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Christians out-rate atheists in prison

Chloe8
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4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
oneteacher
Posts: 100
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4/11/2016 9:35:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion. : :

'The heathens who call themselves atheists and Christians or other religious names have no idea how they were created.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/11/2016 9:43:01 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God.
That and the sciences of psychology, sociology and anthropology, Chloe. :) We'd have to either be born under a rock, or kept their by our parents to still believe that old chestnut.

As you may realise though, these stats don't necessarily show that disbelief in religion leads to better morality. There are correlations between socio-economic backgrounds and both nontheism and low criminal conviction rates that might explain it better.

On the other hand, there are other stats that show one can be more moral with less religion. Reported in the Guardian Australia [http://www.theguardian.com...], a worldwide study on the negative association between reliogsity and altruism in children [http://www.cell.com...] found that Family religious identification decreases children"s altruistic behaviors, that children from religious households are harsher and more punitive, but that religious parents saw their children as being more empathic and more sensitive to injustice nevertheless.

(Or as we might infer, sanctimonious parents lead to selfish little bullies who are nevertheless praised as being little saints. :p)

And whether for socio-economic reasons or other, there are studies showing that atheists make good neighbours: more tolerant, thoughtful, altruistic, better behaved, and knowing more about religions in general than most. :)
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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4/11/2016 10:01:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

yea well that could be because when out in the free world who needs a god, right? one is his own master.

but when one's life is in imminent danger 24/7 by anyone you come into contact with and anywhere you are, there just might be a reconsideration to whether one should seek out God or not. how do experienced combat solders put it, there are no atheists in a foxhole. so it seems that Jesus is the one who is most accessible to the prisoner, seeing there is the Mercy and Forgiveness without judgement going on there. most any other belief system or religion would consider their condemnation justified, and wouldn't give the criminal another thought other than throwing away the key. there is a steady ongoing ministry working the prisons in the US. I don't think atheists give two (you know what's) about criminals.

so your views, as usual, is ignorant of real knowledge and understanding of any kind.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/11/2016 10:22:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 10:01:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

yea well that could be because when out in the free world who needs a god, right? one is his own master.

but when one's life is in imminent danger 24/7 by anyone you come into contact with and anywhere you are, there just might be a reconsideration to whether one should seek out God or not. how do experienced combat solders put it, there are no atheists in a foxhole. so it seems that Jesus is the one who is most accessible to the prisoner, seeing there is the Mercy and Forgiveness without judgement going on there. most any other belief system or religion would consider their condemnation justified, and wouldn't give the criminal another thought other than throwing away the key. there is a steady ongoing ministry working the prisons in the US. I don't think atheists give two (you know what's) about criminals.

so your views, as usual, is ignorant of real knowledge and understanding of any kind.

Criminals are generally vulnerable and unstable individuals who lack the capacity for rational analysis. they are obviously easily swayed by people who appear to be both intelligent and kind preaching that something positive may lie ahead.

My point in this thread though is pointing out that being a Christian does not lead to better morality. It also shows that atheists are more likely to be law abiding citizens. If Christianity was true you would think atheists would outnumber Christians in jails.

Many Christians like to claim moral standards are slipping and atheism is to blame. This piece of evidence refutes that false claim. An atheist is less likely to go to jail than a Christian.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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4/11/2016 10:35:15 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 10:22:47 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:01:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

yea well that could be because when out in the free world who needs a god, right? one is his own master.

but when one's life is in imminent danger 24/7 by anyone you come into contact with and anywhere you are, there just might be a reconsideration to whether one should seek out God or not. how do experienced combat solders put it, there are no atheists in a foxhole. so it seems that Jesus is the one who is most accessible to the prisoner, seeing there is the Mercy and Forgiveness without judgement going on there. most any other belief system or religion would consider their condemnation justified, and wouldn't give the criminal another thought other than throwing away the key. there is a steady ongoing ministry working the prisons in the US. I don't think atheists give two (you know what's) about criminals.

so your views, as usual, is ignorant of real knowledge and understanding of any kind.

