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What it means to be a Jew

Rukado
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5/5/2016 5:33:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Ask any Christian what it means to be Christian, and you'll get something like:
#1 Faith in Christ
#2 Love of God
#3 Love of neighbor
#4 Help the needy
#5 Living a virtuous life

Here's a graph (https://www.graphiq.com...), published by USA Today, about what it means to be a Jew. Love and God have nothing to do with being a Jew.

What is means to be a Jew (translated):
#1 Victimhood (the holocaust card)
#2 Caring for their cows and goys
#3 Social engineering (attacking freedom and Christian values)
#4 Being critical of God and western tradition.
#5 Allegiance to Israel.
Rukado
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5/6/2016 12:42:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

Do you have a plastic badge to go along with playing PC cop? You should really feel bad for not being able to respond to what I posted.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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5/6/2016 5:12:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 12:42:46 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

Do you have a plastic badge to go along with playing PC cop? You should really feel bad for not being able to respond to what I posted.

I did respond. I responded that it was a wholly dishonest post and that you should feel bad for posting it.
DPMartin
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5/6/2016 5:59:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 5:33:56 PM, Rukado wrote:
Ask any Christian what it means to be Christian, and you'll get something like:
#1 Faith in Christ
#2 Love of God
#3 Love of neighbor
#4 Help the needy
#5 Living a virtuous life

Here's a graph (https://www.graphiq.com...), published by USA Today, about what it means to be a Jew. Love and God have nothing to do with being a Jew.

What is means to be a Jew (translated):
#1 Victimhood (the holocaust card)
#2 Caring for their cows and goys
#3 Social engineering (attacking freedom and Christian values)
#4 Being critical of God and western tradition.
#5 Allegiance to Israel.

what's your point?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/6/2016 6:30:23 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Really?

As if the atheist trolls on here weren't bad enough...

Besides everyone knows being Jewish is about Matzah balls...
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/6/2016 7:28:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 5:12:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
I did respond. I responded that it was a wholly dishonest post and that you should feel bad for posting it.

A cowardly condemnation of someone for daring to post on a certain topic is not the same as responding to the contents of that post. Really, it shows weakness and impotence.

Does you PC cop tricycle have "police lights that really work"?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/6/2016 7:35:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 5:33:56 PM, Rukado wrote:
Ask any Christian what it means to be Christian, and you'll get something like:
#1 Faith in Christ
#2 Love of God
#3 Love of neighbor
#4 Help the needy
#5 Living a virtuous life

Here's a graph (https://www.graphiq.com...), published by USA Today, about what it means to be a Jew. Love and God have nothing to do with being a Jew.

What is means to be a Jew (translated):
#1 Victimhood (the holocaust card)
#2 Caring for their cows and goys
#3 Social engineering (attacking freedom and Christian values)
#4 Being critical of God and western tradition.
#5 Allegiance to Israel.

As far as I am able to work it out being a Jew requires one to:

1: Ignore messianic prophecies
2: Pretend what Messianic prophecies you can find haven't been fulfilled at the time they were foretold to
3: claim that prophecies abut the Messiah not dues for fulfilment have failed when really they simple aren't due yet.
4: ignore the vast majority of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell them about their God.
5: Going round bemoaning the fact that their God apparently abandoned them without ever asking themselves why he did exactly as he had promised to.
6: Pretend to follow a Law Code which it is now impossible for them to actually follow ever since shortly after it ceased to be a Law Code rather than the collection of principles it now is.

At least that is what their own scriptures tell me it takes.
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2016 7:38:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 6:30:23 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Really?

As if the atheist trolls on here weren't bad enough...


Besides everyone knows being Jewish is about Matzah balls...

Didn't know Matzah's had them.

Sorry couldn't resist.
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2016 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 5:33:56 PM, Rukado wrote:
Ask any Christian what it means to be Christian, and you'll get something like:
#1 Faith in Christ
#2 Love of God
#3 Love of neighbor
#4 Help the needy
#5 Living a virtuous life

Here's a graph (https://www.graphiq.com...), published by USA Today, about what it means to be a Jew. Love and God have nothing to do with being a Jew.

What is means to be a Jew (translated):
#1 Victimhood (the holocaust card)
#2 Caring for their cows and goys
#3 Social engineering (attacking freedom and Christian values)
#4 Being critical of God and western tradition.
#5 Allegiance to Israel.

Sorry, I forgot.

Being a Christian means imitating Christ and the Apostles as far as humanly possible, and doing Jehovah's will

Matthew 7:21-23 Matthew 10 (all of)
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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5/6/2016 7:43:40 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:28:00 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/6/2016 5:12:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
I did respond. I responded that it was a wholly dishonest post and that you should feel bad for posting it.

A cowardly condemnation of someone for daring to post on a certain topic is not the same as responding to the contents of that post. Really, it shows weakness and impotence.

Does you PC cop tricycle have "police lights that really work"?

