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Who goes to hell?

Jovian
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4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?
user13579
Posts: 822
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4/29/2016 11:27:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
People who believe in god go to hell, people who don't believe in god go to heaven.
Science in a nutshell:
"Facts are neither true nor false. They simply are."
"All scientific knowledge is provisional. Even facts are provisional."
"We can be absolutely certain that we have a moon, we can be absolutely certain that water is made out of H2O, and we can be absolutely certain that the Earth is a sphere!"
"Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty -- some most unsure, some nearly sure, none absolutely certain."
Jovian
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4/29/2016 11:27:55 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it)

Stupid autocorrect. That should had been "and never repeNted for it".
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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4/29/2016 11:30:01 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:27:04 PM, user13579 wrote:
People who believe in god go to hell, people who don't believe in god go to heaven.

Thank you. Now I know it's just to open the pearly gates without waiting forever for God allowing me to enter.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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4/30/2016 12:00:29 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

In the case of Jesus Christ according to the book of revelation He has the keys to the gates of hell, hence no one goes to hell unless He says so. So it"s not He who condemns you but one"s own judgement that results in death and condemnation. Therefore, God"s Judgement is Life and Mercy, but if one holds to one"s own judgement in disregard for God"s, then.

you received the life that Adam and Eve had which was dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. hence anything more would have to come from God, hence the Gospel message of one must be born again, born of spirit, born of God's Spirit which is the Life that isn't condemned to death.
Jovian
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4/30/2016 12:05:52 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 12:00:29 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

In the case of Jesus Christ according to the book of revelation He has the keys to the gates of hell, hence no one goes to hell unless He says so. So it"s not He who condemns you but one"s own judgement that results in death and condemnation. Therefore, God"s Judgement is Life and Mercy, but if one holds to one"s own judgement in disregard for God"s, then.

you received the life that Adam and Eve had which was dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. hence anything more would have to come from God, hence the Gospel message of one must be born again, born of spirit, born of God's Spirit which is the Life that isn't condemned to death.

You didn't answer the question. Exactly what unrepented sins and crimes will make Jesus open the gates of hell for anyone? And: Will the unrepented shoplift of one chocolate bar generate the exact same punishment as having committed a genocide while being proud of it?
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 12:15:03 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

I don't believe in "hell" in the way that many religions depict it. I believe souls that aren't immediately taken to heaven through faith will go to hell, meaning hades, or the ground. They will be judged according to their deeds, not according to their beliefs. The verse suggests judgement will be whether an individual did overall good, or overall evil. True repentance is when you do not continue in a sin, not necessarily when you feel remorse but continue in the same sins.
John
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This verse also suggests that love can "omit" sin.
Luke 7:47
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.

I really hope some religious "dogma" believer doesn't start something with me on this thread, when I'm attempting to share with you what I love about the Gospel, and why it uplifts me and represents love as well as logic.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet Christians are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.
The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:

What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 2:33:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:

What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?

My question is, why are only atheists "allowed" to have individual beliefs? It is Atheists as much as some Christians who demand believers accept canon.

Why do you care if I "cherry pick the Bible? That is between me and the God that I have faith in. I'm attempting to invite those who are afraid of organized religion, to accept comfort of not going to hell, and to show religious believers that even the scriptures back me up in my faith.

Cherry picking scripture is the only logical choice, of believing in Christ and being sane. The all or nothing approach is why many believers who do not agree verbatim with religious dogma, but have internal beliefs in God do not share their beliefs on these forums.

Why do you care if I share my faith and beliefs about hell with Jovian? I'd rather invite agnostics and atheists to accept God on their own terms, than try to convince verbatim styled believers to accept the freedom of my beliefs.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/30/2016 8:04:29 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 2:33:57 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:

What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?

My question is, why are only atheists "allowed" to have individual beliefs? It is Atheists as much as some Christians who demand believers accept canon.

Where have I done that? My first post wasn't even directed specifically to you. Perhaps I could have put the word "most" in front of "Christians". Mea culpa.

Why do you care if I "cherry pick the Bible? That is between me and the God that I have faith in. I'm attempting to invite those who are afraid of organized religion, to accept comfort of not going to hell, and to show religious believers that even the scriptures back me up in my faith.

When you cherry-pick you must have reasons why you accept some scripture and reject other scripture. I'm interested in the criteria you use. The Bible in its entirety is supposed to be the word of God. If you know more than the early church fathers who put these books together then please share with us. If, on the other hand, you are only going by what bits you like and ignoring the rest then you might understand why atheists (and your fellow Christians) might take issue with such an approach.

