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Entropy

Impartial
Posts: 375
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4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?
To believe is to know nothing.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/20/2016 8:27:57 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

This is an interesting question, which Christians tend to evade.

So they believe God created the universe, notably planet Earth for mankind to inhabit and prosper. Splendid. Now, what's coming:

1 ) The Andromeda"Milky Way collision in about 4 000 000 000 years. Earth will have become too hot to support life even before the collision occurs.
(https://en.wikipedia.org...)

2. The Sun will probably and eventually engulf planet Earth in approximately 5 000 000 000 years
(https://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Heat death of the universe in 10^100 years
(https://en.wikipedia.org...)

I wonder, if the Creator designed all this, what did he have in mind?
Osman35
Posts: 52
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4/20/2016 9:07:40 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
THIRD MATTER
An important matter that has not been solved by philosophy and reason.
Every day in [new] splendour does He [shine]!(55:29) * Indeed, your
Sustainer is Doer of what He will.(11:107; 85:16)
Q u e s t i o n : What is the reason for the astonishing unceasing activity in the universe? What is the wisdom in it? Why do these fleeting beings not stop, but are continuously changed and renewed?
The Answer:Toexplainthewisdominthiswouldrequireathousand pages. So we shall leave aside a full explanation and condense in two pages an extremely brief summary of it.
If a person performs a natural function or social duty enthusiastically, anyone who observes him carefully will certainly understand that there are two things that make him act in this way:
The First are the benefits, fruits, and advantages resulting from the duty, which are called the ultimate cause.
The Second: Such things as love, desire, and pleasure cause him to perform the duty enthusiastically, and these are called the necessitating cause and reason.
For example, eating food; the pleasurable longing arising from appetite drive a person to eat, and afterwards, the result of eating is nourishing the body and perpetuating life. In the same way, "And God"s is the highest similitude,"(16:60) based on two sorts of divine names, the awesome and astonishing endless activity in the universe occurs for two vast instances of wisdom, each of which is also infinite:
The First: Almighty God"s Most Beautiful Names have incalculable sorts of manifestations. The variety in creatures arises from the variety of the manifestations. The names require to be manifested in a permanent fashion; that is, they want to display their embroideries; that is, they want to see and display the manifestations of their beauties in the mirrors of their embroideries; that is, they want every instant to renew the book of the universe and missives of beings; that is, they necessitate the continuous meaningful writing, and to display each missive to the attentive gaze of the Most Pure and Holy Essence, the One signified, as well as to all conscious beings; they require to make each of the missives read.
The Second Reason and Instance of Wisdom: Just as the activity of creatures arises from appetite, desire, and pleasure, and there is a definite pleasure in all activity; indeed, all activity is a sort of pleasure; so too, in a suitable way and form appropriate to His essential self-sufficiency and absolute riches and in a manner fitting for His absolute perfection, the Necessarily Existent One has boundless sacred compassion and infinite holy love. And He feels a boundless sacred ardour arising from that sacred compassion and holy love, and an endless holy joy arising from that sacred ardour, and, if one may say so, an infinite sacred pleasure arising from the sacred joy. And pertaining to that Merciful and Compassionate One, is, if the term is permissible, a boundless sacred gratification and infinite holy pride arising from the boundless feeling of compassion that springs from the sacred pleasure, sacred gratification and pride which arise from the gratitude and perfections of creatures which result from their abilities emerging from the potential to the actual and their developing within the activity of power. It is these which necessitate in boundless fashion, an endless activity.
Because philosophy, science, and natural philosophy do not know this subtle instance of wisdom, they have confused unconscious nature, blind chance, and lifeless causes in this utterly knowing, wise, percipient activity, and falling into the darkness of misguidance, have been unable to find the light of reality.
Say, "God [sent it down];" then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.(6:91)
O our Sustainer! Do not cause our hearts to swerve now that You have guided us, and bestow mercy upon us from Yourself; indeed, You are the Bestower of Gifts.(3:8)
O God! Grant blessings and peace to the Solver of the talisman of Your universe to the number of atoms of beings, and to his Family and Companions, so long as the earth and the heavens persist.
The Eternal One, He is the Eternal One!
Said Nursi
...source: risale-i nur collection
Impartial
Posts: 375
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4/20/2016 9:54:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 9:07:40 PM, Osman35 wrote:
THIRD MATTER
An important matter that has not been solved by philosophy and reason.
Every day in [new] splendour does He [shine]!(55:29) * Indeed, your
Sustainer is Doer of what He will.(11:107; 85:16)
Q u e s t i o n : What is the reason for the astonishing unceasing activity in the universe? What is the wisdom in it? Why do these fleeting beings not stop, but are continuously changed and renewed?

