreme Muslims may be disproportionate (and some of it, like 9/11 is external rather than internal), but it it still quite small in relation to extreme Christian violence.

Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Well, we atheists aren't very well organised. However, from my personal perspective I have firsthand knowledge of Christianity and find Christian beliefs (virgin birth, divine Jesus, trinity, etc.) much more ludicrous than the claims I hear of the Qur'an. If I knew more about Islam I would no doubt ridicule it to the same extent as Christianity.

If you were educated on the subject of what they believe, what they do, and how many of them believe certain things, you may change your mind on who is the bigger threat. You've been surrounded by Christians for your entire life if you are in many parts of the US. What is the actual threat they pose?

See above. (I'm actually in Sydney, Australia. The debate about Islam is somewhat similar but we don't have the same level of extreme Christianity here).
Skynet
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4/12/2016 6:19:23 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 2:20:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:01:52 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:04:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous.

Okay, I could not get that far because of the ridiculously biased voiceover. If that is the case, I would suggest that American atheists may be concerned with what they see as the greater threat in their day to day lives. In that sense extreme Christians pose a much greater threat than the minority Islam uptake in America. It's quite understandable.

What do you mean when you say extreme Christian, and what is the threat they pose to atheists?

Google "extreme Christian groups". They pose a greater threat than ISIS not just to atheists but to society in general, including moderate Christians.

I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants.

It has plenty to do with immigrants and the male-dominated societies they originate from but I fail to see what it has to do with Islam per se and how it relates to the title of this thread.

The narrator was pointing out how American atheists have an inordinate deference to Islam vs. Christianity, as do the public officials in Europe, who are mostly secular in many of the countries in question, and that is an attitude the narrator can't stand in atheists.

As I said, American atheists are probably concerned with the bigger threat. Perfectly understandable.

http://www.patheos.com...

So why are the societies from which the immigrants come male-dominated, if not from Islam?

Sure, a lot of it stems from religion. Or is the religion a reflection of the male dominated society from which it arose? You find exactly the same thing in many Christian sects, eg. Jehovah's Witnesses.

I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists.

So he wants American atheists to attack Islam on an equal basis with Christianity? Equal opportunity criticism? You might see that when there is an equal quantity of extreme Muslims as there are extreme Christians in the USA. At present I don't think that is likely anytime soon.

No, he wants criticism of groups equal to their actual threat. He details the vastly disproportianate amount of violence the Muslims commit in the US vs. their tiny population size (0.6% commit 12% of the terrorism).

The actual threat is much greater from extreme Christian groups. The violence arising from extreme Muslims may be disproportionate (and some of it, like 9/11 is external rather than internal), but it it still quite small in relation to extreme Christian violence.

Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Well, we atheists aren't very well organised. However, from my personal perspective I have firsthand knowledge of Christianity and find Christian beliefs (virgin birth, divine Jesus, trinity, etc.) much more ludicrous than the claims I hear of the Qur'an. If I knew more about Islam I would no doubt ridicule it to the same extent as Christianity.

If you were educated on the subject of what they believe, what they do, and how many of them believe certain things, you may change your mind on who is the bigger threat. You've been surrounded by Christians for your entire life if you are in many parts of the US. What is the actual threat they pose?

See above. (I'm actually in Sydney, Australia. The debate about Islam is somewhat similar but we don't have the same level of extreme Christianity here).

I dug into the topic of terrorist Christians for a few hours straight. Just based on following the sources on the Wikipedia article about extant terrorist groups, I have to say, maybe only one of those groups are actually Christian. I'm saying that not as a "No true Scotsman" argument, I'm saying that because a Christian is someone who follows Christ. Most of the groups in the US were white supremacist and anti-government. For one thing, there are no white people of significance in the Bible that I can find. There are Middle Easterners, Africans, Greeks, and the rare Italian. Italians haven't meet the definition of "white" until the last several decades when "white" came to mean anyone of European descent. (Americans of North and Western non-Iberian descent viewed even the Irish and Italians as ethnic outsiders until the last 100 years or so.) So the basis of white supremacy is totally non-biblical. I can cite verses to back that up, if you insist. Also, Jesus, as the one is going to return and take all governments under his authority when he returns had no purpose to incite rebellion, and actively spoke against subversion, even when it was popular in Roman occupied Judea. Other groups cited had very tenuous ties, or even only alleged ties to Christianity. One particular breakaway group in India was labeled "Christian" because of accusations of forced conversion. For one thing, allegations of forced conversion had been going on before that group arose by Hindus, the group had been killing other Christians and Catholics, and nothing in their charter says anything about God, the Bible, Christ/Jesus. I'll give you a break for not understanding Christianity in the US, and apologize for assuming you were also here. You have, what, 2% evangelical population in Australia? I'm telling you, as someone who lives here, Christian terrorism is something that doesn't occur. If there is someone who commits violence, they are usually way outside standard doctrine.

