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Why did God create us?

JimDavis
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5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?
uncung
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5/4/2016 12:14:35 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56
janesix
Posts: 3,491
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5/4/2016 12:51:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?
Maybe to have someone to talk to.
EtrnlVw
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5/4/2016 1:41:51 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

To create purpose where there was none. God is also personal, creating other personal creatures that are sentient is blissful and absolutely amazing. God is a tricky fella, a Mad Scientist lol.


For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

Most important to God I would believe is that each individual come into a relation and fellowship with Him after everything said and done which would be happiness for both God and us. There will be those who want that and those who won't, which makes free will creatures to God even more tantalizing.
I don't think God wants us to live certain ways just because He likes to boss people around or torment them, He wants us to learn what is righteous and what is valuable. Walking in the light of God and being willing to learn from Him would most certainly make Him happier, in that sense God "needs" us to fulfill something He desires, then adding to Him in small ways but significant.


I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

If you never created other beings what would you do with yourself? could you really cope with that forever?
Sure, I can see what you mean about maximizing happiness but what a small view we have compared to God and eternity, how many angles we don't see, there are more aspects to this than you may realize. Don't forget there are people who pursue evil, that bring evil into this world along with pain and suffering. The foods we eat, the habits we pick up, the air we breathe in the cities ect ect...these are free will events that God chooses not to interfere with, that's what makes life so intimate, individual and personal. If God slapped band aids on things here and there what would we learn? and if God starts tampering with our will where does it end? if God did this He should do that, He should then have to interfere in every affair to justify that.

Maybe God does intend to maximize happiness in ways but created a door or window to reach that possibility.... that maybe evil doers cannot reach?


But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

I think God creates to give purpose and meaning, as God has no purpose for His existence since He was never created. Creation is God's most pleasurable experience.
JimDavis
Posts: 56
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5/4/2016 4:31:59 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 1:41:51 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Most important to God I would believe is that each individual come into a relation and fellowship with Him after everything said and done which would be happiness for both God and us.

Ok, so God's most important purpose for creating us is so that we can freely choose to have a relationship with him. But does he need this relationship from every single one of the billions he created? Does it impact his happiness in a large way? It seems like you said it impacted his happiness in only a small way - but I wasn't sure.

So if I don't choose to have a relationship with God, or am unaware of him, would this ultimately result in misery for me? If so, that's the part I don't get. I understand if God designs us to be happier when we befriend him. But an all-powerful God doesn't have to design us such that we are miserable (especially forever) if we don't choose to love him, right? In short, I don't understand a how benevolent God could want us to enter into a relationship with him more than he wants us to be happy.

If I created other beings, and I valued when they freely chose to love me, I wouldn't allow great pain or suffering to result from them not choosing to love me. Otherwise, their choice isn't as free - they might choose it to avoid suffering, and that would be cheap love. Also, I would not set a cutoff after which it's too late for someone to choose to have a relationship with me. In addition, I would reveal myself to each of my creatures, such that they know clearly that I love them and want a relationship with them. If I DID choose to be hidden, I would not consider someone who failed to have relationship with me to have rejected me.

If you never created other beings what would you do with yourself? could you really cope with that forever?

Depends on my nature. Many theists' understanding of God is someone who is perfectly happy by nature. Some view the trinity as a relationship and love "built into" God. Also God is typically understood as timeless, rather than experiencing an infinite amount of time during which to get bored.

Sure, I can see what you mean about maximizing happiness but what a small view we have compared to God and eternity, how many angles we don't see, there are more aspects to this than you may realize.

But one possible solution has already been conceived by many religious people - heaven! If God's greatest goal is maximizing happiness, the obvious choice is to create everyone in heaven to begin with, instead of setting up what seems to be an elaborate test first. Yet the ability for us to be able to choose evil seems to be more important to God. This is strange considering that many view God as being unable to choose evil, yet still having free will.
AWSM0055
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5/4/2016 4:35:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

Plastic bags.