No, the point is that it will all cease. The question is why create a universe that will eventually reach maximum entropy? And then what is his plan?

The Answer:Toexplainthewisdominthiswouldrequireathousand pages. So we shall leave aside a full explanation and condense in two pages an extremely brief summary of it.
If a person performs a natural function or social duty enthusiastically, anyone who observes him carefully will certainly understand that there are two things that make him act in this way:
The First are the benefits, fruits, and advantages resulting from the duty, which are called the ultimate cause.
The Second: Such things as love, desire, and pleasure cause him to perform the duty enthusiastically, and these are called the necessitating cause and reason.
For example, eating food; the pleasurable longing arising from appetite drive a person to eat, and afterwards, the result of eating is nourishing the body and perpetuating life. In the same way, "And God"s is the highest similitude,"(16:60) based on two sorts of divine names, the awesome and astonishing endless activity in the universe occurs for two vast instances of wisdom, each of which is also infinite:
The First: Almighty God"s Most Beautiful Names have incalculable sorts of manifestations. The variety in creatures arises from the variety of the manifestations. The names require to be manifested in a permanent fashion; that is, they want to display their embroideries; that is, they want to see and display the manifestations of their beauties in the mirrors of their embroideries; that is, they want every instant to renew the book of the universe and missives of beings; that is, they necessitate the continuous meaningful writing, and to display each missive to the attentive gaze of the Most Pure and Holy Essence, the One signified, as well as to all conscious beings; they require to make each of the missives read.
The Second Reason and Instance of Wisdom: Just as the activity of creatures arises from appetite, desire, and pleasure, and there is a definite pleasure in all activity; indeed, all activity is a sort of pleasure; so too, in a suitable way and form appropriate to His essential self-sufficiency and absolute riches and in a manner fitting for His absolute perfection, the Necessarily Existent One has boundless sacred compassion and infinite holy love. And He feels a boundless sacred ardour arising from that sacred compassion and holy love, and an endless holy joy arising from that sacred ardour, and, if one may say so, an infinite sacred pleasure arising from the sacred joy. And pertaining to that Merciful and Compassionate One, is, if the term is permissible, a boundless sacred gratification and infinite holy pride arising from the boundless feeling of compassion that springs from the sacred pleasure, sacred gratification and pride which arise from the gratitude and perfections of creatures which result from their abilities emerging from the potential to the actual and their developing within the activity of power. It is these which necessitate in boundless fashion, an endless activity.
Because philosophy, science, and natural philosophy do not know this subtle instance of wisdom, they have confused unconscious nature, blind chance, and lifeless causes in this utterly knowing, wise, percipient activity, and falling into the darkness of misguidance, have been unable to find the light of reality.
Say, "God [sent it down];" then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.(6:91)
O our Sustainer! Do not cause our hearts to swerve now that You have guided us, and bestow mercy upon us from Yourself; indeed, You are the Bestower of Gifts.(3:8)
O God! Grant blessings and peace to the Solver of the talisman of Your universe to the number of atoms of beings, and to his Family and Companions, so long as the earth and the heavens persist.
The Eternal One, He is the Eternal One!
Said Nursi
To believe is to know nothing.
Looncall
Posts: 438
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4/20/2016 10:11:09 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 9:07:40 PM, Osman35 wrote:
THIRD MATTER
