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Lets argue who the "christian champion"...

The-Holy-Macrel
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

So firstly, why do Christians need a single champion when they don't even have a single cultural identity?

Secondly, what other than zealous cruelty qualifies the candidates you've nominated? One isn't a Christian by normal standards of creed; the other is a Christian whose beliefs nevertheless aren't shared by 87% of Christianity.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/14/2016 5:54:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

Its a bit late Macrel, you were the only person who voted for hari's self invented position.
The-Holy-Macrel
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 6:33:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

So firstly, why do Christians need a single champion when they don't even have a single cultural identity?

Secondly, what other than zealous cruelty qualifies the candidates you've nominated? One isn't a Christian by normal standards of creed; the other is a Christian whose beliefs nevertheless aren't shared by 87% of Christianity.

People like Harakrish keep claiming to be "the christian champion".

I want to see them argue it out.

For entertainment.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/14/2016 6:39:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:33:49 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

So firstly, why do Christians need a single champion when they don't even have a single cultural identity?

Secondly, what other than zealous cruelty qualifies the candidates you've nominated? One isn't a Christian by normal standards of creed; the other is a Christian whose beliefs nevertheless aren't shared by 87% of Christianity.

People like Harakrish keep claiming to be "the christian champion".

I want to see them argue it out.

For entertainment.

8cD

I don't think Bronto's ambitions are limited to being just the Christian champion, Macrel. From what I've seen of his posts, he's also God's champion, and champion for humanity and civilisation.

But I also don't think he believes he has to earn it. I think he believes he's inherited it already -- perhaps by virtue of possessing the Four Talismans of Sanctimony, comprising: a Bible, a penis, American citizenship, and a self-satisfied opinion.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

You might be surprised, Jerry. Smarter Christians are very good at it. Perhaps you haven't met any?

In any case, a more reliable way to tell who is not a Christian is to ask them.

I'm not. :)
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/14/2016 6:53:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
It is not anyone's place to judge whether or not someone else is a Christian.

Anyone who believes a man at his word when he claims to be a Christian is either acting in charity, or acting as a fool.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that. Many people who critique religions have no idea what they are talking about (you being an example). So it takes a person who knows the religion in order to critique it. Although, you don't have to be religious in order to completely understand it...so I would say that a person must know something about the topic before they discuss it.

You might be surprised, Jerry. Smarter Christians are very good at it. Perhaps you haven't met any?

I have heard many smart people speak on the matter. What is your point? Are you trying to insult me?

In any case, a more reliable way to tell who is not a Christian is to ask them.

Yes, that is a great starting point.

I'm not. :)

Your lack of understanding of Christian beliefs proved that. See...I don't need you to tell me that you aren't a Christian in order for me to figure that out.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/14/2016 8:48:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

Since neither of them meets the scriptural qualifications for being Christian nether wins.

Simple as.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

As you may know, such schisms pretty much began with the early church fathers of the Roman Empire, and if anything, got worse as the faith became more popular. Some critics find it regrettable that this has continued; others deplorable. Then there are a great many Christians unaware of just how diverse is Christian thought; who couldn't tell you the key differences between (say) Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, or Coptic Christianity. And even more -- whom I count too self-satisfied to even be curious, don't really care, think they have the answer to all this division regardless, and it tends to be that everyone else needs to come to the realisation that they alone are right.

And then we can find Biblical and Ancient Near Eastern scholars of various faiths, who for over a century, have been trying to unpick how this state of affairs came about, and what might have preceded it. Based on current information, they tend to agree that the faithful who think their traditions have it right, have very little idea of just how different were the traditions and thought that preceded theirs.

You might be surprised, Jerry. Smarter Christians are very good at it. Perhaps you haven't met any?
I have heard many smart people speak on the matter. What is your point?
My point is that if you think critique of Christianity comes only from non-Christians, then you must not have met many smart Christians. (Or more likely, confecting the conclusion to patronise -- on which, please see more below.)

Are you trying to insult me?
You seem to be doing a good job of that on yourself.