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation?

No, clearly.

Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way?

No, it is more important that we creat plastic bags and warm up the earth. That is our objective and purpose on this God forsaken planet.

Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him?

No, there was simply too much oil clogging the earth, so he create humans.

God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God?

God is important in answering the great unknowns in life...temporarily...

This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

Plastic bags ain't gonna make themselves!

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

Accept the truth and move on. We are all plastic bag breeders. Now be proud of your purpose and go serve your God!

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

He caresses plastic bags, chocking the life out of an unsuspecting turtle...
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

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SpiritandTruth
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5/4/2016 4:53:23 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Observation tells us that God by nature is a creative being.

I'm educated sufficiently in physics to find the question "Why?" to be inherently obnoxious. I can't avoid filtering that question through my understanding of causality, which renders the question "why" practically worthless to me outside of formulaic means of exercising utility.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
JimDavis
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5/4/2016 5:54:02 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 4:53:23 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Observation tells us that God by nature is a creative being.

Do you think God is free to choose whether or not to create? But my topic goes a bit further to ponder God's reasons for creating us, and what purpose he wants us to serve, if any.

I'm educated sufficiently in physics to find the question "Why?" to be inherently obnoxious. I can't avoid filtering that question through my understanding of causality, which renders the question "why" practically worthless to me outside of formulaic means of exercising utility.

In physics, I understand that "why" is often not an appropriate question, since it assumes a purpose or intention, usually from a mind, when in fact there may be none. Instead "how" is usually preferred.

But in this case, we're talking about the choices of a thinking being who has intentions and reason, correct? So asking "why" seems quite relevant. How else could I phrase my question to be less obnoxious?
SpiritandTruth
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5/4/2016 6:06:34 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 5:54:02 AM, JimDavis wrote:
At 5/4/2016 4:53:23 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Observation tells us that God by nature is a creative being.

Do you think God is free to choose whether or not to create? But my topic goes a bit further to ponder God's reasons for creating us, and what purpose he wants us to serve, if any.

I'm educated sufficiently in physics to find the question "Why?" to be inherently obnoxious. I can't avoid filtering that question through my understanding of causality, which renders the question "why" practically worthless to me outside of formulaic means of exercising utility.

In physics, I understand that "why" is often not an appropriate question, since it assumes a purpose or intention, usually from a mind, when in fact there may be none. Instead "how" is usually preferred.

But in this case, we're talking about the choices of a thinking being who has intentions and reason, correct? So asking "why" seems quite relevant. How else could I phrase my question to be less obnoxious?

Really, I think you are asking the wrong questions.

God is the way things are. It's pretty obvious that God is a creative being. To ask, "Does God have a choice in the matter?" is a bit absurd. God does whatever God wants to, and it looks like God uses that will to create stuff. Not only does God appear to create stuff, but God appears to unceasingly create stuff.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
JimDavis
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5/4/2016 7:13:00 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 6:06:34 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 5/4/2016 5:54:02 AM, JimDavis wrote:
At 5/4/2016 4:53:23 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Really, I think you are asking the wrong questions.

You come off as a bit cryptic to me. Why are these questions to be avoided? If God created us for a purpose, wouldn't it be important for us to consider what it is? Do you think we aren't capable of understanding why God created us? What related questions should I be asking instead?

To ask, "Does God have a choice in the matter?" is a bit absurd.

Why is this absurd? The answer to this question has profound implications to our understanding of the God concept. The character of a God who created us because he wanted to is different from a God who created us because he had to. And if God chose to create us, the reasons for him creating us would have implications about God's nature and the nature of our world.

Ultimately, the reason for me asking these questions is to examine each of these God concepts for logical consistency, and also see if it harmonizes with the world we can perceive. If not, that concept of God may be wrong.

God does whatever God wants to

So you appear to answer my question after all. God created us by choice.