An important matter that has not been solved by philosophy and reason.
Every day in [new] splendour does He [shine]!(55:29) * Indeed, your
Sustainer is Doer of what He will.(11:107; 85:16)
Q u e s t i o n : What is the reason for the astonishing unceasing activity in the universe? What is the wisdom in it? Why do these fleeting beings not stop, but are continuously changed and renewed?
The Answer:Toexplainthewisdominthiswouldrequireathousand pages. So we shall leave aside a full explanation and condense in two pages an extremely brief summary of it.
If a person performs a natural function or social duty enthusiastically, anyone who observes him carefully will certainly understand that there are two things that make him act in this way:
The First are the benefits, fruits, and advantages resulting from the duty, which are called the ultimate cause.
The Second: Such things as love, desire, and pleasure cause him to perform the duty enthusiastically, and these are called the necessitating cause and reason.
For example, eating food; the pleasurable longing arising from appetite drive a person to eat, and afterwards, the result of eating is nourishing the body and perpetuating life. In the same way, "And God"s is the highest similitude,"(16:60) based on two sorts of divine names, the awesome and astonishing endless activity in the universe occurs for two vast instances of wisdom, each of which is also infinite:
The First: Almighty God"s Most Beautiful Names have incalculable sorts of manifestations. The variety in creatures arises from the variety of the manifestations. The names require to be manifested in a permanent fashion; that is, they want to display their embroideries; that is, they want to see and display the manifestations of their beauties in the mirrors of their embroideries; that is, they want every instant to renew the book of the universe and missives of beings; that is, they necessitate the continuous meaningful writing, and to display each missive to the attentive gaze of the Most Pure and Holy Essence, the One signified, as well as to all conscious beings; they require to make each of the missives read.
The Second Reason and Instance of Wisdom: Just as the activity of creatures arises from appetite, desire, and pleasure, and there is a definite pleasure in all activity; indeed, all activity is a sort of pleasure; so too, in a suitable way and form appropriate to His essential self-sufficiency and absolute riches and in a manner fitting for His absolute perfection, the Necessarily Existent One has boundless sacred compassion and infinite holy love. And He feels a boundless sacred ardour arising from that sacred compassion and holy love, and an endless holy joy arising from that sacred ardour, and, if one may say so, an infinite sacred pleasure arising from the sacred joy. And pertaining to that Merciful and Compassionate One, is, if the term is permissible, a boundless sacred gratification and infinite holy pride arising from the boundless feeling of compassion that springs from the sacred pleasure, sacred gratification and pride which arise from the gratitude and perfections of creatures which result from their abilities emerging from the potential to the actual and their developing within the activity of power. It is these which necessitate in boundless fashion, an endless activity.
Because philosophy, science, and natural philosophy do not know this subtle instance of wisdom, they have confused unconscious nature, blind chance, and lifeless causes in this utterly knowing, wise, percipient activity, and falling into the darkness of misguidance, have been unable to find the light of reality.
Say, "God [sent it down];" then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.(6:91)
O our Sustainer! Do not cause our hearts to swerve now that You have guided us, and bestow mercy upon us from Yourself; indeed, You are the Bestower of Gifts.(3:8)
O God! Grant blessings and peace to the Solver of the talisman of Your universe to the number of atoms of beings, and to his Family and Companions, so long as the earth and the heavens persist.
The Eternal One, He is the Eternal One!
Said Nursi