LOL Rukado you defiantly belong here.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/6/2016 8:07:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:35:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
As far as I am able to work it out being a Jew requires one to:

1: Ignore messianic prophecies
2: Pretend what Messianic prophecies you can find haven't been fulfilled at the time they were foretold to
3: claim that prophecies abut the Messiah not dues for fulfilment have failed when really they simple aren't due yet.
4: ignore the vast majority of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell them about their God.
5: Going round bemoaning the fact that their God apparently abandoned them without ever asking themselves why he did exactly as he had promised to.
6: Pretend to follow a Law Code which it is now impossible for them to actually follow ever since shortly after it ceased to be a Law Code rather than the collection of principles it now is.

At least that is what their own scriptures tell me it takes.

The Jews' own scripture is the Talmud (Christians, Muslims, and Jews all claim the Old Testament as scripture, separately we have the New Testament, Koran, and Talmud, respectively). The Talmud, like the Koran, was written down centuries after Jesus, but Jews consider it to be as scriptural (to the degree they believe in divine inspiration).

From the Christian perspective, Jews do ignore messianic prophecies. Jesus said the unbelieving Jews didn't believe Moses and the prophets.

Biblical Jews became Christians. Post-Jesus Jews are Talmudists. Their scripture denies that Jesus is the messiah. It says Jesus is in H3ll, in boiling semen. (http://www.come-and-hear.com...)

So then, it's no longer an issue of Jews ignoring messianic prophecy. It's a matter of their scriptures teaching that Jesus isn't the Messiah. It's just like Muslims deny Jesus died because the Korean says Jesus didn't die, but it was only made to appear that Jesus died on the cross.
DPMartin
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5/6/2016 8:30:55 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:07:58 PM, Rukado wrote:

The Jews' own scripture is the Talmud (Christians, Muslims, and Jews all claim the Old Testament as scripture, separately we have the New Testament, Koran, and Talmud, respectively). The Talmud, like the Koran, was written down centuries after Jesus, but Jews consider it to be as scriptural (to the degree they believe in divine inspiration).

From the Christian perspective, Jews do ignore messianic prophecies. Jesus said the unbelieving Jews didn't believe Moses and the prophets.

Biblical Jews became Christians. Post-Jesus Jews are Talmudists. Their scripture denies that Jesus is the messiah. It says Jesus is in H3ll, in boiling semen. (http://www.come-and-hear.com...)

So then, it's no longer an issue of Jews ignoring messianic prophecy. It's a matter of their scriptures teaching that Jesus isn't the Messiah. It's just like Muslims deny Jesus died because the Korean says Jesus didn't die, but it was only made to appear that Jesus died on the cross.

well the stage is being set for the what is understood as the anti-Christ or the one who will deceive the whole world. and that would have to happen with Israel's blessing, not God's blessing mind you, but Israel's. in all this process starting with the WZO back just before year 1900 the main population of Jews didn't heed the call to return to Israel. probably because they saw that it was much better where they were. but the Lord their God let that change and it wasn't so much better for them any more. hence things like WWII. so the next step in their relationship they have with the Lord their God could be their looking to alliances in the world for support and protection rather then the Lord their God who is a jealous God and insists on their response to Him, of which I suspect the change to that is coming soon to a world war near you.

according to scripture they will eventually call open the name of the Lord, and game over.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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5/7/2016 12:02:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:28:00 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/6/2016 5:12:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
I did respond. I responded that it was a wholly dishonest post and that you should feel bad for posting it.

A cowardly condemnation of someone for daring to post on a certain topic is not the same as responding to the contents of that post. Really, it shows weakness and impotence.

Does you PC cop tricycle have "police lights that really work"?

You are correct in that I did not respond to the content of your post.

Because I found it to be dishonest tripe.

Post something more honest and we'll see if it's worthy of an in depth response. Do you think that is within your capabilities?
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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5/7/2016 6:19:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I don't know exactly why I'm replying to this. I guess I'm bored, and it's low hanging fruit just awaiting total annihilation, so why not.

So before getting into the meat of this, I guess we'll have to make some assumptions about what the posters point is. Since the point isn't really articulated to any degree, we'll have to assume that the listing of, what we can assume are, positive characteristics attributed to Christians, and the negative characteristics attributed to Jews, means that the basic thesis of this post is as follows:

Christians are good. Jews are bad.

Even being as charitable as possible, which I will attempt to do in my entire response here, I find deriving any other potential point here, entirely impossible.

I'm not making any type of value judgement on that thesis that Christians are good and Jews are bad, I am merely stating that this appears to be the point, and that since this is the point, that the OP must have a reasonable way of showing this to be the case.

So let's get to it.

At 5/5/2016 5:33:56 PM, Rukado wrote:
Ask any Christian what it means to be Christian, and you'll get something like:
#1 Faith in Christ
#2 Love of God
#3 Love of neighbor
#4 Help the needy
#5 Living a virtuous life

I suppose that if it is true, that any Christian will give these responses and act upon these in a meaningful way, then it is true that Christians are good. I'm not going to dispute this. Certainly there are good Christians, and if the values espoused broadly and those included here are manifested into the world on a mass scale, clearly this is a good thing.

Here's a graph (https://www.graphiq.com...), published by USA Today, about what it means to be a Jew. Love and God have nothing to do with being a Jew.

So this is where we get to the "Jews are bad" portion of the thesis. To do this, the author is going to cite a Pew research poll, although it appears that all he did was look at a simple image of the results and then interpret that limited data in an intentionally negative way.

