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Christians... Why not Marcionism?

SNP1
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4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/23/2016 4:08:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

If I remember correctly you had to believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish, nor was he the son of Yahweh, but of a God greater than the imperfect Yahweh. It was about as Christian as Jehovah Witnesses.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/23/2016 4:20:08 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:08:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

If I remember correctly you had to believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish, nor was he the son of Yahweh, but of a God greater than the imperfect Yahweh.

Marcionism subscribed to Docetism, and so Jesus was not Jewish, he did not teach Jewish scripture, etc (some Neo-Marcionites subscribe to the view that the "Christ" spirit descended into the body of a man Jesus when he came to Earth, but that ultimately they are separate beings)..

And you are correct, the God that was the Father of Christ Jesus was a different, and greater, god than that of the Jews.

So what?

> It was about as Christian as Jehovah Witnesses.

How so?

What real objections do you have to Marcionism?
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/23/2016 4:24:06 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:20:08 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:08:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

If I remember correctly you had to believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish, nor was he the son of Yahweh, but of a God greater than the imperfect Yahweh.

Marcionism subscribed to Docetism, and so Jesus was not Jewish, he did not teach Jewish scripture, etc (some Neo-Marcionites subscribe to the view that the "Christ" spirit descended into the body of a man Jesus when he came to Earth, but that ultimately they are separate beings)..

And you are correct, the God that was the Father of Christ Jesus was a different, and greater, god than that of the Jews.

So what?

> It was about as Christian as Jehovah Witnesses.

How so?

What real objections do you have to Marcionism?

Well once you are willing to deny basic truths then I suppose that anything goes.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/23/2016 4:58:13 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:24:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:20:08 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:08:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

If I remember correctly you had to believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish, nor was he the son of Yahweh, but of a God greater than the imperfect Yahweh.

Marcionism subscribed to Docetism, and so Jesus was not Jewish, he did not teach Jewish scripture, etc (some Neo-Marcionites subscribe to the view that the "Christ" spirit descended into the body of a man Jesus when he came to Earth, but that ultimately they are separate beings)..

And you are correct, the God that was the Father of Christ Jesus was a different, and greater, god than that of the Jews.

So what?

> It was about as Christian as Jehovah Witnesses.

How so?

What real objections do you have to Marcionism?

Well once you are willing to deny basic truths then I suppose that anything goes.

What basic truths?
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#WarOnDDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/23/2016 5:08:13 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:58:13 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:24:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:20:08 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:08:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

If I remember correctly you had to believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish, nor was he the son of Yahweh, but of a God greater than the imperfect Yahweh.

Marcionism subscribed to Docetism, and so Jesus was not Jewish, he did not teach Jewish scripture, etc (some Neo-Marcionites subscribe to the view that the "Christ" spirit descended into the body of a man Jesus when he came to Earth, but that ultimately they are separate beings)..

And you are correct, the God that was the Father of Christ Jesus was a different, and greater, god than that of the Jews.

So what?

> It was about as Christian as Jehovah Witnesses.

How so?

What real objections do you have to Marcionism?

Well once you are willing to deny basic truths then I suppose that anything goes.

What basic truths?

Well once you deny that Jesus was Jewish and that the early Church proclaimed that Jesus was prophesied messiah, you can do pretty much anything. The nature of God himself can be changed.

Marcion was an anti-Semite. He simply just got rid of everything being taught that he didn't want to agree with.
dee-em
Posts: 6,464
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4/23/2016 5:08:38 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

I'm not a Christian but the answer is simple. The sect that won, and became the orthodoxy, went about systematically wiping Marcion and his gospel from history. The only reason we know of him and have been able to partially reconstruct his writings is that we have some early Christian sources who wrote against his "heresy". The winners get to write history (and purge others from it).
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/23/2016 5:32:34 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:08:13 AM, Geogeer wrote:
Well once you deny that Jesus was Jewish

Why believe that Jesus was Jewish?
Why believe that, if Neo-Marcionism is more correct, that the Christ needs to be a human Jew and not simply enter into the body of a human Jew?

and that the early Church proclaimed that Jesus was prophesied messiah,

Which, according to Marcion, was due to many not wanting to give up Judaism and the Law.
If you actually read the Pauline Epistles, excluding the parts that modern scholars think are interpolations, Paul clearly is proto-gnostic.

you can do pretty much anything.

Have you ever even studied Marcionism?
It really seems like your understanding is purely from the pov of an opponent, not an unbiased understanding.

The nature of God himself can be changed.

