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A Timeless God

Double_R
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4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/30/2016 6:31:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
God is the first and the last. When the extreme becomes its opposite, and includes both.

The Singularity.

Can you dig it?
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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4/30/2016 6:37:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.

I can sort of buy into a mind outside of time, but it requires a grounded example in reality, and some serious mental gymnastics to apply that to a mind outside of what we understand a mind to be in a place we can only speculate to be out of time.

I think of it like this (and yes, immediately recognize the frailties when applying it to something larger like God in scale, but bear with me):

Lets say you read some novel. You, now having the knowledge, can put yourself anywhere in time in of that novel. You know the characters, you know the mind sets and events, you need not specifically remember the chronology in order to recall a specific detail.

So (its being peddled) it is with God. God being the author of such a novel can pick, and choose the setting, locales, people, mindsets etc from the comfort of whatever writing desk He uses to be aware of the details. Past present and future are known, its His story after all.

This, however, flies in the face of free will.
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ViceRegent
Posts: 606
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4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.

I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.
Double_R
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4/30/2016 6:58:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:37:59 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.

I can sort of buy into a mind outside of time, but it requires a grounded example in reality, and some serious mental gymnastics to apply that to a mind outside of what we understand a mind to be in a place we can only speculate to be out of time.

I think of it like this (and yes, immediately recognize the frailties when applying it to something larger like God in scale, but bear with me):

Lets say you read some novel. You, now having the knowledge, can put yourself anywhere in time in of that novel. You know the characters, you know the mind sets and events, you need not specifically remember the chronology in order to recall a specific detail.

So (its being peddled) it is with God. God being the author of such a novel can pick, and choose the setting, locales, people, mindsets etc from the comfort of whatever writing desk He uses to be aware of the details. Past present and future are known, its His story after all.

This, however, flies in the face of free will.

This concept only makes sense if you think about it as "time outside of time". So one can say that God created and therefore exists outside of our time, but not that God created time itself. And in that case the "What created God" question would still apply, which defies the point of the argument.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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4/30/2016 7:13:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.

I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.

So you have no counter, then? Thanks for offering your usual brand of "words without intent" commentary.
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SNP1
Posts: 2,407
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4/30/2016 7:15:04 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Unless you subscribe to the concept of simultaneous causality. The issue with this, however, is that that means that the universe can cause itself, and the Law of Parsimony would support that conclusion.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

I do actually think that the argument against atemporal minds is a decent argument, but I know Tej doesn't. Curious if he will comment here.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/30/2016 7:18:34 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.

So have you, by refusing to even acknowledge the most basic challenge to your worldview 8 times already. Here goes #9...

http://www.debate.org...
ViceRegent
Posts: 606
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4/30/2016 7:19:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:18:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.

So have you, by refusing to even acknowledge the most basic challenge to your worldview 8 times already. Here goes #9...

http://www.debate.org...

How did I know he would run.
Double_R
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4/30/2016 7:20:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:19:59 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:18:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.

So have you, by refusing to even acknowledge the most basic challenge to your worldview 8 times already. Here goes #9...

http://www.debate.org...

How did I know he would run.

Because he is busy chasing you.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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4/30/2016 7:20:57 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:19:59 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:18:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 6:51:33 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I would ask this fool how he knows any of this to be true, but he already showed me he has no idea if anything is true.

So have you, by refusing to even acknowledge the most basic challenge to your worldview 8 times already. Here goes #9...

http://www.debate.org...

How did I know he would run.

I am not certain challenging you is "running", bro.

How embarrassing for you.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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oo00
Posts: 134
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4/30/2016 7:24:16 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 6:29:49 PM, Double_R wrote:
Believers far and wide often contend that God created everything, including time, which means that he exists outside of time.

The very notion of this is self-contradictory. First of all creating anything, by definition, requires a sequence of events which necessitates time. You can't use time to create time.

Second, how could God (assuming you define him as a disembodied mind) exist outside of time and resemble anything we would even call a mind in the first place? When we talk about a mind we are talking about something that functions. A functioning mind requires a sequence of thoughts, which again, requires time.

Ultimately this whole concept is incoherent. Theists might assert that God thinks and acts in ways we do not understand, but this would be a cowardly cop out. The simple fact is if the belief you are asserting is self contradictory then your belief is by definition irrational. You can believe such things anyway, but at that point all attempts to justify it via rational discourse are dishonest. : :

Religious people believe God is the creator of time. I'm sure they never think about how much time it took him to create time.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

For the reality to be ultimate, it can't be time bound, it would have to apply universally. So it has to be understood that the concept of time is meaningless to the Holy set apart God.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
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4/30/2016 7:46:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound. If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

By this methodology, God has no free will.


For the reality to be ultimate, it can't be time bound, it would have to apply universally. So it has to be understood that the concept of time is meaningless to the Holy set apart God.

For reality to be ultimate, it would mean it cannot be mutable, which means God has no free will about sustaining reality as its beheld, so it has to be understood that God therefore has no agency: He is then a mind with no body.. and no mind.