What is means to be a Jew (translated):

As mentioned above, the following is going to be an intentional misinterpretation of the information in a way to spin the results in any way that can frame the Jews as somehow bad. This goal of this "translation", as the poster puts it, is to, as mentioned above, make the case that "the Jews are bad". This is the start of the intellectual dishonesty of the poster, though the case could be made that attribution of positive characteristics of Christians by mere assertion above isn't intellectually honest either, but I'd rather focus on the latter part of this post.

Before getting to the specifics, I'd just like to mention that the actual 2013 Pew research, which has been intentionally left out of this "Jews are bad" thread by the poster, is actually an interesting read for those interested. It shows a wide range of culture and beliefs across Jewry, and, perhaps ironically due to the context of this thread, shows a lot of similarity of values of evangelicals and Orthodox Jews. Articles about the research can be viewed here:

http://www.pewforum.org...
http://www.pewresearch.org...

With that said, it's clear that intellectual honesty isn't the goal here, and rather, that painting the Jews as some type of "bad" group of "others" is instead. So let's take a look at the single piece of evidence provided (the info graphic provided by the poster) and the poster's "translations" as to how he determines that Jews are bad.

#1 Victimhood (the holocaust card)

This is an interesting topic, and one that deserves its very own thread to get into the important aspects of it. There's certainly plenty of intellectually honest ways to discuss it, and I'd be happy to do so.

However, that's not the point here. The info graphic shows that holocaust remembrance is an important thing to Jews and therefore the poster interprets this as the Jews claiming victimhood for whatever reason. I'm sure he can point to motives and examples, though the assertion itself is sufficient here.

In terms of why it's actually important to Jews, and why they are more than happy to publicly admit to it via polling or in interviews, is that contrary to the posters assertion of feigning victimhood, it has far more importance to Jews as the cultural recognition of mortality. Jews, whether they are religious or not (and most aren't) recognize that their culture is at risk of disappearing, and recognizing that fact is of cultural importance to them. Jews recognize they are small in numbers, are often not well liked, and that there is at times, a very real political risk to their well-being. In short, the first step for maintaining their culture, something that is important to secular and religious Jews alike, is accepting the existential threat to it - and the holocaust is just the best and most recent example.

It doesn't have to be something as significant as the example given here though. Many Jews are particularly sensitive (perhaps too much in many cases) to anti-Jewish sentiment. So while holocaust remembrance has become a culturally ingrained reality, it is just the name given to something Jews recognized as manifested in many different ways. That can be significant global political realities, less significant local schisms, or even just some guy on the internet posting something that may seem benign, but is intellectually dishonest Jew hatred poorly masked in any attempt at legitimate intellectual discourse.

The bottom line is that to many Jews, this is very much part of the culture, and that is why 73% of respondents consider holocaust remembrance an important part of what it means to be Jewish. Certainly to many it is specific to one event, but to many it is indicative of a much greater cultural impact relating the existential reality of "being a Jew".

The poster would like to say this is just "victimhood" and whatever else that implies, and I'll refrain from making assumptions, but his intentionally simplistic and intellectually dishonest inclusion on this list entirely misses the point - or rather, it's included only to make the point that "Jews are bad" and it necessarily has to be intellectually dishonest.

#2 Caring for their cows and goys

I don't know what this is, since it's just stated out of nowhere.

The second thing listed in the infographic is "Leading ethical/moral life", and 69% of Jews replied in this way.

I suppose it could be assumed that if the poster posted this response, making the "Jews are bad" case would be more difficult, and therefore he intentionally posted something completely different. So again, anyone thinking there is any attempt at being honest in this post by the poster should dismiss those thoughts now.

#3 Social engineering (attacking freedom and Christian values)

The third thing listed is "working for justice and equality" (56%). It's true that Jews tend to lean towards the liberal wing of politics and if pursuing social equality and justice can be construed as anti-freedom and anti-Christians values, then that is what the poster is asserting I guess.
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 6:19:21 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
#4 Being critical of God and western tradition.

Like #2, this one comes out of nowhere. I suppose the poster could provide evidence of this claim, but I don't see it on the only thing he provided, which is the infographic. Again, this is intellectually dishonest. If the poster would like to start being honest at some point here, they are welcome to start offering evidence for their claims so that a real discussion can take place.

I wont dispute that some Jews are critical of God or Western Tradition, though saying this is "what it means to be a Jew" and that the posters only evidence somehow backs this up is clearly nonsense.

If the poster wants to discuss the Jews and their role and views on "Western tradition" I'd be more than happy to engage that discussion. But as it is, this portion is a mere assertion devoid of anything worth taking seriously at the moment.

#5 Allegiance to Israel.

This is a complicated issue, and a topic (like #1) that deserves its own thread to really get into sufficiently. Similarly, like #1, this is something that can be credited with the existential threat that many Jews feel they face. Whether or not that can possibly justify the existence of Israel is another topic, and what that cultural reality manifests in, in terms of the existence of Israel, is again, another topic that needs to be focused on by itself.

As it is, this mere assertion is that "Jews are bad" because they support Israel to whatever degree. Jews (as a group) "patriotism" towards America (I assume) is being questioned here, and the poster is making the case that since Jews have any support or allegiance to Israel to any degree, that "Jews are bad".

