Total Posts:74|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

5 reasons why the Burqa should be banned

Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.

The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 7:59:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Chloe, thank you for a thoughtful and provocative position.

Could we talk about Muslim headwear for a moment?

Depending on custom, Muslim women may wear any or none of four head-garments:

1) The Niqab, which is a veil covering the head but not the eyes. It's usually worn with an abaya, that covers the body from head to feet.
2) The Hijab, a headscarf covering some or all of the hair, but not the face.
3) The Burqa, covering the entire body and face, with a mesh window or grill across the eyes, to see out of
4) The Chador, a full-length cloak closed at the front, but leaving the face visible
5) The Dupatta, a long scarf loosely draped across the head and shoulders, leaving the face visible.

Sample images are visible at: [http://www.abc.net.au...]

It strikes me that your objections may apply to any or all of these garments, in that:
1) Signs of abuse can be to specific parts of the body, concealed by anything more extensive than a bikini;
2) Any of these garments could be used to justify physical and sexual assaults if you don't wear them;
3) Any of these garments can be argued to dehumanise by marking the wearer as 'off limits' for civic participation
4) All such clothing, to the extent that it creates taboos, creates discrimination
5) All such wearing can be enforced through violence.

So, which cultural garments do you feel should be covered by this ban, which exempted, and why? Also, what is your position on veils for Christian nuns, and bridal veils? Finally, should all female citizens be required to publicly wear a bikini every few weeks to ensure that they are not failing to report physical abuse?
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 8:36:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 7:59:05 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Chloe, thank you for a thoughtful and provocative position.

Could we talk about Muslim headwear for a moment?

Depending on custom, Muslim women may wear any or none of four head-garments:

1) The Niqab, which is a veil covering the head but not the eyes. It's usually worn with an abaya, that covers the body from head to feet.
2) The Hijab, a headscarf covering some or all of the hair, but not the face.
3) The Burqa, covering the entire body and face, with a mesh window or grill across the eyes, to see out of
4) The Chador, a full-length cloak closed at the front, but leaving the face visible
5) The Dupatta, a long scarf loosely draped across the head and shoulders, leaving the face visible.

Sample images are visible at: [http://www.abc.net.au...]

It strikes me that your objections may apply to any or all of these garments, in that:
1) Signs of abuse can be to specific parts of the body, concealed by anything more extensive than a bikini;
2) Any of these garments could be used to justify physical and sexual assaults if you don't wear them;
3) Any of these garments can be argued to dehumanise by marking the wearer as 'off limits' for civic participation
4) All such clothing, to the extent that it creates taboos, creates discrimination
5) All such wearing can be enforced through violence.

So, which cultural garments do you feel should be covered by this ban, which exempted, and why? Also, what is your position on veils for Christian nuns, and bridal veils? Finally, should all female citizens be required to publicly wear a bikini every few weeks to ensure that they are not failing to report physical abuse?

Obviously no one should be forced to wear a bikini in public. I oppose oppression and discrimination being justified on religious grounds. It is my opinion that these 5 traditional garments are traditional because of Islam. I don't see a practical need for any of them but have to respect the rights of women to wear what they want to an extent to avoid contradicting my own values.

Even though I am tempted to advocate banning the Chador I would only impose bans on the burqa and the niqab. I think the point it becomes unacceptable is when a woman's face is covered by the garment.

You make some good points but I think my points are still valid because if you cannot even see someone's face you cannot pick up signs they are unhappy/ being abused simply by looking at their facial expression. Obviously the more someone covers up the more signs of abuse can be concealed. Face coverage is not practiced by Muslim men or expected of them so is also extremely sexist. It is used by men to control and dominate women, reducing them to second class citizens.

What is your opinion on these garments? Would you advocate banning any of them?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 8:47:16 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

The incidence of rape in nudist colonies are almost nonexistent. Women can see approaching danger at the sight of a man's unsolicited erection. And then again women might find the sight of a man's erection flattering. Rape should be seen as the ultimate flattery that a man would risk going to jail just to flatter a woman whom he finds so desirous that he expresses it in the only way he knows and which also visibly shows.

But knowing women and they unpredictable reactions to flattery the Burqa reduces the men's desire to impress and women are not insulted if they are ignored. It is a win win for all.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:06:10 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 8:47:16 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

The incidence of rape in nudist colonies are almost nonexistent. Women can see approaching danger at the sight of a man's unsolicited erection. And then again women might find the sight of a man's erection flattering. Rape should be seen as the ultimate flattery that a man would risk going to jail just to flatter a woman whom he finds so desirous that he expresses it in the only way he knows and which also visibly shows.