And that's really my point. If you follow orthodox Biblical Christianity, you have to be in a situation where war is already declared upon you and your government is not protecting you (American Revolution) before you can justify taking up arms in revolution. If you follow Islam, Mohammed utilized the religion he made up as a method to take power. When the people in his home town did not believe he was a prophet, he went elsewhere, built an army and went back and conquered it. Islam is a religion that demands religious control of the state, not just religious principals followed by individuals. How many Islamic nations have swords on their flags?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
autocorrect
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4/12/2016 7:33:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Naturally, I think - there has been an attempt to handle the narrative on Islamic terrorism to avoid the implication that Islam itself is the problem. The distinction made, and drilled into the minds of the populous by the media, was between good muslims and bad muslims, based on the fact that the vast majority of muslims don't actually commit terrorist acts. Interestingly however, there was a report published recently by Sir Trevor Phillips - former head of the UK Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and the man credited with popularizing the term Islamaphobia, that suggests that upto 30% of muslims in the UK admit to having sympathy for Islamic terrorists.
I can't speak for the opinions of atheists in the UK - but Kieran from the video was complaining of this manipulation - so it is noticeable to people who have a realist worldview, that this narrative has been manipulated, and only now - after the Paris and Brussels attacks, are we beginning to get to grips with the reality.
Two key differences between the UK and US are first - the UK is not as religious as the US generally, and so our atheists are generally speaking, not as vocal or organized either. It's paradoxical in some ways, that the US is officially secular - yet highly religious, while we have a monarch and established Church, and yet most British people are either only nominally Christian, or not religious at all. Second, the UK has a much higher percentage of Muslims living here than the US - to which, I suppose, you could add, we are much nearer, geographically, to Muslim countries.
Harking back to the video, I think this might explain why the hosts of the show don't recognize Kieran's problem; which is not to excuse the fact they don't, (what kind of parochial atheism is that?) but only to suggest this good muslim - bad muslim distinction, held in place by accusations of Islamaphobia, may persist longer in the US than in the UK and Europe.
Skynet
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4/14/2016 3:23:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 7:33:34 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Naturally, I think - there has been an attempt to handle the narrative on Islamic terrorism to avoid the implication that Islam itself is the problem. The distinction made, and drilled into the minds of the populous by the media, was between good muslims and bad muslims, based on the fact that the vast majority of muslims don't actually commit terrorist acts. Interestingly however, there was a report published recently by Sir Trevor Phillips - former head of the UK Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and the man credited with popularizing the term Islamaphobia, that suggests that upto 30% of muslims in the UK admit to having sympathy for Islamic terrorists.
I can't speak for the opinions of atheists in the UK - but Kieran from the video was complaining of this manipulation - so it is noticeable to people who have a realist worldview, that this narrative has been manipulated, and only now - after the Paris and Brussels attacks, are we beginning to get to grips with the reality.
Two key differences between the UK and US are first - the UK is not as religious as the US generally, and so our atheists are generally speaking, not as vocal or organized either. It's paradoxical in some ways, that the US is officially secular - yet highly religious, while we have a monarch and established Church, and yet most British people are either only nominally Christian, or not religious at all. Second, the UK has a much higher percentage of Muslims living here than the US - to which, I suppose, you could add, we are much nearer, geographically, to Muslim countries.
Harking back to the video, I think this might explain why the hosts of the show don't recognize Kieran's problem; which is not to excuse the fact they don't, (what kind of parochial atheism is that?) but only to suggest this good muslim - bad muslim distinction, held in place by accusations of Islamaphobia, may persist longer in the US than in the UK and Europe.