Not only does God appear to create stuff, but God appears to unceasingly create stuff.

Although a bit off topic, I can't help wondering at this statement. You can point to examples of God apparently creating stuff right now?
SpiritandTruth
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5/4/2016 1:35:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 7:13:00 AM, JimDavis wrote:
Although a bit off topic, I can't help wondering at this statement. You can point to examples of God apparently creating stuff right now?

Your thoughts, imagination, perception. The fact that you are in a different state now than you were a minute ago. Time.

Or if you want detailed stuff, look into quantum information theory. Information cannot be destroyed or cloned, but it is all there, etched forever into eternity.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
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5/4/2016 1:49:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

For the same reason we put rats in a maze.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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brontoraptor
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5/4/2016 4:53:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

Do demonstrate our love for Him by allowing darkness to face us. Then when we are child-like in Heaven, He will know exactly who and what we are, and our love for Him will take on meaning.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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MadCornishBiker
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5/4/2016 7:47:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

That is a very simple question to answer, and is covered in Genesis chapter 2, where Jehovah introduces Adam to his intended role.

Quite simply put, the intention was for Adam and his descendants to expand the Garden of Eden to cover the entire land area of the globe, then maintain and enjoy it, a simple task before Adam fell.

That does rather confirm the truth of the old saying that you are never nearer to God than in a garden.

That was the entire purpose of humanity, and will be brought back to what it originally was.

God's plans will not fail.
fire_wings
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5/4/2016 9:11:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
I believe he did it for us to worship him (which I don't)
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Jovian
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5/4/2016 9:23:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 12:14:35 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.
MadCornishBiker
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5/4/2016 9:29:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 9:11:47 PM, fire_wings wrote:
I believe he did it for us to worship him (which I don't)

Not according to the Bible.

In fact, apart from the declared purpose in Genesis scripture also tells us we were created for his only begotten son.

Reference Bible Col 1:16
16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

King James Version Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

American Standard Version Col 1:16
16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Byington Col 1:16
16 because in him everything was created in the heavens and on earth, the visible and the invisible, be it thrones or lordships or governments or dominions"everything has been created through him and to come to him,
MadCornishBiker
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5/4/2016 9:31:15 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 9:23:41 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 5/4/2016 12:14:35 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.

Typical of the teachings in Satan's book, the Q'ran.
Militants
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5/4/2016 11:54:21 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Big Satan can take their victims in a very cruel way. He can roar inside his victims then he can even crueler thing if he can be like that as at close distance, he can prevent a vulnerable human being so he grilled. My cast prevents me from a distance then eat not my food so I will be starving. Far away he hinder me. Big Satan can hinder close to he. My voice he is stupidify far away only. Why not come closer and we can speak togheter ?
uncung
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5/5/2016 1:04:51 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 9:23:41 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 5/4/2016 12:14:35 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.

The God doesn't need our worshiping. We do the one who need to worship Him.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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5/5/2016 1:05:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.

Typical of the teachings in Satan's book, the Q'ran.

What do you know about satan's book?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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5/5/2016 2:28:19 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/3/2016 11:52:15 PM, JimDavis wrote:
Assuming God exists, what is his MOST IMPORTANT purpose in creating humans?

For example, is God's most important objective to maximize the happiness and well-being of his creation? Or is it more important that we maximize his own glory or greatness in some way? Perhaps his ultimate desire is for us to acknowledge his greatness and worship him? God may have more than one purpose, but which do you think is the most important to God? This also brings up the question of whether God needs us in any way, or if we add to his "life" in some way, like making him happier.

I'm trying to imagine myself creating other beings. Let's assume that I don't need to create other beings and am happy without them. Let's also assume that I'm very benevolent. In this case, my first choice would NOT be to create beings who are vulnerable to pain and suffering. But if I did, my most important objective would be to maximize the happiness of these other beings I created, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own happiness. If fact, to some extent, I would even be willing to maximize their happiness at the expense of my own - many parents feel this way.