If this is an example of muslim scholarship, one need not wonder why muslim societies are so backward.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?
Osman35
Posts: 52
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4/20/2016 11:07:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
A Decisive Answer to an Important Question
One group of the people of misguidance says that the being who changes and transforms the universe with this constant activity must himself be subject to change and alteration.
T h e A n s w e r : God forbid! A hundred thousand times, God forbid! The fact that mirrors on the ground change demonstrates not that the sun in the sky changes, but on the contrary that its manifestations are being renewed. Moreover, change and alteration are impossible in the Most Pure and Holy Essence, who is pre-eternal, post-eternal, sempiternal, in every respect absolutely perfect and absolutely self-sufficient, totally free of, detached from, and beyond matter, space, restriction, and contingency. Change in the universe points to his lack of change and alteration, not to His changing. For one who causes constant change and causes numerous things to move must himself be unchanging and not move.

For example, if you spin a large number of globes and balls which have each been tied to a piece of string and cause them all to move unceasingly within an order, you have to remain in one place and not change or move, for if you did, it would spoil the order. It is clear that one who causes objects to move within an order must himself not move, and one who causes objects to change ceaselessly must himself be unchanging so that these actions may continue in an orderly fashion.
Secondly: Change and alteration arise from createdness, from being renewed in order to be perfected, from need, materiality, and contingency. Since the Most Pure and Holy Essence is both eternal, and in every respect absolutely perfect and absolutely self-sufficient, and totally detached from matter, and necessarily existent, most certainly His changing and altering is not possible; it is impossible.
...from the risale-i nur collection
...source: risale-i nur collection
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/20/2016 11:18:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

It's not entropy alone that causes heat death. It's also an expanding universe. A thermodynamic equilibrium closed system could take on the form of a pump like action. Expansion due to entropy, collapse, and the cycle repeats.

But I'm not sure what you are asking?

I don't have the mind of God. I can only speculate as to why he does anything. Entropy looks to be a key component of Time. That Quantum entanglement is responsible for entropy.

I don't see how entropy is a bad thing, or a mistake in creation.

as far as what will God do after this universe dies, I don't know.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/20/2016 11:20:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 9:54:43 PM, Impartial wrote:
At 4/20/2016 9:07:40 PM, Osman35 wrote:
THIRD MATTER
An important matter that has not been solved by philosophy and reason.
Every day in [new] splendour does He [shine]!(55:29) * Indeed, your
Sustainer is Doer of what He will.(11:107; 85:16)
Q u e s t i o n : What is the reason for the astonishing unceasing activity in the universe? What is the wisdom in it? Why do these fleeting beings not stop, but are continuously changed and renewed?

No, the point is that it will all cease. The question is why create a universe that will eventually reach maximum entropy? And then what is his plan?

Well his plan was to create a universe and enjoy companionship with free willed beings. Nothing lasts forever. I'm okay with that. What God does afterwards I don't know.


The Answer:Toexplainthewisdominthiswouldrequireathousand pages. So we shall leave aside a full explanation and condense in two pages an extremely brief summary of it.
If a person performs a natural function or social duty enthusiastically, anyone who observes him carefully will certainly understand that there are two things that make him act in this way:
The First are the benefits, fruits, and advantages resulting from the duty, which are called the ultimate cause.
The Second: Such things as love, desire, and pleasure cause him to perform the duty enthusiastically, and these are called the necessitating cause and reason.
For example, eating food; the pleasurable longing arising from appetite drive a person to eat, and afterwards, the result of eating is nourishing the body and perpetuating life. In the same way, "And God"s is the highest similitude,"(16:60) based on two sorts of divine names, the awesome and astonishing endless activity in the universe occurs for two vast instances of wisdom, each of which is also infinite:
The First: Almighty God"s Most Beautiful Names have incalculable sorts of manifestations. The variety in creatures arises from the variety of the manifestations. The names require to be manifested in a permanent fashion; that is, they want to display their embroideries; that is, they want to see and display the manifestations of their beauties in the mirrors of their embroideries; that is, they want every instant to renew the book of the universe and missives of beings; that is, they necessitate the continuous meaningful writing, and to display each missive to the attentive gaze of the Most Pure and Holy Essence, the One signified, as well as to all conscious beings; they require to make each of the missives read.
The Second Reason and Instance of Wisdom: Just as the activity of creatures arises from appetite, desire, and pleasure, and there is a definite pleasure in all activity; indeed, all activity is a sort of pleasure; so too, in a suitable way and form appropriate to His essential self-sufficiency and absolute riches and in a manner fitting for His absolute perfection, the Necessarily Existent One has boundless sacred compassion and infinite holy love. And He feels a boundless sacred ardour arising from that sacred compassion and holy love, and an endless holy joy arising from that sacred ardour, and, if one may say so, an infinite sacred pleasure arising from the sacred joy. And pertaining to that Merciful and Compassionate One, is, if the term is permissible, a boundless sacred gratification and infinite holy pride arising from the boundless feeling of compassion that springs from the sacred pleasure, sacred gratification and pride which arise from the gratitude and perfections of creatures which result from their abilities emerging from the potential to the actual and their developing within the activity of power. It is these which necessitate in boundless fashion, an endless activity.
Because philosophy, science, and natural philosophy do not know this subtle instance of wisdom, they have confused unconscious nature, blind chance, and lifeless causes in this utterly knowing, wise, percipient activity, and falling into the darkness of misguidance, have been unable to find the light of reality.
Say, "God [sent it down];" then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.(6:91)
O our Sustainer! Do not cause our hearts to swerve now that You have guided us, and bestow mercy upon us from Yourself; indeed, You are the Bestower of Gifts.(3:8)
O God! Grant blessings and peace to the Solver of the talisman of Your universe to the number of atoms of beings, and to his Family and Companions, so long as the earth and the heavens persist.
The Eternal One, He is the Eternal One!
Said Nursi
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/20/2016 11:27:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