In any case, a more reliable way to tell who is not a Christian is to ask them.
Yes, that is a great starting point.
What a pity you didn't start there, then.

I'm not. :)
Your lack of understanding of Christian beliefs proved that.
Of the several millennia-long intellectual flaws in Christian thought, Jerry, among the worst is paternalism -- a sanctimonious responsibility for correcting and improving every non-Christian they meet. Christians seem to find it hard to express their contempt for non-Christian thought honestly -- perhaps because they're told to love everyone -- so they like to patronise, which is as near as they get to loving without respecting.

I don't require you to respect me, by the way. I just note that by approaching this conversation from a place of presuppositional contempt, you're expressing much the same sort of self-satisfaction that has kept Christian schisms in place since the fourth century CE or so.

My corollary being that just as you can't tell an atheist from criticism of Christianity, neither can you tell someone's knowledge of religion in general or Christianity in particular, from their beliefs about faith.
The-Holy-Macrel
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 10:18:22 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 6:39:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:33:49 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

So firstly, why do Christians need a single champion when they don't even have a single cultural identity?

Secondly, what other than zealous cruelty qualifies the candidates you've nominated? One isn't a Christian by normal standards of creed; the other is a Christian whose beliefs nevertheless aren't shared by 87% of Christianity.

People like Harakrish keep claiming to be "the christian champion".

I want to see them argue it out.

For entertainment.

8cD

I don't think Bronto's ambitions are limited to being just the Christian champion, Macrel. From what I've seen of his posts, he's also God's champion, and champion for humanity and civilisation.

But I also don't think he believes he has to earn it. I think he believes he's inherited it already -- perhaps by virtue of possessing the Four Talismans of Sanctimony, comprising: a Bible, a penis, American citizenship, and a self-satisfied opinion.

Precisely, i want them to destroy each
other so i can murder them in a leter
battle of logic.

I am constructing a ultimatum argument
proving christianity.

I want to become a "christian champion"
just to build respect so i can turn people
to god and away from eternal torment
and death.

I need to become the best so i can be the leader.

If i can't reason my leadership i shall force it.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/14/2016 10:38:22 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

Can you point to a specific example instead of giving bare assertions? I acknowledge that there some differences but none of them are major like you are saying. Although, I could see what you are saying if you were to try and compare Christianity to the Mormons or etc...

As you may know, such schisms pretty much began with the early church fathers of the Roman Empire, and if anything, got worse as the faith became more popular. Some critics find it regrettable that this has continued; others deplorable. Then there are a great many Christians unaware of just how diverse is Christian thought; who couldn't tell you the key differences between (say) Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, or Coptic Christianity. And even more -- whom I count too self-satisfied to even be curious, don't really care, think they have the answer to all this division regardless, and it tends to be that everyone else needs to come to the realisation that they alone are right.

You are still not specific enough. While people disagree on some things, that is what humans do. Though, Catholics and the orthodox have very similar beliefs. So you really do have to point to something specific in order for me to get what you are saying.

And then we can find Biblical and Ancient Near Eastern scholars of various faiths, who for over a century, have been trying to unpick how this state of affairs came about, and what might have preceded it. Based on current information, they tend to agree that the faithful who think their traditions have it right, have very little idea of just how different were the traditions and thought that preceded theirs.

You might be surprised, Jerry. Smarter Christians are very good at it. Perhaps you haven't met any?
I have heard many smart people speak on the matter. What is your point?
My point is that if you think critique of Christianity comes only from non-Christians, then you must not have met many smart Christians. (Or more likely, confecting the conclusion to patronise -- on which, please see more below.)

I never said it only came from non-Christians. But when the critique is not well formed, and when it is clear the person has no idea what they are talking about...that is when I sometimes jump in the conversation.

Are you trying to insult me?
You seem to be doing a good job of that on yourself.

That doesn't make any sense.

In any case, a more reliable way to tell who is not a Christian is to ask them.
Yes, that is a great starting point.
What a pity you didn't start there, then.

Uh...that is where I always start. The exception is when people misrepresent certain parts of different religions and it is obvious that they don't know what they are talking about.

