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To my Christian brothers and sisters...

persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)
Begin
Posts: 29
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4/7/2016 3:15:13 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Means, absolutely nota! No connection at all! Zippo! And so on and so forth.
bamiller43
Posts: 200
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4/7/2016 3:44:23 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

http://creately.com...

When you look at the big picture, they really aren't. There are a couple of base similarities, but that can't overwhelm the glaring differences in the diagram.
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/7/2016 4:50:19 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 3:15:13 AM, Begin wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Means, absolutely nota! No connection at all! Zippo! And so on and so forth.

So to conclude, you see nothing important about 3 wise men coming from the East to specifically to bow before Christ as their King, prior to Christ's birth, and even confessed that to King Herod who reacted angrily to the 3 wise men's answer on "who they are looking for" in Matthew 2:16. This, according to you, wasn't significant, correct?
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/7/2016 4:59:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 3:44:23 AM, bamiller43 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

http://creately.com...

When you look at the big picture, they really aren't. There are a couple of base similarities, but that can't overwhelm the glaring differences in the diagram.

The website you provided merely provides the similarities and differences between the religions, which can be classified as a beautiful diversity which is present in ice cream flavors, all the way to humanity itself. So given that the differences/diversity is a beautiful, that has nothing to do with the initial question I asked, which was, What does Zoroastrianism mean to you and do you see a connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

Hint: How did 3 men know when and where to come and how did they know, prior to Christ's birth, that a Jewish King was about to be born, which wasn't Herod?
Matthew 2:16 explains Herod's reaction to the 3 wise men's search

...clearly there is a massive connection between the 2 Faiths given that Non-Jews and Non-Christians (aka Zoroastrians) were in search for Christ prior to His Birth, but I want to see your perspective on this matter...as a Christian of course :)
bamiller43
Posts: 200
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4/7/2016 5:07:55 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 4:59:26 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 3:44:23 AM, bamiller43 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

http://creately.com...

When you look at the big picture, they really aren't. There are a couple of base similarities, but that can't overwhelm the glaring differences in the diagram.

The website you provided merely provides the similarities and differences between the religions, which can be classified as a beautiful diversity which is present in ice cream flavors, all the way to humanity itself. So given that the differences/diversity is a beautiful, that has nothing to do with the initial question I asked, which was, What does Zoroastrianism mean to you and do you see a connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

Hint: How did 3 men know when and where to come and how did they know, prior to Christ's birth, that a Jewish King was about to be born, which wasn't Herod?
Matthew 2:16 explains Herod's reaction to the 3 wise men's search

...clearly there is a massive connection between the 2 Faiths given that Non-Jews and Non-Christians (aka Zoroastrians) were in search for Christ prior to His Birth, but I want to see your perspective on this matter...as a Christian of course :)

To actually answer your question, I see that there are similarities between the two, but not enough for there to really be a connection. Zoroastrianism puts Ahura Mazda (God) and Angra Mainyu (Satan) as metaphysical equals. They are both pretty much supreme in their respective domains, but Ahura Mazda eventually will wipe out Angra Mainyu, and with him evil and chaos. This is vastly different from Christianity, where God CREATED Satan as a subordinate, who eventually defied him, and will one day be punished for it. They are in no terms equal in power.

Also, where did you gather that Zoroastrians were searching for Christ before his birth?
Pandit
Posts: 354
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4/7/2016 2:35:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Zoroastrianism before turning Monotheistic was pretty similar to Vedic Culture . ( I am not sure . Zend Avesta and Vedas has links )
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/7/2016 4:52:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Hint: How did 3 men know when and where to come and how did they know, prior to Christ's birth, that a Jewish King was about to be born, which wasn't Herod?
Matthew 2:16 explains Herod's reaction to the 3 wise men's search

...clearly there is a massive connection between the 2 Faiths given that Non-Jews and Non-Christians (aka Zoroastrians) were in search for Christ prior to His Birth, but I want to see your perspective on this matter...as a Christian of course :)

To actually answer your question, I see that there are similarities between the two, but not enough for there to really be a connection. Zoroastrianism puts Ahura Mazda (God) and Angra Mainyu (Satan) as metaphysical equals. They are both pretty much supreme in their respective domains, but Ahura Mazda eventually will wipe out Angra Mainyu, and with him evil and chaos. This is vastly different from Christianity, where God CREATED Satan as a subordinate, who eventually defied him, and will one day be punished for it. They are in no terms equal in power.