This, like all the arguments (if we can even call them that) are devoid of any intellectual honesty whatsoever, and like everything else is a mere assertion unbacked up with anything.

.....

Since I'm a Jew I might as well relate the "values" on the poll to why I replied here:

Remembering the holocaust: This thread is the type of propaganda that just serves to demonize Jews. I'm not going to get all melodramatic here, but it just takes a few people to get the ball rolling on the Jew hatred and the poster has done his part. It's important to remember the past so that we can avoid a similar future.

Leading an ethical/moral life: This thread is rather unethical since it's entirely dishonest anti-Jew propaganda... might as well do my part to dispel an notion of credibility it might have.

Working for justice/equality: Demeaning this nonsense is justice, and equality will only exist in a world where people don't believe they are free to lie about others for whatever negative agenda they might have. I'm not sure what that agenda is from the poster, but it clearly has something to do with propagandizing against Jews.

Being intellectually curious: I think this is probably the most important one. This type of thread can only gain traction among those who aren't intellectual curious (and furthermore, intellectually honest). I'll concede some of the points can be accepted to some degree by various people, but the overall premise of "Jews are bad" is not acceptable to anyone with the least bit of intellectual curiosity, which will inherently manifest as an assertion that this thread is simply just ridiculous nonsense, or in my case, a desire to actually waste time replying to it, as this moments anti anti-Jew propaganda agent. But more importantly, intellectually curious and honest people, back up their assertions with something, not just random poll data butchered into anti-Jew bullet points. In this case, I don't have the burden of proof, so I'm not going to write a novel for each point and prove how each is wrong, but if the poster is intellectually curious and honest, they can try to back their points up - and I'll be waiting to respond.

Caring about Israel: This isn't going to directly relate, but the fact that in this day and age, someone in what I can assume is the modern world, can write anti-Jew propaganda without any appearance of shame for it (due the extent of how shameless it is( , shows why the Jews have a credible concern for their safety if such people gain traction in popular opinion. It isn't too many steps until the argument posited here goes from "Jews are bad" to "How do we do something about these bad Jews". I'll concede this is a bit of an overly dramatic point.

Having a good sense of humor: Well I think this thread is a joke, but unfortunately the poster wasn't joking. I do think I should have added more humor to my response though... I am shaming my culture a bit with the lack of that... oh well...

The rest of the polling data is more religious oriented and I can't really relate that to rebutting anti-Jew propaganda, so I'll just leave this there then...

....

So to summarize:

The "Jews are bad" point being made here is built upon practically nothing. It is a bunch of mere assertions and extrapolating data that simply isn't here. The poster is just "Translating" polls results into something incoherent at best, and blatantly dishonest at worst.

One of the points I'd like to make is that Jews are an easy target for nonsense being hurled at them (they are neo cons to one side, or communists to the other... religious zealots or atheists etc etc), and it's why the Jewish culture is in some ways, by some who exist within it, cognizant (and perhaps overly paranoid) of attempts to demean and "otherize" them with often ridiculous tropes and assertions that make no sense whatsoever - or rather, assertions that aren't backed up with anything meaningful, coherent, or deserving of credibility - and this thread is a perfect example.

In conclusion, that is what this is. It's simply anti-Jew propaganda that really doesn't deserve anything more than a mere dismissal as the clearly dishonest nonsense that it is. I'm not sure why I replied (since TheG&P correctly stated "This is a wholly dishonest post...."), but I had a free hour and figured why not... so there it is...
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 6:21:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 12:42:46 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

Do you have a plastic badge to go along with playing PC cop? You should really feel bad for not being able to respond to what I posted.

I don't believe that being PC is all that important... an argument can be made sufficiently or not - and in the case of this thread so far, no point has sufficiently been made... I just replied, and I look forward to your response.
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 6:22:10 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 6:30:23 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Really?

As if the atheist trolls on here weren't bad enough...


Besides everyone knows being Jewish is about Matzah balls...

haha that's just one of the perks I guess
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 6:42:16 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:35:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


As far as I am able to work it out being a Jew requires one to:

Well I'll give you credit that you are going to view this from the lens of a Christian who has a negative view of Jewish rejection of Jesus, rather than just base anti-Jewish sentiments like the OP appears to have (though it likely manifests from that... but who knows)

That said, unlike the OP, the following actually provides something to debate over, so it is much more interesting...

1: Ignore messianic prophecies

I don't believe a difference of interpretation should be construed as "ignoring" them. I'm very familiar with what the OT says, and I don't believe it's irrational to believe that messianic prophecies haven't been fulfilled. We can certainly discuss specifics if you like.

2: Pretend what Messianic prophecies you can find haven't been fulfilled at the time they were foretold to

As an extension of the above, again, this is a matter of a difference of interpretation. I realize this is an endless argument and one that Christians will be having with Jews forever, but I think you are going down a path of oversimplifying things here.

3: claim that prophecies abut the Messiah not dues for fulfilment have failed when really they simple aren't due yet.

Again, a difference of interpretation.

4: ignore the vast majority of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell them about their God.

This would depend on which Jews you are talking about.