I'm not. :)
Your lack of understanding of Christian beliefs proved that.
Of the several millennia-long intellectual flaws in Christian thought, Jerry, among the worst is paternalism -- a sanctimonious responsibility for correcting and improving every non-Christian they meet. Christians seem to find it hard to express their contempt for non-Christian thought honestly -- perhaps because they're told to love everyone -- so they like to patronise, which is as near as they get to loving without respecting.

Wasn't trying to patronize you...but you made a lot of bare assertions that would seriously cause damage to the Christian faith if they were true. I just want you to back up the claims you make.

I don't require you to respect me, by the way. I just note that by approaching this conversation from a place of presuppositional contempt, you're expressing much the same sort of self-satisfaction that has kept Christian schisms in place since the fourth century CE or so.

No actually, there is no contempt at all on my part. I merely said in response to your post "When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian." I actually respect you as of right now. That respect only goes away when people treat me poorly. You did try to attack my intelligence...but I haven't done anything offensive to you.

My corollary being that just as you can't tell an atheist from criticism of Christianity, neither can you tell someone's knowledge of religion in general or Christianity in particular, from their beliefs about faith.

I don't understand what you mean by that.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/14/2016 10:50:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

brontoraptor gets my vote
hari is mean spirited to many
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/14/2016 11:59:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 10:38:22 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

Can you point to a specific example instead of giving bare assertions?

I certainly can, once you acknowledge the conceited paternalism in your position, namely that, because I'm an atheist commenting on your faith, anything I might have learned about your faith which you haven't learned, must be presumed false until proven. On the other hand, as a Christian critiquing an atheist's commentary on Christianity, you'd like anything you say about your faith to be presumed authoritative unless I can disprove it.

Acknowledge that prejudice, and I'll seek to answer whatever relevant questions you ask on the history of Christian thought, in a separate thread.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 11:59:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 10:38:22 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

Macrel, Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

Can you point to a specific example instead of giving bare assertions?

I certainly can, once you acknowledge the conceited paternalism in your position, namely that, because I'm an atheist commenting on your faith, anything I might have learned about your faith which you haven't learned, must be presumed false until proven. On the other hand, as a Christian critiquing an atheist's commentary on Christianity, you'd like anything you say about your faith to be presumed authoritative unless I can disprove it.

Acknowledge that prejudice, and I'll seek to answer whatever relevant questions you ask on the history of Christian thought, in a separate thread.

Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 11:59:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 10:38:22 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

Can you point to a specific example instead of giving bare assertions?

I certainly can, once you acknowledge the conceited paternalism in your position, namely that, because I'm an atheist commenting on your faith, anything I might have learned about your faith which you haven't learned, must be presumed false until proven. On the other hand, as a Christian critiquing an atheist's commentary on Christianity, you'd like anything you say about your faith to be presumed authoritative unless I can disprove it.

Acknowledge that prejudice, and I'll seek to answer whatever relevant questions you ask on the history of Christian thought, in a separate thread.

Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 11:59:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 10:38:22 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 9:36:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:56:10 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:47:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/14/2016 6:42:47 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:51:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Christians don't agree on how their canon was written or curated, who wrote it or how to interpret it. They don't agree on who is or is not a Christian, what is and is not sacred or original traditions, or what are and are not Christian morality, Christian ethical obligations, or acceptable Christian behaviour.

When people say stuff like that...that is how we can tell who is not a Christian.
Because faith doesn't permit one to critique one's own religious culture and history?

I would disagree with that.
Good, because that's precisely my point, Jerry. We can find well-educated Christian critics of their own faith who will point out the enormous, prolonged and unhealed divisions in Christianity itself -- divisions of canon, morality, tradition, creed and culture, so not every person who says so is an atheist -- and I'd suggest that in fact, most who do so, are not.

Can you point to a specific example instead of giving bare assertions?

I certainly can, once you acknowledge the conceited paternalism in your position, namely that, because I'm an atheist commenting on your faith, anything I might have learned about your faith which you haven't learned, must be presumed false until proven. On the other hand, as a Christian critiquing an atheist's commentary on Christianity, you'd like anything you say about your faith to be presumed authoritative unless I can disprove it.