Criminals are generally vulnerable and unstable individuals who lack the capacity for rational analysis. they are obviously easily swayed by people who appear to be both intelligent and kind preaching that something positive may lie ahead.

My point in this thread though is pointing out that being a Christian does not lead to better morality. It also shows that atheists are more likely to be law abiding citizens. If Christianity was true you would think atheists would outnumber Christians in jails.

Many Christians like to claim moral standards are slipping and atheism is to blame. This piece of evidence refutes that false claim. An atheist is less likely to go to jail than a Christian.

What happened to your 'hindu' posts?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/11/2016 10:37:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Demographics are a tool of oppression.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/11/2016 10:46:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 10:35:15 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:22:47 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:01:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

yea well that could be because when out in the free world who needs a god, right? one is his own master.

but when one's life is in imminent danger 24/7 by anyone you come into contact with and anywhere you are, there just might be a reconsideration to whether one should seek out God or not. how do experienced combat solders put it, there are no atheists in a foxhole. so it seems that Jesus is the one who is most accessible to the prisoner, seeing there is the Mercy and Forgiveness without judgement going on there. most any other belief system or religion would consider their condemnation justified, and wouldn't give the criminal another thought other than throwing away the key. there is a steady ongoing ministry working the prisons in the US. I don't think atheists give two (you know what's) about criminals.

so your views, as usual, is ignorant of real knowledge and understanding of any kind.

Criminals are generally vulnerable and unstable individuals who lack the capacity for rational analysis. they are obviously easily swayed by people who appear to be both intelligent and kind preaching that something positive may lie ahead.

My point in this thread though is pointing out that being a Christian does not lead to better morality. It also shows that atheists are more likely to be law abiding citizens. If Christianity was true you would think atheists would outnumber Christians in jails.

Many Christians like to claim moral standards are slipping and atheism is to blame. This piece of evidence refutes that false claim. An atheist is less likely to go to jail than a Christian.

What happened to your 'hindu' posts?

I made one thread related to Hinduism, it's probably on page 2 or 3 now.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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4/11/2016 11:04:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Yet I bet you would also claim that blacks are obviously unfairly incarcerated since the percentages don't match up with the population. Or is it a fact (as you have presented it here for Christians) that blacks are just more likely to commit crime?

Trying to have it both ways again?
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/11/2016 11:07:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.

Atheists are significantly less likely to go to jail than Christians. If your religion was true you would expect things to be the other way around. Im sure if the statistics were the other way around christians would use them as evidence to support what are actually false claims that atheists are immoral and belief in god is neccessary to be a good person.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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4/11/2016 11:08:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Finally...the study leaves so much out that it's basically useless. Perhaps many became Christian once they got to prison, for instance. Perhaps they lied about their religion - prisoners would never do that I'm sure, since they are obviously well known for being trustworthy. And even IF the study were accurate, it is still a non-sequiter in that it doesn't prove anything about morals.

And once again, how are you even justifying what you consider moral?
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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4/11/2016 11:10:13 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:07:56 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.

Atheists are significantly less likely to go to jail than Christians. If your religion was true you would expect things to be the other way around. Im sure if the statistics were the other way around christians would use them as evidence to support what are actually false claims that atheists are immoral and belief in god is neccessary to be a good person.

Another non-sequitur. Perhaps you need the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org...(logic)
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/11/2016 11:14:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Demographics have very little real correlation to reality, and are a tool of oppression.

It's the truth, for real.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/11/2016 11:21:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:04:49 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Yet I bet you would also claim that blacks are obviously unfairly incarcerated since the percentages don't match up with the population. Or is it a fact (as you have presented it here for Christians) that blacks are just more likely to commit crime?

Trying to have it both ways again?

Blacks are more likely to commit crime. That is a fact. I don't claim blacks are unfairly incarcerated.

What is the point in guessing my opinion on an issue and then criticising it before you even know I hold that view?