But knowing women and they unpredictable reactions to flattery the Burqa reduces the men's desire to impress and women are not insulted if they are ignored. It is a win win for all.

What absolute nonsense. It is entirely predictable a woman will respond negatively when a man attacks and rapes her. Rape is an evil act. Rapists should receive the death penalty in cases of unprovoked attack. The perpetrator should be punished, not the victim. The burqa is a way of men punishing women for looking attractive. It's up to men to refrain from selfish immoral acts. Fortunately in my country rape is rare. Guess what? Hardly anyone here wares the burqa!

Do you actually think wearing the burqa should be encouraged?

What makes you think women deserve to be treated like second class citizens?

Would you like to wear
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:13:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 8:36:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:59:05 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Chloe, thank you for a thoughtful and provocative position.

Could we talk about Muslim headwear for a moment?

Depending on custom, Muslim women may wear any or none of four head-garments:

1) The Niqab, which is a veil covering the head but not the eyes. It's usually worn with an abaya, that covers the body from head to feet.
2) The Hijab, a headscarf covering some or all of the hair, but not the face.
3) The Burqa, covering the entire body and face, with a mesh window or grill across the eyes, to see out of
4) The Chador, a full-length cloak closed at the front, but leaving the face visible
5) The Dupatta, a long scarf loosely draped across the head and shoulders, leaving the face visible.

Sample images are visible at: [http://www.abc.net.au...]

Which cultural garments do you feel should be covered by this ban, which exempted, and why?

Obviously no one should be forced to wear a bikini in public. I oppose oppression and discrimination being justified on religious grounds. It is my opinion that these 5 traditional garments are traditional because of Islam. I don't see a practical need for any of them but have to respect the rights of women to wear what they want to an extent to avoid contradicting my own values.

As you may know, the Ancient Near East had many pre-Muslim religions, including Zoroastrianism and various polytheistic faiths. As you may also know, ancient Greece had few nudity taboos (Greeks used to exercise and compete naked), and were constantly commenting on the modesty and prudery of pre-Muslim Persia.

If it were discovered that historically, many of these garments pre-dated Islam, and were a cultural legacy that Islam canon enshrined, would that alter your views?

Even though I am tempted to advocate banning the Chador I would only impose bans on the burqa and the niqab. I think the point it becomes unacceptable is when a woman's face is covered by the garment.

But not motor-cycle helmets, surgical masks? So are there circumstances where a concealing cultural garment should be permitted in public? What about cultural celebrations? Block parties? Foreign dignitaries? Tourists?

You make some good points but I think my points are still valid because if you cannot even see someone's face you cannot pick up signs they are unhappy/ being abused simply by looking at their facial expression.
That is true. It seems like you've assumed there is routine physical abuse of Muslim women unless it can be proven that there is not. Have you some supporting data on that?

What is your opinion on these garments? Would you advocate banning any of them?
Short answer, no, except where legal procedure requires facial identification.

Longer answer: I'm a cautious multiculturalist. Multiculturalist because I believe if it works, it can produce a more resilient, just, compassionate, culturally and intellectually expressive society with more peace, better foreign relations and improved trade. Cautious because multiculturalism is only about forty years old, and I think the experiment needs to survive generations of vicissitudes and accumulate lessons learned before we know where it's strong, where it's fragile and how best to make it work.

I should also say that I distinguish multiculturalism from mere pluralism. A pluralist society admits people of many cultures and offers one law for all, but may be a 'melting pot' -- meaning that people from outside the culture are 'melted' into the cultural assimilation. Multiculturalism is a social order built on respect for diverse cultures, and support for their continuance as a right of nationhood. It's harder to build and sustain than pluralism alone, and the countries who have most embraced it are arguably India, Canada, and Australia.

Your argument for banning facial concealment seems to me an argument for pre-emptive justice. I hold that justice can only be based on mutual respect. However, I'm not persuaded that presuming an action cruel, oppressive and enforced by violence unless proven otherwise, is itself respectful or just -- especially in a vulnerable minority culture about which one knows oneself to be largely ignorant.