Cherry picking scripture is the only logical choice, of believing in Christ and being sane. The all or nothing approach is why many believers who do not agree verbatim with religious dogma, but have internal beliefs in God do not share their beliefs on these forums.

I suspect that many Christians haven't even read the Bible in its entirety. However, I don't agree that cherry-picking is the only sane course. There are many Christians who accept the entirety of the Bible and they aren't all clinically insane. In fact, I think they might take issue with you categorizing them that way!

Why do you care if I share my faith and beliefs about hell with Jovian?

I don't. I didn't reply to you but to him.

I'd rather invite agnostics and atheists to accept God on their own terms, than try to convince verbatim styled believers to accept the freedom of my beliefs.

You might have more success with the latter option, methinks. :-)
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/30/2016 8:04:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 2:33:57 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:

What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?

My question is, why are only atheists "allowed" to have individual beliefs? It is Atheists as much as some Christians who demand believers accept canon.

Why do you care if I "cherry pick the Bible? That is between me and the God that I have faith in. I'm attempting to invite those who are afraid of organized religion, to accept comfort of not going to hell, and to show religious believers that even the scriptures back me up in my faith.

Cherry picking scripture is the only logical choice, of believing in Christ and being sane. The all or nothing approach is why many believers who do not agree verbatim with religious dogma, but have internal beliefs in God do not share their beliefs on these forums.

Why do you care if I share my faith and beliefs about hell with Jovian? I'd rather invite agnostics and atheists to accept God on their own terms, than try to convince verbatim styled believers to accept the freedom of my beliefs.

I have faith!
Mormons have faith!
Muslims have faith!
Botchtowerites have faith!
SDA's have faith!
Hindus have faith!
etc. etc.

Why is your supposed faith more credible?
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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4/30/2016 10:46:34 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All non muslims go to hell.
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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4/30/2016 11:23:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

I think, small crimes will be forgiven but good deeds (even very small) will be rewarded much.
And severe crimes will be punished as far as size of crime, not more.

Because Allah is most forgiver and merciful.
Begin
Posts: 29
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4/30/2016 1:49:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

The simple answer is, your choice! By rejecting someone else's payment for your debt that you have no way in paying, is for you to pay for it yourself. Which you have not the means to comply. Your payment is your life. That's the bill, your life. A life without doing hurt, to you, to other's, and doing good, to you, to others in need.
Begin
Posts: 29
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4/30/2016 1:57:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 1:49:04 PM, Begin wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

The simple answer is, your choice! By rejecting someone else's payment for your debt that you have no way in paying, is for you to pay for it yourself. Which you have not the means to comply. Your payment is your life. That's the bill, your life. A life without doing hurt, to you, to other's, and doing good, to you, to others in need.

And no, hell is not going on right now, and you will not be burning for ever. That concept is out of line with the bible, which reveals the character of God. HE ain't like that, pardon my English.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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4/30/2016 3:05:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 12:05:52 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:00:29 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

In the case of Jesus Christ according to the book of revelation He has the keys to the gates of hell, hence no one goes to hell unless He says so. So it"s not He who condemns you but one"s own judgement that results in death and condemnation. Therefore, God"s Judgement is Life and Mercy, but if one holds to one"s own judgement in disregard for God"s, then.

you received the life that Adam and Eve had which was dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. hence anything more would have to come from God, hence the Gospel message of one must be born again, born of spirit, born of God's Spirit which is the Life that isn't condemned to death.

You didn't answer the question. Exactly what unrepented sins and crimes will make Jesus open the gates of hell for anyone? And: Will the unrepented shoplift of one chocolate bar generate the exact same punishment as having committed a genocide while being proud of it?

And you didn"t read what was posted, doesn"t matter what sin, sin is the same result for which one is born in to in the flesh. Therefore, denying the Spirit of God that is the Life of no condemnation is the only way one can remain in sin and separation from God.

Besides you should read the bible if you really want to know

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

your question was answered.
oo00
Posts: 134
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4/30/2016 3:11:40 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions? : :

Every body goes to hell but only the bodies. What makes the body appear remains intact for eternity.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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4/30/2016 6:10:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 3:05:58 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:05:52 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:00:29 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

In the case of Jesus Christ according to the book of revelation He has the keys to the gates of hell, hence no one goes to hell unless He says so. So it"s not He who condemns you but one"s own judgement that results in death and condemnation. Therefore, God"s Judgement is Life and Mercy, but if one holds to one"s own judgement in disregard for God"s, then.

you received the life that Adam and Eve had which was dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. hence anything more would have to come from God, hence the Gospel message of one must be born again, born of spirit, born of God's Spirit which is the Life that isn't condemned to death.