Also, where did you gather that Zoroastrians were searching for Christ before his birth?

Since there are similarities between the two, that means there actually is a connection between them. There is no such thing as a universal, qualifying number of similarities that act as a prerequisite to the establishment of a connection. If, according to you there is such a thing, then you would have to show me the evidence behind that. Regardless, one similarity is the minimum requirement for a connection. Terminology may certainly differ but the nature of the subjects addressed are in spirit, the same.

I say this with utmost respect, that you worked your way around the hint I raised, concerning the knowledge of the Birth of a King within a different Scripture, that wasn't Herod, but the Lord Jesus Christ. This was the main reason why the Bible even contains the subject of the 3 wise men. I find it hard to believe that as a Christian, the Birth of the Messiah found in Non-Judeo-Christian Scripture and Pre-Christian Scripture, has no significance for you whatsoever...very weird :/
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/7/2016 5:20:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 2:35:29 PM, Pandit wrote:
Zoroastrianism before turning Monotheistic was pretty similar to Vedic Culture . ( I am not sure . Zend Avesta and Vedas has links )

Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the start as was the period where the Vedas were composed. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are among the Monotheistic religions but neither of them had any turning points were their definitions were changed from Polytheistic to Monotheistic. They held and still hold the Truth of about the One Almighty, Supreme God.
Pandit
Posts: 354
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4/7/2016 7:15:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 5:20:21 PM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 2:35:29 PM, Pandit wrote:
Zoroastrianism before turning Monotheistic was pretty similar to Vedic Culture . ( I am not sure . Zend Avesta and Vedas has links )

Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the start as was the period where the Vedas were composed. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are among the Monotheistic religions but neither of them had any turning points were their definitions were changed from Polytheistic to Monotheistic. They held and still hold the Truth of about the One Almighty, Supreme God.

May be but I am not sure .
Many Hindu Faiths are Monotheistic but Hinduism as a Whole is hard to define . From outside it may appear Polytheistic but its actually Henotheistic or Pantheistic or in modern terms Pluralistic Religion .

Indo Aryans worshiped Devas whereas Iranians worshiped Asuras . Indra replaced Mithra Varuna as a Main deity in Vedic culture by the time Indo Aryans and Iranian Aryans got separated . During this period Zoroaster came with his teachings and raised Ahura Mazda to the level of Supreme .

Is there any link between Ahura Mazda and Mithra Varuna ?
My views are limited to what I have read on Internet >_<
12_13
Posts: 1,364
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4/7/2016 8:27:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

Actually it is interesting matter. It may be that God caused that when this happened:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Yahweh stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth has Yahweh, the God of heaven, given me; and he has charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, Yahweh his God be with him, and let him go up.
2 Chr. 36:22-23

Reason for similarities could be that God had an effect during that time to Persian leader. Also Jews had influence during that time in Persia so perhaps that is the reason, if there is some kind of connection.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/7/2016 8:32:16 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Hi, PI... I'm not Christian, but find Zoroastrianism interesting, and agree that it has had a profound influence first on Judaism, then Christianity, and to an extent, on Islam.

However, in my experience, Christians know almost nothing about Zoroastrianism, Jews know only some ancient references, while Muslims know Zoroastrians as people who resisted their conquest of Persia.

Outside Zoroastrians themselves, it's only scholars of the Ancient Near East -- and some Hindus -- who know much, and I don't think our HIndu members here are numbered among them.

So to the extent that you may seek encouragement to talk more about the links between Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic faiths, please find that warm encouragement here, from an er... atheist. :)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/7/2016 8:43:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Actually the connections only really exist between Zoroastrianism and Apostate Christianity.

True Christianity is unique, as well as rare. There is only one group practising it as Christ and the Apostles did. Jehovah's Witnesses.
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/8/2016 6:49:31 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 7:15:31 PM, Pandit wrote:
At 4/7/2016 5:20:21 PM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 2:35:29 PM, Pandit wrote:
Zoroastrianism before turning Monotheistic was pretty similar to Vedic Culture . ( I am not sure . Zend Avesta and Vedas has links )

Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the start as was the period where the Vedas were composed. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are among the Monotheistic religions but neither of them had any turning points were their definitions were changed from Polytheistic to Monotheistic. They held and still hold the Truth of about the One Almighty, Supreme God.