I'd like to see some mechanisms showing how Muslim women come to choose to wear one garment or another, some data on the relative rates of abuse among Muslim vs non-Muslim women (I believe domestic abuse rates are appalling over-all, and am concerned at scapegoating Muslims in a much broader problem), and I'd want to see both mechanisms and correlation of traditional garments and domestic abuse before I'd accept the presumption of significant risk.

In the meantime, as an Australian, I'm very familiar with Hijabs, Chadors and Dupattas, and see the occasional Niqab. None of them bother me, and I don't feel any of them should. Instinctively I support a person's right to privacy in public, and there are days when I wish I had a burqa myself, just to deter shopping-mall panhandlers, charity collectors and political buttonholers from accosting me when I'm busy. :)

I hope that may be interesting. :)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:31:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:06:10 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 8:47:16 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

The incidence of rape in nudist colonies are almost nonexistent. Women can see approaching danger at the sight of a man's unsolicited erection. And then again women might find the sight of a man's erection flattering. Rape should be seen as the ultimate flattery that a man would risk going to jail just to flatter a woman whom he finds so desirous that he expresses it in the only way he knows and which also visibly shows.

But knowing women and they unpredictable reactions to flattery the Burqa reduces the men's desire to impress and women are not insulted if they are ignored. It is a win win for all.

What absolute nonsense. It is entirely predictable a woman will respond negatively when a man attacks and rapes her. Rape is an evil act. Rapists should receive the death penalty in cases of unprovoked attack. The perpetrator should be punished, not the victim. The burqa is a way of men punishing women for looking attractive. It's up to men to refrain from selfish immoral acts. Fortunately in my country rape is rare. Guess what? Hardly anyone here wares the burqa!

That simply proves Muslims women are so desirable that even when they are fully covered wearing a Burqa they are still more attractive than women in your country who could be running around half naked and no men paying any attention to them, much less finding motivation to rape them.

It is more a punishment to force women in your country through social norms to show their ugly bodies than for Muslim women to hide their beautiful bodies in a Burqa. I would pick the latter.
Of course you could change my mind, but I haven't seen anything yet that would.

Do you actually think wearing the burqa should be encouraged?

What makes you think women deserve to be treated like second class citizens?

Would you like to wear
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:39:44 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:13:35 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/21/2016 8:36:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:59:05 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Chloe, thank you for a thoughtful and provocative position.

Could we talk about Muslim headwear for a moment?

Depending on custom, Muslim women may wear any or none of four head-garments:

1) The Niqab, which is a veil covering the head but not the eyes. It's usually worn with an abaya, that covers the body from head to feet.
2) The Hijab, a headscarf covering some or all of the hair, but not the face.
3) The Burqa, covering the entire body and face, with a mesh window or grill across the eyes, to see out of
4) The Chador, a full-length cloak closed at the front, but leaving the face visible
5) The Dupatta, a long scarf loosely draped across the head and shoulders, leaving the face visible.

Sample images are visible at: [http://www.abc.net.au...]

Which cultural garments do you feel should be covered by this ban, which exempted, and why?

Obviously no one should be forced to wear a bikini in public. I oppose oppression and discrimination being justified on religious grounds. It is my opinion that these 5 traditional garments are traditional because of Islam. I don't see a practical need for any of them but have to respect the rights of women to wear what they want to an extent to avoid contradicting my own values.

As you may know, the Ancient Near East had many pre-Muslim religions, including Zoroastrianism and various polytheistic faiths. As you may also know, ancient Greece had few nudity taboos (Greeks used to exercise and compete naked), and were constantly commenting on the modesty and prudery of pre-Muslim Persia.

If it were discovered that historically, many of these garments pre-dated Islam, and were a cultural legacy that Islam canon enshrined, would that alter your views?

To be honest it would not. Islam uses the burqa to suppress women and render them second class citizens. Whether it invented to burqa (which I consider likely ) or adopted it from previous cultures is irrelevant. In my opinion many of the women who wear a burqa are either pressurized into doing so or are brainwashed into doing so. Receiving a poor level of education and only hearing the lies of the false religion of Islam leads them into making decisions that significantly hinder their quality of life. Ideally these women would choose not to wear a burqa after realizing Islam is false but many people are blinded by religious dogma and it is sometimes neccessary to help someone when they can't help themselves.

Even though I am tempted to advocate banning the Chador I would only impose bans on the burqa and the niqab. I think the point it becomes unacceptable is when a woman's face is covered by the garment.