This would mean God doesn't exist.
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SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/30/2016 8:20:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:46:39 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound. If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

By this methodology, God has no free will.

Quite the contrary, all is done according to the will of God.

However, it is true that The Greatest Master is also the servant of all, for nothing in creation exists apart from God.

For reality to be ultimate, it would mean it cannot be mutable, which means God has no free will about sustaining reality as its beheld, so it has to be understood that God therefore has no agency: He is then a mind with no body.. and no mind.

This would mean God doesn't exist.

God is unchanging, yes, but that is precisely because God is not time bound. You can't have change without time. It was God's will that the many worlds are as they are, otherwise it wouldn't be this way.

Everything is already done, it's finished. Creation is infinite, marvelous. This is the power of God.

And of course God exists, and any claim to the contrary is built on sand. It's disprovable at the assertion. Otherwise, you are saying, "It is the truth that there is no truth". If that is the claim, which it is if you deny God, then anything else you say can be discounted as deception.

I'm sure that isn't what you mean, but that is what you are saying.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
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4/30/2016 8:26:12 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:20:14 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:46:39 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound. If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

By this methodology, God has no free will.

Quite the contrary, all is done according to the will of God. However, it is true that The Greatest Master is also the servant of all, for nothing in creation exists apart from God.

But being subject to "all", God has a master, and is therefore not God.

Pick something and stick with it, please.


For reality to be ultimate, it would mean it cannot be mutable, which means God has no free will about sustaining reality as its beheld, so it has to be understood that God therefore has no agency: He is then a mind with no body.. and no mind.

This would mean God doesn't exist.


God is unchanging, yes, but that is precisely because God is not time bound.

It requires free will to change. Thank you for proving my point.

You can't have change without time. It was God's will that the many worlds are as they are, otherwise it wouldn't be this way. Everything is already done, it's finished. Creation is infinite, marvelous. This is the power of God.

And of course God exists, and any claim to the contrary is built on sand. It's disprovable at the assertion. Otherwise, you are saying, "It is the truth that there is no truth". If that is the claim, which it is if you deny God, then anything else you say can be discounted as deception.

Look, bro, it took you all of 2 posts to contradict yourself on what God isn't and is beholden to, so stating what I have to say (no matter how sound) is deception is really just vapid dissembling on your end.

I'm sure that isn't what you mean, but that is what you are saying.

It is what I mean. It is what I am saying. God doesn't exist, or has no free will. You are welcome to turn this into a presuppostional argument, just bear in mind baseless assertions, like the ones you have suggested will be continually recalled as to how authoritive you are on the matter.
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Double_R
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4/30/2016 8:41:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

Nor does it make sense for a being to exist outside of time.
SpiritandTruth
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4/30/2016 8:41:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:26:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:20:14 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:46:39 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound. If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

By this methodology, God has no free will.

Quite the contrary, all is done according to the will of God. However, it is true that The Greatest Master is also the servant of all, for nothing in creation exists apart from God.

But being subject to "all", God has a master, and is therefore not God.

Pick something and stick with it, please.

I am being consistent, I assure you. The contradictions are in your understanding.

God is not subject to anything, God willingly does what God does as the creator, the sustainer, and destroyer of all things. God is that God is. What is so hard about that?



For reality to be ultimate, it would mean it cannot be mutable, which means God has no free will about sustaining reality as its beheld, so it has to be understood that God therefore has no agency: He is then a mind with no body.. and no mind.

This would mean God doesn't exist.


God is unchanging, yes, but that is precisely because God is not time bound.

It requires free will to change. Thank you for proving my point.


Yet here we are, in a seemingly infinite and fractal universe. If God was exactly as God willed, there would be no need for change. God is perfect. God's will is done, whether or not you can make sense of it or not.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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4/30/2016 8:42:17 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:41:27 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

Nor does it make sense for a being to exist outside of time.

It does if you understand what "Ultimate Reality" means.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Double_R
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4/30/2016 8:43:09 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:42:17 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:41:27 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

Nor does it make sense for a being to exist outside of time.

It does if you understand what "Ultimate Reality" means.

Please enlighten me.
FaustianJustice
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4/30/2016 8:48:17 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound. If God was subject to time, God would have a master. If God had a master, it wouldn't be God.

By this methodology, God has no free will.

Quite the contrary, all is done according to the will of God. However, it is true that The Greatest Master is also the servant of all, for nothing in creation exists apart from God.

But being subject to "all", God has a master, and is therefore not God.

Pick something and stick with it, please.

I am being consistent, I assure you. The contradictions are in your understanding.

God is not subject to anything, God willingly does what God does as the creator, the sustainer, and destroyer of all things. God is that God is. What is so hard about that?

Your little snippet in saying: "The Greatest Master is also the servant of all". If God willing does as He desires, He might change at any time, should His desire take flight. This would mean that God does change, and time would be applicable to Him.




For reality to be ultimate, it would mean it cannot be mutable, which means God has no free will about sustaining reality as its beheld, so it has to be understood that God therefore has no agency: He is then a mind with no body.. and no mind.