May be but I am not sure .
Many Hindu Faiths are Monotheistic but Hinduism as a Whole is hard to define . From outside it may appear Polytheistic but its actually Henotheistic or Pantheistic or in modern terms Pluralistic Religion .

Indo Aryans worshiped Devas whereas Iranians worshiped Asuras . Indra replaced Mithra Varuna as a Main deity in Vedic culture by the time Indo Aryans and Iranian Aryans got separated . During this period Zoroaster came with his teachings and raised Ahura Mazda to the level of Supreme .

Is there any link between Ahura Mazda and Mithra Varuna ?
My views are limited to what I have read on Internet >_<

From my studies, Mitra and Varuna are 2 separate deities within the Vedas, who's characteristics are so similar that they are often viewed as one. Their status as guardians of this world and pillars between the heaven and the earth, make them god-like. However, being god-like does not imply that they are actually God Himself, considering the fact that the Vedic Sanskrit word for "God" is Brahman, much like how God in French is "Dieu" or in Spanish it's "Dios". But keep in mind that Brahman is a concept of God that explains the Ultimate Reality of a Supreme Higher Power, and that is no different than Ahura Mazda, which in the Avestan language, is equivalent to the Brahman of the Vedic Sanskrit language.

So in conclusion, the link between Mitra/Varuna and Ahura Mazda is exactly like the link between Mitra/Varuna and Brahman, in the sense that 2 god-like deities are compared to God. In other words, yes there is a link.

It is also interesting to note that Hinduism, according to the Bhagavad Gita, Upanishad and other Sacred Hindu Scriptures, is a Monotheistic Religion and not Henotheistic or Pantheistic.
In the Bhagavad Gita 7:20, it states, "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.". This verse states that, people who are materialistic, end up worshipping demigods i.e. "gods" besides the One True God. So this verse alone, rules out any Polytheistic labels on Hinduism.
In the Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9, it explains the concept of God in a way that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'is, Buddhists and Zoroastrians, will have to ultimately agree. It states, "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord". The is no dispute that Hinduism believes in One God, therefore making Hinduism nothing but Monotheistic.

Hope this helps, buddy :)
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/8/2016 7:10:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 8:43:12 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Actually the connections only really exist between Zoroastrianism and Apostate Christianity.

True Christianity is unique, as well as rare. There is only one group practising it as Christ and the Apostles did. Jehovah's Witnesses.

Since you're not comfortable with the supposed "Apostate" Christianity, I'll focus on the Bible of the "True" Christianity. To answer your point, the verses pertaining to the connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity, all convey the same point, that there was and still is, a connection between these 2 Faiths. I would be very interested to know if you hold any significance to the verse Matthew 2:16 of the "True" Christian Bible, where Herod reacted to the 3 Wise Men's search of a Jewish King that was not himself.
Also, I would have to ask you to show me the scriptural and logical evidence in relation to the subject, that reinforces your belief that there is a distinction between the Apostate and True Christianity, given that Zoroastrianism has a connection with Christianity as a whole, Apostate or otherwise.

I would also be interested in knowing if you've ever thought of how a group of 3 wise men conducted their search for the Messiah, which began prior to His Birth?

Which source would Non-Jew Persian wise men use to guide them in their search for the Messiah, foretold by the Jewish Scriptures and surprisingly, the Scriptures that were not the Tanakh? Hint:....the A _ _ _ _ _

Why would God choose a Zoroastrian King to free the Jews and not a Jew from within the Jewish population?
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/8/2016 7:25:13 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 8:32:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Hi, PI... I'm not Christian, but find Zoroastrianism interesting, and agree that it has had a profound influence first on Judaism, then Christianity, and to an extent, on Islam.

However, in my experience, Christians know almost nothing about Zoroastrianism, Jews know only some ancient references, while Muslims know Zoroastrians as people who resisted their conquest of Persia.

Outside Zoroastrians themselves, it's only scholars of the Ancient Near East -- and some Hindus -- who know much, and I don't think our HIndu members here are numbered among them.