But not motor-cycle helmets, surgical masks? So are there circumstances where a concealing cultural garment should be permitted in public? What about cultural celebrations? Block parties? Foreign dignitaries? Tourists?

Yes I would allow exceptions. The things you mention have a purpose. The purpose of the burqa is Islamic men controlling Islamic women. I oppose religions having a negative effect on the lives of ordinary people.

You make some good points but I think my points are still valid because if you cannot even see someone's face you cannot pick up signs they are unhappy/ being abused simply by looking at their facial expression.
That is true. It seems like you've assumed there is routine physical abuse of Muslim women unless it can be proven that there is not. Have you some supporting data on that?

I don't claim burqa wearing women are being abused unless it can be proved otherwise. I'm claiming long term abuse is sometimes literally hidden behind the veil.

What is your opinion on these garments? Would you advocate banning any of them?
Short answer, no, except where legal procedure requires facial identification.

Fair enough. Would you encourage its demise through secular learning or do you value it's cultural value?

Longer answer: I'm a cautious multiculturalist. Multiculturalist because I believe if it works, it can produce a more resilient, just, compassionate, culturally and intellectually expressive society with more peace, better foreign relations and improved trade. Cautious because multiculturalism is only about forty years old, and I think the experiment needs to survive generations of vicissitudes and accumulate lessons learned before we know where it's strong, where it's fragile and how best to make it work.

I should also say that I distinguish multiculturalism from mere pluralism. A pluralist society admits people of many cultures and offers one law for all, but may be a 'melting pot' -- meaning that people from outside the culture are 'melted' into the cultural assimilation. Multiculturalism is a social order built on respect for diverse cultures, and support for their continuance as a right of nationhood. It's harder to build and sustain than pluralism alone, and the countries who have most embraced it are arguably India, Canada, and Australia.

Your argument for banning facial concealment seems to me an argument for pre-emptive justice. I hold that justice can only be based on mutual respect. However, I'm not persuaded that presuming an action cruel, oppressive and enforced by violence unless proven otherwise, is itself respectful or just -- especially in a vulnerable minority culture about which one knows oneself to be largely ignorant.

I'd like to see some mechanisms showing how Muslim women come to choose to wear one garment or another, some data on the relative rates of abuse among Muslim vs non-Muslim women (I believe domestic abuse rates are appalling over-all, and am concerned at scapegoating Muslims in a much broader problem), and I'd want to see both mechanisms and correlation of traditional garments and domestic abuse before I'd accept the presumption of significant risk.

In the meantime, as an Australian, I'm very familiar with Hijabs, Chadors and Dupattas, and see the occasional Niqab. None of them bother me, and I don't feel any of them should. Instinctively I support a person's right to privacy in public, and there are days when I wish I had a burqa myself, just to deter shopping-mall panhandlers, charity collectors and political buttonholers from accosting me when I'm busy. :)

I hope that may be interesting. :)

My opposition to the burqa is mainly based on its extremely sexist nature and the fact women wear it because of their religious beliefs or pressure from male relatives. The burqa holds women back and allows men to control their lives. I oppose the thought a burqa is needed for a woman to feel safe in public.

I'm a nationalist who generally opposes multiculturalism. I believe society works better when there is less cause for conflict and division. I believe migration should be selective and controlled to allow migrants to fit in with existing culture as opposed to creating segregated cultural minorities living within rather than with the cultural majority.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:50:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:31:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:06:10 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/21/2016 8:47:16 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion olitical freedoms.

The incidence of rape in nudist colonies are almost nonexistent. Women can see approaching danger at the sight of a man's unsolicited erection. And then again women might find the sight of a man's erection flattering. Rape should be seen as the ultimate flattery that a man would risk going to jail just to flatter a woman whom he finds so desirous that he expresses it in the only way he knows and which also visibly shows.

But knowing women and they unpredictable reactions to flattery the Burqa reduces the men's desire to impress and women are not insulted if they are ignored. It is a win win for all.

What absolute nonsense. It is entirely predictable a woman will respond negatively when a man attacks and rapes her. Rape is an evil act. Rapists should receive the death penalty in cases of unprovoked attack. The perpetrator should be punished, not the victim. The burqa is a way of men punishing women for looking attractive. It's up to men to refrain from selfish immoral acts. Fortunately in my country rape is rare. Guess what? Hardly anyone here wares the burqa!