5: Going round bemoaning the fact that their God apparently abandoned them without ever asking themselves why he did exactly as he had promised to.

The majority of Jews certainly don't do this, since most are completely apathetic. If you are talking about religious Jews, then they certainly don't since they are very much dedicated to their religion/god.

6: Pretend to follow a Law Code which it is now impossible for them to actually follow ever since shortly after it ceased to be a Law Code rather than the collection of principles it now is.

yeah, those crazy Jews... but again, this is interpretive and requires a lot more depth than I'll get into here.

At least that is what their own scriptures tell me it takes.

Well some biblical and rabbinical sources say all it takes to be a Jew is a mother that is Jewish... If we are talking about what it means to be a Jew, I suppose some Christians will say, as you have said, that it is mere rejection of Jesus as the messiah. I think that kind of misses the point though. Jews don't define themselves in terms of what they are lacking by what other religions have co-opted from them.

In any case, I don't care to debate the validity of Christianity or Judaism (though I might be willing to). What it means to be a Jew will likely be different to every Jew... What it means to be a Jew to other people, like Christians or the OP is something I doubt very many Jews care the least about. All I care about is that anti-Jew sentiment doesn't go unchallenged, whether that be the type of overt anti Jew sentiment expressed by the OP, or what I think you might edge close to in the anti-Jew sentiment defined by rejection of your particular beliefs.
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

But no worries... I'll review my shares of Hollywood, the banks, and the media to make me feel better about it...
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airmax1227
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5/7/2016 7:06:31 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:07:58 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:35:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
As far as I am able to work it out being a Jew requires one to:

1: Ignore messianic prophecies
2: Pretend what Messianic prophecies you can find haven't been fulfilled at the time they were foretold to
3: claim that prophecies abut the Messiah not dues for fulfilment have failed when really they simple aren't due yet.
4: ignore the vast majority of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell them about their God.
5: Going round bemoaning the fact that their God apparently abandoned them without ever asking themselves why he did exactly as he had promised to.
6: Pretend to follow a Law Code which it is now impossible for them to actually follow ever since shortly after it ceased to be a Law Code rather than the collection of principles it now is.

At least that is what their own scriptures tell me it takes.

The Jews' own scripture is the Talmud (Christians, Muslims, and Jews all claim the Old Testament as scripture, separately we have the New Testament, Koran, and Talmud, respectively). The Talmud, like the Koran, was written down centuries after Jesus, but Jews consider it to be as scriptural (to the degree they believe in divine inspiration).

Jews don't consider the Talmud to be the same as the OT in terms of divinity. Jews (and let's assume from this point forward if I'm attributing belief to Jews, I'm assuming they are religious) believe the OT is directly from god, but that the Talmud is a collection of the discussions of the oral law (given from god) contained in the mishna, which culminates in the enumeration on such, that makes up the Talmud. The talmud might be venerated to whatever degree, but it's not a holy book to the extent of the OT, NT, or Koran.

From the Christian perspective, Jews do ignore messianic prophecies. Jesus said the unbelieving Jews didn't believe Moses and the prophets.

Jews certainly don't believe Jesus is the messiah (or any of the numbers of others that came before and after and claimed to be the messiah), so this is certainly the case.

Biblical Jews became Christians. Post-Jesus Jews are Talmudists. Their scripture denies that Jesus is the messiah. It says Jesus is in H3ll, in boiling semen. (http://www.come-and-hear.com...)

Yeah, there's a lot of weird stuff... but it's definitely true that Jews deny any divinity of Jesus and certain Jewish texts point this out.

So then, it's no longer an issue of Jews ignoring messianic prophecy. It's a matter of their scriptures teaching that Jesus isn't the Messiah. It's just like Muslims deny Jesus died because the Korean says Jesus didn't die, but it was only made to appear that Jesus died on the cross.

Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, and neither do Muslims... Christians do, that's what makes them Christians... what exactly is the big revelation here?
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MadCornishBiker
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5/7/2016 10:29:01 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

No you are right it was uncalled for.

However unfortunately it remains true, especially in God's eyes.

Think about this:

Their own prophecies are full of promises, all conditional on faithfulness.

As Jesus pointed out to them they were given repeated chances to remain in / return to Jehovah's favour, numerous prophets were sent to them to encourage / warn them.

Jesus described it thoroughly in his illustration of the Vineyard, which the religious leaders understood and took note of.

Matthew 21:33-46
33 "Hear another illustration: There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower; then he leased it to cultivators and traveled abroad. 34 When the fruit season came around, he sent his slaves to the cultivators to collect his fruit. 35 However, the cultivators took his slaves, and they beat one up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36 Again he sent other slaves, more than the first group, but they did the same to these. 37 Lastly he sent his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." 38 On seeing the son, the cultivators said among themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!" 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?" 41 They said to him: "Because they are evil, he will bring a terrible destruction on them and will lease the vineyard to other cultivators, who will give him the fruits when they become due."
42 Jesus said to them: "Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling on this stone will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls, it will crush him."
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his illustrations, they knew that he was speaking about them. 46 Although they wanted to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these regarded him as a prophet.

List of characters:

The Landowner - Jehovah.
The Vineyard - Israel.
The fruits - The people of Israel
The Cultivators - The religious leaders.
The slaves - The prophets
The son - Jehovah's only begotten son incarnate in the flesh of Jesus.