So to the extent that you may seek encouragement to talk more about the links between Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic faiths, please find that warm encouragement here, from an er... atheist. :)

In my mind, the title of an Atheist, does not deter you from providing answers and perspectives that potentially clarify a certain misconception about an Abrahamic Faith or even a misunderstanding on the subject of God as a whole. I have a deep respect for the objective approach that most Atheists have that touch on the subject of faith related questions.
To add to your point, yes you are right to say that the Abrahamic Faiths have more in common than its adherents would like to think, and the current exclusivity portrayed by the adherents of the main faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, impede the growth of knowledge that they are meant to have on a subject such as this.
Now a days, the clerics and leading "shepards" of the many branches within the Abrahamic Faiths have unfortunately placed a filter in the minds of the adherents, that generates beliefs compatible with that of its designer, which is the cleric himself.
As a Baha'i and a student of comparative religions, I have a duty to essentially defend Christianity from Christians, Islam from Muslims, and Judaism from the Jews. So I welcome any thoughts you may have on this subject or others because an unbiased point of view that you clearly hold, will most likely clarify things pretty quickly

...I hope I made sense, my friend :)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/8/2016 12:19:35 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 7:10:04 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 8:43:12 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Actually the connections only really exist between Zoroastrianism and Apostate Christianity.

True Christianity is unique, as well as rare. There is only one group practising it as Christ and the Apostles did. Jehovah's Witnesses.

Since you're not comfortable with the supposed "Apostate" Christianity, I'll focus on the Bible of the "True" Christianity. To answer your point, the verses pertaining to the connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity, all convey the same point, that there was and still is, a connection between these 2 Faiths. I would be very interested to know if you hold any significance to the verse Matthew 2:16 of the "True" Christian Bible, where Herod reacted to the 3 Wise Men's search of a Jewish King that was not himself.

I am not comfortable with untruth in any form.

Actually that verse need to be considered in the light of the whole story of the events.

Firstly the Wise Men were apparently Astrologers, ones how look to the future in the stars.

Isaiah 8:19
19 And if they say to you: "Inquire of the spirit mediums or of the fortune-tellers who chirp and mutter," is it not of their God that a people should inquire? Should they inquire of the dead in behalf of the living?

Jehovah is absolutely against any form of enquiry about the future other than to him. That is because all other forms of fortune telling are Satan is Satanic in origin.

That in itself marks them out as men not approved of by Jehovah.

Then ask yourself where the star first guided them. Was to straight to Bethlehem where the child would be found.

No. It guided them to King Herod in Jerusalem, a Jealous ruler who would soon want to destroy any perceived rival to his families right to rule. That was done to alert Herod to Jesus existence, knowing he would wish to destroy the child.

Would Jehovah guide people of whom he did not approve, to the one person in the region who would want his son dead and had the power to do it?

No he would not. That would have completely ruined his entire plan so far about 4,000 years in the developing.

The star then did an almost right angle turn and came to rest above the house, house notice, not stable, where the child now lived.

How could a star do a sharp turn?

No.

Could it come to rest in such a way that they could clearly see which house it was indicating?

Again No.

However this led Herod to try to destroy the child by destroying all children 2 years and under.

Why two years and under? Why not a new born?

The obvious answer to that is that Herod had been able to ascertain the approximate time of birth of Jesus, and it had worked out to be about a year before that point so to make sure he had children 1 year either side of that killed.

That knocks a big hole in the accuracy of any nativity play I've ever seen.

I am sorry, but the only possible course of that "star", all things taken into consideration can only have been the one being who wanted Jehovah's plan to fail, his enemy, Satan. No doubt it was either Satan himself or possibly one of his demons.

Also, I would have to ask you to show me the scriptural and logical evidence in relation to the subject, that reinforces your belief that there is a distinction between the Apostate and True Christianity, given that Zoroastrianism has a connection with Christianity as a whole, Apostate or otherwise.

The Apostasy was foretold by Christ and by the Apostles. The Apostles even tied it to when the last Apostle died.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

2 Peter 2:1
2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

Acts 20:29, 30 New World Translation
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

That did indeed happen at the end of the 1st century, and Jesus words, spoken in anguish were soon to become true.

Luke 18:8
8 I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?"

He wasn't due to " arrive" for about 1850 years, but when he looked, not long before that he did indeed find the faith completely missing from the earth.

This presented Jehovah with a problem.

He needed to have people warned of what was to come, and the "Good News of the Kingdom" preached throughout the earth so that all could make up their minds in knowledge before the end came. Matthew 24:14.