That simply proves Muslims women are so desirable that even when they are fully covered wearing a Burqa they are still more attractive than women in your country who could be running around half naked and no men paying any attention to them, much less finding motivation to rape them.

You are looking at it from a man's perspective. In your ignorance, trying to insult me has actually proved my point. Think of it from a woman's perspective. Would you like to wear a burqa? This is not about whether men find you attractive or not its about your rights to freedom and equality. Women are much more than the objects to be desired by men as you appear to believe.

It is more a punishment to force women in your country through social norms to show their ugly bodies than for Muslim women to hide their beautiful bodies in a Burqa. I would pick the latter.
Of course you could change my mind, but I haven't seen anything yet that would.

No one here is pressured into wearing anything. Incidentally I also find by wearing skimpy clothing some women objectify themselves.

Do you actually think wearing the burqa should be encouraged?

What makes you think women deserve to be treated like second class citizens?

Would you like to wear
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...
Athomos
Posts: 401
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:15:55 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.

The Burqa also exposes women to blackmail and intimidation when they deviate from the standard of full body covering. There is a rising number of cases in which women and girls who posted Facebook pictures of themselves in normal clothes have been blackmailed and threatened for it.

As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...

So because Islam is demonstrably sexist, Christianity cannot possibly be as sexist, or at least merely slightly less sexist, and it should be off the hook?

Spectacular logic.

It's becoming increasingly clear why you don't accept Evolution. Clearly, the problem is not with the body of knowledge itself.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:21:10 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:15:55 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)



I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...

So because Islam is demonstrably sexist, Christianity cannot possibly be as sexist, or at least merely slightly less sexist, and it should be off the hook?

Spectacular logic.

It's becom

I have seen chloe and others claim that the bible is sexist, yet I have never seen anyone claim islam is sexist, I have never seen the feminist movement do anything to help their sisters in bondage, no big meetings, no tv adverts, no calls to the islamic rulers to level the playing field for the women in islam...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

It makes it kinda tough.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:21:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.

If radicals are prevented from making public statements about the inferiority of races, why should they be permitted to assert the inferiority of a gender.

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other," the Koran asserts. Replace "women" with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.

Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)

In 2003 a French survey found that 77 percent of girls who wore the Hijab did so because of threats. Women in the Muslim world have been punished by having acid thrown in their faces for not complying with similar demands. There is no way to break through this climate of coercion except by giving women and girls immunity from such demands by banning the source of it. The Burqa.


As long as the Burqa remains a threat hanging over the heads of Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, no woman in Europe can truly be free from its implied threat to her person and her political freedoms.

I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...

But there is no evidence to support your claim when it doesn't appear to affect the Muslim women who are wearing the Burqa nor the men who marry them. The men like their women in Burqas so much they are allowed to marry 4 of them.
Western women might be misdirecting their anger at the Burqa because it appears to give Muslim women an advantage. The growing rate of single women in the west just proves their scanty dressed women do not attract men who will marry them.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:27:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:21:33 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to do in their own homes"the public wearing of the Burqa is a statement that women are unequal and must be segregated.

Such an attitude is an assault on the legal place of women in society. It imposes the norms of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the streets of Paris and London. Like a Klan march, it a dehumanizing and intimidating statement of bigotry against a segment of society. While in the United States, such marches are legal, in much of Europe they are not.



I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...

But there is no evidence to support your claim when it doesn't appear to affect the Muslim women who are wearing the Burqa nor the men who marry them. The men like their women in Burqas so much they are allowed to marry 4 of them.
Western women might be misdirecting their anger at the Burqa because it appears to give Muslim women an advantage. The growing rate of single women in the west just proves their scanty dressed women do not attract men who will marry them.

the fact the men still marry them does not make the burqa's right, men would buy slaves to marry in chains, should all women be in chains???

they have to wear the garment, they have no choice so men have to choose women in them??

the treatment of women under islam is appalling it can be seen quite clearly..
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:49:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

It makes it kinda tough.

More Muslim women end up getting married than western women. Sounds like a success story compared to the number of single women in the west who will end up as spinsters wearing less and being loved less.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 10:55:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:49:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

It makes it kinda tough.

More Muslim women end up getting married than western women. Sounds like a success story compared to the number of single women in the west who will end up as spinsters wearing less and being loved less.