But that's just me. What would you do, and what do you think God does, if he exists?

I'm going to take this as an open definition to god. I can't answer for any religion, or may correlate ideas with some on accident, but i can only answer this question by what makes sense to me.

If there is immortality, if there is a "spiritual" realm, if in this endless realm there are creator(s); what does that ultimately mean? Firstly, it would be hard to define i assume. If there is an eternal realm with beings that can create, they must be much more advanced than we are i am assume do to the length of time (or lack thereof) they have been "conscious" (aware sentience). The first assumption sets me up to not be able to answer this question. But not being to answer the question makes me (personally) try to think outside - way outside - the box.

It brings me to a point of speculation of what we are and create. Why would anything create a place like this? Why not make the world like X-men... wouldn't that be more fun? This point stops me, not everyone likes X-men or would want a world like that. Not everyone likes this world... There would always be a disagreement on what to create... if there is sociability in this eternal realm. This however makes me think of the definition of this "eternal realm." If one could create different worlds, anything they want, would they not create more than just one? Why would an immortal sentience stay immortal?

I believe there is a social side to the afterlife... that there is more than one "god." I wouldn't even say god... bc that would mean everything is a figment of this "gods" imagination. On top of being eternal, now this god is alone. Would that not be the ultimate conclusion of a monotheistic god? Everything created through it... that would technically make it alone, and the controller of its loneliness.

So... one purpose of god... to live in as many realms as it can to escape its eternal loneliness. This just happens to be one movie... called earth. There are many more in which god would just live in ... to escape eternal darkness. Of course in these worlds we have free will bc that is the point of this "god" to live here... to escape its eternal control. How fun is it if "eternally" everything mirrored what you want?

This brings me to other thoughts however, and ultimately closest to what i believe. Wouldn't this god know all of these detriments, cons, negatives... to eternity? If there is an immortal intelligence, in all this time would it not have figured out that eternity alone is more like hell? That it has the ability to create and give free will as a trick in its own creations? So... why would it not give free will in the "eternal realm"? Why would it pick to be god? Would it not willingly want others separated from him/her?

Now, i call this god the first source. I believe that intelligence, consciousnesses, sentience, so forth, has been evolving eternally. Mortality is just a shell to live experience. I mention many subjective words in my previous paragraphs, that is why we are a subjective being... we all have eternal free will. This source may have first started its sentience alone, but once it figured (thought of) social interaction... it will never go back to one; furthermore, make sure it isn't the only one. We are gazillions of "gods." I think this source evolved just like we have been... every world that has our sentience in it has a shell for every character grown from this source. All characters are just living... not every source the same. Some intelligent, some primitive, some creative, some creators...

I am doing a direct correlation to what i see bc like i said that is all i can know or speculate on; however, (not to boast) i have the ability to go pretty out the box. I hope i demonstrated this. It is hard to put everything in my head on "paper." I just have a speculation that we all have an immortal self (source)... that has been separated an infinite time from the first source... we are all just travelers in my opinion. So why not live an average (at this point) 70 years here? For those of a higher capacity this could have been a choice, lower capacity whim choice, primitive just looking for a world that has started so they can live, etc...

"if the world/earth (realm) has it they will come." Every personality evolved from thought in an eternal setting... this would mean an infinite amount of characters and worlds - yet finite to our awareness. Where this awareness is or how far does it reach, i can't tell you. What exactly is our source, i can't tell you. I can only attest to what i know of myself, what kind of source i am, my purpose and so forth. Maybe why i feel more powerful the more self aware i am, and free. But of course, this is subjective to me. Your purpose and path is different than mine. Only you can define it.