In fact the situation almost completely echoed the 1st century, when there were no true worshippers, but there were some who wanted to be if only someone would show them how.

So, just as he did then, Jehovah drew such ones to his son's side (John 4:23-24; John 6:44) so that he could teach them, though this time from heaven.

So steeped were these ones in the false beliefs, and worse false thinking, that it took more than one generation to teach them, but eventually they learned and became known as Jehovah's Witness, because that is what they are, and what they do, in imitation of Christ, the foremost Witness.


I would also be interested in knowing if you've ever thought of how a group of 3 wise men conducted their search for the Messiah, which began prior to His Birth?

That is very easy, since they were already involved with something banned by Jehovah, it was no problem for Satan or one of his demons to plant ideas in their minds (1 John 4:1). He couldn't give them details, since he quite likely didn't know them himself, but he could alert them to something important going to happen, and roughly what that would be.

It was very easy for him to use their belief in "stars" to lead them to where events would be set in motion.

That is why Joseph and Mary were alerted to what was coming and fled to Egypt to escape it.


Which source would Non-Jew Persian wise men use to guide them in their search for the Messiah, foretold by the Jewish Scriptures and surprisingly, the Scriptures that were not the Tanakh? Hint:....the A _ _ _ _ _

They may well not have used either, and the vagueness of their quest could suggest that they did not.

However Herod's Jewish adviser would have used prophecy, probably particularly Daniel 9, to alert them to the approximate year of Jesus birth, since Daniel reveals when his ministry would start and the advisers would then only need to count back by 30 years, 30 being the age at which, according to Jewish Law a man is old enough to take on such a responsibility.

Again hence the year either side.


Why would God choose a Zoroastrian King to free the Jews and not a Jew from within the Jewish population?

He didn't.

He did indeed choose a Jew, a member of the tribe of Judah, but not to free the Jews in the sense they believed, and only those who chose to follow him also.

Jesus did indeed set them free, but from religious enslavement not from political enslavement.

If you read Paul's letter to the Hebrews you may be able to see what I mean.

if not, then another time
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/8/2016 2:24:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The problem with the Bible is the portrayal of God and the people of Israel the Jews.
The 3 wise men from the east knew about the birth of a messiah even before the Jews did. They travelled to Jerusalem carrying gifts for the expected Jesus.

What that shows is the Jews did not even know their own prophesies and were not aware of the significant event that was about to take place in their own backward.
It akso shows how incompetent their God was for failing to inform or alert them.

It Jesus was sent to be the saviour of the world, God chose the wrong place and people to send him to. They rejected and crucified him. God could have picked better places where the people would have gladly receive Jesus. But God chose to play dice with the saviour of the world by sending him to the Jews, the least capable of all people. And God did it despite a long history of failures with his chosen people, the Jews. Stupid us what stupid does.

If it were not for the 3 wise men.(Magis) the Zoroastrians the world would have been ignorant of Jesus and the confusion he caused. And like Persia the world would have embraced Islam instead. Thereby benefitting from a wiser God and a better Prophet in Mohammad (pbuh).
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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4/8/2016 3:38:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 2:24:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The problem with the Bible is the portrayal of God and the people of Israel the Jews.
The 3 wise men from the east knew about the birth of a messiah even before the Jews did. They travelled to Jerusalem carrying gifts for the expected Jesus.

What that shows is the Jews did not even know their own prophesies and were not aware of the significant event that was about to take place in their own backward.
It akso shows how incompetent their God was for failing to inform or alert them.

Why did anyone need to alert them? the scriptures were right in front of their noses? besides that it was to be fulfilled that the Messiah was to be rejected and humiliated. The sacrifice was in complete form, an offering that was to deprive the lamb of all aspects of His being...physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, publicly...it was an offering that was uncompromised in any form, as it was.
Apart from that you contradict yourself, you just said "What that shows is the Jews did not even know their own prophesies and were not aware of the significant event that was about to take place in their own backward.".... and then blamed it on God that they weren't informed.... lol? then you conveniently forget that the Messiah was to be rejected, how can you stand all these little falsities you let float around in that head?

It Jesus was sent to be the saviour of the world, God chose the wrong place and people to send him to. They rejected and crucified him. God could have picked better places where the people would have gladly receive Jesus. But God chose to play dice with the saviour of the world by sending him to the Jews, the least capable of all people. And God did it despite a long history of failures with his chosen people, the Jews. Stupid us what stupid does.