You make some good points. I don't find it that strange that people with a State church care less about religion. If religion is mandated, people are less likely to care about it on a personal level. Plus it looks less appealing when the Church is the bureaucratic equivalent of the Department of Motor Vehicles. Also, atheists and Communists were indiscreetly all lumped together during the Cold War, so the liberal/progressive/socialists homogenized with the atheists to a higher degree. Communists have been known to collude with Muslims when expedient because of a few common values (state ownership of property), and neither those two nor atheists in general have a particular liking for Christians. Throw in the US's strong Christian value foundation for our government, and an atheist/communist+Islamophile view is inevitable on the left.

Ultimately, Atheism and Islam are not compatible, so whoever wakes up first and discovers they are in bed with their enemy first will kill the other. In the USSR, the Communists were awake first. Right now in the West, it looks like Islam got up reaal early.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
autocorrect
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4/14/2016 6:58:55 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 3:23:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/12/2016 7:33:34 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

This is a new point of view.

What a joke. The Atheist Experience in Texas were providing perfectly reasonable responses to the London caller. Then the voiceover comes in with hysterical, nit-picking objections to what they just said. It was so sickeningly biased that I could only watch a few minutes. How could you watch this and come to the view that foreign atheists hate American atheists? It beggars belief.

If you watch the whole thing, the narrator claims repeatedly that he can't stand many American atheists because they view Christianity as so much worse than Islam, when clearly, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous, while only extremist "christians" and Christians tend to be dangerous. I know this isn't confined to American atheists, but is common in Europe, too, judging from some of the public policies they have. Right after a rash of rapes and assaults on New Years in many European cities by middle eastern immigrants, public officials went to great lengths to make it clear that this has nothing to do with Islam or immigrants. I only have so much room in the title, it's a little bit of click bait, but wanted to get the point across that this atheist, (wherever he was from) has a serious disagreement with what he sees as the dominant position on Islam amongst American atheists. Please tell me, from your observations, what is the dominant view toward Islam by atheists where you are?

Naturally, I think - there has been an attempt to handle the narrative on Islamic terrorism to avoid the implication that Islam itself is the problem. The distinction made, and drilled into the minds of the populous by the media, was between good muslims and bad muslims, based on the fact that the vast majority of muslims don't actually commit terrorist acts. Interestingly however, there was a report published recently by Sir Trevor Phillips - former head of the UK Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and the man credited with popularizing the term Islamaphobia, that suggests that upto 30% of muslims in the UK admit to having sympathy for Islamic terrorists.
I can't speak for the opinions of atheists in the UK - but Kieran from the video was complaining of this manipulation - so it is noticeable to people who have a realist worldview, that this narrative has been manipulated, and only now - after the Paris and Brussels attacks, are we beginning to get to grips with the reality.

Two key differences between the UK and US are first - the UK is not as religious as the US generally, and so our atheists are generally speaking, not as vocal or organized either. It's paradoxical in some ways, that the US is officially secular - yet highly religious, while we have a monarch and established Church, and yet most British people are either only nominally Christian, or not religious at all. Second, the UK has a much higher percentage of Muslims living here than the US - to which, I suppose, you could add, we are much nearer, geographically, to Muslim countries.
Harking back to the video, I think this might explain why the hosts of the show don't recognize Kieran's problem; which is not to excuse the fact they don't, (what kind of parochial atheism is that?) but only to suggest this good muslim - bad muslim distinction, held in place by accusations of Islamaphobia, may persist longer in the US than in the UK and Europe.


You make some good points. I don't find it that strange that people with a State church care less about religion. If religion is mandated, people are less likely to care about it on a personal level. Plus it looks less appealing when the Church is the bureaucratic equivalent of the Department of Motor Vehicles. Also, atheists and Communists were indiscreetly all lumped together during the Cold War, so the liberal/progressive/socialists homogenized with the atheists to a higher degree. Communists have been known to collude with Muslims when expedient because of a few common values (state ownership of property), and neither those two nor atheists in general have a particular liking for Christians. Throw in the US's strong Christian value foundation for our government, and an atheist/communist+Islamophile view is inevitable on the left.

Ultimately, Atheism and Islam are not compatible, so whoever wakes up first and discovers they are in bed with their enemy first will kill the other. In the USSR, the Communists were awake first. Right now in the West, it looks like Islam got up reaal early.