Marcion was an anti-Semite.

In a way.

He simply just got rid of everything being taught that he didn't want to agree with.

How do you know that what he taught wasn't the original Christianity?
You are making presuppositions based on your biases...
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#WarOnDDO
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/23/2016 5:35:03 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:08:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

I'm not a Christian but the answer is simple. The sect that won, and became the orthodoxy, went about systematically wiping Marcion and his gospel from history. The only reason we know of him and have been able to partially reconstruct his writings is that we have some early Christian sources who wrote against his "heresy". The winners get to write history (and purge others from it).

I understand why it died out initially, but now that we have been able to recover theologies from the time it is a chance for a comeback for them (and some are converting).

In all honesty, if I was brought up under a form of Marcionism I probably wouldn't have deconverted, or at least not nearly as easily.
It seems like a much more sound theology to me than modern Christianity.

I still don't think it is true, but it is something very interesting to me.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/23/2016 8:17:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

SNP, my compliments on digging into early Christian thought, which I too find fascinating. (And for interested members, an overview of Mercionism is on Wikipedia at: [https://en.wikipedia.org...] which I offer as a jumping-off point.)

I'd suggest that most Christians haven't a clue how their canon was decided for them, and what competing ideas were around before and while it was being settled. Many seem to imagine it has been clear, unambiguous and uncontentious for their entire history -- when in fact it has been anything but.

When you scratch their views, I think perhaps the strongest modern reason to reject Marcionism is that Marcion's canon produces an enormously stripped-down Bible. I most modern think Christians like the Bible they have, even though there's no agreement on how to interpret it.

You may be aware, but one of the biggest opponents of Marcion was Tertullian of Carthage.[https://en.wikipedia.org...] I haven't read them yet, but you can find an English translation of nti-Marcionic his writings here. [http://www.tertullian.org...] I suspect Biblical scholars might still quote them today, since they were also influential on later thought.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/23/2016 4:22:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:32:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:08:13 AM, Geogeer wrote:
Well once you deny that Jesus was Jewish

Why believe that Jesus was Jewish?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because he was. The earliest writings testify to this fact.

Why believe that, if Neo-Marcionism is more correct, that the Christ needs to be a human Jew and not simply enter into the body of a human Jew?

So God now possess people like a cheap Star Trek episode?

and that the early Church proclaimed that Jesus was prophesied messiah,

Which, according to Marcion, was due to many not wanting to give up Judaism and the Law.

And a view that was not consistent with the writings of the early Christians. Thus this was an innovation on his part and not part of Christianity.

If you actually read the Pauline Epistles, excluding the parts that modern scholars think are interpolations, Paul clearly is proto-gnostic.

Not at all.

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

you can do pretty much anything.

Have you ever even studied Marcionism?
It really seems like your understanding is purely from the pov of an opponent, not an unbiased understanding.

An in depth research is no necessary, when the basic principles that it is based upon are false.

The nature of God himself can be changed.

Marcion was an anti-Semite.

In a way.

He simply just got rid of everything being taught that he didn't want to agree with.

How do you know that what he taught wasn't the original Christianity?
You are making presuppositions based on your biases...

He even removed passages from Luke and Paul - the only sources he accepted - in order to make their writing conform to his ideas.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/23/2016 5:11:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:35:03 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:08:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/23/2016 2:56:39 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I have been spending a lot of time looking at Marcion as his significance in early Christian history (the field I am going to university) is significant.

His ideas are also simply fascinating.
Honestly, the initial part that made me doubt Christianity was the Old Testament and how to reconcile the Old and New Testament. I think that is actually what MANY ex-Christians first issue was, but Marcionism makes that issue entirely irrelevant.

He is able to keep the Jesus aspect and throw out the "evil" acts of god in the OT in a way that actually works.
His Gospel, which is very similar to Luke, is fascinating. What we can reconstruct of his Antithesis is thought provoking. The fact that he is the reason "Paul" and his letters are significant to Christianity is just amazing. Furthermore, as Dr. Markus Vinzent points out, he is the reason Christians recognized the importance of the Resurrection, which is central to modern day Christianity.

Honestly, I am curious of why there are not many Marcionites today.
So Christians, why are you not Marcionites? What is the biggest reason you have in rejecting Marcionism?

I'm not a Christian but the answer is simple. The sect that won, and became the orthodoxy, went about systematically wiping Marcion and his gospel from history. The only reason we know of him and have been able to partially reconstruct his writings is that we have some early Christian sources who wrote against his "heresy". The winners get to write history (and purge others from it).