Except for they were't "gladly to receive" Jesus....that wasn't what was prophesied. He was to be rejected and deprived of all His being, not just in one aspect.

It was a great place for the sacrifice, what is the "right" place....?? and don't give me your bull about having to perform "sacrifices" in a temple, the prophesies do not concern the slaughter of the Messiah within any temple, that's just another one of your made up straw men.
As far as being rejected and crucified, those are fulfilled prophesies, He was most certainly to be rejected and scourged.... have you even read the scriptures?


If it were not for the 3 wise men.(Magis) the Zoroastrians the world would have been ignorant of Jesus and the confusion he caused. And like Persia the world would have embraced Islam instead. Thereby benefitting from a wiser God and a better Prophet in Mohammad (pbuh).

Thanks for another one of your opinions.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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4/8/2016 4:10:30 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 3:38:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/8/2016 2:24:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The problem with the Bible is the portrayal of God and the people of Israel the Jews.
The 3 wise men from the east knew about the birth of a messiah even before the Jews did. They travelled to Jerusalem carrying gifts for the expected Jesus.

What that shows is the Jews did not even know their own prophesies and were not aware of the significant event that was about to take place in their own backward.
It akso shows how incompetent their God was for failing to inform or alert them.

Why did anyone need to alert them? the scriptures were right in front of their noses? besides that it was to be fulfilled that the Messiah was to be rejected and humiliated. The sacrifice was in complete form, an offering that was to deprive the lamb of all aspects of His being...physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, publicly...it was an offering that was uncompromised in any form, as it was.
Apart from that you contradict yourself, you just said "What that shows is the Jews did not even know their own prophesies and were not aware of the significant event that was about to take place in their own backward.".... and then blamed it on God that they weren't informed.... lol? then you conveniently forget that the Messiah was to be rejected, how can you stand all these little falsities you let float around in that head?

Because the Jews were ignorant of their prophesies they rejected the messiah God sent to save them and crucified Jesus. If that was a fulfillment of their prophesies God would have rewarded them. Instead He allowed the Romans to destroy their temple, city and slaughter them.
Why would God punish the Jews if they helped Jesus fulfil the prophesies? The Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophesies. His death achieved nothing for them and none of the Davidic kingdom promised was established by Jesus.
2000 years later tbe Jews still believe Jesus was a blasphemous liar and lunatic and his crucifixion was fully justified.

It Jesus was sent to be the saviour of the world, God chose the wrong place and people to send him to. They rejected and crucified him. God could have picked better places where the people would have gladly receive Jesus. But God chose to play dice with the saviour of the world by sending him to the Jews, the least capable of all people. And God did it despite a long history of failures with his chosen people, the Jews. Stupid us what stupid does.

Except for they were't "gladly to receive" Jesus....that wasn't what was prophesied. He was to be rejected and deprived of all His being, not just in one aspect.

God was helpless even against his own poorly scripted ending. The prophesies guaranteed Jesus would be rejected and killed. It was preordained. God got what he wanted....failure. Jesus was crucified not sacrificed. Another failure.
Christ did not save the Jews, he empowered the Gentiles. Another failure.

It was a great place for the sacrifice, what is the "right" place....?? and don't give me your bull about having to perform "sacrifices" in a temple, the prophesies do not concern the slaughter of the Messiah within any temple, that's just another one of your made up straw men.
As far as being rejected and crucified, those are fulfilled prophesies, He was most certainly to be rejected and scourged.... have you even read the scriptures?

The Jews were only doing what was preordained. It was to help Jesus speed up his seconding coming. God should have spent more time thinking out his flawed script. He got it right with Islam and the prophet Mohammad (pbuh)

If it were not for the 3 wise men.(Magis) the Zoroastrians the world would have been ignorant of Jesus and the confusion he caused. And like Persia the world would have embraced Islam instead. Thereby benefitting from a wiser God and a better Prophet in Mohammad (pbuh).