This would mean God doesn't exist.


God is unchanging, yes, but that is precisely because God is not time bound.

It requires free will to change. Thank you for proving my point.


Yet here we are, in a seemingly infinite and fractal universe. If God was exactly as God willed, there would be no need for change. God is perfect. God's will is done, whether or not you can make sense of it or not.

Why is it so hard for theists to admit the thing they worship is illogical? You are allowed to worship incoherent constructs, its just when you start calling what you just stated "logical" and important for us to share in your illogical construct that the problem lay.
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SpiritandTruth
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4/30/2016 8:58:55 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:43:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:42:17 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:41:27 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

Nor does it make sense for a being to exist outside of time.

It does if you understand what "Ultimate Reality" means.

Please enlighten me.

I will post relevant definitions from Merriam Webster.

ultimate
1
a : most remote in space or time : farthest
b : last in a progression or series : final <their ultimate destination was Paris>
c : eventual 2 <they hoped for ultimate success>
d : the best or most extreme of its kind : utmost <the ultimate sacrifice>
2 arrived at as the last result <the ultimate question>
3
a : basic, fundamental <the ultimate nature of things " A. N. Whitehead>
b : original 1 <the ultimate source>
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation


Emphasis on definitions 2, and especially 3.

reality

1 the quality or state of being real
2
a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality> (2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality>
b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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4/30/2016 9:01:06 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:48:17 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Why is it so hard for theists to admit the thing they worship is illogical? You are allowed to worship incoherent constructs, its just when you start calling what you just stated "logical" and important for us to share in your illogical construct that the problem lay.

lol. Arrogant people like you who lack comprehension and presume to know much about things they don't understand make it easy.

If you think that "Ultimate Reality" is illogical, that is a testament to how illogical you yourself are.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Double_R
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4/30/2016 9:04:19 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 8:58:55 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:43:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:42:17 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:41:27 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 7:31:47 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It doesn't make sense for an omnipresent and omnipotent being to be time bound.

Nor does it make sense for a being to exist outside of time.

It does if you understand what "Ultimate Reality" means.

Please enlighten me.

I will post relevant definitions from Merriam Webster.

ultimate
1
a : most remote in space or time : farthest
b : last in a progression or series : final <their ultimate destination was Paris>
c : eventual 2 <they hoped for ultimate success>
d : the best or most extreme of its kind : utmost <the ultimate sacrifice>
2 arrived at as the last result <the ultimate question>
3
a : basic, fundamental <the ultimate nature of things " A. N. Whitehead>
b : original 1 <the ultimate source>
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation


Emphasis on definitions 2, and especially 3.


reality

1 the quality or state of being real
2
a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality> (2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality>
b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily


I know what "ultimate" and "reality" mean, I am asking you to finally provide a coherent pairing of the two words.
FaustianJustice
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4/30/2016 9:11:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 9:01:06 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 4/30/2016 8:48:17 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Why is it so hard for theists to admit the thing they worship is illogical? You are allowed to worship incoherent constructs, its just when you start calling what you just stated "logical" and important for us to share in your illogical construct that the problem lay.


lol. Arrogant people like you who lack comprehension and presume to know much about things they don't understand make it easy.

So is God the servant to all, or does He have no Master? You sort of are contradicting yourself, here. Hurdle that, then get back to me.

If you think that "Ultimate Reality" is illogical, that is a testament to how illogical you yourself are.

Ultimate infers there are others. By all means, please offer up what inferior realities there are, or alternate realities there are, or quasi realities there are which makes a scale for an ultimate reality to be found and crowned.

Until you stop speaking in koans, there is no reason to take you seriously.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/30/2016 9:13:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
The all encompassing, undivided, true existence. The way things really are. What is true independent of observation and postulation. The Truth.

There are a lot of things implied by the definition.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Double_R
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4/30/2016 9:15:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 9:13:51 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
The all encompassing, undivided, true existence. The way things really are. What is true independent of observation and postulation. The Truth.

That's called reality. Why do you need to put the word "Ultimate" in front of it?
SpiritandTruth
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4/30/2016 9:16:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 9:11:52 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So is God the servant to all, or does He have no Master? You sort of are contradicting yourself, here. Hurdle that, then get back to me.

Without God, there would be nothing. Without God, the universe could not be.

God effortlessly sustains what God created. It's not a contradiction.

Ultimate infers there are others. By all means, please offer up what inferior realities there are, or alternate realities there are, or quasi realities there are which makes a scale for an ultimate reality to be found and crowned.

Until you stop speaking in koans, there is no reason to take you seriously.

Ultimate actually implies that all other realities are contained and accounted for.

Certainly, there are many realities, and it is silly to deny this. However, there is One Ultimate Reality.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/30/2016 9:17:22 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/30/2016 9:15:08 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/30/2016 9:13:51 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
The all encompassing, undivided, true existence. The way things really are. What is true independent of observation and postulation. The Truth.

That's called reality. Why do you need to put the word "Ultimate" in front of it?

Because there are many realities, but The Ultimate Reality is by definition singular.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,