Notice the progression.

However that illustration also raises a very important question. Read verse 41 again.
Who is that "New Nation"?

Basically the Jews were now on their final warning, Israel was no longer to be the favoured nation, Jehovah's own nation as it had been in the past.

Paul gives a good and detailed explanation in Hebrews, but the only time that "New Nation" are actually named is in Galatians 6:16 where they are called "the Israel of God". A new nation indeed, with it's King in the heavens, Christ, and subjects on earth, the Apostles and all the brothers and sisters.

As Paul explained, though Jehovah abandoned the nation of Israel he did not abandon those who wished to remain "seed of Abraham" and the New Nation was built on and around them. They were also given the first chance to join with Jesus concentrating on them and the Apostles also at first.

However the Global aspect was started with the inclusion of the Samaritans and the first Gentiles.

They even had a human "Governing Body", the Apostles and Older Men at Jerusalem" who were consulted when there were disputes and worked to maintain unity of teachings.

Sound familiar?

It should.

Unfortunately that "New Nation" also proved unfaithful by the end of the 1st century, and far from being "no part of this world" they became, slowly but surely, fully involved in it, as scripture puts it "fornicating with the Kings of the earth", hence Revelation calls them "the harlot" and Babylon the Great".

That situation was allowed to continue until the time eventually arrived when Jehovah again needed a people to spread the "Good News of the Kingdom" that his son had started spreading, and this time to spread it throughout the globe so that all people could be warned and offered the only way out.

Not without good reason did Christ liken these times to the "Days of Noah", they are similar in that few are listening and that soon all who refuse to listen will be destroyed. (Luke 17:26-30).

And despite the testimony of their own scriptures, the Jews still aren't listening.

They still want what they want, not what their God offered them. It is as if they think that they know better than Jehovah himself! That is why, as a group, they are and will remain a joke for as long as they exist.

They are the one group on this earth who have absolutely zero excuse to reject Jehovah's offer. They have the scriptures. They learn the scriptures, But still they ignore those very scriptures message taking from them only what they want.

Jehovah arranged for their temple to be destroyed so they can't keep the Law they cling to even if they wanted to.

When they didn't take the hint he arranged for the Dome on the Rock to be built to underscore his message.

Still they cannot accept their error,

Unfortunately they are far from alone in that.

The majority of people follow exactly the same course, though without teh history of the Jews to rub the message in.

However I don't mind when people ridicule me as long as they don't get too crude about it. Sometimes I can even use it to Jehovah's advantage

It doesn't bother me because all are welcome to their opinions

But no worries... I'll review my shares of Hollywood, the banks, and the media to make me feel better about it...

Lol, money is a comfort, but for how much longer?

Scripture gives the only real, guaranteed, and eternally lasting comfort.

All the best, and thanks for the gentle nature of the reprimand. Thoroughly warranted.
MadCornishBiker
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5/7/2016 10:41:39 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:42:16 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:35:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


As far as I am able to work it out being a Jew requires one to:

Well I'll give you credit that you are going to view this from the lens of a Christian who has a negative view of Jewish rejection of Jesus, rather than just base anti-Jewish sentiments like the OP appears to have (though it likely manifests from that... but who knows)

That said, unlike the OP, the following actually provides something to debate over, so it is much more interesting...

1: Ignore messianic prophecies

I don't believe a difference of interpretation should be construed as "ignoring" them. I'm very familiar with what the OT says, and I don't believe it's irrational to believe that messianic prophecies haven't been fulfilled. We can certainly discuss specifics if you like.

2: Pretend what Messianic prophecies you can find haven't been fulfilled at the time they were foretold to

As an extension of the above, again, this is a matter of a difference of interpretation. I realize this is an endless argument and one that Christians will be having with Jews forever, but I think you are going down a path of oversimplifying things here.

3: claim that prophecies abut the Messiah not dues for fulfilment have failed when really they simple aren't due yet.

Again, a difference of interpretation.

4: ignore the vast majority of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell them about their God.

This would depend on which Jews you are talking about.

Not really, the different groups just ignore different bits and in different ways.


5: Going round bemoaning the fact that their God apparently abandoned them without ever asking themselves why he did exactly as he had promised to.

The majority of Jews certainly don't do this, since most are completely apathetic. If you are talking about religious Jews, then they certainly don't since they are very much dedicated to their religion/god.

Yes, there is a difference between Jews as a tribe / nation, and Jews as a religion.

Unfortunately they do rather blur the boundaries themselves to a very great extent.


6: Pretend to follow a Law Code which it is now impossible for them to actually follow ever since shortly after it ceased to be a Law Code rather than the collection of principles it now is.

yeah, those crazy Jews... but again, this is interpretive and requires a lot more depth than I'll get into here.

True it is a good subject for debate, but without the Temple they simply cannot obey the laws on sacrifices which were commanded only to be made at the Temple.


At least that is what their own scriptures tell me it takes.

Well some biblical and rabbinical sources say all it takes to be a Jew is a mother that is Jewish... If we are talking about what it means to be a Jew, I suppose some Christians will say, as you have said, that it is mere rejection of Jesus as the messiah. I think that kind of misses the point though. Jews don't define themselves in terms of what they are lacking by what other religions have co-opted from them.