Acknowledge that prejudice, and I'll seek to answer whatever relevant questions you ask on the history of Christian thought, in a separate thread.

Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

My first response was that I could tell that you weren't a Christian. Turns out I was right.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

I never said that you were an atheist. Being a non-Christian doesn't automatically mean that I think that you are an atheist. That said, I am skeptical because you didn't support anything you said. I don't understand why you don't get that people won't accept whatever you say as fact.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.

If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

My first response was that I could tell that you weren't a Christian. Turns out I was right.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

I never said that you were an atheist. Being a non-Christian doesn't automatically mean that I think that you are an atheist. That said, I am skeptical because you didn't support anything you said. I don't understand why you don't get that people won't accept whatever you say as fact.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.

If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.

Should you ever feel that might be you, please feel free to revisit the manner and tone with which you first engaged me and we can proceed.

Or else, feel free to wait until a member who engages this forum more sincerely asks a question that interests you. I will endeavour to answer good faith questions as I can, and perhaps that may satisfy your interest.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

My first response was that I could tell that you weren't a Christian. Turns out I was right.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

I never said that you were an atheist. Being a non-Christian doesn't automatically mean that I think that you are an atheist. That said, I am skeptical because you didn't support anything you said. I don't understand why you don't get that people won't accept whatever you say as fact.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.

If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.

I have done none of that.

Should you ever feel that might be you, please feel free to revisit the manner and tone with which you first engaged me and we can proceed.

My tone has been fine. You were the one who insulted my intelligence and then now ironically accuses me of bad conduct. How does that make any sense?

Or else, feel free to wait until a member who engages this forum more sincerely asks a question that interests you. I will endeavour to answer good faith questions as I can, and perhaps that may satisfy your interest.

Same to you. If you ever want to learn something about Christianity, feel free to contact me.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/15/2016 12:54:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

My first response was that I could tell that you weren't a Christian. Turns out I was right.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

I never said that you were an atheist. Being a non-Christian doesn't automatically mean that I think that you are an atheist. That said, I am skeptical because you didn't support anything you said. I don't understand why you don't get that people won't accept whatever you say as fact.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.

If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.
I have done none of that.
You certainly haven't admitted it.

Should you ever feel that might be you, please feel free to revisit the manner and tone with which you first engaged me and we can proceed.
My tone has been fine.
As independently assessed by whom?

You were the one who insulted my intelligence and then now ironically accuses me of bad conduct. How does that make any sense?
I'm afraid I cannot help you reflect on your manner, tone or world-view, Jerry. But I'm sure you might manage that yourself, should you ever marshal the doubt.

Or else, feel free to wait until a member who engages this forum more sincerely asks a question that interests you. I will endeavour to answer good faith questions as I can, and perhaps that may satisfy your interest.
Same to you. If you ever want to learn something about Christianity, feel free to contact me.
Thank you, Jerry, but patronising, self-appointed Internet experts are invariably disappointing. I find that a better way to learn about history is with primary sources when I can read them, or reputable, historiological texts when I can't.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/15/2016 1:02:52 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 12:54:54 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:25:18 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:03:19 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Look, I have been studying this stuff my whole life. If you have something valid to say, please message me. I am open to hear what you have to say. But I don't know why you expect people to take your bare assertions seriously when you have no evidence to back them up. Or at least you haven't provided any evidence yet even if it does exist.

Asking for evidence is a legitimate response, Jerry, but wasn't your first.

My first response was that I could tell that you weren't a Christian. Turns out I was right.

Your first was to suppose anyone offering criticism of the schismatic nature of Christian thought was an atheist, and then presuming that an atheist wouldn't know enough about the history of Christian thought to offer historical criticism.

I never said that you were an atheist. Being a non-Christian doesn't automatically mean that I think that you are an atheist. That said, I am skeptical because you didn't support anything you said. I don't understand why you don't get that people won't accept whatever you say as fact.

