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A. Abortion

desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/23/2016 3:51:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Why do some animals eat their offspring?
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 4:00:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

From what I have heard, because, all things considered, they feel it's the lesser of two evils.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.
tarantula
Posts: 865
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4/23/2016 4:32:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Far better to abort a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/23/2016 4:43:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

What is the empirical objective measure of when a potential person is indeed an actual person?

Until you understand your bias subjective arbitrary definition of potential human you won't understand the abortion debate.

I like referring to the definition of biological life which says "reproduction". so a human isn't an actual person until puberty and we should be legally allowed to euthanize, abort, prepubescent children.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 4:50:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:32:11 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Far better to abort a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.

Yes, murder is the best solution to difficult problems.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/23/2016 4:51:34 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:32:11 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Far better to abort a fetus in the early stages of pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.

I and my brother were unwanted pregnancy. I elect that preserving life is above any temporary discomfort. And in this case the best would be to adopt out an unwanted child.

The child had no responsibility in causing the pregnancy. That was the Mother and Father's decision. So why should an innocent non culpable entity die for the convenience of the mother (I say mother because the father has no say in it either)

The court has decided that the cutoff for abortion be the stage of viability. The stage at which the mother and fetus can be separated and the fetus grow. This was a legal pragmatic solution to protecting the rights of both entities.

A decision and understanding of Roe vs Wade seems to be lacking in Con-life camps.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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4/23/2016 4:55:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:43:41 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

What is the empirical objective measure of when a potential person is indeed an actual person?

There isn't one. That's why people generally disagree about it. And that's why the real issue here is who is going to decide this for whom, and based on what?

Until you understand your bias subjective arbitrary definition of potential human you won't understand the abortion debate.

Yes, that's what I posted. Different people have different ideas about when a person becomes a person, within the natal development process. But no one has a definitive resolution to that question. So who is going to make this determination, and based on what? Should the mother make that determination, based on the fact that it's happening insider her body? Should the state make that determination based on the assumption that the fetus has an unalienable right to life at some arbitrary point?

These are the questions being debated.

I like referring to the definition of biological life which says "reproduction". so a human isn't an actual person until puberty and we should be legally allowed to euthanize, abort, prepubescent children.

I think some uniquely human form of complex self-awareness would probably be a better gage, but the fact is we just don't have the the ability to define or determine this, yet. So we're stuck until we do.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 4:56:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:43:41 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

What is the empirical objective measure of when a potential person is indeed an actual person?

Until you understand your bias subjective arbitrary definition of potential human you won't understand the abortion debate.

I like referring to the definition of biological life which says "reproduction". so a human isn't an actual person until puberty and we should be legally allowed to euthanize, abort, prepubescent children.

Then again that's your straw man definition that you erect only to knock down with mock punches.

It might be of interest to read the bible. Let's look at this verse:

Numbers 5:11-31
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

"11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: "If a man"s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure"or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure" 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 ""The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"" 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse""may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

""Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 ""The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 ""This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.""

What we have here in these lovely-as-usual verses is essentially an abortion conducted by God himself, carried on grounds of infidelity. Oddly enough, I don't see many Christians quote these verses, but it's not too hard to understand why.

Abortion is a complex issue because there are contradictory rights at play. Yes, women are sovereign over their bodies but a balance must be struck between their inalienable right and the rights of the unborn child. That's why I find the solution most Western countries have adopted balanced and reasonable. They have set a time threshold, usually around the 20th week, which has been established via sound medical research, under which abortion can be carried out with no legal repercussions to the mother.

Next time a Christian comes yelling at your ear "Murderer!", remind him of that pearl of a verse.
trunkflOW
Posts: 7
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4/23/2016 5:03:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:32:11 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Far better to abort a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.

But you humans claim you are most intelligent, and yet you don't know when or when not you want the baby?
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 5:13:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:03:50 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:32:11 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Far better to abort a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.

But you humans claim you are most intelligent, and yet you don't know when or when not you want the baby?

Just how little experience of life one has to have under one's belt in order not to have even heard of unwanted pregnancies?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/23/2016 5:32:19 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:55:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:43:41 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

What is the empirical objective measure of when a potential person is indeed an actual person?

There isn't one. That's why people generally disagree about it. And that's why the real issue here is who is going to decide this for whom, and based on what?