I'm from the UK where atheism is not connected to left wing political views like it is in the USA. Religion and politics don't mix here. I voted for the conservative party in the general election last year. It's fair to say though that it's not a conservative party by an American definition. It supports a national health service, gay marriage, tight restrictions on gun ownership, abortion and it's politicians don't brag about their religiosity.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
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4/11/2016 11:22:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.
This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.
Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.

Rookie, Chloe has raised two beliefs she'd like to debunk, namely that:
1) Effective morality can only come from belief in a divine lawgiver; and
2) People who believe in divinely-ordained laws are more law-abiding than people who don't.

May I ask:
I) Which of those beliefs you yourself hold, and why?
II) Which of those beliefs you hold are not debunked by this article, and why?

It's my hope that in presenting your views more honestly and transparently, you'll produce a more constructive and accountable conversation.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/11/2016 11:29:26 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:08:30 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Finally...the study leaves so much out that it's basically useless. Perhaps many became Christian once they got to prison, for instance. Perhaps they lied about their religion - prisoners would never do that I'm sure, since they are obviously well known for being trustworthy. And even IF the study were accurate, it is still a non-sequiter in that it doesn't prove anything about morals.

And once again, how are you even justifying what you consider moral?

Your speculating on why the results of the study are the way they are without any evidence to support your claims. The burden of proof is upon you to show that these people either converted to Christianity or lied about their religion.

Committing a crime is an immoral act. To go to jail you must have commited a crime.

Trusting a democratically elected government to come up with moral and fair laws seems a pretty good idea to me.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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4/12/2016 12:38:08 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:29:26 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:08:30 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Finally...the study leaves so much out that it's basically useless. Perhaps many became Christian once they got to prison, for instance. Perhaps they lied about their religion - prisoners would never do that I'm sure, since they are obviously well known for being trustworthy. And even IF the study were accurate, it is still a non-sequiter in that it doesn't prove anything about morals.

And once again, how are you even justifying what you consider moral?

Your speculating on why the results of the study are the way they are without any evidence to support your claims. The burden of proof is upon you to show that these people either converted to Christianity or lied about their religion.

Committing a crime is an immoral act. To go to jail you must have commited a crime.

Trusting a democratically elected government to come up with moral and fair laws
seems a pretty good idea to me.

You made the original positive claim, so no I don't have the burden of proof. Quite the contrary, I gave other reasons why your premises could be false. Thereby your argument is invalid. Not to mention that The conclusion doesn't follow anyway.

You are also missing my point again that as an atheist you have no grounds for objective morality. If you disagree then please tell me where your standard or objective morality comes from.
RookieApologist
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4/12/2016 12:40:19 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:21:28 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:04:49 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Yet I bet you would also claim that blacks are obviously unfairly incarcerated since the percentages don't match up with the population. Or is it a fact (as you have presented it here for Christians) that blacks are just more likely to commit crime?

Trying to have it both ways again?

Blacks are more likely to commit crime. That is a fact. I don't claim blacks are unfairly incarcerated.

What is the point in guessing my opinion on an issue and then criticising it before you even know I hold that view?

I'm from the UK where atheism is not connected to left wing political views like it is in the USA. Religion and politics don't mix here. I voted for the conservative party in the general election last year. It's fair to say though that it's not a conservative party by an American definition. It supports a national health service, gay marriage, tight restrictions on gun ownership, abortion and it's politicians don't brag about their religiosity.

All fair enough, thanks
RookieApologist
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4/12/2016 1:23:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:22:41 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.
This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.
Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.

Rookie, Chloe has raised two beliefs she'd like to debunk, namely that:
1) Effective morality can only come from belief in a divine lawgiver; and
2) People who believe in divinely-ordained laws are more law-abiding than people who don't.

May I ask:
I) Which of those beliefs you yourself hold, and why?

II) Which of those beliefs you hold are not debunked by this article, and why?


It's my hope that in presenting your views more honestly and transparently, you'll produce a more constructive and accountable conversation.