You didn't answer the question. Exactly what unrepented sins and crimes will make Jesus open the gates of hell for anyone? And: Will the unrepented shoplift of one chocolate bar generate the exact same punishment as having committed a genocide while being proud of it?

And you didn"t read what was posted, doesn"t matter what sin, sin is the same result for which one is born in to in the flesh.

Which comes to the conclusion that there is no punishment scale at all in Christianity. Be to pessimistic to belive in a god = as bad as torturing millions of children. Great...

Therefore, denying the Spirit of God that is the Life of no condemnation is the only way one can remain in sin and separation from God.

What about people of too low intelligence to make a religious choice? Or people from an isolated tribe who never came into contact with Christianity?
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/30/2016 7:07:13 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

The only thing you need to do to go to hell is to be born.

According to the Bible Hell is nothing more than a state of temporary non-existence from which the dead are awaken by resurrection into a cleansed earth after Armageddon.

It is destroyed, removed, thrown into the lake of fire after the final test, along with death since they will not be needed any more.

God is not so sadistic as to make people suffer unnecessarily.
Jovian
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4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 9:27:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:04:47 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/30/2016 2:33:57 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:

What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?

My question is, why are only atheists "allowed" to have individual beliefs? It is Atheists as much as some Christians who demand believers accept canon.

Why do you care if I "cherry pick the Bible? That is between me and the God that I have faith in. I'm attempting to invite those who are afraid of organized religion, to accept comfort of not going to hell, and to show religious believers that even the scriptures back me up in my faith.

Cherry picking scripture is the only logical choice, of believing in Christ and being sane. The all or nothing approach is why many believers who do not agree verbatim with religious dogma, but have internal beliefs in God do not share their beliefs on these forums.

Why do you care if I share my faith and beliefs about hell with Jovian? I'd rather invite agnostics and atheists to accept God on their own terms, than try to convince verbatim styled believers to accept the freedom of my beliefs.

I have faith!
Mormons have faith!
Muslims have faith!
Botchtowerites have faith!
SDA's have faith!
Hindus have faith!
etc. etc.

Why is your supposed faith more credible?
Mine is more inviting to those who have no faith. It allows the free thinking that many atheists value along with the joy that faith in a greater power brings. Maybe more atheists/ agnostics would be more attracted to establishing a belief system if organized religion didn't force people to abandon their individual style of reasoning.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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4/30/2016 9:33:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?

God has mercy on whom He will and hardens the rest.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 10:00:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:04:29 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 2:33:57 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 1:06:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:50:37 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/30/2016 12:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:

It's one of the basic rules of any justice system that the punishment should fit the crime. We would be horrified if a shoplifter were given the death penalty or a life sentence. Yet [?Christians?] are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all concept of Hell where the punishment is fixed (eternal damnation) and not proportionate to the sin(s). To be fair, some made a half-hearted attempt to address this issue in the middle ages with works such as Dante's Inferno and the nine circles of Hell. I don't think this ever became canon though.

The problem is that some nonbelievers classify all Christians, with those who believe in the canonized version of Christianity. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if Atheist's mandated that all other Atheists accepted canonized beliefs about their disbelief?

Firstly, atheists don't have any beliefs related to their atheism, let alone a canon.

Secondly, what would you like me to do, tailor every post I make to every brand of Christian out there? The vast majority of Christians believe in a literal Heaven and Hell. I can only address the majority unless I want to tie myself up in knots. If your beliefs differ from most of your fellow Christians then you must think they are deluded. Why don't you try helping them? I suspect though that they have scripture on their side and you do not.

I am a Christian who doesn't belief in much of what is "canon," but I do believe in Christ's teachings in the 4 Gospels, and some Gnostic Gospels too.

Good for you. Why do you reject the OT but accept the NT? Aren't you then just cherry-picking from the Bible?

My question is, why are only atheists "allowed" to have individual beliefs? It is Atheists as much as some Christians who demand believers accept canon.

Where have I done that? My first post wasn't even directed specifically to you. Perhaps I could have put the word "most" in front of "Christians". Mea culpa.
That would have been great, to have added most or many. I think there may be some "Christians" who don't admit they believe, because it causes more "devout" Christians to call them phoney or insincere, just because they maintain autonomous thoughts about their beliefs.

Why do you care if I "cherry pick the Bible? That is between me and the God that I have faith in.
I'm attempting to invite those who are afraid of organized religion, to accept comfort of not going to hell, and to show religious believers that even the scriptures back me up in my faith.