That is certainly all it takes to be a secular Jew. However the rules for being a religious Jews are laid out in scripture and distorted by human thinking in the Talmud.

That really is all the Talmud is in effect. It is religious Jews saying "We cannot do what we really should, don;t want to take the alternative route, what can we do to persuade Jehovah that we are still acceptable.

It is exactly the same in Christendom where the vast majority take what they want from scripture but discard the rest.

You cannot do that with Jehovah's word. It truly is "all or nothing". Hence his rejection of the corrupted translations.

No that isn't how they see it, but I can guarantee you that is how Jehovah sees it.


In any case, I don't care to debate the validity of Christianity or Judaism (though I might be willing to). What it means to be a Jew will likely be different to every Jew... What it means to be a Jew to other people, like Christians or the OP is something I doubt very many Jews care the least about. All I care about is that anti-Jew sentiment doesn't go unchallenged, whether that be the type of overt anti Jew sentiment expressed by the OP, or what I think you might edge close to in the anti-Jew sentiment defined by rejection of your particular beliefs.

Yes well, I see everything from Jehovah's viewpoint.

I can't see any sense in looking at things any other way.

When you sit an exam, who do you try to please with yur answers?

Yourself?

Or the examiner?

Jehovah has authored the textbook - The Bible.

He has appointed his examiner - Christ.
In the end there will only be two questions.

Did you listen?

Did you act on it?

It is that simple.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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5/7/2016 11:10:37 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

But no worries... I'll review my shares of Hollywood, the banks, and the media to make me feel better about it...

Just finished half reading your response to the topic.
As your a newbie , and before I insta mute you. I'll offer you some advice.
A little less talky talky, And a bit more abusie busie. I mean you didn't even abuse his mom. Ya best Go back to your debate .org forum. And squabble with the elite. Over he said she said nonsense.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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5/7/2016 11:12:06 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

But no worries... I'll review my shares of Hollywood, the banks, and the media to make me feel better about it...

Did I go to far .
Sorry boss.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/7/2016 3:36:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:19:17 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Christians are good. Jews are bad.

Jesus said to the Jews, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil."

As mentioned above, the following is going to be an intentional misinterpretation of the information in a way to spin the results in any way that can frame the Jews as somehow bad.

Yeah, just like people try to frame Hitler as somehow bad. Oh please, please, quote the Talmud where it is relevant to these top points of being a Jew. Of course, you won't do that, because of who really is being dishonest. You wish I quote their Talmud?

In terms of why [the alleged and irrelevant Holocaust is] actually important to Jews, and why they are more than happy to publicly admit to it via polling or in interviews, is that contrary to the posters assertion of feigning victimhood, it has far more importance to Jews as the cultural recognition of mortality. Jews, whether they are religious or not (and most aren't) recognize that their culture is at risk of disappearing, and recognizing that fact is of cultural importance to them. Jews recognize they are small in numbers, are often not well liked, and that there is at times, a very real political risk to their well-being.

You deny Jews place the Holocaust at #1 of what it means to be a Jew out of playing the victim, because they really are victims? (Actually, hating Jesus is #1 of what it means to be a Jew). Sorry, what's the difference between your claim they fear being victims and playing the victim?

The second thing listed in the infographic is "Leading ethical/moral life", and 69% of Jews replied in this way.

Isn't an ethical/more life related to how they treat their animals? Bernie Sanders wants to make sure we all are provide medical care, just like an ethical cattle rancher seeing to it that his cows have medical care.

The third thing listed is "working for justice and equality" (56%). It's true that Jews tend to lean towards the liberal wing of politics and if pursuing social equality and justice can be construed as anti-freedom and anti-Christians values, then that is what the poster is asserting I guess.

Yeah, the Leftist fetish for anti-consent (anti-discrimination) laws does seem a bit anti-freedom. And, their demands that the government impose religious tests on people and institutions for the purpose of the government discriminating against them does seem a bit anti-Christian.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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5/7/2016 5:01:06 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 10:29:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

No you are right it was uncalled for.

However unfortunately it remains true, especially in God's eyes.

Think about this:

I appreciate you going into depth on explaining it, but it's based entirely on premises that I'm not going to agree with. So fair enough, I can at least respect that you will take the time to explain it... So you think Jews are foolish, and that's fine.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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5/7/2016 5:02:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 11:10:37 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:47:42 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:36:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2016 6:14:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
This is a wholly dishonest post. You should feel bad for posting it.

I don't see why, it is only a joke, just like Jews are.

aww that's not nice... as someone who is kind of on the fringe of their broader religious beliefs (in terms of popularity and acceptance to whatever degree that matters), I figured you might be more sensitive to being called "a joke".

But no worries... I'll review my shares of Hollywood, the banks, and the media to make me feel better about it...


Just finished half reading your response to the topic.
As your a newbie , and before I insta mute you. I'll offer you some advice.
A little less talky talky, And a bit more abusie busie. I mean you didn't even abuse his mom. Ya best Go back to your debate .org forum. And squabble with the elite. Over he said she said nonsense.

haha alright, thanks for the advice
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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5/7/2016 6:02:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 3:36:39 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:19:17 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Christians are good. Jews are bad.