You judge the sole empirical measurement of success as being married - whether it is a love filled marriage or not. The fact that the west is suffering due to its abandonment of its tradition ethical framework does not immediate mean that the Islamic system is just and positive for women.

Additionally you completely failed to address my argument.
random_noob
Posts: 21
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 11:11:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:49:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
More Muslim women end up getting married than western women. Sounds like a success story compared to the number of single women in the west who will end up as spinsters wearing less and being loved less.

Sounds like a huge success to find a husband, if he's allowed to mary 10 women at the same time. What a privilege...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 11:16:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

There would be no need for shelters for battered women in the west if the problem was solely a Muslim problem.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

How is that any different from interracial couples being denied the right to marry in America or being refused marriage licenses?

Here is is more serious because there is a religious conflict at play. Religion is more than skin deep.

It makes it kinda tough.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 11:23:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 11:16:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

There would be no need for shelters for battered women in the west if the problem was solely a Muslim problem.

There are no shelters for Muslim women because Islam says the men have an unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

The fact that we have shelters is proof that the West realizes that this premise is false.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

How is that any different from interracial couples being denied the right to marry in America or being refused marriage licenses?

One is racism, the other is a supposed divine mandate. It isn't a success of choice, it is a mandate of force.

Here is is more serious because there is a religious conflict at play. Religion is more than skin deep.

So don't pretend that it is some magnificent choice of Muslim women. The have no choice, and if they choose to leave Islam they can be beaten and even killed.

It just shows that Islam is a coercive religion and not one of free will.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 11:31:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:21:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 10:15:55 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:59:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

In cases of domestic abuse, the Burqa doesn"t just isolate the woman, it also covers up evidence of the abuse. It gives the abuser the freedom to brutalize his partner without worrying that anyone will even notice.

This is an especially vital issue in Europe, where spousal abuse is a serious crime, and the abuser has more motivation than ever to cover it up. The Burqa successfully isolates abuse victims, cuts them off from any prospective support networks and prevents anyone on the outside from even realizing what is being done to them.

The Muslim community has been in denial about its rates of domestic abuse. The Burqa is one reason why. It"s easier not to see abused women, when they are segregated and the marks of their abuse are kept out sight.

2. The Burqa Justifies Sexual Assault on Women Who Don"t Wear It

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, "If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred." By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don"t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.

The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested." (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be "molested" and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe"which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.

The Burqa divides women into "good girls" and "whores" and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.

Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

3. Civic Participation

The essence of a modern society is that it extends civic participation to everyone. Deliberately preventing an entire gender from participating in society as identifiable individuals is an assault on the democratic character of the state.

Individuals are recognizable through personal attributes. Remove those attributes and you remove the individuality as well. The Sahih Bukhari relates that one inspiration for the Burqa was that one of Mohammed"s followers was able to recognize one of his wives at night. The implication is that the Burqa is meant to prevent such recognition from taking place. Women are not meant to be recognized as individuals. Or to be empowered to make their own decisions.



The Burqa is designed to impede interaction outside the home. The failure to be recognized as an individual is dehumanizing and deprives women of their role in civic life.

Countries where the Burqa is in wide use, have low rates of female civic participation. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to vote. In parts of Pakistan, women are not allowed to vote as well. In Afghanistan women were shunted into female only polling stations, or forced to vote by proxy through a male family member.

The rise of such segregation in Europe would threaten the democratic character of the society. But should the Burqa become widespread, the status of some European women living in national capitals would begin to resemble those of Saudi and Pakistani women.

4. Segregation is Discrimination

Purdah segregates women at homes and the Burqa segregates them in public. While the authorities cannot interfere with what people choose to
5. The Wearing of the Burqa is Enforced Through Violence

"More often the girls were under orders from their fathers and uncles and brothers, and even their male classmates. For the boys, transforming a bluejeaned teen-age sister into a docile and observant "Muslim" virgin was a rite de passage into authority, the fast track to becoming a man, and more important, a Muslim man.... it was also a license for violence." (Jane Kramer, Taking the Veil, New Yorker)



I always wondered what happened to the feminist army when it comes to the burqa and islam, I assumed they were to busy burning bras and demanding equal wages...

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

i'm not saying anything about what it does for their looks, just the fact they have to be hidden and are 5th class citizens under islamic rules...

funny how chloe states the bible is sexist, islam is the worlds worst...

So because Islam is demonstrably sexist, Christianity cannot possibly be as sexist, or at least merely slightly less sexist, and it should be off the hook?