Plus this question is meaningless.

If entropy is related to the passage of time, heat death would be the end of time. That as the universe expands it slows time down. To a halt.
https://www.newscientist.com...

And without time you can't ask what God would do afterwards. There would be no "afterwards". As an Atheist who has used the "no time to create the universe in" argument before, you should know this.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/21/2016 12:15:15 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 11:27:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

Plus this question is meaningless.

If entropy is related to the passage of time, heat death would be the end of time. That as the universe expands it slows time down. To a halt.
https://www.newscientist.com...

This is speculation only, not accepted science.

And without time you can't ask what God would do afterwards. There would be no "afterwards". As an Atheist who has used the "no time to create the universe in" argument before, you should know this.

Premised on the string theory-based speculation above. You can't reach a firm conclusion when you have started with conjecture.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/21/2016 12:27:23 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 12:15:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 11:27:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

Plus this question is meaningless.

If entropy is related to the passage of time, heat death would be the end of time. That as the universe expands it slows time down. To a halt.
https://www.newscientist.com...

This is speculation only, not accepted science.

Well it is accepted Science. Is is not accepted fact.

And I began with the preposition "If"


And without time you can't ask what God would do afterwards. There would be no "afterwards". As an Atheist who has used the "no time to create the universe in" argument before, you should know this.

Premised on the string theory-based speculation above. You can't reach a firm conclusion when you have started with conjecture.

Concede. I make the same argument to atheist who espouse Quantum gravity as an explanation.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/21/2016 1:10:30 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

So the answer is religious dogma. Alleged 'sin' by ape-like creatures on a tiny speck of dust in an unimaginably vast cosmos caused the entire universe to expand and decay via entropy. (Disregarding that the universe had been expanding and undergoing entropic change for 13.7 billion years before these ape-like animals even evolved). Yeah.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.

I'm happy that the eventual heat death of the universe proves a beginning (somehow) and that this depressing fate for all existence as we know it consoles you. Each to his own, I guess. I would have preferred an eternal universe myself.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/21/2016 2:31:16 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 1:10:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

So the answer is religious dogma. Alleged 'sin' by ape-like creatures on a tiny speck of dust in an unimaginably vast cosmos caused the entire universe to expand and decay via entropy. (Disregarding that the universe had been expanding and undergoing entropic change for 13.7 billion years before these ape-like animals even evolved). Yeah.

Not what I said exactly...but whatever.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.

I'm happy that the eventual heat death of the universe proves a beginning (somehow) and that this depressing fate for all existence as we know it consoles you. Each to his own, I guess. I would have preferred an eternal universe myself.

A beginning shows that the universe has a cause. That cause would have to be God (another discussion) which means that life would have meaning.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/21/2016 6:12:18 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 2:31:16 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 1:10:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

So the answer is religious dogma. Alleged 'sin' by ape-like creatures on a tiny speck of dust in an unimaginably vast cosmos caused the entire universe to expand and decay via entropy. (Disregarding that the universe had been expanding and undergoing entropic change for 13.7 billion years before these ape-like animals even evolved). Yeah.

Not what I said exactly...but whatever.

It most certainly is ... but whatever.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.