Gentetics define a species. No matter what stage of development it is in. Take the genes of a tadpole and egg or a toad and all the genes will show a "Bufo"

Why should we define human by a stage of development but what actually makes us human, makes us grow as human, and distinguishes us as human from everything else?

I find it inconsistent to treat every developmental stage of a butterfly as the same species, but to deny that a fetus is human.


Until you understand your bias subjective arbitrary definition of potential human you won't understand the abortion debate.

Yes, that's what I posted. Different people have different ideas about when a person becomes a person, within the natal development process. But no one has a definitive resolution to that question. So who is going to make this determination, and based on what? Should the mother make that determination, based on the fact that it's happening insider her body? Should the state make that determination based on the assumption that the fetus has an unalienable right to life at some arbitrary point?

So if we say Human is based on genetics the next question is the legal rights of the human. Legal rights are dictate by legislation and don't have to be justified by anything real.

We prioritize life as being above other rights. Because we know the fetus is human with a unique genetic code from the mother it is a different body. Also in Law we try to dictate that harm should fall upon those that are culpable. IN both regards the body of the fetus is a separate body, and is an innocent life responsible for the situation. It is against the principles of justice to kill the fetus.


These are the questions being debated.

I like referring to the definition of biological life which says "reproduction". so a human isn't an actual person until puberty and we should be legally allowed to euthanize, abort, prepubescent children.

I think some uniquely human form of complex self-awareness would probably be a better gage, but the fact is we just don't have the the ability to define or determine this, yet. So we're stuck until we do.

Well that kind of consciousness appears at 2-3 years of age. Should we be allowed to "abort" up to 3 years old?

This is the problem with picking a stage of development to determine 1. being human.

You could argue honestly. Saying developmental stages are used to dictate rights. Like a driving or drinking age. Or to collect Social Security ect..

You can make the right to life.. a privileged the state bestows on beings of a particular stage. That's really the society a secularist wants. I would call it a dystopia.
Gaanv2
Posts: 20
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4/23/2016 5:43:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:51:46 PM, desmac wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Why do some animals eat their offspring?

Irony is that humans who have better food security tend to abort more often in comparison to those who barely feed themselves.
G o l dF
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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4/23/2016 6:08:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

You do realise that humans are animals too?
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 6:31:21 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

I do accept that many people justify their acceptance of abortion using that argument. That in no way means the argument is in any way valid.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 6:42:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?

It comes from those invested into legislative power by democratic elections where everyone has had a chance to express their viewpoints on the matter. Thank goodness, western countries are not bronze age theocracies.

Western societies, for the most part, have reached a social consensus on this matter, express clearly through vote election after election after election.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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4/23/2016 6:45:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:31:21 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

I do accept that many people justify their acceptance of abortion using that argument. That in no way means the argument is in any way valid.

What provokes me is that a woman volunteers to abort the child, she feels no sorrows no pain. It is somehow established that it is WRONG if you feel guilty aborting the young. You know, it has become a symbol of feminism, women rights and women are supposed to feel liberated while loosing their child.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 6:46:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:42:32 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?

It comes from those invested into legislative power by democratic elections where everyone has had a chance to express their viewpoints on the matter. Thank goodness, western countries are not bronze age theocracies.

Western societies, for the most part, have reached a social consensus on this matter, express clearly through vote election after election after election.

So in other words you believe that's rights are made by the government. Thus when slavery was legal it was just, when Germans removed rights from Jews it was just.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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4/23/2016 6:50:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:42:32 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?

It comes from those invested into legislative power by democratic elections where everyone has had a chance to express their viewpoints on the matter. Thank goodness, western countries are not bronze age theocracies.

Abortion is advancement?

Western societies, for the most part, have reached a social consensus on this matter, express clearly through vote election after election after election.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 7:02:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:45:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:31:21 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

I do accept that many people justify their acceptance of abortion using that argument. That in no way means the argument is in any way valid.

What provokes me is that a woman volunteers to abort the child, she feels no sorrows no pain. It is somehow established that it is WRONG if you feel guilty aborting the young. You know, it has become a symbol of feminism, women rights and women are supposed to feel liberated while loosing their child.

People can convince themselves of anything. I believe that in their heat of hearts, they know what they did was evil. Some just hide it away better.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 7:05:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 6:46:35 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:42:32 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?

It comes from those invested into legislative power by democratic elections where everyone has had a chance to express their viewpoints on the matter. Thank goodness, western countries are not bronze age theocracies.

Western societies, for the most part, have reached a social consensus on this matter, express clearly through vote election after election after election.