Spectacular logic.

It's becom

I have seen chloe and others claim that the bible is sexist, yet I have never seen anyone claim islam is sexist, I have never seen the feminist movement do anything to help their sisters in bondage, no big meetings, no tv adverts, no calls to the islamic rulers to level the playing field for the women in islam...

Well here I am criticising Islam. I agree feminist movements should do more but religion is a taboo subject and Many people are too politically correct to say what appears to be obvious. It's important to respect other cultures but simultaneously push for equality for women within those cultures. It is wrong for you or other Christians to claim Islamic sexism being worse than Christian sexism justifies Christian sexism. Being less bad is not an excuse for being bad. Religion is an area where sexist discrimination both flourishes and is permitted. Countries with lower levels of religion have much more equal societies when you view the world as a whole.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/21/2016 11:33:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

It makes it kinda tough.

Exactly. Well said! We agree on something!
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 12:00:31 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 11:23:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 11:16:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

There would be no need for shelters for battered women in the west if the problem was solely a Muslim problem.

There are no shelters for Muslim women because Islam says the men have an unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

The fact that we have shelters is proof that the West realizes that this premise is false.

The fact that the west has shelters for battered women is because it is also common in the west.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

How is that any different from interracial couples being denied the right to marry in America or being refused marriage licenses?

One is racism, the other is a supposed divine mandate. It isn't a success of choice, it is a mandate of force.

Slavery was justified based on Biblical grounds. It was tbe churches that refused interracial marriages.

Here is is more serious because there is a religious conflict at play. Religion is more than skin deep.

So don't pretend that it is some magnificent choice of Muslim women. The have no choice, and if they choose to leave Islam they can be beaten and even killed.

It just shows that Islam is a coercive religion and not one of free will.

If you look at the rate of abortions, unwanted children, single parents, promiscuity and declining family values, the alternative doesn't look that bad.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 12:56:48 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
It offends me to my core, but living in Canada, I am expected by the social engineers and far left apologists to accept without question, every sick cultural pracitce, because I might offend the practitioners and Canadians must be defined by every culture except that which is ours....lest we offend.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 2:27:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 10:49:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 10:21:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:56:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:45:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 4/21/2016 7:29:04 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
1. The Burqa Covers Up Abuse

Countries where the Burqa is commonly worn also have higher rates of domestic violence. In Afghanistan 87 percent of women reported experiencing domestic violence. In Pakistan that number goes as high as 90 percent. Domestic violence is also a major problem in Saudi Arabia.

Also husbands basically have unmitigated right to abuse their wives.

I don't think Muslim women feel any less womanly wearing a Burqa. In fact Muslim women seldom marry non-Muslim men. Thus proving the Burqa does not diminish their affection for their attire or their men.

Yeah, there could be other reasons.

The fact that she cannot actually go out and meet non-muslim men. And that she might be killed for marrying a non-muslim man.

http://www.mirror.co.uk...

It makes it kinda tough.

More Muslim women end up getting married than western women. Sounds like a success story compared to the number of single women in the west who will end up as spinsters wearing less and being loved less.
If you claimed that marriage is your life's goal, as you would in your 7th century ideology?
The western world is currently in the 21st, you should come visit sometime but don't expect your rape fantasies to be fulfilled.
Western men have evolved well past the ape stage of the third world societies inhabited by the likes of you.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 2:44:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
As long as it is your country then you may create your own regional law according to your wish.
In Islamic country particularly in saudy or uni emirat arab, non muslims are not allowed to build the churches or temples, and you can do the same thing also it is free, you are free to establish the law you want to.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 4:21:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Rapists should receive the death penalty in cases of unprovoked attack. The burqa is a way of men punishing women for looking attractive. It's up to men to refrain from selfish immoral acts. Fortunately in my country rape is rare. Guess what? Hardly anyone here wares the burqa!

But you said you live in uk.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/22/2016 4:38:00 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:06:10 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Rapists should receive the death penalty in cases of unprovoked attack.

So you think some attacks are provoked by women themselves.

The burqa is a way of men punishing women for looking attractive.

Not all women are attractive.

It's up to men to refrain from selfish immoral acts.

And women are free to engage in immoral acts?

Fortunately in my country rape is rare.

You are live in uk now, are you an immigrant? Tell us the name of your home country where 'rape is rare'?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)