This is my hypothesis of what could be if god (thought) evolved in an eternal setting, void of matter and time. It is just my opinion which i know holds little weight due to it being anecdotal, but hey... i think about these things too. I have come to these conclusions from experiences, both "supernatural" and just life... so, that also taints it to a scientific mind, but i have always hoped that this be only be a viable leap of logic. My argument is to find a "spiritual" platform that is viable to what we know. Right now, the "spiritual" is a mess... it is a scattered puzzle. How are you suppose to see the picture if it is scattered... but, maybe that mess will only make sense once it is all considered forever in its own subjective way... many answers, many worlds, endlessness of traveling through this void for whatever reason the observer wants.

Other thoughts... to get along with each other to decrease immortal wars, we are dead immortals, to get along with opposites (girl/guy, gay/straight, etc...), the matrix (had to do this one lol), hell or punishment, new souls are born this way, or just nothing.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/5/2016 8:35:44 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 1:05:43 AM, uncung wrote:
"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.

Typical of the teachings in Satan's book, the Q'ran.

What do you know about satan's book?

I've read as much as I could without bursting into laughter, I had my own copy once.

Same goes for his other comparative edition the Book of Mormon.

I even had a copy of Hindu religious book which I recall as the Gita, though that's only the last part of it's name.

Of all the religious books I have ever read, and there have been a few, the Bible is the only one which appeared remotely logical.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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5/5/2016 11:49:50 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/4/2016 4:31:59 AM, JimDavis wrote:
At 5/4/2016 1:41:51 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Most important to God I would believe is that each individual come into a relation and fellowship with Him after everything said and done which would be happiness for both God and us.

Ok, so God's most important purpose for creating us is so that we can freely choose to have a relationship with him. But does he need this relationship from every single one of the billions he created? Does it impact his happiness in a large way? It seems like you said it impacted his happiness in only a small way - but I wasn't sure.

I said small, but significant. However small doesn't matter, it would still be significant to God. Here is the rest of what I wrote "Walking in the light of God and being willing to learn from Him would most certainly make Him happier, in that sense God "needs" us to fulfill something He desires, then adding to Him in small ways but significant.


So if I don't choose to have a relationship with God, or am unaware of him, would this ultimately result in misery for me? If so, that's the part I don't get. I understand if God designs us to be happier when we befriend him. But an all-powerful God doesn't have to design us such that we are miserable (especially forever) if we don't choose to love him, right? In short, I don't understand a how benevolent God could want us to enter into a relationship with him more than he wants us to be happy.

No, you won't necessarily be in misery though that could happen if your soul is pulling you towards God and you won't let it. You can live your life here on this earth without ever relating to God and have all the fun you want. Anyone can live this life and find fulfillment and temporary meanings and purposes.
You can enjoy two aspects and natures of this life, the material and the spiritual. I say have both and possess the fullness of life and not just one aspect of it.
Maybe God knows more than you, maybe He knows how much you need Him and would want Him but you don't, that's your choice. How do you know being in a relation with God won't make you happier, more fulfilled or learn all kinds of things you never knew or thought possible? do you not think God would be an amazing friend/companionship?? umm, this is God we're talking about here!


If I created other beings, and I valued when they freely chose to love me, I wouldn't allow great pain or suffering to result from them not choosing to love me. Otherwise, their choice isn't as free - they might choose it to avoid suffering, and that would be cheap love. Also, I would not set a cutoff after which it's too late for someone to choose to have a relationship with me. In addition, I would reveal myself to each of my creatures, such that they know clearly that I love them and want a relationship with them. If I DID choose to be hidden, I would not consider someone who failed to have relationship with me to have rejected me.


Wait a minute, you're beginning to create straw men and assuming things I've never said. I never said if someone doesn't freely choose to love God they will be in great pain, where did you get that from? I'm talking about fulfillment not depravity. However, one can be deprived spiritually, they may also not even notice it to a degree because a person can completely ignore it and not be aware of it...
God is not hidden my friend, it's the nature of God that atheists don't recognize, see or want to consider. The knowledge has been given, the spiritual reality has been testified to and the prescriptions are in Christian teachings. We have to apply and become involved, then we harvest from God what we sought.