Acquit that and we can proceed. Or fail to do so, and you'll have convinced me that your vanity is more important to you than your subject interest, which would make further discussion a waste of my time.

If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.
I have done none of that.
You certainly haven't admitted it.

What did I say that offended you?

Should you ever feel that might be you, please feel free to revisit the manner and tone with which you first engaged me and we can proceed.
My tone has been fine.
As independently assessed by whom?

Well, considering that you can't hear my tone since this is an online forum I would say that I am the best judge of my tone.

You were the one who insulted my intelligence and then now ironically accuses me of bad conduct. How does that make any sense?
I'm afraid I cannot help you reflect on your manner, tone or world-view, Jerry. But I'm sure you might manage that yourself, should you ever marshal the doubt.

You are the only one that has said something offensive in this discussion.

Or else, feel free to wait until a member who engages this forum more sincerely asks a question that interests you. I will endeavour to answer good faith questions as I can, and perhaps that may satisfy your interest.
Same to you. If you ever want to learn something about Christianity, feel free to contact me.
Thank you, Jerry, but patronising, self-appointed Internet experts are invariably disappointing. I find that a better way to learn about history is with primary sources when I can read them, or reputable, historiological texts when I can't.

Nothing I said was patronizing in any way. I don't get why you are getting offended so easily.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/15/2016 1:08:27 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 1:02:52 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:54:54 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.
I have done none of that.
You certainly haven't admitted it.

What did I say that offended you?
What a splendid question that would have been five posts ago.

Please reread our exchanges at your leisure, Jerry. You'll find all the answers you need there, once you believe you need some.

I regret that I am unable to help you further at this time.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/15/2016 1:31:13 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 1:08:27 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 1:02:52 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:54:54 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.
I have done none of that.
You certainly haven't admitted it.

What did I say that offended you?
What a splendid question that would have been five posts ago.

Please reread our exchanges at your leisure, Jerry. You'll find all the answers you need there, once you believe you need some.

I regret that I am unable to help you further at this time.

You can't be serious?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/15/2016 1:48:21 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 1:31:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 1:08:27 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 1:02:52 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:54:54 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:43:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:40:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/15/2016 12:29:17 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
If you want to support the claims you made...feel free to message me. Like I said, I am open to whatever you have to say.

I will be happy to do so with a member who engages in good faith, Jerry. By that, I mean, a member who doesn't engage discussion with prejudice, bigotry and paternalistic conceit.
I have done none of that.
You certainly haven't admitted it.

What did I say that offended you?
What a splendid question that would have been five posts ago.

Please reread our exchanges at your leisure, Jerry. You'll find all the answers you need there, once you believe you need some.

I regret that I am unable to help you further at this time.

You can't be serious?

I'm afraid so. Good luck.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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4/15/2016 2:03:45 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

I don't think Brontoraptor is prepared to be a Christian Champion. His lack of scriptural knowledge disqualifies him. Having the blind lead the blind has been tried before and never worked.
Consider my introduction.
"I would like to volunteer my time, training in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism and spiritual enlightenment to defend Christianity if the Christian members on DDO have the confidence in me that I serve their cause well. If they vote me as their Christian champion based on my scriptural knowledge, scriptural integrity and scriptural universality (universal beliefs of Christianity) I will respond to every negative and anti-Christian post that is brought to my attention.
I don't know what it takes to get a majority Christian vote. But we can begin by getting your endorsements and then checking with the moderators to make me the official goto Christian David.
I am a Vedantists raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a Hindu by birth but married into a Christian family that includes two Christian pastors and two generations of church goers. I don't debate my Christian relatives. They have accepted my inclusion as a testament to my blessed opportunity. And in return I studied their scriptures.
Please consider my challenge to atheists as personal and support/endorse me as your champion. The rest I will leave it to the Lord and pray for strength and support as we eradicate DDO from the scourge of atheism.
I look forward to winning support from our preterists members as deluded as they might be and our senior menopausal virgins who patiently stand by and wait. But most of all I appeal to Christians members who are looking for a champion who is articulate, principled and spiritually unequalled on DDO.
Peace to all.... Please make your vote known that I may be the David of your dreams."
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/15/2016 6:46:12 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 2:03:45 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