Jesus said to the Jews, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil."

Yeah I get it, the Jews are bad. Quoting Jesus isn't exactly going to prove it to anyone who doesn't already believe in the divinity of Jesus (or that wants to dislike the Jews for whatever reason) but I recognize that you believe the Jews are bad, and you are using Christianity to justify that - at least with the case made above. This isn't something I'm unaware of. Thankfully, Christianity has mostly moved away from the anti-Jew thing it could once be characterized with, and most espousing your views aren't taken too seriously in society.

As mentioned above, the following is going to be an intentional misinterpretation of the information in a way to spin the results in any way that can frame the Jews as somehow bad.

Yeah, just like people try to frame Hitler as somehow bad.

Yeah, it's just amazing that somehow people could have the view that Hitler is bad... I do appreciate that you've made it clear the perspective you are taking though.

Oh please, please, quote the Talmud where it is relevant to these top points of being a Jew. Of course, you won't do that, because of who really is being dishonest. You wish I quote their Talmud?

I don't understand how this follows at all. So Hitler is good, because the Talmud says some ridiculous and archaic things?

In terms of why [the alleged and irrelevant Holocaust is] actually important to Jews, and why they are more than happy to publicly admit to it via polling or in interviews, is that contrary to the posters assertion of feigning victimhood, it has far more importance to Jews as the cultural recognition of mortality. Jews, whether they are religious or not (and most aren't) recognize that their culture is at risk of disappearing, and recognizing that fact is of cultural importance to them. Jews recognize they are small in numbers, are often not well liked, and that there is at times, a very real political risk to their well-being.

You deny Jews place the Holocaust at #1 of what it means to be a Jew out of playing the victim, because they really are victims?

Yeah, I'd argue that most don't simply reply with "holocaust remembrance" because victimhood is important to them. Partly it is because they have been victims, and this is obviously why it is important, but it's not so much about past victimhood, but avoiding future victimhood. The distinction here is important because the former seems to imply a desire by Jews to extort society, while the latter is about cultural survival and the implication that Jews consider that important.

(Actually, hating Jesus is #1 of what it means to be a Jew).

I suppose this explains why you hate Jews, and it further articulates the issue Christianity has had with the existence of Jews historically - but it doesn't really make a lot of sense. Most (if not nearly all) Jews don't hate Jesus. Why would I, or any other Jew, invest any emotion into an historical figure that we largely disregard? In other words, it's perfectly fine that Christians consider Jesus the messiah and divine to whatever degree, this doesn't effect me in the least, so why would I hate Jesus? As long as you aren't trying to murder me or propagandize against me in Jesus name (which has far more to do with you (or whoever is doing it) than Jesus - who likely wouldn't approve), I'm completely indifferent to Jesus, and it would make no more sense for me to hate him, as some guy I don't know in some random place in the world.

It is true that not accepting other religions is part of being a Jew. So yes, Jews reject Jesus (they don't hate him) because they already have their own religion. I'm sorry I don't believe in your religion or your religious figures... I guess you'll have to hate me now.

Sorry, what's the difference between your claim they fear being victims and playing the victim?

As I mentioned above, your implication seems to be that Jews play the victim to extort society, and I'm clarifying that the reason the poll resultsin the way it does isn't because of this spin you'd like to put on it, but because Jews recognize the precarious position they are in. Obviously the Jews are justified in their concern because you, and others like you (however few you might be) can easily justify hate of Jews (and take that to its logical conclusion) with rationalizations for any hate directed at Jews.

I'll just add that some might have a hard time believing that there is a straight line from Christianity to the holocaust, and they should have a few conversations with you to understand why that is in fact the case. I don't personally care since Christianity is almost entirely benign these days, so I have nothing against Christianity, but it's worth noting for an historical perspective.

The second thing listed in the infographic is "Leading ethical/moral life", and 69% of Jews replied in this way.

Isn't an ethical/more life related to how they treat their animals? Bernie Sanders wants to make sure we all are provide medical care, just like an ethical cattle rancher seeing to it that his cows have medical care.

Sure, but your spin was intentionally dishonest, and there's no way to extrapolate that specifically from the data provided. But fine, the Jews want to make sure people have medical care... how dare they... I'm not a Bernie supporter, so I'm not going to argue in favor of his positions, but this argument, the Jews are ethical, but spinning it to be something bad, is quite the stretch.

The third thing listed is "working for justice and equality" (56%). It's true that Jews tend to lean towards the liberal wing of politics and if pursuing social equality and justice can be construed as anti-freedom and anti-Christians values, then that is what the poster is asserting I guess.

Yeah, the Leftist fetish for anti-consent (anti-discrimination) laws does seem a bit anti-freedom.

There are always going to be some people in every group that do things that are disagreeable to someone.

And, their demands that the government impose religious tests on people and institutions for the purpose of the government discriminating against them does seem a bit anti-Christian.

I don't believe many Jews actually believe in this, and if you have data that says otherwise, please share it with me.

Anyways, it's clear that you don't like Jews... and that's fine, but you haven't provided anything honest or coherent enough in making the case that anyone should take whatever you have said seriously.
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