If you never created other beings what would you do with yourself? could you really cope with that forever?

Depends on my nature. Many theists' understanding of God is someone who is perfectly happy by nature. Some view the trinity as a relationship and love "built into" God. Also God is typically understood as timeless, rather than experiencing an infinite amount of time during which to get bored.

Well I'm not assuming God is not perfectly happy, however I don't assume He is either. God doesn't have to be unhappy or bored to create, He could just be curious or He could just be extremely passionate. Also, I said it could add to God, not complete Him, there is a difference there. I don't see any good reason why God would not be interested in creating, or creating sentient beings...


Sure, I can see what you mean about maximizing happiness but what a small view we have compared to God and eternity, how many angles we don't see, there are more aspects to this than you may realize.

But one possible solution has already been conceived by many religious people - heaven! If God's greatest goal is maximizing happiness, the obvious choice is to create everyone in heaven to begin with, instead of setting up what seems to be an elaborate test first. Yet the ability for us to be able to choose evil seems to be more important to God. This is strange considering that many view God as being unable to choose evil, yet still having free will.

No, we were meant to walk in the Spirit while we are here, heaven on earth, that is what prepares the way for the next. The test, of course, is to see who wants to be with God and who doesn't, and of course the people who don't are free to live their lives as they please. As you can see even from within this forum lots of people don't want to be with God that's a fact, that's why we have this cultivation process before we engage God in His actual presence. We were meant to learn, apply, observe and choose, but this is a spiritual observation.

The reason there is an emphasis on choosing "evil" is because that's the opposite of the nature of God, by choosing evil we automatically disregard (not choose) God, they go hand in hand, it's an indicator of what a person truly wants. I don't think it's a matter of God not having free will, rather His desires and nature prevent Him from choosing it.

You can also see in scripture, that even created Beings that were already in heaven also chose to fall, to rebel and hate God, so this is no solution really. If a person loves God, wants His relations they will pursue Him, just as I have.
Athomos
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5/5/2016 11:54:21 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
A point of clarification:

There is zero evidence that a God created mankind. There is also no evidence that a God exists.

Carry on.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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5/5/2016 12:00:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 8:35:44 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 1:05:43 AM, uncung wrote:
"And I (the God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

Quran 51:56

LOOOOOOL. What a completely low self esteem God has if he need worshippers. Whereas human football players could easily score a penalty shot on a stadium where 50 000 people are booing at them.

Typical of the teachings in Satan's book, the Q'ran.

What do you know about satan's book?

I've read as much as I could without bursting into laughter, I had my own copy once.

Same goes for his other comparative edition the Book of Mormon.

I even had a copy of Hindu religious book which I recall as the Gita, though that's only the last part of it's name.

Of all the religious books I have ever read, and there have been a few, the Bible is the only one which appeared remotely logical.

Why is the Bible the only one which appeared remotely logical?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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5/5/2016 12:01:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 11:54:21 AM, Athomos wrote:
A point of clarification:

There is zero evidence that a God created mankind. There is also no evidence that a God exists.


Carry on.

Sorry Athomos, that's a matter of perception. Obviously the atheist rejects the reality of a spiritual dimension, that's called an ideology not facts.
To say there is no evidence is misleading, materialists reject the nature of evidence for spirituality, again that does not make it fact or truth, just an opinion.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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5/5/2016 12:03:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 12:01:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 5/5/2016 11:54:21 AM, Athomos wrote:
A point of clarification:

There is zero evidence that a God created mankind. There is also no evidence that a God exists.


Carry on.

Sorry Athomos, that's a matter of perception. Obviously the atheist rejects the reality of a spiritual dimension, that's called an ideology not facts.
To say there is no evidence is misleading, materialists reject the nature of evidence for spirituality, again that does not make it fact or truth, just an opinion.

You might want to work on your standards of evidence.