Oh, I see - I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but was it that McCarthy era accusations of communist sympathies labelled atheists as co-conspirators - because the USSR was officially atheist? We didn't do that here. We tamed our communists - bored them to death by getting them involved in politics! It took the Labour Party a century to get into government, by which time they were virtually indistinguishable from the Conservatives. There is perhaps an expectation to a pretence of Christianity among upper-class Conservatives - if they might conceivably bump into Her Majesty the Queen at a garden party, but overwhelmingly atheism here is not a matter of political allegiance - but of personal conscience, which is why - I was working toward an argument that the atheist viewpoint - that religion is bad in itself should be emphasized.
I entirely accept that the vast majority of muslims are ...let's say, sufficiently self-regarding they're not going to blow themselves up for Allah, but nonetheless, Islamic religion is the seedbed of this insanity - and that can only be countered from the atheist perspective, by pointing out religion is profoundly unreasonable. This argument may fall somewhat flat for you, if atheists are lumped in with the communists - and therefore viewed as enemies of the state, but condemning all religion equally, as the antithesis to the clear sighted scientific reason we will need going forward in face of some quite serious challenges - I would argue, is the way to tackle Islam.
RuvDraba
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4/14/2016 8:57:29 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...
This is a new point of view.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this being evidence of ideological divisions between foreign and US atheists, Sky.

From what I saw, an atheist vlogger seeking financial patronage (https://www.patreon.com...) criticised a popular online show called The Atheist Experience [http://www.atheist-experience.com...] for not being critical enough of Islam.

The Atheist Experience is based in Austin, Texas; the guy criticising them doesn't identify his homeland, but has a North American accent, and his account is linked to a Web identity called Atheist Roo, which is in turn linked via social media to the account of a UCLA Web design graduate called Devon Tracey.

Tracey may well have ideological differences with some other atheists, but he seems to be an American atheist arguing with other American atheists. Despite the kangaroo, I don't believe there's any reason to suppose he represents 'foreign' atheists in any way, just as there's no reason to suppose that atheists from the US or any other culture are all of one ideology in the first place.
Skynet
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4/14/2016 10:54:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 8:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...
This is a new point of view.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this being evidence of ideological divisions between foreign and US atheists, Sky.

From what I saw, an atheist vlogger seeking financial patronage (https://www.patreon.com...) criticised a popular online show called The Atheist Experience [http://www.atheist-experience.com...] for not being critical enough of Islam.

The Atheist Experience is based in Austin, Texas; the guy criticising them doesn't identify his homeland, but has a North American accent, and his account is linked to a Web identity called Atheist Roo, which is in turn linked via social media to the account of a UCLA Web design graduate called Devon Tracey.

Tracey may well have ideological differences with some other atheists, but he seems to be an American atheist arguing with other American atheists. Despite the kangaroo, I don't believe there's any reason to suppose he represents 'foreign' atheists in any way, just as there's no reason to suppose that atheists from the US or any other culture are all of one ideology in the first place.

I had assumed he was an ex-pat. I only have so much room in the title, and I find a little hyperbole gets people in the door to read what I say. Besides that, I'm really bad at making titles. I don't assume all atheists are of the same mind. What is your opinion of Islam and of Christianity, as far as a threat to lives?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
RuvDraba
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4/14/2016 11:25:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 10:54:14 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/14/2016 8:57:29 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...
This is a new point of view.
Tracey may well have ideological differences with some other atheists, but he seems to be an American atheist arguing with other American atheists.
I don't assume all atheists are of the same mind. What is your opinion of Islam and of Christianity, as far as a threat to lives?
Christianity and Islam have both previously been the state faiths of great empires. Such faiths may not be kind or just, but tend not to slaughter large sections of their empire's labour-force wantonly, or they'd cease being the state faith. So I assess the threat to lives from these religions as being limited, by historical standards.

So let's turn to justice, compassion and pluralism instead...

Both faiths rose to greatness from militant expansionism. Both have been paternalistic, intolerant and riddled with clerical ambition from the outset. Both have been guilty of horrific ethnic cleansings and other injustices to further their political aims.

But... Christianity has something Islam doesn't, and that's nearly five hundred years of anticlericalism, that began with the Protestant Reformation, and continued through the Enlightenment, and into the secular democracies that followed.

To my mind, that achievement remains Christianity's single greatest moral and intellectual strength. I think Christians aren't acknowledged enough for this.