I don't think Brontoraptor is prepared to be a Christian Champion. His lack of scriptural knowledge disqualifies him. Having the blind lead the blind has been tried before and never worked.
Consider my introduction.
"I would like to volunteer my time, training in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism and spiritual enlightenment to defend Christianity if the Christian members on DDO have the confidence in me that I serve their cause well. If they vote me as their Christian champion based on my scriptural knowledge, scriptural integrity and scriptural universality (universal beliefs of Christianity) I will respond to every negative and anti-Christian post that is brought to my attention.
I don't know what it takes to get a majority Christian vote. But we can begin by getting your endorsements and then checking with the moderators to make me the official goto Christian David.
I am a Vedantists raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a Hindu by birth but married into a Christian family that includes two Christian pastors and two generations of church goers. I don't debate my Christian relatives. They have accepted my inclusion as a testament to my blessed opportunity. And in return I studied their scriptures.
Please consider my challenge to atheists as personal and support/endorse me as your champion. The rest I will leave it to the Lord and pray for strength and support as we eradicate DDO from the scourge of atheism.
I look forward to winning support from our preterists members as deluded as they might be and our senior menopausal virgins who patiently stand by and wait. But most of all I appeal to Christians members who are looking for a champion who is articulate, principled and spiritually unequalled on DDO.
Peace to all.... Please make your vote known that I may be the David of your dreams."

Hari, could you please post a link to the posts which allegedly mention the non positions of DDO Christian Champion and DDO Muslim Champion, prior to you inventing them and awarding both to yourself.
Also could you explain who has held these non-positions prior to your self coronations?
RedAtheist912
Posts: 89
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4/15/2016 6:50:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 2:03:45 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

I don't think Brontoraptor is prepared to be a Christian Champion. His lack of scriptural knowledge disqualifies him. Having the blind lead the blind has been tried before and never worked.
Consider my introduction.
"I would like to volunteer my time, training in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism and spiritual enlightenment to defend Christianity if the Christian members on DDO have the confidence in me that I serve their cause well. If they vote me as their Christian champion based on my scriptural knowledge, scriptural integrity and scriptural universality (universal beliefs of Christianity) I will respond to every negative and anti-Christian post that is brought to my attention.
I don't know what it takes to get a majority Christian vote. But we can begin by getting your endorsements and then checking with the moderators to make me the official goto Christian David.
I am a Vedantists raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a Hindu by birth but married into a Christian family that includes two Christian pastors and two generations of church goers. I don't debate my Christian relatives. They have accepted my inclusion as a testament to my blessed opportunity. And in return I studied their scriptures.
Please consider my challenge to atheists as personal and support/endorse me as your champion. The rest I will leave it to the Lord and pray for strength and support as we eradicate DDO from the scourge of atheism.
I look forward to winning support from our preterists members as deluded as they might be and our senior menopausal virgins who patiently stand by and wait. But most of all I appeal to Christians members who are looking for a champion who is articulate, principled and spiritually unequalled on DDO.
Peace to all.... Please make your vote known that I may be the David of your dreams."

Thought Jesus and Muhammad were Christians' and Muslims' leader and Lord. But no, Harikish is unarguably the one true champion (Harikish 1:1).
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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4/15/2016 2:27:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 6:46:12 AM, desmac wrote:
At 4/15/2016 2:03:45 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