So in other words you believe that's rights are made by the government. Thus when slavery was legal it was just, when Germans removed rights from Jews it was just.

You might want to consider being more precise with your language. You asked where did the right came from. I gave you the answer. The question made no reference whatsoever with regard to legitimacy.

As for slavery, which the bible fully endorses, it is immoral. Notice how the quoted Numbers bible verse, about which you have chosen to remain silent, doesn't mention any sort of late term restriction. In other words, the God-sanctioned God-conducted abortion could be carried out no matter how late into the pregnancy the suspected cheating wife would be. It is truly taking the piss for Christians to attempt to take the moral high ground on this matter.

As I've said, there are several contradictory rights at play here. I find the solution most western democracies have adopted balanced, reasonable and supported by medical evidence.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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4/23/2016 7:09:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 7:02:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

People can convince themselves of anything.

and then you continue with

I believe that in their heat of hearts, they know what they did was evil.

Oh, the irony.
There's your answer.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 7:29:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 7:05:32 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:46:35 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:42:32 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:31:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 6:09:56 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

It is, whether you aprove of it or not, under most western countries' law and under certain restrictions.

Where does this right come from?

It comes from those invested into legislative power by democratic elections where everyone has had a chance to express their viewpoints on the matter. Thank goodness, western countries are not bronze age theocracies.

Western societies, for the most part, have reached a social consensus on this matter, express clearly through vote election after election after election.

So in other words you believe that's rights are made by the government. Thus when slavery was legal it was just, when Germans removed rights from Jews it was just.

You might want to consider being more precise with your language. You asked where did the right came from. I gave you the answer. The question made no reference whatsoever with regard to legitimacy.

As for slavery, which the bible fully endorses, it is immoral. Notice how the quoted Numbers bible verse, about which you have chosen to remain silent, doesn't mention any sort of late term restriction. In other words, the God-sanctioned God-conducted abortion could be carried out no matter how late into the pregnancy the suspected cheating wife would be. It is truly taking the piss for Christians to attempt to take the moral high ground on this matter.

As I've said, there are several contradictory rights at play here. I find the solution most western democracies have adopted balanced, reasonable and supported by medical evidence.

I'll debate Biblical Slavery with you if you like - yet I haven't mentioned God once in my arguments. However your argument is that it is the law which grants rights, which in essence means that you have no rights, but merely state sanctioned privileges.

Medical evidence says that the zygote is a human. Seem that medical evidence is more in line with my point of view.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/23/2016 7:30:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 7:09:27 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 4/23/2016 7:02:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

People can convince themselves of anything.

and then you continue with

I believe that in their heat of hearts, they know what they did was evil.

Oh, the irony.
There's your answer.

And I stand by it.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/23/2016 7:41:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/23/2016 5:53:27 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:52:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2016 4:21:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/23/2016 3:50:14 PM, trunkflOW wrote:
Animals sacrifice themselves for their offsprings.

Why do some humans abort their baby?

Humans don't abort "babies", they abort fetuses. Most humans do not presume that a potential person is the same as an actual person. So that to abort the process before it becomes a person would not be considered the same as killing an existing person.

Until you can understand this, you will not understand the abortion debate.

Once you understand this, hopefully, you will realize that the debate is not about killing babies, it's about the fact that we humans have different idea about when a fetus manifests enough individual human characteristics to be considered a human person, and therefor should have the right to live that we afford all human persons.

What the abortion debate is really about is who gets to decide this question, and based on what reasoning.

Yes, we as a species have an excellent record of denying right to other humans by classifying those we wish to abuse as not persons.

Geogeer, don't you think that - abortion, once considered as an unfortunate situation or rather the last option is now a days projected as 'a mother's right' ?

A mother's right to kill her children who she through her actions brought into this world.

We wouldn't give any one else such a license to kill. In fact People are arrested for such actions if they attempt to dot he same to animals.

If I breed puppies just to drown them in salt water and tear them apart with forceps I would be arrested for animal cruelty.

Abortion is an immoral act. It is murder of a being that bares no responsibility for the situation. It should be made illegal.

In addition to the rights and principles it violates, it is harmful to women.

The causes of abortion are not addressed by abortion.

Abortion was started by a racist who wanted to abort black babies in an attempt to shrink their numbers.

Abortion IS leading to cultural death in other countries. Adversely impacting populations.

I'm not repeating this stuff. just google it.