When you cherry-pick you must have reasons why you accept some scripture and reject other scripture. I'm interested in the criteria you use. The Bible in its entirety is supposed to be the word of God. If you know more than the early church fathers who put these books together then please share with us. If, on the other hand, you are only going by what bits you like and ignoring the rest then you might understand why atheists (and your fellow Christians) might take issue with such an approach.I had a liberal Christian upbringting, meaning my parents believed in God and Jesus, but never preached their belifs. They showed their faith in the way they lived.

As a teen, I fell into promiscuity, but still practiced Christianity in how I treated others but by my early 20's I felt dirty and was no able to love myself of others. My "reconciliation" was in a Gospel Music tent, where I was cleansed for m the inside while I was 8 months pregnant - out of wedlock - for the second time. I had a very deep spiritual experience while listening to the voices praising God with so much love in their voices and was redeemed through a kind of weeping that wasn't sadness but cleansing. When I came out of the tent I felt refreshed. A woman who saw my dress drenched with tears embraced me - told me God loves me and to only read the Gospel to get to know my Savior's personality and who he is.

So for 12 years I only read the Gospel - in depth - until I really understood Jesus as a human who walked the earth as a man with a mission of God's Son. Knowing the "human" Jesus - and how he interacted with other people, makes all knowledge from other sources irrelevant, because to know him as a man, is to know that he dealt with individuals based on their unique personalities, strengths and weaknesses. This is the Jesus I'd like to invite others to know.

Cherry picking scripture is the only logical choice, of believing in Christ and being sane. The all or nothing approach is why many believers who do not agree verbatim with religious dogma, but have internal beliefs in God do not share their beliefs on these forums.

I suspect that many Christians haven't even read the Bible in its entirety. However, I don't agree that cherry-picking is the only sane course. There are many Christians who accept the entirety of the Bible and they aren't all clinically insane. In fact, I think they might take issue with you categorizing them that way!
I don't care if they take issue with me calling them insane, they would likewise call me the same. They are the same kinds of Christians who believe that Jesus was sacrificed so that they can sin and feel forgiven, without having faith that real repentance brings forth an inner cleansing, and sinning is no longer a matter of will power, but a sincere desire to love thy neighbor as thyself. Not that I have been 100% sin free since being "redeemed" but my motives are truly changed and I have never even been tempted to want to return to the kind of sinful lifestyle that I was once involved in. I'm talking about men who act all holy in church but still gaze lustily at any attractive female, even ones under 18, and then make the excuse that their sinful nature is due to ADAM'S SIN and take no responsibility to repent and accept cleansing. These are many times the same kinds of Christians who accept the whole bible verbatim.

Why do you care if I share my faith and beliefs about hell with Jovian?

I don't. I didn't reply to you but to him.

I'd rather invite agnostics and atheists to accept God on their own terms, than try to convince verbatim styled believers to accept the freedom of my beliefs.

You might have more success with the latter option, methinks. :-)
No, God has given me a "mission" to share the Gospel and only the Gospel with those who have been confused because of religion.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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4/30/2016 11:20:19 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 9:33:31 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?

God has mercy on whom He will and hardens the rest.

You had nothing to do in this thread if you never were able to specify exactly who these people are.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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4/30/2016 11:24:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 11:20:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 9:33:31 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?

God has mercy on whom He will and hardens the rest.

You had nothing to do in this thread if you never were able to specify exactly who these people are.

I disagree.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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5/1/2016 12:07:55 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 11:24:43 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 11:20:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 9:33:31 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?

God has mercy on whom He will and hardens the rest.

You had nothing to do in this thread if you never were able to specify exactly who these people are.

I disagree.

You basically answered "Those who God sends to hell are more specifically those who God sends to hell". Elaborate. What crimes have these people done in order to go to hell?
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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5/1/2016 12:29:02 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/1/2016 12:07:55 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 11:24:43 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 11:20:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 9:33:31 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:21:18 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:52:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/29/2016 11:25:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
What do you need to do in order to go there? All crimes/sins? Or only as severe crimes like those Hitler and Stalin etc did? And if it's every crime, is it really logical to use the same punishment on someone who only has stolen a chocolate bar in his teenage (and never repeated for it) as the punishment done on people who are responsible for the torture and killings of millions?

All of those God has predestined to go there.

Which more specifically happen to be...?

God has mercy on whom He will and hardens the rest.

You had nothing to do in this thread if you never were able to specify exactly who these people are.

I disagree.

You basically answered "Those who God sends to hell are more specifically those who God sends to hell". Elaborate. What crimes have these people done in order to go to hell?

They violated His Law.