I understand why it died out initially, but now that we have been able to recover theologies from the time it is a chance for a comeback for them (and some are converting).

In all honesty, if I was brought up under a form of Marcionism I probably wouldn't have deconverted, or at least not nearly as easily.
It seems like a much more sound theology to me than modern Christianity.

I still don't think it is true, but it is something very interesting to me.

I'm glad you are learning about the Church fathers. As Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/23/2016 8:47:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:22:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:32:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:08:13 AM, Geogeer wrote:
Well once you deny that Jesus was Jewish

Why believe that Jesus was Jewish?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because he was. The earliest writings testify to this fact.

Paul never says that he was a Jew. In fact, Paul says nothing about Jesus on earth.
What are these "earliest writings" you are talking about?

Why believe that, if Neo-Marcionism is more correct, that the Christ needs to be a human Jew and not simply enter into the body of a human Jew?

So God now possess people like a cheap Star Trek episode?

What, exactly, is your objection?

and that the early Church proclaimed that Jesus was prophesied messiah,

Which, according to Marcion, was due to many not wanting to give up Judaism and the Law.

And a view that was not consistent with the writings of the early Christians. Thus this was an innovation on his part and not part of Christianity.

What writings are you talking about. Specifically.

If you actually read the Pauline Epistles, excluding the parts that modern scholars think are interpolations, Paul clearly is proto-gnostic.

Not at all.

Really?

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

So you quote from 2 Peter of all things?
A pseudographical epistle written aout 70-100 years after Paul?

I recommend reading these two books in this order:
"The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels.
"The Amazing Colossal Apostle" by Robert M Price.

While you might not agree with their final conclusions, it is quite clear that Paul was proto-gnostic.
And I am leaving a decent introductory video on the topic here for you as well (though, I completely disagree with the ending statement of the video).
http://youtu.be...

you can do pretty much anything.

Have you ever even studied Marcionism?
It really seems like your understanding is purely from the pov of an opponent, not an unbiased understanding.

An in depth research is no necessary, when the basic principles that it is based upon are false.

You haven't been able to demonstrate that the basic principals are false...

The nature of God himself can be changed.

Marcion was an anti-Semite.

In a way.

He simply just got rid of everything being taught that he didn't want to agree with.

How do you know that what he taught wasn't the original Christianity?
You are making presuppositions based on your biases...

He even removed passages from Luke

Completely false.
The charge was from proponents of Orthodoxy MUCH later (180CE was the first charge).
Justin Martyr, who wrote against Marcion many times, NEVER brings this up.
In fact, Irenaeus says it almost in passing! If he actually bastardized a holy book, it would be the main point, but it wasn't.

Furthermore, if Marcion did edit Luke then he did it in a way entirely unique among the ancients.

There is also much reason to suspect that Luke actually used Marcion and not to other way around (Knox, Tyson, Price, Vinzent, Kilnghardt, and many other scholars have written comprehensive papers and books on the subject).

and Paul

When F.C. Baur tried to prove this he ended up creating his own school of thought for historical study because it became clear that it was entirely false.
There is no evidence that Marcion edited ANY of Paul's epistles, but there is reason to believe that the proto-orthodoxy edited them after Marcion published his canon.

In fact, the view of scholars is even changing for the authorship of the Pastorals, Luke-Acts, and the editing of Paul.
More and more scholars (including the Acts Seminar) are drawing conclusions that the Pastorals and Luke-Acts were written to counter Marcion and that the proto-Orthodoxy edited the epistles from Marcion's canon to make them fit better in their theology.

The authors I mentioned all have great writings on evidence in support of this view.

- the only sources he accepted - in order to make their writing conform to his ideas.

Making this entirely wrong.
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/24/2016 4:19:02 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 8:47:41 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:22:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:32:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:08:13 AM, Geogeer wrote:
Well once you deny that Jesus was Jewish

Why believe that Jesus was Jewish?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because he was. The earliest writings testify to this fact.

Paul never says that he was a Jew. In fact, Paul says nothing about Jesus on earth.
What are these "earliest writings" you are talking about?

Why believe that, if Neo-Marcionism is more correct, that the Christ needs to be a human Jew and not simply enter into the body of a human Jew?

So God now possess people like a cheap Star Trek episode?

What, exactly, is your objection?

and that the early Church proclaimed that Jesus was prophesied messiah,

Which, according to Marcion, was due to many not wanting to give up Judaism and the Law.

And a view that was not consistent with the writings of the early Christians. Thus this was an innovation on his part and not part of Christianity.

What writings are you talking about. Specifically.