Thanks for another one of your opinions.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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4/8/2016 4:26:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

I can imagine a scenario where God has tried to reach us for millions of years, and little by little, we've understood more and more.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Pandit
Posts: 354
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4/8/2016 6:52:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 6:49:31 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 7:15:31 PM, Pandit wrote:
At 4/7/2016 5:20:21 PM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 2:35:29 PM, Pandit wrote:
Zoroastrianism before turning Monotheistic was pretty similar to Vedic Culture . ( I am not sure . Zend Avesta and Vedas has links )

Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the start as was the period where the Vedas were composed. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are among the Monotheistic religions but neither of them had any turning points were their definitions were changed from Polytheistic to Monotheistic. They held and still hold the Truth of about the One Almighty, Supreme God.

May be but I am not sure .
Many Hindu Faiths are Monotheistic but Hinduism as a Whole is hard to define . From outside it may appear Polytheistic but its actually Henotheistic or Pantheistic or in modern terms Pluralistic Religion .

Indo Aryans worshiped Devas whereas Iranians worshiped Asuras . Indra replaced Mithra Varuna as a Main deity in Vedic culture by the time Indo Aryans and Iranian Aryans got separated . During this period Zoroaster came with his teachings and raised Ahura Mazda to the level of Supreme .

Is there any link between Ahura Mazda and Mithra Varuna ?
My views are limited to what I have read on Internet >_<

From my studies, Mitra and Varuna are 2 separate deities within the Vedas, who's characteristics are so similar that they are often viewed as one. Their status as guardians of this world and pillars between the heaven and the earth, make them god-like. However, being god-like does not imply that they are actually God Himself, considering the fact that the Vedic Sanskrit word for "God" is Brahman, much like how God in French is "Dieu" or in Spanish it's "Dios". But keep in mind that Brahman is a concept of God that explains the Ultimate Reality of a Supreme Higher Power, and that is no different than Ahura Mazda, which in the Avestan language, is equivalent to the Brahman of the Vedic Sanskrit language.

So in conclusion, the link between Mitra/Varuna and Ahura Mazda is exactly like the link between Mitra/Varuna and Brahman, in the sense that 2 god-like deities are compared to God. In other words, yes there is a link.

It is also interesting to note that Hinduism, according to the Bhagavad Gita, Upanishad and other Sacred Hindu Scriptures, is a Monotheistic Religion and not Henotheistic or Pantheistic.
In the Bhagavad Gita 7:20, it states, "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.". This verse states that, people who are materialistic, end up worshipping demigods i.e. "gods" besides the One True God. So this verse alone, rules out any Polytheistic labels on Hinduism.
In the Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9, it explains the concept of God in a way that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'is, Buddhists and Zoroastrians, will have to ultimately agree. It states, "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord". The is no dispute that Hinduism believes in One God, therefore making Hinduism nothing but Monotheistic.

Hope this helps, buddy :)

Oh ! Thanks .

Ya , Going by Gita and Upanishads , God is One as you mentioned but different Hindu schools ( Philosophy ) have different interpretation . Then we have the Concept of Nirguna ( Featureless and Formless God ) and Saguna ( God with features and in Form ) Brahman and Para Brahman and Each Sect has its own deity as Para Brahman . Then GOD as Shakti or Pure Energy and Source of all Gods and Demi-Gods .
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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4/8/2016 9:33:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 4:59:26 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 3:44:23 AM, bamiller43 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

http://creately.com...

When you look at the big picture, they really aren't. There are a couple of base similarities, but that can't overwhelm the glaring differences in the diagram.

The website you provided merely provides the similarities and differences between the religions, which can be classified as a beautiful diversity which is present in ice cream flavors, all the way to humanity itself. So given that the differences/diversity is a beautiful, that has nothing to do with the initial question I asked, which was, What does Zoroastrianism mean to you and do you see a connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

Hint: How did 3 men know when and where to come and how did they know, prior to Christ's birth, that a Jewish King was about to be born, which wasn't Herod?
Matthew 2:16 explains Herod's reaction to the 3 wise men's search

...clearly there is a massive connection between the 2 Faiths given that Non-Jews and Non-Christians (aka Zoroastrians) were in search for Christ prior to His Birth, but I want to see your perspective on this matter...as a Christian of course :)

I"m not sure what you are fishing for here, but if you are looking for influences from the Israelis and their beliefs in Persia that"s not hard to see considering Daniel was a major player in Nebuchadnezzar"s court not to mention he was in direct service to a few after Nebuchadnezzar. Plus, there is a Talmud of significance to the Jews that was written during the time the Israelites were captives, hence the writings may have had some effect there.