I hold myself to number 1 if you change the word "effective" to "objective". Number 2 is not necessarily true or false and does nothing either way to disprove objective morality. Just because those who practice Christianity do it poorly doesn't make Christianity any less true or false. At best it affirms the Christian notion that we are all fallen and have a sin nature.

This article has nothing to do with objective morality or objective moral standards. My point is that Chloe is trying to claim that Christians are less moral than atheists because more prisoners claim to be Christian than atheists, but that as an atheist she has no grounds for objective moral values in the first place. Even if the laws are written by a society, as an atheist, she must claim they are still subjective or a matter of opinion. If she claims they are objective, then she is affirming that God exists, unless she can give some other reason for objective moral values.

I am further trying to show Chloe that her argument does not follow the laws of logic. The conclusion that Christians are more immoral than atheists does not follow from her premises, and therefore the argument is logically invalid, i.e. it is a non-sequitur.

https://www.google.com...

Finally, I haven't even touched on the statistical errors in the study. Correlation is not the same as causality.
RookieApologist
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4/12/2016 1:26:15 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Even the article itself points out the statistical problems:

"There were always a lot of problems with that information:
The percentages did not take into account prisoners whose religious affiliations were unknown or who did not respond at all.
The data in question is more than 15 years old. Whatever it may have represented in the past, it"s practically irrelevant now.
There"s no link to any official document with this data, only HTML code that has gone unverified for well over a decade.
The websites talking about this data aren"t unbiased. They"re clearly atheist sites trying to make atheists look good. While numbers don"t lie, without the primary documents, it"s hard to evaluate how objective this information is.
Golumbaski, the research analyst, no longer works at the Federal Bureau of Prisons" so we couldn"t even confirm that she did this research.
The Holysmoke.org website this information appears on doesn"t exactly exude credibility.
It has been said that the U.S. doesn"t even keep any data on the religious beliefs of inmates. Tom Flynn once wrote in Free Inquiry: "" no prison I know of has permitted researchers to catalogue inmates" religious affiliations. No such data has been kept by any department of corrections " or if kept, no such data has been released."
RookieApologist
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4/12/2016 1:35:05 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Another issue with the statistics:

"Of the prisoners willing to give their religious affiliations (and that"s an important caveat)..."

"Finally, it"s also important to note that 17% of prisoners reported no religious preference." These could be atheists as well...

Again, even IF all the statistics are accurate, and we've seen several caveats which show they may not be, at best all the article does is show that atheists can obey the law. What the article fails to mention, and I have a Masters Degree in Manpower Systems Analysis and did my thesis inside a prison by the way, is that it makes no mention of the sampling error rate, which should be fairly high in this study.

Chloe is also making the presumption that a society's prison population should be indicative of its overall makeup, and this is certainly not necessarily true.
RookieApologist
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4/12/2016 1:37:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Sorry for the multiple posts, but thoughts keep popping up!

Using atheist leaning websites to support atheist leaning viewpoints is not the best way to gain credibility. It doesn't make them untrue, and I won't claim (yet) that it's arguing in a circle, but it's getting close.

There's a reason I'm not using the Bible to defend all of my points, even though I could.
autocorrect
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4/12/2016 5:31:38 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

The interesting figure here is that less atheists go to prison as a percentage of the population as a whole; and I think that's possible to explain. The atheist has to think about morality - rather than read it from a list. It's the difference between looking at a map and actually going there. I've heard of people following the directions of the Sat-Nav - drive straight into the river. That's much less likely to happen if you're watching where you're going. For atheists, morality comes from within, whereas, for believers - morality comes from without. The believer is not themself moral - but moral only insofar as their behaviours match some objective ideal. Thus, it is easier for the believer to fail to match that objective ideal - than it is for the atheist to go against their own personal moral values.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/12/2016 5:37:41 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:23:43 AM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:22:41 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/11/2016 10:59:51 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.
This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.
Congratulations. You have managed to present a non-sequitur and argue in a circle in the same argument.

Rookie, Chloe has raised two beliefs she'd like to debunk, namely that:
1) Effective morality can only come from belief in a divine lawgiver; and
2) People who believe in divinely-ordained laws are more law-abiding than people who don't.

May I ask:
I) Which of those beliefs you yourself hold, and why?
II) Which of those beliefs you hold are not debunked by this article, and why?

It's my hope that in presenting your views more honestly and transparently, you'll produce a more constructive and accountable conversation.

I hold myself to number 1 if you change the word "effective" to "objective". Number 2 is not necessarily true or false and does nothing either way to disprove objective morality.

I see, thank you.

So would I be right in understanding your definition of objective morality to mean morality that is knowable by the minds of men, yet not originating within human minds? And is it your contention that this morality originates with God, and is passed to man unaltered in scripture, and that scripture makes it clear exactly which texts are moral instructions and which are not, and how it should be interpreted? And is it also your contention that this morality is complete and absolute -- that is, unchanging since it was first revealed, and missing nothing of importance? Finally, would you agree that to be objective, morality must be free of cultural context or assumed knowledge? That is, any knowledge required to interpret moral instruction correctly must be found within the text that prescribes it, and not within the minds of the readers?

Just to summarise, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that:

1) Christian morality is fully knowable to men, yet does not originate in the minds of men. In fact it originates with God;
2) It is transmitted complete and entire in scripture, clearly distinguished from other scripture not intended as moral instruction;
3) Absolute, unchanging and free from cultural context and assumed knowledge, anyone can identify the moral instruction in the Bible just from reading the Bible, and both recognise it and interpret it correctly?

If you do not agree with all three statements, please identify which you disagree with, and explain how, despite not upholding these properties, you nevertheless claim that Christian moral knowledge is objective.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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4/12/2016 6:33:19 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:04:49 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Yet I bet you would also claim that blacks are obviously unfairly incarcerated since the percentages don't match up with the population. Or is it a fact (as you have presented it here for Christians) that blacks are just more likely to commit crime?

Trying to have it both ways again?

People of that sort of ethnicity are more likely to be in poverty (Because of history etc), so more of them will commit crime, simply because they are in poverty, not because of race.
Meh!
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/12/2016 9:08:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 5:31:38 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

The interesting figure here is that less atheists go to prison as a percentage of the population as a whole; and I think that's possible to explain. The atheist has to think about morality - rather than read it from a list. It's the difference between looking at a map and actually going there. I've heard of people following the directions of the Sat-Nav - drive straight into the river. That's much less likely to happen if you're watching where you're going. For atheists, morality comes from within, whereas, for believers - morality comes from without. The believer is not themself moral - but moral only insofar as their behaviours match some objective ideal. Thus, it is easier for the believer to fail to match that objective ideal - than it is for the atheist to go against their own personal moral values.

Agree.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,598
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4/12/2016 9:30:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:38:08 AM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:29:26 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:08:30 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Finally...the study leaves so much out that it's basically useless. Perhaps many became Christian once they got to prison, for instance. Perhaps they lied about their religion - prisoners would never do that I'm sure, since they are obviously well known for being trustworthy. And even IF the study were accurate, it is still a non-sequiter in that it doesn't prove anything about morals.

And once again, how are you even justifying what you consider moral?

Your speculating on why the results of the study are the way they are without any evidence to support your claims. The burden of proof is upon you to show that these people either converted to Christianity or lied about their religion.

Committing a crime is an immoral act. To go to jail you must have commited a crime.

Trusting a democratically elected government to come up with moral and fair laws
seems a pretty good idea to me.

You made the original positive claim, so no I don't have the burden of proof. Quite the contrary, I gave other reasons why your premises could be false. Thereby your argument is invalid. Not to mention that The conclusion doesn't follow anyway.

You are also missing my point again that as an atheist you have no grounds for objective morality. If you disagree then please tell me where your standard or objective morality comes from.

My moral standards are obviously my own. However they are very compatible with UK law. As citizens of the uk we elect governments through democratic elections. Collectively as citizens we choose governments that match our opinions on morality most accurately. If a party promoting biblical moral standards stood in UK elections and won then it would be fair to say that implementing biblical moral laws was the majority view of British citizens and implementation of such laws a majority opinion. That however is far from reality. Christian parties pick up minimal votes.

I provided evidence Christians are no less likely than average USA citizens to go to jail. I provided evidence atheists are 30 times less likely to go to jail than Christians. You claimed the evidence I provided was unreliable without providing any evidence to back up your claims. You claim to have disproved my claims but you have merely stated your opinion. Your opinion alone proves nothing.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/12/2016 9:44:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Your evidence is based off of the assumption that demographics are an accurate measure of reality. It would also seem that demographics have a great deal to do with how these concepts are understand. This is part of an "is of identity" type fallacy that assumes because something is called something, that means that is what it is.

If someone says, "I am a Christian", does that make them a Christian? I someone calls someone else a Christian, does that make them a Christian?

Atheism in itself is not a religion, or lack thereof. Atheism is a dogma. A dogma that denies the existence of an Ultimate Reality. There are many religions or philosophies that have atheism as a dogma.

Now anyone can profess a belief, but that doesn't even necessarily mean that they understand what it is they are professing. Someone may sincerely profess belief in something that they don't truly believe in ignorance.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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4/12/2016 10:04:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 9:30:59 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:38:08 AM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:29:26 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/11/2016 11:08:30 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 4/11/2016 9:23:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The United States Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates:

http://www.patheos.com...

Atheists comprise only 0.2% of the prison population. Over 70% of inmates identify as Christian, which is close to the percentage of Christians in the population as a whole. This indicates that Christians on average are no more or less lawful than followers of other faiths.

Declared atheists, on the other hand, comprise approximately 6% of the U.S. population, meaning that the incarceration rate of atheists is 30 times lower than the population rate. This statistic destroys the Christian argument that morality can only come from a belief in God. It argues forcefully that because Christianity does not impart greater levels of morality, it is most likely a false religion.

Finally...the study leaves so much out that it's basically useless. Perhaps many became Christian once they got to prison, for instance. Perhaps they lied about their religion - prisoners would never do that I'm sure, since they are obviously well known for being trustworthy. And even IF the study were accurate, it is still a non-sequiter in that it doesn't prove anything about morals.

And once again, how are you even justifying what you consider moral?

Your speculating on why the results of the study are the way they are without any evidence to support your claims. The burden of proof is upon you to show that these people either converted to Christianity or lied about their religion.

Committing a crime is an immoral act. To go to jail you must have commited a crime.

Trusting a democratically elected government to come up with moral and fair laws
seems a pretty good idea to me.

You made the original positive claim, so no I don't have the burden of proof. Quite the contrary, I gave other reasons why your premises could be false. Thereby your argument is invalid. Not to mention that The conclusion doesn't follow anyway.

You are also missing my point again that as an atheist you have no grounds for objective morality. If you disagree then please tell me where your standard or objective morality comes from.

My moral standards are obviously my own. However they are very compatible with UK law. As citizens of the uk we elect governments through democratic elections. Collectively as citizens we choose governments that match our opinions on morality most accurately. If a party promoting biblical moral standards stood in UK elections and won then it would be fair to say that implementing biblical moral laws was the majority view of British citizens and implementation of such laws a majority opinion. That however is far from reality. Christian parties pick up minimal votes.

I provided evidence Christians are no less likely than average USA citizens to go to jail. I provided evidence atheists are 30 times less likely to go to jail than Christians. You claimed the evidence I provided was unreliable without providing any evidence to back up your claims. You claim to have disproved my claims but you have merely stated your opinion. Your opinion alone proves nothing.

The statistics are schewed because Christians are more likely to confess to a crime than atheists would, given atheism is the art of denial. If atheists can deny God, how difficult would it be to fool a judge who is bound by law to separate the devil from the details as in separation of God's church and state.