I don't think Brontoraptor is prepared to be a Christian Champion. His lack of scriptural knowledge disqualifies him. Having the blind lead the blind has been tried before and never worked.
Consider my introduction.
"I would like to volunteer my time, training in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism and spiritual enlightenment to defend Christianity if the Christian members on DDO have the confidence in me that I serve their cause well. If they vote me as their Christian champion based on my scriptural knowledge, scriptural integrity and scriptural universality (universal beliefs of Christianity) I will respond to every negative and anti-Christian post that is brought to my attention.
I don't know what it takes to get a majority Christian vote. But we can begin by getting your endorsements and then checking with the moderators to make me the official goto Christian David.
I am a Vedantists raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a Hindu by birth but married into a Christian family that includes two Christian pastors and two generations of church goers. I don't debate my Christian relatives. They have accepted my inclusion as a testament to my blessed opportunity. And in return I studied their scriptures.
Please consider my challenge to atheists as personal and support/endorse me as your champion. The rest I will leave it to the Lord and pray for strength and support as we eradicate DDO from the scourge of atheism.
I look forward to winning support from our preterists members as deluded as they might be and our senior menopausal virgins who patiently stand by and wait. But most of all I appeal to Christians members who are looking for a champion who is articulate, principled and spiritually unequalled on DDO.
Peace to all.... Please make your vote known that I may be the David of your dreams."

Hari, could you please post a link to the posts which allegedly mention the non positions of DDO Christian Champion and DDO Muslim Champion, prior to you inventing them and awarding both to yourself.
Also could you explain who has held these non-positions prior to your self coronations?

What?, you still haven't figured how to use the search engine. You must be really retarded or stuck on stupid. Every member who defends Christianity is a Christian champion. This is a religious forum and there are many Christian members who defend their faith against atheists attacks or others. They are all Christian champions. To even argue Harikrish is the only Christian champion ever on DDO is idolatry. You are obsessed with Harikrish and will accept no other Christian Champion other than Harikrish. Which is all very flattering but try a little harder, I am sure there are other Christian champions before me.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/15/2016 2:57:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/15/2016 2:27:53 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/15/2016 6:46:12 AM, desmac wrote:
At 4/15/2016 2:03:45 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/14/2016 5:23:08 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
We are going to argue about who
the "christian champion" should be.

This is directed towards Harakrish and Bonotoraptor.

I know i misspelled bone but i don't feel like getting the right one.

I don't think Brontoraptor is prepared to be a Christian Champion. His lack of scriptural knowledge disqualifies him. Having the blind lead the blind has been tried before and never worked.
Consider my introduction.
"I would like to volunteer my time, training in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism and spiritual enlightenment to defend Christianity if the Christian members on DDO have the confidence in me that I serve their cause well. If they vote me as their Christian champion based on my scriptural knowledge, scriptural integrity and scriptural universality (universal beliefs of Christianity) I will respond to every negative and anti-Christian post that is brought to my attention.
I don't know what it takes to get a majority Christian vote. But we can begin by getting your endorsements and then checking with the moderators to make me the official goto Christian David.
I am a Vedantists raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a Hindu by birth but married into a Christian family that includes two Christian pastors and two generations of church goers. I don't debate my Christian relatives. They have accepted my inclusion as a testament to my blessed opportunity. And in return I studied their scriptures.
Please consider my challenge to atheists as personal and support/endorse me as your champion. The rest I will leave it to the Lord and pray for strength and support as we eradicate DDO from the scourge of atheism.
I look forward to winning support from our preterists members as deluded as they might be and our senior menopausal virgins who patiently stand by and wait. But most of all I appeal to Christians members who are looking for a champion who is articulate, principled and spiritually unequalled on DDO.
Peace to all.... Please make your vote known that I may be the David of your dreams."

Hari, could you please post a link to the posts which allegedly mention the non positions of DDO Christian Champion and DDO Muslim Champion, prior to you inventing them and awarding both to yourself.
Also could you explain who has held these non-positions prior to your self coronations?

What?, you still haven't figured how to use the search engine. You must be really retarded or stuck on stupid. Every member who defends Christianity is a Christian champion. This is a religious forum and there are many Christian members who defend their faith against atheists attacks or others. They are all Christian champions. To even argue Harikrish is the only Christian champion ever on DDO is idolatry. You are obsessed with Harikrish and will accept no other Christian Champion other than Harikrish. Which is all very flattering but try a little harder, I am sure there are other Christian champions before me.

Who were they? Why do refuse to post a link to these fabled posts that mention DDO faith champions before you invented the idiotic terms?