Muslim cultures have attempted to reproduce this at times -- for example, with the efforts of Turkish revolutionary Kamal Attaturk. When they have done so, Muslim societies have not only been civilised in the limited sense of upholding the rule of law, but have also demonstrated continuous improvement in compassion, justice, equality and support for secularism, as we want from civilised societies today. I think Turkey and Indonesia are both examples of Muslim-dominant societies that have made great strides in these areas.

One could quite correctly respond that secularism is fragile in the presence of a single, dominant religion like Islam. I would acknowledge that's true in both Turkey and Indonesia, but I also find it true in the US, where militant clericalism has been high since the 1890s.

In the end, I view all militant clericalism as a threat to a compassionate and just civilisation, and Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have militancy written into their canonical doctrines, into many of their subsequent theologies, and continue to sustain militant clericalism politically. Pragmatically, the key issue isn't the legitimacy of their ideals, but always how well their clerics will cooperate with a just, compassionate, pluralistic, secular society, and for how long.
Skynet
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4/19/2016 2:24:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:58:55 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/14/2016 3:23:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/12/2016 7:33:34 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/5/2016 3:14:45 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/3/2016 8:18:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/3/2016 6:40:54 AM, Skynet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...


Ultimately, Atheism and Islam are not compatible, so whoever wakes up first and discovers they are in bed with their enemy first will kill the other. In the USSR, the Communists were awake first. Right now in the West, it looks like Islam got up reaal early.

Oh, I see - I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but was it that McCarthy era accusations of communist sympathies labelled atheists as co-conspirators - because the USSR was officially atheist?

Almost. Christianity plays such a large part in our cultural traditions that to be atheist in the first half of the 20th Cent. was considered a thing mostly for outsiders. My impression of early Soviet-US relations was that they were quite amicable toward one another. We were allies in WWI and WWII. It all changed when Stalin decided that he wanted to takeover and oppress rather than rebuild his war spoil, and labeled us as enemies with no provocation. There actually were attempts to infiltrate and subvert US culture from the USSR, so McCarthy was not totally devoid of reason. It did not help capitalist atheists or non-radical Communists that pretty much anyone that spoke up for Communism publicly seemed to be rabidly anti-theist, and so anti-American on 2 levels.

We didn't do that here. We tamed our communists - bored them to death by getting them involved in politics! It took the Labour Party a century to get into government, by which time they were virtually indistinguishable from the Conservatives. There is perhaps an expectation to a pretence of Christianity among upper-class Conservatives - if they might conceivably bump into Her Majesty the Queen at a garden party, but overwhelmingly atheism here is not a matter of political allegiance - but of personal conscience,

That's exactly how we fundamentalist Christians view our religion. Homogenizing it with the culture or government so that to be X nationality or Y culture means you are a Christian with no individual action always leads to apostasy. It's what led to the Salem Witch hunt, Mormonism, the conflict in Northern Ireland, and the stagnation of European state run churches.

which is why - I was working toward an argument that the atheist viewpoint - that religion is bad in itself should be emphasized.

I entirely accept that the vast majority of muslims are ...let's say, sufficiently self-regarding they're not going to blow themselves up for Allah, but nonetheless, Islamic religion is the seedbed of this insanity - and that can only be countered from the atheist perspective, by pointing out religion is profoundly unreasonable. This argument may fall somewhat flat for you, if atheists are lumped in with the communists - and therefore viewed as enemies of the state, but condemning all religion equally, as the antithesis to the clear sighted scientific reason we will need going forward in face of some quite serious challenges - I would argue, is the way to tackle Islam.

Atheism is much more common than it used to be, and not viewed with nearly as bad a stigma as it was back in the 60's. So being an atheist certainly does not make you appear to be an enemy of the state like it used to. I disagree with your solution for other reasons. Having studied the Bible fairly extensively for a layman, I can find no justification for armed rebellion without very extreme circumstances. The Jews in Jesus' time had been under foreign rule since about 800 BC, and were looking for any chance to gain independence again. The Messiah was and is assumed by Jews to be a military leader. Jesus was encouraged multiple times to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans. But he even refused to speak out against Roman taxation or to allow his disciples to physically defend him when he was going to be executed. The following ministry of Paul and the others always commanded obedience to the ones God put in charge:

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God"s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God"s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God"s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13)

There are plenty of Christians who don't follow this. But if they follow the Christian "seed-bed," as you phrased it, there is no room for terrorism.
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