If you actually read the Pauline Epistles, excluding the parts that modern scholars think are interpolations, Paul clearly is proto-gnostic.

Not at all.

Really?

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

So you quote from 2 Peter of all things?
A pseudographical epistle written aout 70-100 years after Paul?

I recommend reading these two books in this order:
"The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels.
"The Amazing Colossal Apostle" by Robert M Price.

While you might not agree with their final conclusions, it is quite clear that Paul was proto-gnostic.
And I am leaving a decent introductory video on the topic here for you as well (though, I completely disagree with the ending statement of the video).
http://youtu.be...

you can do pretty much anything.

Have you ever even studied Marcionism?
It really seems like your understanding is purely from the pov of an opponent, not an unbiased understanding.

An in depth research is no necessary, when the basic principles that it is based upon are false.

You haven't been able to demonstrate that the basic principals are false...

The nature of God himself can be changed.

Marcion was an anti-Semite.

In a way.

He simply just got rid of everything being taught that he didn't want to agree with.

How do you know that what he taught wasn't the original Christianity?
You are making presuppositions based on your biases...

He even removed passages from Luke

Completely false.
The charge was from proponents of Orthodoxy MUCH later (180CE was the first charge).
Justin Martyr, who wrote against Marcion many times, NEVER brings this up.
In fact, Irenaeus says it almost in passing! If he actually bastardized a holy book, it would be the main point, but it wasn't.

Furthermore, if Marcion did edit Luke then he did it in a way entirely unique among the ancients.

There is also much reason to suspect that Luke actually used Marcion and not to other way around (Knox, Tyson, Price, Vinzent, Kilnghardt, and many other scholars have written comprehensive papers and books on the subject).

and Paul

When F.C. Baur tried to prove this he ended up creating his own school of thought for historical study because it became clear that it was entirely false.
There is no evidence that Marcion edited ANY of Paul's epistles, but there is reason to believe that the proto-orthodoxy edited them after Marcion published his canon.

In fact, the view of scholars is even changing for the authorship of the Pastorals, Luke-Acts, and the editing of Paul.
More and more scholars (including the Acts Seminar) are drawing conclusions that the Pastorals and Luke-Acts were written to counter Marcion and that the proto-Orthodoxy edited the epistles from Marcion's canon to make them fit better in their theology.

The authors I mentioned all have great writings on evidence in support of this view.

- the only sources he accepted - in order to make their writing conform to his ideas.

Making this entirely wrong.

You're relying on the Jesus seminar people? Never mind then - there are way bigger problems that would need to be addressed first.
SNP1
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4/24/2016 4:48:26 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 4:19:02 AM, Geogeer wrote:
You're relying on the Jesus seminar people? Never mind then - there are way bigger problems that would need to be addressed first.

1) Never said Jesus Seminar.
2) I used the Acts Seminar as an example, as they have, for the longest time, represented the consensus. Whenever they view of the Acts Seminar has changed, the consensus wasn't far behind it or in front of it.
3) It still seems like you have no logical objections.
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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4/25/2016 5:30:18 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 4:48:26 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 4:19:02 AM, Geogeer wrote:
You're relying on the Jesus seminar people? Never mind then - there are way bigger problems that would need to be addressed first.

1) Never said Jesus Seminar.
2) I used the Acts Seminar as an example, as they have, for the longest time, represented the consensus. Whenever they view of the Acts Seminar has changed, the consensus wasn't far behind it or in front of it.
3) It still seems like you have no logical objections.

Oodles of logical objections, however if you are going to adhere to the act seminar (same people as the Jesus Seminar) then we aren't going to bother making it a biblical discussion.

Let's just start at where I was before. There is no continuation of thought here from any previous source. Additionally from what I can tell, his ideas quickly fell into Gnosticism because his concept of Gods was so weak. Christ arrives as some kind of Deus ex Machina. There is no foretelling, no reason, no logic, just because.

There is no duality of God mentioned in Paul or Luke. This is a pure assumption made by Marcion. Additionally he believes the Old Testament to be true, but unnecessary. There is no reason why there is no duty to the God who created us and why there are differing spheres of influence between these Gods. This is a return to an inferior man made concept of gods with imperfect personalities. These gods are beings, rather than being itself. These are beings that now need explanation as to how and why they come to exist and why they have different sources of power.

Additionally, he joins into the the matter is evil crowd, sex is evil blah, blah, blah. Weak gnostic influences on him, causing a combination of Christianity and Gnosticism.

Basically it becomes logically untenable once you delve deeper.