There are some who believe that Daniel left behind a significant school and or teachings, and the same was responsible for the 3 wise men showing up at the birth of Jesus. Also when Cyrus was in power he was friendly to the Jewish cause, and there is also the possibility that some integrated into the society their and mixed their beliefs with those of the area at that time.

So some of the similarities you are looking at maybe from that, but it"s not the same, many authorities in today"s world try to tell us that we (different religions) worship the same God, and that is not so. A mix bag of religions corrupts the religion and if a particular religion is pointing to the true God, it would be detrimental to that cause and the true value of religion.
persianimmortal
Posts: 115
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4/9/2016 6:15:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 4:26:03 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

I can imagine a scenario where God has tried to reach us for millions of years, and little by little, we've understood more and more.

That, my friend is a very very brief but very accurate definition of Progressive Revelation, and on a scholarly level, I appreciate how you started this...but go on, because it's definitely not finished :)))
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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4/9/2016 6:56:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

There are many similarities between islam and padaphilia and homosexuality. Correct?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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4/9/2016 7:04:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

Im curious then, please list some of the many :P
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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4/9/2016 7:15:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 6:56:15 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

There are many similarities between islam and padaphilia and homosexuality. Correct?

Yes, just like similarities between bowling, flying a kite and right wing politics.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/9/2016 7:32:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 7:25:13 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/7/2016 8:32:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?
Hi, PI... I'm not Christian, but find Zoroastrianism interesting, and agree that it has had a profound influence first on Judaism, then Christianity, and to an extent, on Islam.
In my mind, the title of an Atheist, does not deter you from providing answers and perspectives that potentially clarify a certain misconception about an Abrahamic Faith or even a misunderstanding on the subject of God as a whole. I have a deep respect for the objective approach that most Atheists have that touch on the subject of faith related questions.
In fairness, objectivity on a particular subject doesn't require atheism, or vice-versa. And to the extent that insight into any religious beliefs may be produced by studying the humanity and the world, I would hope that the wise of all faiths would not ignore the wisdom arising from such study, no matter who may offer it.

To add to your point, yes you are right to say that the Abrahamic Faiths have more in common than its adherents would like to think, and the current exclusivity portrayed by the adherents of the main faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, impede the growth of knowledge that they are meant to have on a subject such as this.
I can't say what the religious are meant to have, since it seems to me that religion itself is pushed and pulled by powerful social and cultural forces, often changing it markedly from the way it began. However, I agree that a desire to validate one's own traditions can lead to ignorant dismissal of other traditions, and that this is regrettable.

Nowadays, the clerics and leading "shepards" of the many branches within the Abrahamic Faiths have unfortunately placed a filter in the minds of the adherents,
That may arise from a professional conflict of interest between helping people become better people, and staying in a position of authority.

As a Baha'i and a student of comparative religions, I have a duty to essentially defend Christianity from Christians, Islam from Muslims, and Judaism from the Jews.
Like you, PI, I enjoy comparative religion, but I view it the other way around. Whether right or wrong in their beliefs, people are intrinsically worthy of compassion, respect and dignity, and I see it as more important to defend people from the worst excesses of the dogmas into which they have been born, than to defend the faiths from people.

So I welcome any thoughts you may have on this subject or others because an unbiased point of view that you clearly hold, will most likely clarify things pretty quickly
I can't claim to an unbiased view because I'm not sure how I'd falsify it if it weren't, but I hope my views are informed by compassion, evidence and respect for human dignity.

...I hope I made sense, my friend :)
You absolutely have, PI.

You are not the first Baha'i I have met. I think there are many reasons to respect that faith -- e.g. for its pluralism, tolerance, pacifistic restraint and -- for me, especially -- for its tendency to stay out of matters political. :)

I look forward to seeing more posts from you in future.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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4/9/2016 10:12:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 6:15:19 PM, persianimmortal wrote:
At 4/8/2016 4:26:03 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 1:55:12 AM, persianimmortal wrote:
...what does Zoroastrianism mean to you? And if anything, do you see a connection (if not more) between Zoroastrianism and Christianity?

hint hint...there are many... ;)

I can imagine a scenario where God has tried to reach us for millions of years, and little by little, we've understood more and more.

That, my friend is a very very brief but very accurate definition of Progressive Revelation, and on a scholarly level, I appreciate how you started this...but go on, because it's definitely not finished :)))

What do you imagine is missing?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax