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How important is God's name, and the use of.

MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 1:59:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Joel 2:32
32 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,
The survivors whom Jehovah calls."

That makes it sound important doesn't it, if you believe in Jehovah's promise of eternal life anyway.

Both Peter and Paul remind us of that passage when they quote the first line at Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13.

Paul went further and made it clear that one of the important ways of imitating Jesus was to make Jehovah's name known, as he did (John 17:6), and Paul underlines that by adding:

Romans 10:13-15
13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!"

That is precisely the work the Jehovah's Witnesses do in imitation of their King, Christ, as well as imitating him, and the Apostles in every way humanly possible.

It is only Satan who wants Jehovah's name forgotten.

He corrupted Israel by teaching them the superstition that the name was too holy to be spoken aloud.

After Christ and the Apostles made Jehovah's name known again, he caused the Apostasy which followed, precisely as foretold, to attempt to remove it from their translations, as thoroughly as they could, and not doubt would have removed it completely had Jehovah not blinded them to it's existence in at least some places.

Jehovah chose the name himself, and like all truly scriptural names it has a meaning. It means "I shall become", which was jehovah's way of stressing that he will indeed become all he ever intended to be.

Jesus never hid his father behind himself, nor should we hide him behind Jesus. After all, whilst it si true that salvation comes through Christ it still comes from Jehovah, as the Apostles taught.

The plan for his only begotten son to come to earth to sacrifice flesh which was the equivalent to Adam was Jehovah's.

The power by which it was accomplished, as Jesus always stressed was that of his father, Jehovah.

Do not insult Jehovah, or his son, by making them part of a mythical trinity.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/14/2016 2:16:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
It is fairly well understood in theology that The Most Holiest Name of God is unpronounceable. The names that we do use are intended to point to that name.

The name, "Jehovah" just becomes an arbitrary word to someone who doesn't understand it. Besides that, it isn't even a Hebrew word, Hebrew doesn't have a "J" sound.

"I am, I was, and forever will be, The beginning, the end, and all in between." is a better translation.

To say, "I will be" is very disrespectful to God, who is not created.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 2:50:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 2:16:18 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It is fairly well understood in theology that The Most Holiest Name of God is unpronounceable. The names that we do use are intended to point to that name.

That is a human superstition, and not one which God or Christ would endorse. After all Jesus spent enough time teaching his followers his father's name John 17:6. Would he have done so if his father did not mean it to be used?



The name, "Jehovah" just becomes an arbitrary word to someone who doesn't understand it. Besides that, it isn't even a Hebrew word, Hebrew doesn't have a "J" sound.

No it does not become an arbitrary word, it is a carefully thought out approximation of a Romance version of God's self given name. No, it is not Hebrew, but then I don't speak Hebrew, nor do I write in Hebrew Characters. Like most people I write English in it's native Romance characters.

The Hebrew Transliteration into Romance characters is YHWH which is widely believed to be Yahweh.

However, like I say, I don;t speak Hebrew, I speak English and the accepted English version is Jehovah.


"I am, I was, and forever will be, The beginning, the end, and all in between." is a better translation.

Not at all, the only accurate translations stems from variants of I shall be. Jehovah is not a God of the present or past, he is and always was a God of the future.

You are confusing God's name with one of his titles, the Alpha and Omega.


To say, "I will be" is very disrespectful to God, who is not created.

It is far from disrespectful in fact it recognises his plan, as well as the plan he is currently operating through his only begotten son to bring mankind back to what was originally intended before Adam sinned.

No, it is not me who is badly informed. I am afraid you take to much notice of theology and too little of scripture, theology is the word of man, scripture is the word of God.

For my part I shall stick with the word of God, and the guidance of holy spirit. I trust o man completely, and few to any extent at all.. However I trust the word of God implicitly, and trust him to keep his promises to his servants, and guide us through his son and holy spirit.

Jehovah says it is his name we must call on for salvation.

Jesus taught his followers to do so also.

The Apostles followed in that course.

Why should I do differently?

Don't fall for Satan's deceptions. As Christ said, few will find the right road, and that is because Satan directs as many as will follow onto the broad and spacious road instead. Matthew 7:13-14.

And get yourself an more honest copy of the bible. If you can't accept the NWT then go for the ASV. You can teach the same things from all translations, but the ASV and NWT are easier to understand the truth by.

After all, I got the basics of the truth, as a child, from my Mothers pocket edition of the NIV New Testament.

Incidentally I personally hate the terms Old Testament and New Testament. There is nothing truly new in the Christian Greek Scriptures, in that there is not one thing in there that is not simply either a fulfilment of an earlier prophecy fulfilled, or an further explanation of an older prophecy not yet fulfilled, so it is not truly a New Testament at all.

Don;t forget Christ and the Apostles taught all they taught from the Hebrew Scriptures. They had no other.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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4/14/2016 2:56:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Traditionally, and philosophically, "God" was not assigned a name because it was believed that to do so would be hubris. It would imply that we humans can comprehend, and then label, the ultimate and divine mystery that founds and sustains all that exists, including even ourselves.

Unfortunately, some sort of label tended to be necessary for we humans to communicate our ideas about this mystery to each other. And as religious traditions developed and grew, these labels did promote the very hubris that those ancient theologians feared. To the point that several of the worlds largest religious sects now believe that they, exclusively, "own" an understanding of and knowledge of the will of "God". And seek to impose it on the whole world, whether the world agree or not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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4/14/2016 3:03:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
What about Fred, that's a nice name.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/14/2016 3:04:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Yet you persist in using the name "Jehovah" when I flatly told you that it isn't even a Jewish word. There is no "J" sound in Hebrew, does this not give it away?

Maybe instead of telling me to use your preferred translation, you should go and learn the original language.

Though, I'm not sure if that would get you out of the pharisaical mindset, as it didn't really help them that much.

Keep it real. The Spirit of the law gives life, the letter kills.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 3:33:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 3:04:53 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Yet you persist in using the name "Jehovah" when I flatly told you that it isn't even a Jewish word. There is no "J" sound in Hebrew, does this not give it away?

Because, as I say, I do not speak Hebrew, I speak English, therefore I use the English translation.


Maybe instead of telling me to use your preferred translation, you should go and learn the original language.

Why bother when it has already been translated for me, however badly. Mistranslations do not cause the message contained in scripture to fail, Jehovah has made sure of that.


Though, I'm not sure if that would get you out of the pharisaical mindset, as it didn't really help them that much.

I am not in any Pharisaical mindset, not by a long way. If either of us is it is you, who cares more for what humans teach than what Jehovah does, through his son. It is also you who is not prepared to accept other language alternatives, and who is even suggesting that we should not use his name. The Pharisees did all of those things.
Like the Pharisees you seem to insist on rigid rules, whereas Christ taught principle with only two important rules.

Luke 10:25-28
25 Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: "Teacher, what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?" 26 He said to him: "What is written in the Law? How do you read?" 27 In answer he said: ""You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind" and your neighbor as yourself."" 28 He said to him: "You answered correctly; keep doing this and you will get life."

Jesus was quoting directly from Deuteronomy 6:5 and the last part of Leviticus 19:18

Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18
18 ""You must not take vengeance nor hold a grudge against the sons of your people, and you must love your fellow man as yourself. I am Jehovah.

No doubt the time will come when we are once again privileged to know the exact pronunciation of Jehovah's name, since scripture tells us that all will one day know him, and therefore his name also.

I may not know the exact pronunciation of his name, but I know Jehovah, and his son (John 17:3), and they are very much a part of my life, especially since Christ is my reigning King.


Keep it real. The Spirit of the law gives life, the letter kills.

So why be so insistent on the letter of the law? I am not. I am happy to use the closest approximation I can get to Jehovah's name in English, that is the spirit behind his giving us it.

I would not insult any friend by refusing to at least try and pronounce his name, however difficult, and I am certainly not going to insult "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3 et al) in that same way.

Especially since Jehovah is indeed my friend, my best friend, and I hope he sees me as his friend also, the same way he saw Abraham; James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: "Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness," and he came to be called Jehovah"s friend.

Isaiah 41:8
8 "But you, O Israel, are my servant,
You, O Jacob, whom I have chosen,
The offspring of Abraham my friend",

I certainly have great faith in Jehovah, and all his promises, which have been made "yes" by his son.
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 3:34:17 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 3:03:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
What about Fred, that's a nice name.

True, but unlike Jehovah it has no significant meaning.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/14/2016 3:34:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 2:56:33 PM, PureX wrote:
Traditionally, and philosophically, "God" was not assigned a name because it was believed that to do so would be hubris. It would imply that we humans can comprehend, and then label, the ultimate and divine mystery that founds and sustains all that exists, including even ourselves.

No, God was not assigned a name, but he assigned himself one.


Unfortunately, some sort of label tended to be necessary for we humans to communicate our ideas about this mystery to each other. And as religious traditions developed and grew, these labels did promote the very hubris that those ancient theologians feared. To the point that several of the worlds largest religious sects now believe that they, exclusively, "own" an understanding of and knowledge of the will of "God". And seek to impose it on the whole world, whether the world agree or not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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4/14/2016 3:39:02 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 3:34:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/14/2016 3:03:32 PM, bulproof wrote:
What about Fred, that's a nice name.

True, but unlike Jehovah it has no significant meaning.

This fictional god of yours can call himself whatever he likes and he told me he likes Fred.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/14/2016 3:39:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
God's name is very important.

I think we agree on that.

I'm not entirely sure about what that means to you.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 4:33:10 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 3:39:11 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
God's name is very important.

I think we agree on that.

I'm not entirely sure about what that means to you.

No, me either.

It is, as they say, a meeting point, but I wonder just how far apart we are in other ways?

My belief is pure scripture and nothing but, which is why I am in complete sympathy with Jehovah's Witnesses even though I am not currently one of their number. Try as I may have at one time, and in fact did, I cannot disprove anything they teach using scripture alone.

After all no-one wants to be a JW until it sinks in that there really is no genuine alternative.
SpiritandTruth
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4/14/2016 4:41:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
I disagree.

The bible teaches me not to put my faith in man made institution, but God.

I'll walk into any church. I don't care if I agree with the pastor or not. The fact of the matter is, when we practice sincerity of faith, charity, and struggle for purification of heart, it effects the people around you in profound ways.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 5:50:06 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 4:41:27 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I disagree.

The bible teaches me not to put my faith in man made institution, but God.

No that is not what the Bible teaches. It says not to put your trust in men.

However JWs have proved to me very effectively that they are in fact Jehovah's own organisation, not that of any man, and they are in fact spirit guided, if not exactly led.

One thing scripture should have taught you is that Jehovah has always had some for of human organisation on earth, when he has had anything.

If you study the Christian Greek Scriptures you ill find that the organisation of JWs is modelled on the organisation of the 1st century Congregations.

That is the only possible way of maintaining the unanimity of belief Christ prayed for in John 17, and Paul repeated the request for at 1 Corinthians 1:10.

Just like the JWs the first century Congregations were scripture led by means of a system of travelling overseers, and any disputes that cold not be sorted out by them were passed on to the Apostles and Older men in Jerusalem, exactly the same way that such disputes are passed up to the Governing Body.

However they are still human, and have been known to make mistakes, but the trust n Jehovah come in to it that, whilst maintaining the unity of teaching individual JWs, and myself, wait for Jehovah to sort out any errors in his own time.

If you follow what Christ and thee Apostles taught, Christ came to the earth in order to form a New Nation under a New Covenant to replace unfaithful Israel who had been abandoned for that unfaithfulness.

However Jesus himself only came to gather the basis of that "New Nation" from a faithful remnant of Judah.

These were then added to by the faithful of Samaria, and finally the faithful amongst Gentiles.

Paul explains this quite thoroughly in Hebrews.

This New Nation was known as "The Israel of God" Galatians 6:16.

Unfortunately, but precisely as foretold, that New Nation also proved unfaithful following the death of the last of the Apostles. Leaving Jehovah once again without an organisation and Christ without followers. However since the Kingdom was not due to take it's place, as it turned out, for over 1800 years that was not, back then, a big problem


I'll walk into any church. I don't care if I agree with the pastor or not. The fact of the matter is, when we practice sincerity of faith, charity, and struggle for purification of heart, it effects the people around you in profound ways.

Careful, don't forget Jehovah's injunction to his people to "Get out of her my people".

Out of who?

Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religions, which includes all who do not teach truth.

Also don't forget John 4:23-24, one of scripture's more vital passages.

John 4:23, 24
23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth."

That is not an option, it is an absolute must. You have to worship Jehovah, not just with spirit but with truth. And there can be only one truth.

Any faith, whatever it's claims, which does not teach that one truth is part of Babylon the Great, and that therefore includes thousands of so called Christian faiths.

You notice also, that Christ said that his father, Jehovah is actively seeking such ones, and when he finds them what does he do?

He draws them to the side of his son John 6:44.

Why?

So his son can teach them and form them into an organisation capable of fulfilling Matthew 24:14, because we are now in the time when that is absolutely necessary, and only an organisation can achieve it.

That organisation are the JWs, but I don;t expect you to just take my word for it.

Learn about them, and you could not start at a better place than http://www.jw.org....

Then at least you can make up your own mind in knowledge rather than ignorance.

I think you might even enjoy it.
SpiritandTruth
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4/14/2016 5:54:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
I believe in the communion of saints.

I also believe in the Holy Catholic Church.

The word "catholic" means universal. The word "holy" means complete or perfect.

The Church is non-denominational and universal.

I don't put my faith in men or human institution. This is a type of idolatry.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
MadCornishBiker
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4/14/2016 6:06:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:54:49 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I believe in the communion of saints.

I also believe in the Holy Catholic Church.


The word "catholic" means universal. The word "holy" means complete or perfect.


The Church is non-denominational and universal.

I don't put my faith in men or human institution. This is a type of idolatry.

And yet that is exactly what you are doing.

The Church is a denomination in itself, and is the major part of the Apostasy that started with the death of the last Apostle.

It didn't even exist until the middle of the 4th century, and was only created then, by Constantine, as a political force.

Personally I'll stick with the Bible and what Christ and the Apostles taught, that rules out the RCs 100%.
SpiritandTruth
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4/14/2016 6:12:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Roman Catholicism is a denomination. The are an image of the Holy Catholic Church.

Let this sink in. Universal and without division.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,