I'm happy that the eventual heat death of the universe proves a beginning (somehow) and that this depressing fate for all existence as we know it consoles you. Each to his own, I guess. I would have preferred an eternal universe myself.

A beginning shows that the universe has a cause.

You haven't established a beginning but even of you had, causation requires time and time is a property of the universe. You can't invoke time, and causation, to explain the origin of the universe.

That cause would have to be God (another discussion) which means that life would have meaning.

Two non sequiturs in a row. Nice going. Lol.
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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4/21/2016 10:49:35 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 6:12:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 2:31:16 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 1:10:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

So the answer is religious dogma. Alleged 'sin' by ape-like creatures on a tiny speck of dust in an unimaginably vast cosmos caused the entire universe to expand and decay via entropy. (Disregarding that the universe had been expanding and undergoing entropic change for 13.7 billion years before these ape-like animals even evolved). Yeah.

Not what I said exactly...but whatever.

It most certainly is ... but whatever.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.

I'm happy that the eventual heat death of the universe proves a beginning (somehow) and that this depressing fate for all existence as we know it consoles you. Each to his own, I guess. I would have preferred an eternal universe myself.

A beginning shows that the universe has a cause.

You haven't established a beginning but even of you had, causation requires time and time is a property of the universe. You can't invoke time, and causation, to explain the origin of the universe.

You acknowledge that the universe is going to end. That proves that the universe is not eternal and hence had a beginning.

As for causation, that is a bare assertion on your part. No dictionary would say that causation requires time in all cases.

That cause would have to be God (another discussion) which means that life would have meaning.

Two non sequiturs in a row. Nice going. Lol.
dee-em
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4/21/2016 1:12:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:49:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 6:12:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 2:31:16 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 1:10:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:45:13 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 12:20:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/20/2016 10:59:36 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 4/20/2016 8:06:54 PM, Impartial wrote:
Why would a creator of the universe invent entropy and what will he do after the inevitable heat death of his masterpiece and why?

That is a good question. But couldn't you say the same thing about anything that could kill/end something he created?

Why would he create a universe which could be "killed/ended"? You are avoiding the question. Remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being.

I think it is a strange question...but the answer is that the universe was originally created perfect but due to the fall the universe is tainted by sin and hence will go to destruction like everything else.

So the answer is religious dogma. Alleged 'sin' by ape-like creatures on a tiny speck of dust in an unimaginably vast cosmos caused the entire universe to expand and decay via entropy. (Disregarding that the universe had been expanding and undergoing entropic change for 13.7 billion years before these ape-like animals even evolved). Yeah.

Not what I said exactly...but whatever.

It most certainly is ... but whatever.

Although, I am glad in a sense that this is the case since it proves that the universe had a beginning.

I'm happy that the eventual heat death of the universe proves a beginning (somehow) and that this depressing fate for all existence as we know it consoles you. Each to his own, I guess. I would have preferred an eternal universe myself.

A beginning shows that the universe has a cause.

You haven't established a beginning but even of you had, causation requires time and time is a property of the universe. You can't invoke time, and causation, to explain the origin of the universe.

You acknowledge that the universe is going to end.

No I don't. The heat death of the universe does not necessarily mean the end of time. It just means that the universe will go dark and cold once all the hydrogen is used up and the very last star in the last galaxy goes nova or supernova. The accelerating expansion of the universe on the other hand may end everything but that is only speculation at this point.

That proves that the universe is not eternal and hence had a beginning.

Non sequitur. How does an ending (if true) prove a beginning?

As for causation, that is a bare assertion on your part. No dictionary would say that causation requires time in all cases.

Do you mean you can have an effect without a cause? Lol.

causation
noun
the action of causing something.
"the postulated role of nitrate in the causation of cancer"
the relationship between cause and effect; causality.
plural noun: causations
"a strong association is not a proof of causation"


Please explain how you can have an action (an event) without time. You need to have a moment before the action and then a moment after it. A cause then an effect. The temporal nature of causality should be self-evident.

That cause would have to be God (another discussion) which means that life would have meaning.

Two non sequiturs in a row. Nice going. Lol.